Koh Tao murders appeal reveals shocking new evidence suggesting unfair trial and wrongful conviction

[macca3248]

It was witch hunt from day one !

The real murderer is probably a member of the rich and famous from the Island with connections in high places and access to a lot of money !

[mesterm]

Maybe, just maybe, "face" might be put aside for once, the PM steps in and does the right thing, releases the suspects and arrests all those complicit in this frameup, including the Police who have been paid off, and those influential figures that walked all over the crime scene, fled the island and faked the video showing them at their student dorm.

[mesterm]

Is this a surprise?

No but it's "shocking"!

[stephenterry]

In essence, the above article summarises the major deficiences in the prosecution's case, including the DNA 'evidence' that 'trumps all other aspects' (according to the court's report). On balance, any reasonable person would consider that there is considerable doubt to make the conviction unsafe - and any 'modern' justice system would agree, IMO.

Nevertheless, it has been alleged that Thailand's justice system, particularly in this case, is riddled with unjust methods, including corruption throughout. I don't agree with this allegation, as it is clear to me that this investigation has been perfectly carried out, and that there is a 100% DNA match, because that's what the RTP have stated in court.

[Aj Mick]

Propaganda for the faithful, nothing more, nothing less.

The lies are getting more blatant though, the article claims the UK autopsy ruled out rape, the truth is:

"A coroner has ruled the death of University of Essex student, Hannah Witheridge, in Thailand was an "unlawful killing" by "severe head injuries".

...

They had both suffered head injuries, while Hannah had also been sexually assaulted."

The rest of it is full of similar dishonest and manipulative obfuscation, but of course those emotionally invested in seeing those men as innocent scapegoats (such as the writer of that article) won't let the facts get on the way.

At the end of the day, an appeal based on such things will not succeed and those men will remain were they belong.

Given that a survey conducted on ThaiVisa found that over 92% of respondents believe the 2 Burmese lads are not guilty of the murders, there is little need for propaganda to promote their point of view. The facts are fairly well summed up in the article, and elsewhere, including on these forums.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/881609-survey-do-you-believe-the-2-burmese-found-guilty-of-the-koh-tao-murders-are-guilty/

Dishonest and manipulative obfuscation is more likely the disingenuous agenda of vested interests, charged with keeping the heat off those who belong where the 2 Burmese are now.

[bbbbooboo]

Curiouser.........and..........curiouser

[retarius]

I do wish they would put the cops who tortured these poor fellows in jail and throw away the keys.

[TheLobster]

Given that a survey conducted on ThaiVisa found that over 92% of respondents believe the 2 Burmese lads are not guilty of the murders, there is little need for propaganda to promote their point of view. The facts are fairly well summed up in the article, and elsewhere, including on these forums.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/881609-survey-do-you-believe-the-2-burmese-found-guilty-of-the-koh-tao-murders-are-guilty/

Dishonest and manipulative obfuscation is more likely the disingenuous agenda of vested interests, charged with keeping the heat off those who belong where the 2 Burmese are now.

The disproportionate number of posts from what seems to be the 8% says it all. I have commented on the hysterical level of posting in similar topics, for example in this topic there has just been 4 posts in a row by the same person without reply.

It is a concerted effort to close the topic as soon as possible and regularly succeeds.

[stephenterry]

Propaganda for the faithful, nothing more, nothing less.

The lies are getting more blatant though, the article claims the UK autopsy ruled out rape, the truth is:

"A coroner has ruled the death of University of Essex student, Hannah Witheridge, in Thailand was an "unlawful killing" by "severe head injuries".

...

They had both suffered head injuries, while Hannah had also been sexually assaulted."

The rest of it is full of similar dishonest and manipulative obfuscation, but of course those emotionally invested in seeing those men as innocent scapegoats (such as the writer of that article) won't let the facts get on the way.

At the end of the day, an appeal based on such things will not succeed and those men will remain were they belong.

Given that a survey conducted on ThaiVisa found that over 92% of respondents believe the 2 Burmese lads are not guilty of the murders, there is little need for propaganda to promote their point of view. The facts are fairly well summed up in the article, and elsewhere, including on these forums.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/881609-survey-do-you-believe-the-2-burmese-found-guilty-of-the-koh-tao-murders-are-guilty/

Dishonest and manipulative obfuscation is more likely the disingenuous agenda of vested interests, charged with keeping the heat off those who belong where the 2 Burmese are now.

That's a given. It's in their vested interests to get this thread (and any other Koh Tao thread) closed down in order to remove it from the public's gaze. Which it shouldn't be, because continuing attention to the plight of the B2 should never be extinguished until they are rightfully acquitted of any crime against the two victims - and justice is seen to be done.

[sweatalot]

New evidence??? what new evidence? It's hardly breaking news either

Whether these scars were caused by a Thai autopsy or not is irrelevant. It does not prove she was not sexually assaulted and it certainly has nothing to do with the blows that killed the poor girl.

I googled the writers name and it led me straight to an article published by Andrew Drummond a week ago, Drummond had an arrest warrant put out on him by the Thai Supreme Court, he is a known habitual liar and anything he writes about Thailand can not be believed. IMO

If this had any relevance it would have been front page news when the story broke.

well, here they come

[Khon Kaen Dave]

They will not suffer the death penalty,because they wont be here.This will now go on for years.They will either be found dead in their cell and a letter will be found confirming a suicide pact due to depression.Or when they are log forgotten,they will be allowed to 'escape'.They will always be convicted felons and that will be a satisfactory way of face saving.The usual methods will be shown to used, extradition orders and the other crap that goes with it will be asked for,but they will vanish like the morning dew,over time.

If they do vanish,i hope the Brit coroner will have been partly responsible for it,but the Thais will never admit to having missed anything or made any kind of mistake.

Good luck boys.

[sweatalot]

New evidence??? what new evidence? It's hardly breaking news either

Whether these scars were caused by a Thai autopsy or not is irrelevant. It does not prove she was not sexually assaulted and it certainly has nothing to do with the blows that killed the poor girl.

I googled the writers name and it led me straight to an article published by Andrew Drummond a week ago, Drummond had an arrest warrant put out on him by the Thai Supreme Court, he is a known habitual liar and anything he writes about Thailand can not be believed. IMO

If this had any relevance it would have been front page news when the story broke.

it is not so important whether it's new

what is important is that it is true

and it does not matter that this article might have been published before - that just shows that more people know the truth

In a case like this the truth should be shouted from every rooftop

[GAZZPA]

Excellent summation of just some of the foul ups (unintentional and more shockingly intentional) that any rational person who followed the investigation / trial would quite clearly have been able to see.

Sadly this isn't going to save them. Nothing will make this court lose face now unless CCTV footage of the actual murder taking place, or footage from the B2's home showing them in their beds emerges. So sick, sad, and unjust. Those who (unfathomably) still believe they are guilty need to take a long, hard look at themselves. A true injustice at play here

I fear you could be right, but maybe, just maybe this is a benchmark case where justice does prevail.

This appeal is going to get global coverage for sure, millions of people are going to read it and pressure is going to seriously mount for the Thai authorities to show that they will do the right thing. This might be one of those cases where time does not make it go away, it may be that the claws are dug in and continual coverage will apply continued pressure. If this is the case then it will become increasingly difficult to not do nothing..

Thai authorities could lose a lot more face by doing nothing, this will become a consideration for sure.

This is a very sad day for Thailand, very bad publicity and I cannot believe it will have nothing but repercussions on the Thai tourist trade and economy and the overall reputation of Thailand. People have very long memories when it comes to things like this.

I can also see any future suspicious death coming under the spotlight, covering up will be hard unless they want another fiasco like this.

Lets hope that the right thing is done, that Thailand regain some standing and these 2 young men are sent home to their families and the hunt for the real killers begins.

[sweatalot]

New evidence??? what new evidence? It's hardly breaking news either

Whether these scars were caused by a Thai autopsy or not is irrelevant. It does not prove she was not sexually assaulted and it certainly has nothing to do with the blows that killed the poor girl.

I googled the writers name and it led me straight to an article published by Andrew Drummond a week ago, Drummond had an arrest warrant put out on him by the Thai Supreme Court, he is a known habitual liar and anything he writes about Thailand can not be believed. IMO

If this had any relevance it would have been front page news when the story broke.

it is not so important whether it's new

what is important is that it is true

and it does not matter that this article might have been published before - that just shows that more people know the truth

In a case like this the truth should be shouted from every rooftop

and btw having an arrest warrant put out on you in Thailand (and everywhere else) does not mean you are guilty

and having no arrest warrant put out on you does not mean you are not guilty

[beammeup]

I am open minded to either side of the argument. Still waiting to be convinced either way. This article is very one sided, the case has been obviously poorly handles. Didn’t they find the boys semen inside Hanna. How did it get there?

[elgordo38]

Quote Should the boys win the appeal and be freed, questions will then be raised over the investigations, trails and convictions of others who profess their innocence and the shadow of international suspicion will continue to fall on a small island in the gulf of Thailand that has proved itself in the light of the international media to be far darker than it appears! unquote. Herein lies the answer that the boys will never win the appeal and be released

[elgordo38]

Racism is so common in this country, like trowing litter on the streets it goes from the top to the bottom. Thai/ chinese despice thais, thais and chinese have a common scapegoat in the farang and other non etnic thais. I have a boy here with thai mother. I had sort of expected it but it did not become clear to me before we experienced the treatment of the boy in school. They are picking at him for any small thing they can find, and believe me they are looking hard. When he was smaller he was just a little sweet farang boy among teachers and other staff, no treat to anyone, now that he is soon turning 11, he is suddenly " the handsome one". When i ask for him in school what classrom he is in that day the female teachers talk among them self, oh yes its .... name the handsome farang. This might seen like a small problem but for the boy it is definitly not. Jalousy from the thai/chinese boys and older teachers is mounting. Smacking over the fingers with rulers is a widely used torture metode, and slapping over the head. Last term i finally got hold of the head teacher, she usd to escape whenever she saw me because her fear of speaking english, but when i got her to sit down for a talk, the schoolyear ended in nice standing. New term, new teacher about 65, should never have been near children in a teaching capacity. She used two weeks to tear down all we buildt up last term. Slapping, screaming generally trying to kill any want by the childen for learning anything. Talk to the chinese big boss, impossible no speke de inglish, even with translator present they are so unrespectful that they all the time speak directly in thai to the boy not to me translator shit scared to tell me whats said. Of cource there is no practice of slapping, screaming so on of the students in this fine school, they lie you stright in the face without moving an eyelid. Everybody knows that this is going on, nobody do anything, if you speak to other parents they agree with you but are scared to speak up. Oh and it's such a good chinese private school. Change school, not easy the boy have a few good friends there he know he loose if he change school. Ok thats us, i'm sure there are other expats out there with similar experience. So to the boys at Koh Tao, it is hard to imagnine how they ever could get a fair trial in this country. Nevermind proof or no proof. Outsiders, lover cast, no money. As an expat of many years in this country and not celebrating the new rulers, i still had a hope of change to the better. And to he fair many good things have changed, the corruption with land deeds especially, the rich right out stealing state land building huge resorts, trying to do something with corruption inside the police and many other things, but for the two guys at Koh Tao sadly they are cought in a justice system where it seems like the elite still rules, and little or nothing have changed, why havent the new rulers done anything to change this important part of peoples life. One can but wonder and take care not wonder too loud..

Sorry to hear about how your son is being singled out. In years to come as he becomes and adult the words "handsome farang" will be the gift that keeps on giving.

[casualbiker]

Propaganda for the faithful, nothing more, nothing less.

The lies are getting more blatant though, the article claims the UK autopsy ruled out rape, the truth is:

"A coroner has ruled the death of University of Essex student, Hannah Witheridge, in Thailand was an "unlawful killing" by "severe head injuries".

...

They had both suffered head injuries, while Hannah had also been sexually assaulted."

The rest of it is full of similar dishonest and manipulative obfuscation, but of course those emotionally invested in seeing those men as innocent scapegoats (such as the writer of that article) won't let the facts get on the way.

At the end of the day, an appeal based on such things will not succeed and those men will remain were they belong.

You have read the actual UK autopsy? Or just pulled that from another undisclosed source?

Hannah Witheridge "Unlawfully Killed", Coroner Rules

That doesn't actually say the sexual assault information was in the coroners report. It reads like that's the reporter restating previous report information. Unlawfully killed is what the coroners report says.. point to a direct quote that says sexual assault!

Sexually Assaulted.png

A direct quote means that it is attributed to a source. Like the title on that same webpage, not in the editorial. I would have thought that was obvious.

[StealthEnergiser]

I am open minded to either side of the argument. Still waiting to be convinced either way. This article is very one sided, the case has been obviously poorly handles. Didn’t they find the boys semen inside Hanna. How did it get there?

did you miss this ?

The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing. Including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report.

[sweatalot]

Given that a survey conducted on ThaiVisa found that over 92% of respondents believe the 2 Burmese lads are not guilty of the murders, there is little need for propaganda to promote their point of view. The facts are fairly well summed up in the article, and elsewhere, including on these forums.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/881609-survey-do-you-believe-the-2-burmese-found-guilty-of-the-koh-tao-murders-are-guilty/

Dishonest and manipulative obfuscation is more likely the disingenuous agenda of vested interests, charged with keeping the heat off those who belong where the 2 Burmese are now.

That's a given. It's in their vested interests to get this thread (and any other Koh Tao thread) closed down in order to remove it from the public's gaze. Which it shouldn't be, because continuing attention to the plight of the B2 should never be extinguished until they are rightfully acquitted of any crime against the two victims - and justice is seen to be done.

To prevent them to succeeding with their strategy and to comply with forum rules

I suggest the following

Don't get entangled in a discussion with them

To avoid confusing newbies in this thread

Just post a standard answer to them like this:

No comment to this post for the following reason:

Given that a survey conducted on ThaiVisa found that over 92% of respondents believe the 2 Burmese lads are not guilty of the murders, there is little need for propaganda to promote their point of view. The facts are fairly well summed up in the article, and elsewhere, including on these forums.

http://www.thaivisa....ers-are-guilty/

Dishonest and manipulative obfuscation is more likely the disingenuous agenda of vested interests, charged with keeping the heat off those who belong where the 2 Burmese are now

It's in their vested interests to get this thread (and any other Koh Tao thread) closed down in order to remove it from the public's gaze. Which it shouldn't be, because continuing attention to the plight of the B2 should never be extinguished until they are rightfully acquitted of any crime against the two victims - and justice is seen to be done.

[cdnvic]

Please just move on and discuss the topic. Contact a moderator or support with any questions.

[ianf]

I find it amazing that we still have posters here who think that the B2 are guilty. I have no idea what drives people like this when the truth is so glaringly obvious.

To me, the greatest thing that the Prime Minister could do is to to admit that there was a massive mishandling of this case which involved bribes, torture and worse.

If he can admit this in public and then lay down the plan for massive change in the way that this society is policed, then he would have stepped up to the mark which is something Thailand desperately needs. We would then begin to see real change. So if this case is a catalyst for change then perhaps the B2 would have done us all a favour.

The Thais do not like to be criticised in any way shape or form. My open criticism of a national sporting body has brought threats rather than an acknowledgement that something was wrong. All I did was to point out non-compliance with international regulations for this particular sporting body. Now if something that inconsequential can put the Thais on the back foot, what hope is there for anything as important as justice?

As it stands I can only see the situation in this country deteriorating year on year. And people like Hannah's murderer will be free to continue with his grim work.

[ianf]

I am open minded to either side of the argument. Still waiting to be convinced either way. This article is very one sided, the case has been obviously poorly handles. Didn’t they find the boys semen inside Hanna. How did it get there?

Was it there in the first place? How about the condoms that were produced? Why so much contradiction?

I'll tell you why: Because the liars who made the story up in the first place kept changing the script.

[GAZZPA]

I am open minded to either side of the argument. Still waiting to be convinced either way. This article is very one sided, the case has been obviously poorly handles. Didn’t they find the boys semen inside Hanna. How did it get there?

no, they didn't. There has been no evidence presented that the 2 convicted were near either victim or that they touched the murder weapon.

I too want to be open minded about this, but from everything I have heard it stinks of a cover up to me. Or at the very least there is no real evidence that they did it and they were used for a quick conviction.

if what i have read is to be believed then they should never have been convicted in the first place.

you have to ask the question, if all of the evidence the police claim to have (but was never presented in court which in itself is pretty unbelievable) why would they not present it? If it is the foundation of their case surely it would have been presented on a silver platter for the defence to see?

Anway, I dont think justice has been done, i hope this unravels and the real killers are found,, Guess we will see.

[Bangkok Barry]

Maybe, just maybe, "face" might be put aside for once, the PM steps in and does the right thing, releases the suspects and arrests all those complicit in this frameup, including the Police who have been paid off, and those influential figures that walked all over the crime scene, fled the island and faked the video showing them at their student dorm.

I'm dreaming, I know ... but if "Thailand" ever wants to be taken seriously, this is the time.

I understand what you are saying, but do you really want an unelected military government stepping in and overturning the courts? As for Thailand wanting to be taken seriously, it has no interest at all in what outsiders think. Plenty of examples of various PMs telling others, including the US, to butt out, you are not our masters etc.

[off road pat]

Is this a surprise?

Not to most of us !

[dunroaming]

Unfortunately the chances of the same people overturning their own findings is unlikely given the "face" that they would lose. Seeing the corruption and lack of truth and honesty first hand everyday whilst living in Thailand makes these latest revelations no surprise whatsoever.

My heart goes out to these boys but lets not forget that these are two of many hundreds who are made scapegoats in the country of smoke and mirrors.

[sanukjim]

No shit Sherlock ?

[TKDfella]

...and by now the real killers are still out waiting to do it all over again (if they haven't already).

[khunken]

Maybe, just maybe, "face" might be put aside for once, the PM steps in and does the right thing, releases the suspects and arrests all those complicit in this frameup, including the Police who have been paid off, and those influential figures that walked all over the crime scene, fled the island and faked the video showing them at their student dorm.

I'm dreaming, I know ... but if "Thailand" ever wants to be taken seriously, this is the time.

I understand what you are saying, but do you really want an unelected military government stepping in and overturning the courts? As for Thailand wanting to be taken seriously, it has no interest at all in what outsiders think. Plenty of examples of various PMs telling others, including the US, to butt out, you are not our masters etc.

Personally I wouldn't want any government, military or 'elected', to interfere with the courts.

Unfortunately, there has been quite an amount of intimidation in the past and 'no Thai would have done this' is blatant interference in the prosecutorial process. Followed by the removal (under whose orders?) of a senior policeman who was on the right track but managed to choose the 'wrong' culprits.

By this time it was obvious to anyone who has any knowledge of how the police 'work' here that the justice system was being usurped yet again because of influential individuals with money.

Everything that followed, from the Guantanamo-style-without-waterboarding interrogation all the way to verbal DNA evidence being accepted as 'evidence' - was a complete stitch-up.

I can see this going all the way to the Supreme Court where there is a better chance of an intimidation-free and higher standard of judgement.