Foreign Investors Remain Uncertain About Nominee Status

[Robski]

I think that this thread is about whether companies in Thailand should be genuinely majority-owned by Thai nationals. Shouldn’t the Thai nationals amongst the owners be putting up, and risking, at least 51% of the capital? That was the policy that was decided on, in the past. It seems to be recognized that, in more recent times, this policy has been circumvented by the use of nominees. So it has been possible for a dangerously-large inflow of foreign capital to occur and cause a speculative bubble that has ultimately burst. My view is that the present administration is right to take steps to avoid that risk.

I have no grand vision of economics. The grand (i.e. rampant) visions of communism, socialism, and capitalism have all ended up doing more harm than good when immoderately pursued. However, a country that combines the strengths of its communities, society, and personal accrued capital can develop itself comfortably, provided (as JR Texas says) its population does not grow to exceed its capacity to feed and house its populace. So, to me, it makes sense for Thailand to be cautious about foreign capital and spurn excess offerings. Building family enterprises (that include partial sufficiency in urban, semi-urban and rural settings) and public companies from the bottom up seems, to me, to be less risky nowadays than building from the top down by capitalizing new companies with money from abroad.

[Robski]

I think that this thread is about whether companies in Thailand should be genuinely majority-owned by Thai nationals. Shouldn’t the Thai nationals amongst the owners be putting up, and risking, at least 51% of the capital? That was the policy that was decided on, in the past. It seems to be recognized that, in more recent times, this policy has been circumvented by the use of nominees. So it has been possible for a dangerously-large inflow of foreign capital to occur and cause a speculative bubble that has ultimately burst. My view is that the present administration is right to take steps to avoid that risk.

I have no grand vision of economics. The grand (i.e. rampant) visions of communism, socialism, and capitalism have all ended up doing more harm than good when immoderately pursued. However, a country that combines the strengths of its communities, society, and personal accrued capital can develop itself comfortably, provided (as JR Texas says) its population does not grow to exceed its capacity to feed and house its populace. So, to me, it makes sense for Thailand to be cautious about foreign capital and spurn excess offerings. Building family enterprises (that include partial sufficiency in urban, semi-urban and rural settings) and public companies from the bottom up seems, to me, to be less risky nowadays than building from the top down by capitalizing new companies with money from abroad.

Sorry I haven't had my coffee yet.

Thankyou Martin a post that is brief and to the point.

[Robski]

I think the main question on this thread has to do with Thailand's current investment climate. Are foreigners reluctant to invest in Thailand? Why are foreigners reluctant to invest in Thailand? What changes could the new govt. take to create a positive investment climate?

Under the present circumstances, I would not invest one baht in Thailand.

The simple fact is that many generations of Thai people have lived like this for longer than most of our home countries have existed. They will continue to get along whether we are here or not. Everywhere in the world the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. What makes Thailand unique is that there is plenty to eat. Rice is plentiful and the poor Thai Buddhists are a generous people. I live in a poor area of Issan and I have never seen anyone go hungry. They DON'T care what the wealthy politicians and greedy crooks in Bangkok are doing.

Thanks, good posts and back on track.

I'm not an economist or an expert of any kind, but like many people I have an interest in my future in Thailand and so many factors are combining at the moment to make that extremely uncertain.

The regulatory viewpoint in Thailand seems to be that one size fits all, but it is confusing and unworkable in a way that is liable and transparent.

Wether it is in business investment large or small, visa regulations, banking or property ownership and regardless of what the official line is, the net result, when you add it all up, is that foreigners and foreign companies (US, Europen and Austrailian/NZ) are being given a very negative message.

Is there a method to their madness or is it just madness?

[JR Texas]

I think the main question on this thread has to do with Thailand's current investment climate. Are foreigners reluctant to invest in Thailand? Why are foreigners reluctant to invest in Thailand? What changes could the new govt. take to create a positive investment climate?

Under the present circumstances, I would not invest one baht in Thailand.

The simple fact is that many generations of Thai people have lived like this for longer than most of our home countries have existed. They will continue to get along whether we are here or not. Everywhere in the world the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. What makes Thailand unique is that there is plenty to eat. Rice is plentiful and the poor Thai Buddhists are a generous people. I live in a poor area of Issan and I have never seen anyone go hungry. They DON'T care what the wealthy politicians and greedy crooks in Bangkok are doing.

Thanks, good posts and back on track.

I'm not an economist or an expert of any kind, but like many people I have an interest in my future in Thailand and so many factors are combining at the moment to make that extremely uncertain.

The regulatory viewpoint in Thailand seems to be that one size fits all, but it is confusing and unworkable in a way that is liable and transparent.

Wether it is in business investment large or small, visa regulations, banking or property ownership and regardless of what the official line is, the net result, when you add it all up, is that foreigners and foreign companies (US, Europen and Austrailian/NZ) are being given a very negative message.

Is there a method to their madness or is it just madness?

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to Gary A: I have a house in the country in the middle of nowhere...nothing but rice farmers. I see how they live. It is a hard life. Some do care about what the govt. is doing, but they are easily manipulated by the ruling elite (most are poorly educated). Virtually all of them want more money. They want a better life. That is, of course, my impression.

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to Robski: You said "Whether it is in business investment large or small, visa regulations, banking or property ownership and regardless of what the official line is, the net result, when you add it all up, is that foreigners and foreign companies (US, European and Austraiian/NZ) are being given a very negative message."

I totally agree. This is a big and growing problem. There are many people who visit the Thailand Forum who want to paint a very positive picture of the current investment climate. Why? Because they are heavily involved in real estate, among other things. If you want to sell something, it helps to put the customers in a good mood. Bad news does not sell (advertising 101). It makes sense. But I think it is blind optimism.

When you send negative messages, a negative response normally follows. That is precisely what Thailand is doing. Most of the problems are directly related to Thaksin. He is gone. But his ideas and policies (especially those related to visa/business rules and regulations) remain. This is, in my view, the essential problem that needs a solution.

About your question (Robski's question): "Is there a method to their madness or is it just madness?"

To me it seems like madness. It simply does not make sense to me. If I wanted to destroy the economy, including tourism, I would do what they are doing:

1) turning a non-problem (the perpetual tourists who do the monthly visa runs) into a problem....note that perpetual tourists spend money in Thailand and they do pay taxes each time they purchase something.......they are valuable assets;

2) removing the 4 million investment visa;

3) eliminating the 400K in the bank visa rule for a foreigner married to a Thai woman;

4) keeping the 51% business ownership rule;

5) making small-scale investors wade through a sea of red tape to open a business and making it too costly to even test a business idea;

6) keeping the 4 Thais to 1 foreigner employment rule;

7) telling foreigners that the new visa changes are about stopping crime when they have virtually nothing to do with crime (and what percentage of serious crimes are actually committed by foreigners? less than 0.1%? will they ever tell us?);

8) telling local Thai embassies and consulates to do different things in different places (e.g., no tourist visa in Cambodia, single tourist visa in Penang, maybe a double tourist visa in KL, or return to your country of origin for the visa when the immigration official who can give you the visa is standing right across from you in Bangkok.......just crazy stuff);

9) making the costs associated with various visas and extensions too expensive;

10) treating foreigners like they are all potential criminals.

Again, I will not put one baht in Thailand until these rules and regulations are changed. I left Thailand because the rules and regulations prevented me from starting a small business in Thailand. And now I am spending good money each month in China.

The Chinese are happy that I am giving them my money. Thais, in the city that I was living in, are not happy that I left because I was spending good money there. The Thai government could care less that I am not spending money in Thailand because I am not rich. But they should care because the vast majority of foreigners that are being negatively impacted by the new rules and regulations are far from being rich.

Bottom line: Thailand is losing. I predict it will lose much more if positive changes do not occur to the visa/business rules and regulations.

[Gary A]

So JR, you're doing business in China and having no problems with corruption or the many various permits you need?

[bkkandrew]

I think the main question on this thread has to do with Thailand's current investment climate. Are foreigners reluctant to invest in Thailand? Why are foreigners reluctant to invest in Thailand? What changes could the new govt. take to create a positive investment climate?

Under the present circumstances, I would not invest one baht in Thailand.

The simple fact is that many generations of Thai people have lived like this for longer than most of our home countries have existed. They will continue to get along whether we are here or not. Everywhere in the world the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. What makes Thailand unique is that there is plenty to eat. Rice is plentiful and the poor Thai Buddhists are a generous people. I live in a poor area of Issan and I have never seen anyone go hungry. They DON'T care what the wealthy politicians and greedy crooks in Bangkok are doing.

Thanks, good posts and back on track.

I'm not an economist or an expert of any kind, but like many people I have an interest in my future in Thailand and so many factors are combining at the moment to make that extremely uncertain.

The regulatory viewpoint in Thailand seems to be that one size fits all, but it is confusing and unworkable in a way that is liable and transparent.

Wether it is in business investment large or small, visa regulations, banking or property ownership and regardless of what the official line is, the net result, when you add it all up, is that foreigners and foreign companies (US, Europen and Austrailian/NZ) are being given a very negative message.

Is there a method to their madness or is it just madness?

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to Gary A: I have a house in the country in the middle of nowhere...nothing but rice farmers. I see how they live. It is a hard life. Some do care about what the govt. is doing, but they are easily manipulated by the ruling elite (most are poorly educated). Virtually all of them want more money. They want a better life. That is, of course, my impression.

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to Robski: You said "Whether it is in business investment large or small, visa regulations, banking or property ownership and regardless of what the official line is, the net result, when you add it all up, is that foreigners and foreign companies (US, European and Austraiian/NZ) are being given a very negative message."

I totally agree. This is a big and growing problem. There are many people who visit the Thailand Forum who want to paint a very positive picture of the current investment climate. Why? Because they are heavily involved in real estate, among other things. If you want to sell something, it helps to put the customers in a good mood. Bad news does not sell (advertising 101). It makes sense. But I think it is blind optimism.

When you send negative messages, a negative response normally follows. That is precisely what Thailand is doing. Most of the problems are directly related to Thaksin. He is gone. But his ideas and policies (especially those related to visa/business rules and regulations) remain. This is, in my view, the essential problem that needs a solution.

About your question (Robski's question): "Is there a method to their madness or is it just madness?"

To me it seems like madness. It simply does not make sense to me. If I wanted to destroy the economy, including tourism, I would do what they are doing:

1) turning a non-problem (the perpetual tourists who do the monthly visa runs) into a problem....note that perpetual tourists spend money in Thailand and they do pay taxes each time they purchase something.......they are valuable assets;

2) removing the 4 million investment visa;

3) eliminating the 400K in the bank visa rule for a foreigner married to a Thai woman;

4) keeping the 51% business ownership rule;

5) making small-scale investors wade through a sea of red tape to open a business and making it too costly to even test a business idea;

6) keeping the 4 Thais to 1 foreigner employment rule;

7) telling foreigners that the new visa changes are about stopping crime when they have virtually nothing to do with crime (and what percentage of serious crimes are actually committed by foreigners? less than 0.1%? will they ever tell us?);

8) telling local Thai embassies and consulates to do different things in different places (e.g., no tourist visa in Cambodia, single tourist visa in Penang, maybe a double tourist visa in KL, or return to your country of origin for the visa when the immigration official who can give you the visa is standing right across from you in Bangkok.......just crazy stuff);

9) making the costs associated with various visas and extensions too expensive;

10) treating foreigners like they are all potential criminals.

Again, I will not put one baht in Thailand until these rules and regulations are changed. I left Thailand because the rules and regulations prevented me from starting a small business in Thailand. And now I am spending good money each month in China.

The Chinese are happy that I am giving them my money. Thais, in the city that I was living in, are not happy that I left because I was spending good money there. The Thai government could care less that I am not spending money in Thailand because I am not rich. But they should care because the vast majority of foreigners that are being negatively impacted by the new rules and regulations are far from being rich.

Bottom line: Thailand is losing. I predict it will lose much more if positive changes do not occur to the visa/business rules and regulations.

Excellent and thoughtful post..

I am on the cusp of a similar situation. I cannot do anything before Christmas, as the goods I export are seasonal and air-freighted and this time of year on a JIT basis. But...

In January I am re-evaluating where I source all my goods from. Top of my pick is Malaysia, where a number of lines come from now anyway.

I have told all my Thai suppliers about the review and the reasons for it. They are trying to make things easier for me, but really my problems are with all of the items discussed here on TV and certainly beyond their control. My business represents over 90% of the income of one particular company (among the dozen or so that I deal with), who employ 20 Thais and no foreigners. Do the powers-that-be have the face to come and discuss how they propose to help these people, their fellow Thais?

I suspect not..

[Old Man River]

Agreed, not much will happen until laws become clear. However, it is easy to forget that well over half of the FDI (large, long term capital) coming into Thailand comes from Asia, not the west. Japan leads the way. Their investment decisions are not necessarily based on the same parameters we are used to.

[JR Texas]

So JR, you're doing business in China and having no problems with corruption or the many various permits you need?

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to Gary A: Thanks for the question..........I am an academic working at one of China's top universities. So, my visa was easily taken care of...very inexpensive, nice immigration officials.........no corruption.......easy. And I do not have to report to immigration every 90 days (no reporting at all, as a matter of fact) or return to the USA for a "stamp" etc., etc.

I am thinking, seriously, about starting a small business here. The Chinese are smart. They make you feel welcome. Things seem "upscale" here. Thailand seems like a primitive country in comparison. My quality of life is much higher here than in Thailand (but I do miss the Thai holidays).

I live in a great place that most expats do not know about (mountains on one side and an ocean on the other side). Really beautiful! The weather is cool now. The girls are stunning! This is not your "grandfather's China." Things have changed.

No, I do not yet know enough about the visa/business rules and regulations in China to make an informed comment. I am finding out now. My initial impression is that it is much easier and far less expensive to establish a small scale business in China than it is in Thailand. And this is the fastest growing economy on the planet. It is a place for investment.

As an aside: I was stunned when I flew into Hong Kong and then took a taxi ride down by the waterfront on Kowloon side. It was getting dark and we drove by the docks. There you could see thousands of container cargo units stacked up like cords of wood, for as far as the eye can see, all headed for Europe, South America, Middle East, USA............it was impressive.

In China you can hear the cling of cash registers all over the place. And, like I said, they want you here (you do feel welcome) and they want you to spend your money...and they do not care if you are not rich......unlike another country whose name I will not mention.

[bkkandrew]

So JR, you're doing business in China and having no problems with corruption or the many various permits you need?

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to Gary A: Thanks for the question..........I am an academic working at one of China's top universities. So, my visa was easily taken care of...very inexpensive, nice immigration officials.........no corruption.......easy. And I do not have to report to immigration every 90 days (no reporting at all, as a matter of fact) or return to the USA for a "stamp" etc., etc.

I am thinking, seriously, about starting a small business here. The Chinese are smart. They make you feel welcome. Things seem "upscale" here. Thailand seems like a primitive country in comparison. My quality of life is much higher here than in Thailand (but I do miss the Thai holidays).

I live in a great place that most expats do not know about (mountains on one side and an ocean on the other side). Really beautiful! The weather is cool now. The girls are stunning! This is not your "grandfather's China." Things have changed.

No, I do not yet know enough about the visa/business rules and regulations in China to make an informed comment. I am finding out now. My initial impression is that it is much easier and far less expensive to establish a small scale business in China than it is in Thailand. And this is the fastest growing economy on the planet. It is a place for investment.

As an aside: I was stunned when I flew into Hong Kong and then took a taxi ride down by the waterfront on Kowloon side. It was getting dark and we drove by the docks. There you could see thousands of container cargo units stacked up like cords of wood, for as far as the eye can see, all headed for Europe, South America, Middle East, USA............it was impressive.

In China you can hear the cling of cash registers all over the place. And, like I said, they want you here (you do feel welcome) and they want you to spend your money...and they do not care if you are not rich......unlike another country whose name I will not mention.

Hey. I might can Malaysia and check out China first!

Edited November 14, 2006 by bkkandrew

[JR Texas]

So JR, you're doing business in China and having no problems with corruption or the many various permits you need?

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to Gary A: Thanks for the question..........I am an academic working at one of China's top universities. So, my visa was easily taken care of...very inexpensive, nice immigration officials.........no corruption.......easy. And I do not have to report to immigration every 90 days (no reporting at all, as a matter of fact) or return to the USA for a "stamp" etc., etc.

I am thinking, seriously, about starting a small business here. The Chinese are smart. They make you feel welcome. Things seem "upscale" here. Thailand seems like a primitive country in comparison. My quality of life is much higher here than in Thailand (but I do miss the Thai holidays).

I live in a great place that most expats do not know about (mountains on one side and an ocean on the other side). Really beautiful! The weather is cool now. The girls are stunning! This is not your "grandfather's China." Things have changed.

No, I do not yet know enough about the visa/business rules and regulations in China to make an informed comment. I am finding out now. My initial impression is that it is much easier and far less expensive to establish a small scale business in China than it is in Thailand. And this is the fastest growing economy on the planet. It is a place for investment.

As an aside: I was stunned when I flew into Hong Kong and then took a taxi ride down by the waterfront on Kowloon side. It was getting dark and we drove by the docks. There you could see thousands of container cargo units stacked up like cords of wood, for as far as the eye can see, all headed for Europe, South America, Middle East, USA............it was impressive.

In China you can hear the cling of cash registers all over the place. And, like I said, they want you here (you do feel welcome) and they want you to spend your money...and they do not care if you are not rich......unlike another country whose name I will not mention.

Hey. I might can Malaysia and check out China first!

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to BKK Andrew: Remember that China is huge. You can have a great experience in one place and a bad experience in another place. Hong Kong is nice to look at, but it is very expensive. The mainland is less expensive.

The least costly flight from Bangkok to China is to Macau on AirAsia (last time I looked). If you fly there you can walk across the border to a place called Zhuhai. It is a city built right on the ocean. It also has a type of "walking street" with lots of girls (very upscale compared to Thailand).

If you visit Hong Kong, Macau and Zhuhai, you will end up with a good idea of what "progressive China" is all about (Shanghai is also a good place).

And in case you are a starved American, McDonald's in China actually makes American-style pancakes and sausage in the morning. I think I just made a lot of expats in Thailand hungry.

Given all of the negative propaganda (largely coming from the USA) about China, I never thought I would like China. I have discovered that China is nothing like I imagined it to be. Well, almost.......censorship does exist and it is blatant. Of course, the entire mainstream mass media in the USA is controlled by a few corporations.....same thing, just a different flavor.

Expats often mention that they like Thailand because it is safe. I never feel threatened in China. It seems very safe--much safer than USA.

One thing I would like for another person to do is to compare the visa/business rules and regulations for several Asian countries. Maybe they are all "nuts." Maybe not. I am not qualified to do this and do not have the time. There has to be somebody out there who has the information and who would be happy to share it with us. That would help all of us to put Thailand's visa/business rules and regulations into perspective.

[calibanjr.]

JR, do they have Egg McMuffin's?

[xbusman]

In the past three years my business has gone from 90% Thai/ 10% China to 90% China/ 10% Thai. The exchange rate, VAT theft, difficulties of dealing with Thai customs, paperwork for company, weird regulations, work permit, and on and on. I have watched all my competitors do the same thing, struggle for years in Thailand and move to China. Not a single regret other than the lifestyle. Thailand is lovely to live in, great for vacation, but for the small business man they make it very difficult and precarious at best.

[Gary A]

I know a British guy who has built his girlfriend a beautiful house not far from where I live. I mentioned this because that's how I met him. He is in the chemical business and was talking about his business being based in India. I asked him why he didn't do it in Thailand. He grinned and told me the Thais were far too greedy and difficult to deal with. He said he went from Thailand to China and had similar problems. That's when he moved to India. He says India has problems too but not nearly to the extent that Thailand and China have. He wouldn't elaborate much about his business and what he does, in fact he was rather secretive, BUT it is apparent that he DOES have money.

[JR Texas]

I know a British guy who has built his girlfriend a beautiful house not far from where I live. I mentioned this because that's how I met him. He is in the chemical business and was talking about his business being based in India. I asked him why he didn't do it in Thailand. He grinned and told me the Thais were far too greedy and difficult to deal with. He said he went from Thailand to China and had similar problems. That's when he moved to India. He says India has problems too but not nearly to the extent that Thailand and China have. He wouldn't elaborate much about his business and what he does, in fact he was rather secretive, BUT it is apparent that he DOES have money.

JR Texas (51, USA, in China):

Reply to CalibanJR: Yes, they have egg McMuffins....with cheese, with sausage (sage sausage). Also scrambled eggs, sausage, hash browns, and muffin with strawberry jam.......all with very good coffee. A bit off topic, but what the hel_l, I started it. Must be hungry.

Reply to Gary A: I lived in India.........oh the horror! Red freakin' tape out the you know what. Really difficult place to live, in my opinion. Beautiful women hiding underneath all those clothes (no surpsie

Reply to Xbusman: My quality of life in China really is much better than in Thailand. I have everything I had in Thailand and more. I do not have any visa problem (relaxed). It is easy to work here (no problem). It is very safe. The food is great. The women are beautiful and smart and sexy. You can actually talk to Chinese people about virtually anything and they will listen. The climate is wonderful now.......cool breeze. I turn one way and I am looking at mountains that remind me of the northwest coast in the USA. I turn the other way and I am looking at an ocean that reminds me of bay areas in Texas.

As stated, I do not yet know how easy/hard it is to set up a small business here. I suspect that it is much easier than Thailand. But perhaps it is worse than in Thailand. I doubt it. But I would like to hear from other people who have more experience (recent experience) setting up a small business in the following countries: China, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malaysia, the Philippines. I would like to know how they compare in terms of visa rules and regulations. Which one has the least BS? Which one has the most BS?

[Robski]

Agreed, not much will happen until laws become clear. However, it is easy to forget that well over half of the FDI (large, long term capital) coming into Thailand comes from Asia, not the west. Japan leads the way. Their investment decisions are not necessarily based on the same parameters we are used to.

It would be interesting to know what the percentages are from various countries, if some are put off investment by Thailands stance, others will see an oppurtunity.

Do Thai regulations and/or 'networks' favor trade with Asian countries and what is the Asian markets standpoint regarding Thailand?

Is investment from Asia decreasing, do they have a lack of confidence in Thailand and it's policies?

Who is most likely to gain?

Or does this come down to short term greed, fear of competition and a lack of vision?

[JR Texas]

Agreed, not much will happen until laws become clear. However, it is easy to forget that well over half of the FDI (large, long term capital) coming into Thailand comes from Asia, not the west. Japan leads the way. Their investment decisions are not necessarily based on the same parameters we are used to.

It would be interesting to know what the percentages are from various countries, if some are put off investment by Thailands stance, others will see an oppurtunity.

Do Thai regulations and/or 'networks' favor trade with Asian countries and what is the Asian markets standpoint regarding Thailand?

Is investment from Asia decreasing, do they have a lack of confidence in Thailand and it's policies?

Who is most likely to gain?

Or does this come down to short term greed, fear of competition and a lack of vision?

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Comment on Robski: Robski asked "Who is most likely to gain?" VERY GOOD QUESTION. This gets to the heart of the matter. If a person much wiser than I am can answer that question, a lot of things will make sense that are not making sense.

What are we all missing here? Who stands to gain from Thailand's seemingly insane visa/business rules and regulations? Who? And how?

[Dakhar]

Jr Texas...

From one Texan to another... Howdy.

I have a feeling you are in Yantai or Dalian.

If not, I am wrong... but I shall expand on those areas. They are both very clean, and modern. Right smack dab along a gulf line, and very nice. Nice weather, modern, and was at one time an "economic zone." It still may be at this time, I am not sure. When I was there, I felt the urge to stay....

But latter on I eventually married a Thai woman, and she hates China. Not without reason. The Chinese, love to smoke.... and smoke a lot. For a non smoker it is not that pleasant of a place.

But for me, I like China, like it a lot, and I would say I like it better than Thailand. I speak Mandarin Chinese, which makes things a little easier... A say a little, because the Chinese actually speak a lot of English, so even if you speak Mandarin it is not that big of an advantage.

Unlike Thailand. But any how, there is no perfect place.... but I am with you Tex. Jr, China is a fun, beautiful, economic power house, safe..... Oh I could go on!!!

[Martin]

In post #136, 'JR Texas' said:

"What are we all missing here? Who stands to gain from Thailand's seemingly insane visa/business rules and regulations? Who? And how?"

My view is that 'avoiding losing' is probably more to fore in many minds at the top than is 'prospect of gaining'.

We may well be seeing here the classic "Hopes and Fears" tension at work again, with the senior bureaucrats very conscious that Thailand is but a small nation situated between East and West. (Or should that be 'between East and India-with-the-rest-of-the-West'??).

The senior businessmen, however, see that position as being an opportunity to make money.

Deep and yet deeper down, other emotions may be playing out their struggles, too.

I am reading "Beyond Liberal Democracy" by Daniel Bell. He is Professor of Political Philosophy and Ethics at Tsinhua University in Beijing, and argues that Western liberal democracy can't be pushed down the throats of people who hold Confucian tenets of group discipline. And the throats of those who hold the tenets of Thai-style Buddhism can't be expected to be easily-receptive to either.

There must be many different views of the SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats) of Thailand that come to bear on decisions about the regulations about who, and what money, it is Thailand's best interests to let in. And who, and what money, it is in Thailand's best interests to keep out.

[JR Texas]

In post #136, 'JR Texas' said:

"What are we all missing here? Who stands to gain from Thailand's seemingly insane visa/business rules and regulations? Who? And how?"

My view is that 'avoiding losing' is probably more to fore in many minds at the top than is 'prospect of gaining'.

We may well be seeing here the classic "Hopes and Fears" tension at work again, with the senior bureaucrats very conscious that Thailand is but a small nation situated between East and West. (Or should that be 'between East and India-with-the-rest-of-the-West'??).

The senior businessmen, however, see that position as being an opportunity to make money.

Deep and yet deeper down, other emotions may be playing out their struggles, too.

I am reading "Beyond Liberal Democracy" by Daniel Bell. He is Professor of Political Philosophy and Ethics at Tsinhua University in Beijing, and argues that Western liberal democracy can't be pushed down the throats of people who hold Confucian tenets of group discipline. And the throats of those who hold the tenets of Thai-style Buddhism can't be expected to be easily-receptive to either.

There must be many different views of the SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats) of Thailand that come to bear on decisions about the regulations about who, and what money, it is Thailand's best interests to let in. And who, and what money, it is in Thailand's best interests to keep out.

JR Texas (51, USA): Reply to Dhakar: Hey! Of course we both know that neither one of us is from the USA..........we are from Texas! No..........I am not in Dalian, but it is a place that expats should look at (ocean/mountains/cool weather/modern) as an alternative to Thailand.

JR Texas (51, USA): Reply to Martin: You said it could be more about people "avoiding losing" than the "prospect of gaining." That reminded me of something Anthony Robbins said in Awaken the Giant Within. Basically he said people tend to do more to avoid pain than to do what is necessary to gain pleasure. They are afraid they will lose something, so they do not take the necessary steps to gain something.

I think Dr. Bell might agree that ideology (or the struggle over it) is dead in the sense that virtually the entire global community is now being guided by one single thought process: capitalism and the pursuit of MONEY. In my view most of the ruling elites of the world are no longer seriously being influenced by religion. That is surface level chatter for the masses.........keeps them in the realm of emotion/supersition and bars them from reason/science.

You point is well taken, but this conversation is too intellectual for this intellectual who wants to stop being an intellectual. Actually I just want to get out of academia and start a small business. I am tired of all of the BS....endless discussions about how many angels can actually fit on the end of pin.

Human decision-making is most certainly complex. But I like to think we are all selfish idiots trying to make a buck in this messed up world (I do not exclude myself here). Are the men and women who stand at the top of the corporate-political-military triangle of power any different? I don't think so. They are just richer and more powerful.

[thaigene2]

Man you guys are tiring..How about not pasting in all the quotes just say Hey Martin..or Hey JR..or continue the feud in a separate thread..

[JR Texas]

[quote name='thaigene2' date='2006-11-17 15:29:19' post='988705'

How about not pasting in all the quotes just say Hey Martin..or Hey JR..or continue the feud in a separate thread..

JR Texas (51, USA, in China): Reply to Thaigene2: Thanks for the reminder. Will try to make things short and to the point and not include entire thread.

What feud? I am just "farting in the wind."

Questions: Are the new visa/business rules and regulations hurting investment? Are they hurting tourism? Are they hurting Thailand?

[yimyai]

Thai nationalism is why they've managed to retain their culture without the clutter of Americanism. Yes, business is important, but has never been the supreme ruler of Thailand like it is in America. Maybe Bhutan is a better example of getting it right. For most Thais, the economy is working for them. The accentuation of independence and the Thai identity may not fit the west's paradigm. I believe the poorest people are ethnic Burmese who aren't granted Thai citizenship...so for them the problem is political.

[ColPyat]

Thai nationalism is why they've managed to retain their culture without the clutter of Americanism. Yes, business is important, but has never been the supreme ruler of Thailand like it is in America. Maybe Bhutan is a better example of getting it right. For most Thais, the economy is working for them. The accentuation of independence and the Thai identity may not fit the west's paradigm. I believe the poorest people are ethnic Burmese who aren't granted Thai citizenship...so for them the problem is political.

Maybe you should google "Bhutan and Human Rights violations". And when you are at it, you should read up on issues such as 'Gap between rich and poor in Thailand', 'Problems of wealth distribution in Thailand', etc.

And then the rose colored glasses about 'retaining of culture' and 'getting it right' might slip off your nose.

Edited November 30, 2006 by ColPyat

[johnnyk]

Thailand has always been a classic buffer state playing both ends to the middle.

Its always been only about them and what works best for them.

Roll over for the Japanese in WW2? Sure, keeps Thailand from being a killing field.

Suck up to Uncle Sam in the VN War? Sure, VN is a historical enemy and there is money to be made.

Samesame now.

Keep things safe for multinationals but get rid of those deemed as offensive baggage.

They will do the 'deeming', no one else so get used to it folks.

Unfortunately, they sometimes tend to use shotguns to kill flies.

[Martin]

"Its always been only about them and what works best for them."

Is that not something that could be said about each and every nation state?

I can't think of any 'Government' that appoints itself, or gets consensus to it being the ruling group, or is elected, that goes into office to be altruistic to other nation states.

The best will prove to be operating a policy of enlightened self-interest in 'what works for them'.

For Thailand, it has always had, and will always have, big 'uns to the East and big 'uns to the West.

So self-protection must come first, and come from 'playing of the one against the other'.

As to 'rich and poor', I think that if someone was destined to be poor, they would be better off being poor in Thailand than in any other sizeable country. I can't speak from first hand experience of living among the urban poor, but I don't hear of them going hungry and nearly starving to death. And, certainly, the rural poor who I observe are not.

It looks to me that, although there is always room for improvement, the Thais are 'a most favoured nation' with the country having lots of fertile land relative to its size of population and a clement climate.

As the world de-industrialises (as it will, now that it has exhausted the easily-mined stores of fuels and mineral ores), Thailand seems better-placed to manage the transition than the bigger nations, and many of the smaller nations.

Of course, that won't go unnoticed, and it will have to look to what works best for it---like making sure that its riches don't get bought out cheaply by foreign capitalists hiding behind nominees.

[johnnyk]

There have been and there are nation states that do have a vision beyond narrow self-interest.

[Erwin1011]

There have been and there are nation states that do have a vision beyond narrow self-interest.

Like ?

[womble]

Perhaps there are nations that help out other nations, but they all sort themselves out first.

[johnnyk]

There have been and there are nation states that do have a vision beyond narrow self-interest.

Like ?

USA post WW1, Marshall Plan post WW2, Peace Corps, CUSO etc

Have a look at foreign aid figures for Scandi nations like Norway for example.

Of course all nations have to look out for themselves but I said "narrow" self-interest.

In other words, gestures that help lead to a better world.

Not all nations have strategic/military/territorial/economic agendas as the sum of their vision and relationships with the rest of the world.

How many doctors, nurses, teachers, school, hospitals does Thailand finance in poorer countries?

I'm not knocking them, just stating what I consider to be fact.