Westerners waiing to Thais.Why would you?

[bazza40]

The Japanese have NO expectations that westerners will have any idea 'how to bow correctly.' But they do appreciate the fact that they try.

I have a feeling that the Thais feel the same way. When we farang speak Thai and use the wrong tones, the Thais don't laugh at us. They don't expect us to know the correct tones and give us a bit more leeway in our speech. They most certainly DO appreciate the fact that we try to speak to them in their own language.

IMHO it's basically impossible for a falang to speak Thai with correct tones, unless they have been brought up with Thai from infancy. Just as Thais trip over our combined consonants in English.

My Thai GF was trying to explain the tone difference between Ngoo ( mouse ) and Ngoo ( snake ). While I could hear the difference in tone, my vocal chords could not reproduce it.

It gets even worse in her village, where many seem to speak in grunts.

My teerak will hug and kiss me in private. In public is a big no-no. Her family wais me, and I wai back.

[Mark123456]

I return wais. Why? Because I don't like to be rude. Ignoring a wai, in my opinion at least, would be akin to ignoring the outstretched hand of a Westerner who I had just met.

I can think of dozens of things that foreigners do in Thailand that make me cringe but waiing is not one of them.

Returning and initiating, two totally different subjects.

I never initiate (they are not my lord), I rarely return (I am not their serf).

Happy to wave my hand at them. Good enough for a foreigner, I think.

Your post makes no sense - how does returning a wai make you socially inferior?

The people who say they cringe when they see foreigners returning wais to waiting staff, children etcetera sound extremely pretentious and obviously still don't understand the nuances of waiing. I'm not going to pretend that I do either but I have seen well-to-do Thai people returning the wais of children (I was told they do it because they are trying to reward the children as they learn how to wai) and I've seen my gf return a wai to a supermarket cashier on the odd occasion. Admittedly I have only seen her do this 2 or 3 times in 10 years but when I asked her why she chose to do it on one occasion, she basically told me it's up to the individual and she felt like doing it, or words to that effect.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Mark123456

[villagefarang]

The Japanese have NO expectations that westerners will have any idea 'how to bow correctly.' But they do appreciate the fact that they try.

I have a feeling that the Thais feel the same way. When we farang speak Thai and use the wrong tones, the Thais don't laugh at us. They don't expect us to know the correct tones and give us a bit more leeway in our speech. They most certainly DO appreciate the fact that we try to speak to them in their own language.

IMHO it's basically impossible for a falang to speak Thai with correct tones, unless they have been brought up with Thai from infancy. Just as Thais trip over our combined consonants in English.

My Thai GF was trying to explain the tone difference between Ngoo ( mouse ) and Ngoo ( snake ). While I could hear the difference in tone, my vocal chords could not reproduce it.

It gets even worse in her village, where many seem to speak in grunts.

My teerak will hug and kiss me in private. In public is a big no-no. Her family wais me, and I wai back.

Mouse is only an N (Noo) not Ng if you are interested. More modern Thais are not as easily upset by discreet public display of affection and we have friends who hug if we haven’t seen each other for a while.

Often foreigners are looking for absolutes and black or white answers to ease their confusion. Life just isn’t that simple and when blending cultures things become even more interesting. I think we should embrace the differences, learn from them and allow them to broaden our life experience.

Edited May 26, 2016 by villagefarang

[FolkGuitar]

If the Pope can wash feet, you can return a wai...

[bazza40]

The Japanese have NO expectations that westerners will have any idea 'how to bow correctly.' But they do appreciate the fact that they try.

I have a feeling that the Thais feel the same way. When we farang speak Thai and use the wrong tones, the Thais don't laugh at us. They don't expect us to know the correct tones and give us a bit more leeway in our speech. They most certainly DO appreciate the fact that we try to speak to them in their own language.

IMHO it's basically impossible for a falang to speak Thai with correct tones, unless they have been brought up with Thai from infancy. Just as Thais trip over our combined consonants in English.

My Thai GF was trying to explain the tone difference between Ngoo ( mouse ) and Ngoo ( snake ). While I could hear the difference in tone, my vocal chords could not reproduce it.

It gets even worse in her village, where many seem to speak in grunts.

My teerak will hug and kiss me in private. In public is a big no-no. Her family wais me, and I wai back.

Mouse is only an N (Noo) not Ng if you are interested. More modern Thais are not as easily upset by discreet public display of affection and we have friends who hug if we haven’t seen each other for a while.

Often foreigners are looking for absolutes and black or white answers to ease their confusion. Life just isn’t that simple and when blending cultures things become even more interesting. I think we should embrace the differences, learn from them and allow them to broaden our life experience.

If you ask a Thai how to spell a word in Thai using the Roman alphabet, their response will usually be " How do you want me to spell it?" Frequently one will find the spelling of a street name in the Roman alphabet changes on signs from one end of the street to the other. Permit me to doubt your expertise in this area.

[bazza40]

If the Pope can wash feet, you can return a wai...

This week's award for a non sequitur goes to.....

[thai3]

I used to but now I see it as supporting an outdated hierarchical feudal system, so now just wave back. I hate it when adults nag little kids to do it to me, needs to stop. I try not to speak Thai either, they never understand anyway, tones are another thing they need to get rid of.

Edited May 26, 2016 by thai3

[garryjohns]

If the Pope can wash feet, you can return a wai...

This week's award for a non sequitur goes to.....

vos sunt et vera

Yes indeed,how bizarre!

[JaseTheBass]

I only wai my wife's grandmother.

Sent from my R2D2 using my C3P0 manservant

Edited May 26, 2016 by JaseTheBass

[FolkGuitar]

If the Pope can wash feet, you can return a wai...

This week's award for a non sequitur goes to.....

This week's award for a non sequitur goes to.....

vos sunt et vera

Yes indeed,how bizarre!

I'm sorry that you didn't understand the relationship. But I'm not surprised that it was the two of you who did not.

[northernjohn]

I used to but now I see it as supporting an outdated hierarchical feudal system, so now just wave back. I hate it when adults nag little kids to do it to me, needs to stop. I try not to speak Thai either, they never understand anyway, tones are another thing they need to get rid of.

Nothing personal but why do you feel Thai's should change their culture? It is a very nice one. In case you haven't noticed you are living in it and not the one you came from. I am from North America and fully aware of the fact that respect doesn't mean much there. Here it does and darned if I will try to drag it down.

I myself would never move to a culture that I thought was as low as you think the Thai culture is.

[brewsterbudgen]

I wai my wife's grandmother.

Sent from my R2D2 using my C3P0 manservant

As you should.

[siamcrut]

In daily life I gave up the wai long time. If I really have to, I place my hands just in front my sternum, that's as high as it gets.

[rogeroc]

This thread has confirmed my 2 thoughts about the wai.

1) It is about class, profession, age

2) Thais do not expect a Westerner to Wai back

As has been said in a few Posts i will treat a waiter or a bar girl or a tuk tuk driver with equal courtesy as i would a school teacher or doctor. I will not perpetuate this superior / inferior ritual when the local population do not even expect me to.

If Thai culture dictates i am not supposed to wai a bargirl or waiter then i am certainly not going to wai anyone else.

[Bung]

Same as a handshake. Ignoring one is rude anywhere. Everyone knows that. Thais have no problem with any returned wai, they see tourists all the time. They smile regardless as they know it's not a western thing.

Its quite simple to learn correct waiing if you care to, 4 position - chest, chin, nose and forehead but I never go the forehead, that's for if your getting killed or deported. Monks(only if their involved, if they're laying around a temple with their hand out they get nothing) in laws and special occasions I go the eyebrows. A little bit special.

Do what you want, the locals couldn't care less.

Edit* I never go the chest wai either, it's lame. Just wai kids normally, who cares if it's too much?

Edited May 26, 2016 by Bung

[rogeroc]

But with a handshake you do with all and not just because someone has a higher status. I agree not returning a handshake can be considered rude but my point was that Thais are not offended if a Wai is not returned.

If the Wai was not about status i would prefer it to a handshake (why should i feel obliged to shake someone's hand) and i like that the Thais do not expect visitors to their country to use it.

[hawker9000]

Nothing wrong with wai'ing, if you're comfortable doing it. I've seen westerners wai'ing everything that moves, and that's kind o' funny, and I know Thais think so too. But they'll never openly laugh at you, it's not a crime or major faux pas, and I've never ever heard of a wai actually giving offense or inciting anger. I routinely wai Thai friends and acquaintances and those they might be introducing me to, but not usually service folks or shop/store sales people, or children. (But for every rule there can be exceptions of course.)

[Mark123456]

The Japanese have NO expectations that westerners will have any idea 'how to bow correctly.' But they do appreciate the fact that they try.

I have a feeling that the Thais feel the same way. When we farang speak Thai and use the wrong tones, the Thais don't laugh at us. They don't expect us to know the correct tones and give us a bit more leeway in our speech. They most certainly DO appreciate the fact that we try to speak to them in their own language.

IMHO it's basically impossible for a falang to speak Thai with correct tones, unless they have been brought up with Thai from infancy. Just as Thais trip over our combined consonants in English.

My Thai GF was trying to explain the tone difference between Ngoo ( mouse ) and Ngoo ( snake ). While I could hear the difference in tone, my vocal chords could not reproduce it.

It gets even worse in her village, where many seem to speak in grunts.

My teerak will hug and kiss me in private. In public is a big no-no. Her family wais me, and I wai back.

Mouse is only an N (Noo) not Ng if you are interested. More modern Thais are not as easily upset by discreet public display of affection and we have friends who hug if we haven’t seen each other for a while.

Often foreigners are looking for absolutes and black or white answers to ease their confusion. Life just isn’t that simple and when blending cultures things become even more interesting. I think we should embrace the differences, learn from them and allow them to broaden our life experience.

If you ask a Thai how to spell a word in Thai using the Roman alphabet, their response will usually be " How do you want me to spell it?" Frequently one will find the spelling of a street name in the Roman alphabet changes on signs from one end of the street to the other. Permit me to doubt your expertise in this area.

He's trying to tell you that the two words you mentioned start with two completely different consonants. One is similar to the ng sound in English and one to n. Thai people may transliterate certain words differently but I have never seen a different transliteration of those two consonants, they are always represented by those letters. If you can't tell that those two words start with different letters when you hear them spoken it's not surprising that you find the tones impossible to reproduce but it's perfectly possible for Westerners to reproduce Thai tones accurately, you don't need to have been brought up speaking the language. It's also easy to teach a Thai person how to pronounce English consonant clusters if you have a little patience.

[dcnx]

I once saw an elderly Japanese couple inside a 7-11 giving a wai to everyone in the store, one at a time, as they walked about. It was cute. They would stop and give a big wai to each person and then move in.

I was out of there before them, but I assume it took them ages to get down the street, one wai after another.

Edited May 26, 2016 by dcnx

[WinnieTheKhwai]

IMHO it's basically impossible for a falang to speak Thai with correct tones, unless they have been brought up with Thai from infancy. Just as Thais trip over our combined consonants in English.

My Thai GF was trying to explain the tone difference between Ngoo ( mouse ) and Ngoo ( snake ). While I could hear the difference in tone, my vocal chords could not reproduce it.

It gets even worse in her village, where many seem to speak in grunts.

My teerak will hug and kiss me in private. In public is a big no-no. Her family wais me, and I wai back.

Mouse is only an N (Noo) not Ng if you are interested. More modern Thais are not as easily upset by discreet public display of affection and we have friends who hug if we haven’t seen each other for a while.

Often foreigners are looking for absolutes and black or white answers to ease their confusion. Life just isn’t that simple and when blending cultures things become even more interesting. I think we should embrace the differences, learn from them and allow them to broaden our life experience.

If you ask a Thai how to spell a word in Thai using the Roman alphabet, their response will usually be " How do you want me to spell it?" Frequently one will find the spelling of a street name in the Roman alphabet changes on signs from one end of the street to the other. Permit me to doubt your expertise in this area.

While the side-track about road names and transliterations is true, in this case he's completely right; you would never spell the word for mous with ng. Another thing is that you seemed to be looking for a difference in tone only, but it's also a completely different consonant at the start (n vs ng, the latter being a distinct consonant in many languages, just not in English) and then the tone is very different too of course.

And then furthermore, why would a farang 'never' be able to learn that? THere are plenty Thais who speak perfect English. (Slight accent is permitted: even within the British isles there is considerable difference in pronunciation.)

And back on topic, the Stickman article was ridiculous, as if Thais have some magical ability to grasp this social concept and Westerners can't hope to achieve that. That may apply to his audience of two week sex tourists, but for everyone else who spends a couple decades here they end up teaching their children about when to wai.

It's not rocket science, nor is it crucial to get it 100% spot on every time, and there will always be a gray area that shouldn't really be worried about.

[daoyai]

This thread has confirmed my 2 thoughts about the wai.

1) It is about class, profession, age

2) Thais do not expect a Westerner to Wai back

As has been said in a few Posts i will treat a waiter or a bar girl or a tuk tuk driver with equal courtesy as i would a school teacher or doctor. I will not perpetuate this superior / inferior ritual when the local population do not even expect me to.

If Thai culture dictates i am not supposed to wai a bargirl or waiter then i am certainly not going to wai anyone else.

TVF makes my head spin...

simple, waiters, greeters and BGs usually give a welcome or greeting wai to customers, if you are a regular and have developed a relationship with them, it is a friend wai and can be returned. It is not complicated.

[rogeroc]

If that really is the case and it is not about status then i have no problem with it atall. Better than a handshake, which is often abused as more than just a greeting or farewell.

[gemguy]

In theory a person can and will Wai another person of recognized social status.

You would want to first Wai a police officer when you enter a police station.

You would first Wai a doctor

You would first Wai a government official at say the immigration office.

You would first Wai the parents of your Thai wife or GF.

You would first Wai the Thai owner of a company you are doing business with

On the other hand you would not "First Wai" a bar girl or worker in a department store or a clerk or secretary or the door man or the maids ......But...when they Wai you, then you can decide if you will return the Wai depending on the circumstances while usually a returned Wai is performed out of courtesy....but not absolutely necessary.

Children will Wai adults while the adults are not required to Wai back...but most will as a matter of routine.

The Wai is a greeting but also a recognition of social status and historically meant to affirm ones hierarchical status in society .

You will also note there are 3 levels of Wais seen performed.

A simple and quick Wai to the chin

A more significant Wai to the nose area and held for a little longer

A head bowing Wai where the clasped hands are held to the forehead and held deliberately for several seconds.

If you watch important Thai ceremonial affairs you will see the 3 levels of Wai practiced.

Up to you if you Wai or not, as the Thais understand it is not your custom but it is nice to recognize when it should be practiced and upon whom it should be practiced.

Cheers

Edited May 27, 2016 by gemguy

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So yeah, the gas station girl just waied me. Which she did when she recognized me as I've chatted with her before, she's a funny girl.

So it was a greeting scenario, not a 'corporate' wai after receiving money, so I wai back.

(I like her, it's a polite thing to do, and I don't feel the need to project social status every step of my life.)

Edited May 27, 2016 by WinnieTheKhwai

[daoyai]

^^^ except that a police officer does not have a higher social status, (to me) nor does a doctor, an Imm. officer or a business associate.... so no wais for them, unless they wai me first.

[SoiBiker]

^^^ except that a police officer does not have a higher social status, (to me) nor does a doctor, an Imm. officer or a business associate.... so no wais for them, unless they wai me first.

I just waied you before replying.

Am I getting this right?

[daoyai]

Part of the beauty of being an expat here is we are free to adopt or not any cultural aspect we choose and reject those we see as obsurd, it is about finding a balance. Personally I use the wai as a greeting for Thai friends that I know are into it, (as well as cool old folks, they seem to like it) many just say hi or shake hands , some even hug, some do all three. I never use it as a status thing, I am not in that game, I do not automaticly wai a dude in a uniform because he has lots of ornamentation or some random monk. I do not grovel or attempt to curry favor from beurocrats. I enjoy speaking polite Thai to any local that is polite to me and respect that we are all in this boat together. I am not bound by culture and can go local OR full farang at my discretion. ... we can be cultural chameleons !

[Trujillo]

So yeah, the gas station girl just waied me. Which she did when she recognized me as I've chatted with her before, she's a funny girl.

So it was a greeting scenario, not a 'corporate' wai after receiving money, so I wai back.

Wai the gas pump jockey? Unless you are trying to score with her, why on earth would you do that? Do you wai the garbage pick-up man?

[bazza40]

This week's award for a non sequitur goes to.....

vos sunt et vera

Yes indeed,how bizarre!

I'm sorry that you didn't understand the relationship. But I'm not surprised that it was the two of you who did not.

And I'm sorry you have to resort to childish put-downs. However, I suppose that is preferable to having to explain your thinking in detail.

[northernjohn]

But with a handshake you do with all and not just because someone has a higher status. I agree not returning a handshake can be considered rude but my point was that Thais are not offended if a Wai is not returned.

If the Wai was not about status i would prefer it to a handshake (why should i feel obliged to shake someone's hand) and i like that the Thais do not expect visitors to their country to use it.

A wai is more a method of respect with out passing on germs. Do you shake your Doctors hand when you go in to see them?

People choose to live in a culture that puts more value on respect than the one they come from. Just except it and move on don't try to drag it down to the level of the country they come from.