Thank You Macb!

[thaigerd]

Couple of days ago our member macb mentioned in a thread if someone has problems with dog training we could contact him for help.

So I send him a pm and explained my problem with our Rottweiler:

Nearly cero obedience and when walking he was walking with me more or less

After some emails and some very good instructions today by phone I went home after work and started according to macb's advice some basic obedience training;

Believe it or not after 10 minutes he was walking like a little angel at the leash!!!!

No more pulling me from one side to the other, even my wife could take him for a walk with out running away.

We will go on our daily training with him and after a while when he is obedient enough to learn him a bit more.

Thank you so much macb!!!

Max, Sunee and Gerd

[lotus eater]

why not share the advice/tips on this open thread?

[thaigerd]

why not share the advice/tips on this open thread?

Please ask macb to explain his training here. Difficult(I think) to understand in a written explanation, thats why I had to speak to him on the phone.

Are you interested?

In a couple of days I will get a very good DVD from the Thai Police dog school where they explain their training methods step by step, but it's in Thai language.

Gerd

[thaigerd]

A little video from the first attempts:

Video

[Nienke]

why not share the advice/tips on this open thread?

Please ask macb to explain his training here. Difficult(I think) to understand in a written explanation, thats why I had to speak to him on the phone.

Are you interested?

In a couple of days I will get a very good DVD from the Thai Police dog school where they explain their training methods step by step, but it's in Thai language.

Gerd

Do I misunderstand or ... weren't you in favor of positive reinforcement?

[thaigerd]

why not share the advice/tips on this open thread?

Please ask macb to explain his training here. Difficult(I think) to understand in a written explanation, thats why I had to speak to him on the phone.

Are you interested?

In a couple of days I will get a very good DVD from the Thai Police dog school where they explain their training methods step by step, but it's in Thai language.

Gerd

Do I misunderstand or ... weren't you in favor of positive reinforcement?

Don't worry I am

If am able to copy it I can send a copy to you and we can see what kind of training they use-agree?

Gerd

[lotus eater]

why not share the advice/tips on this open thread?

Please ask macb to explain his training here. Difficult(I think) to understand in a written explanation, thats why I had to speak to him on the phone.

Are you interested?

In a couple of days I will get a very good DVD from the Thai Police dog school where they explain their training methods step by step, but it's in Thai language.

Gerd

yes, i am interested - also in the dvd. i expect to get the first - of probably two - dog quite soon. ok, i'll contact macb directly when the time comes.

glad to hear it all worked out well for you.

[thaigerd]

why not share the advice/tips on this open thread?

Please ask macb to explain his training here. Difficult(I think) to understand in a written explanation, thats why I had to speak to him on the phone.

Are you interested?

In a couple of days I will get a very good DVD from the Thai Police dog school where they explain their training methods step by step, but it's in Thai language.

Gerd

yes, i am interested - also in the dvd. i expect to get the first - of probably two - dog quite soon. ok, i'll contact macb directly when the time comes.

glad to hear it all worked out well for you.

I will lt u know when I got the CD my friend in BKK still has some probs to copy it, please be patient.

Gerd

[Nienke]

Don't worry I am

If am able to copy it I can send a copy to you and we can see what kind of training they use-agree?

Gerd

It is just that I have seen the type of training (here and in the States and Europe) and I have seen the dogs. I have also seen some of the dogs dumped as 'unsuitable'. Some of these dogs were, in my opinion, good dogs but too much suppressed and completely misunderstood by there former dog trainer (s). If they would have received proper training adapted to them as an individual, they could have been very good and loyal police dogs.

The difference between positive reinforcement and traditional dog training methods.

Example: last year I (with some others) was watching a police dog training session where the dog needed to sit and bark behind the helper (man in protection suit). Problem of this dog was that after a second or 2 it would jump up and bite. This was not allowed. What the handler did not see was that the dog, before it would jump up and bite, it looked at the handler for confirmation for correct behavior. Each time they repeated the session, we could clearly see the dog looking at the handler. If right at that moment the handler (or somebody at the sideline) would tell the dog it was doing ok (that split second it DID sit and guard, just before the jump and bite) and would be rewarded for the correct behavior (that is sit and guard), it would have been crystal clear to the dog. And with some repetition, the correct behavior would have rooted in. (This is what have happened, thank goodness)

In tradional dog training the dog would be seen as stubborn or stupid. 'They' would say the dog has too high of a drive blah-blah-blah. Concentration is on the incorrect behavior (jump and bite) and the dog would receive punishment by choke chain, pinch collar or electrical collar. This would make the dog understand it did something wrong, and after a while it will even understand it was the 'jump and bite' that caused the severe pain. But what is correct, nobody tells the dog. It has to find out by it self: that is, it learns to avoid behavior that causes pain and unpleasant feelings, and finally will find the certain behavior that not causes that. End result is a dog that is continuous on the alert for avoiding correction and many police dogs need to be corrected stronger and stronger because they kind-of become immune to it.

Other example: yesterday I went to the local market (talad nad) that is held every Sunday afternoon next to my place. Pretty much no dogs around, and thus an ideal place for me to train my dogs. I took Jacky, a young dalmation with an over-dose of energy (completely normal for a dalmation, though) super curious at everything and nothing (he lacks proper socialization), and acting as a vacuum cleaner (probably he has known hunger during the short period when he was roaming the streets before brought to the shelter). What I wanted him to do was walking on slack lead next to me, stop vacuum clean and definitely don't put his big nose in every passing bag.

Punishment method: choke chain and correct every time he shows improper behavior such as pulling on the lead, jumping up at hands, bags, frogs, tables with whatever on it, etc.

Positive reinforcement: get the attention of your dog and click/reward for doing so. Then keep the attention of your dog. Click/reward for 4 paws on the ground, for ignoring a passing bag, for quietly sitting next to you, for walking on a slack lead, etc. Now in Jacky's case, he has a concentration span of less than 2 seconds, meaning a lot of click/rewards in the beginning. The better he becomes the less click/rewards he gets. But that takes several training sessions. Each very short training session I interrupt by giving him 'free' so he can sniff and mark the same place 2 or 3 times

Three days ago I took him with me in the car. A huge adventure. The first 3 km's I did drive very slowly, while trying to get Jacky out of my ear, from my lap, and back inside through the window (I did not want to put him in a travel crate as then he wouldn't learn anything. Therefore, I leashed him on the back seat, but still )

Fairly quickly he learned that by sitting or laying down quietly he would receive click/reward. He absolutely loved the whole trip, and ready for the next adventure. I was dead tired

Most police and military dog trainers are the least open for changing towards positive reinforcement, they are rusted in the old training methods!!! Although, in Holland I have seen a very slow change especially under the young people.

Nienke

[thaigerd]

Thanks for that lesson and your examples(as usual)!

I am really looking forward to get that CD from BKK and to see how they are training their dogs.

Will send a copy to you if interested.

Gerd

[macb]

Gerd:

Thanks for your Thank you you are most welcome and any one else who needs advice please ask here or pm.

Writing and trying to explain training in words doesnt work really but the mobile helps:

As Nienke says in his two scenarios. But can you imagine being given a book and a dog and being told to train it, the reading is good but it doesnt work in reality.

Every dog is diffrent and has a different personality but there are guide lines laid down by the Home office for every Police Dog Section in the UK on how the end result must be and there are 42 Forces in the UK.

Every Police Dog has to be tested by a Home Office approved instructor not just the dog but the Handler as well:

And testing is more stringent now with the Public making so many complaints against Police because they have jumped on the money wagon.

Gerd its time to teach our Student a bit more