Thaksin Will Return With Pride And Dignity

[Ricardo]

Or on the other hand a Thaksin-style one-conglomerate-party democracy, with a heavily-controlled media and political thugs on the streets, which can lead in the direction of Marcos & the Philippines.

Personally I would rather something in-between the two different visions.

[hammered]

Or on the other hand a Thaksin-style one-conglomerate-party democracy, with a heavily-controlled media and political thugs on the streets, which can lead in the direction of Marcos & the Philippines.

Personally I would rather something in-between the two different visions.

we arent exactly spoilt for choice right now. I agree something in between would be better.

[younghusband]

Given the poor quality of Thai politicians I can see that this is a tempting thesis.However I fear you may be overrating the competence and integrity of Thai bureaucrats (though some are certainly first class).The trouble is that along with the ghastly personalities, the mess, noise and vote buying there is through politicians a connection with the people's will which would never be there with bureaucrats in charge.And of course the country cannot throw bureaucrats out.

I have no illusions about bureaucrats shortcomings but I'm very very suspicious about politicians providing connection with the will of people. Can you give an example? Policies like 30 baht scheme, village fund and Otop were examples of top down approach, people had no say in their formulation, they just bought them as a package. All along Thaksin's mantra has been 'I can take better care of you than anyone else' which is a competition among "I know the best, you just listen to me" types. It's not about people's will, it's about their shopping preferences.

There's a chance that an honest politician won't be able to implement some good ideas that express the will of people because of constitutional restrictions, but what is a real chance of that happening? Slim to none.

You are correct that there is little evidence of linkage in Thailand.This is surely due to the undeveloped nature of Thai democracy, compounded by the generally venal political class.You are also right that the policies of the last government were top down in character, but nevertheless they did serve to politicise the rural majority.Why else do all the political parties fighting the forthcoming election incorporate large wedges of "populist" policies clearly borrowed from the TRT? I'm not sure the distiction between political will and shopping list is as clear as you suggest.Unfortunately one of the characteristics of democracy tends to be individual selfishness on the part of the voter.Again I think it's the role of politicians and political parties to encourage vision, patriotism and social cohesion.We know that the generally unsavoury lot on offer (Abhisit -on whom the jury is out- apart) will not do this.Inevitably politics here is going to become more class based, and possibly even more vicious.By this I'm not suggesting revolution or the barricades being manned, more a bitter battle for fairer allocation of resources.

Back to topic I'm not sure about pride and dignity, but I'm becoming increasingly convinced it's only a matter of time before Thaksin returns (but years away rather than months).Meanwhile storm clouds are gathering.There's little reason other than to feel despondent, but I would dearly love to be proved wrong.

Edited December 5, 2007 by younghusband

[Zpete]

Why should Thaksin bother to return.

He is well set up abraod.

Coming home would just entail victmisation and enmity.

I am no fan of Thaksin, but there would be no fair deals for him.

NO JUSTICE

[John K]

Why should Thaksin bother to return.

He is well set up abraod.

Coming home would just entail victmisation and enmity.

I am no fan of Thaksin, but there would be no fair deals for him.

NO JUSTICE

I guess you have not been following the news much, the quality of recent court ruling as been on par with the west. It gives Thaksin the chance to clear his name. That is what Thaksin fears, a true fair ruling.

Edited December 6, 2007 by John K

[Plus]

There's a lot of sense in consitutionally restricting how much damage politicians can possibly inflict.

Well, that's an opinion. Of course it's not a democracy anymore then, but something very different.

Why not? It's just separation of powers. MPs are supposed to be lawmakers, not executives, and the government has never been an elected body, btw. People do not even vote for Prime Minister let alone for important Cabinet posts. In fact many ministers in the government weren't even MPs, it's not a requirement.

How's that form of democracy any different, or more democratic, than the one where bureaucrats can legally counterbalance unelected ministers?

Ideally the ministers should be responsible before the people, but there has never been a direct connection. Who is supposed to run checks on them? Their boss, who gets elected once in four years on a whole different set of issues, or bureaucrats who raise red flags on very specific problems?

[chanchao]

Why should Thaksin bother to return.

He is well set up abraod.

Coming home would just entail victmisation and enmity.

I am no fan of Thaksin, but there would be no fair deals for him.

NO JUSTICE

I guess you have not been following the news much, the quality of recent court ruling as been on par with the west.

[chanchao]

There's a lot of sense in consitutionally restricting how much damage politicians can possibly inflict.

Well, that's an opinion. Of course it's not a democracy anymore then, but something very different.

Why not? It's just separation of powers. MPs are supposed to be lawmakers, not executives, and the government has never been an elected body, btw. People do not even vote for Prime Minister let alone for important Cabinet posts. In fact many ministers in the government weren't even MPs, it's not a requirement.

Ok, it works (or rather 'should work') very similar to the UK system. The PM is not elected directly, but is de-facto the leader of the biggest political party that can get a parliamentary majority. In principle this is a democratic system, many many countries work this way including Holland, Spain, Norway, Sweden etc.

How's that form of democracy any different, or more democratic, than the one where bureaucrats can legally counterbalance unelected ministers?

Bureaucrats are not elected and do not have any responsibility to the people. The minister of any department remains the one who's responsible.

Ideally the ministers should be responsible before the people, but there has never been a direct connection. Who is supposed to run checks on them?

Parliament.

Really, the model has been tried and tested all over the world for a hundred years. It's not without flaw, but no other form has proven as fair, so far.

I guess what you're suggesting is basically something like Singapore, or Hong Kong.

[Prakanong]

Why should Thaksin bother to return.

He is well set up abraod.

Coming home would just entail victmisation and enmity.

I am no fan of Thaksin, but there would be no fair deals for him.

NO JUSTICE

I guess you have not been following the news much, the quality of recent court ruling as been on par with the west.

Chanchao - some people live in la la land

I think he is influenced by the girls in AngelWitch!

[Plus]

How's that form of democracy any different, or more democratic, than the one where bureaucrats can legally counterbalance unelected ministers?

Bureaucrats are not elected and do not have any responsibility to the people. The minister of any department remains the one who's responsible.

In practice Thais can never find anyone responsible for any screw up. Ministers just don't stay long enough and they can always shift the blame on someone who was there before or after them. They usually nhold the top bureaucrats responsible first anyway. They might just as well put that in law.

Really, the model has been tried and tested all over the world for a hundred years. It's not without flaw, but no other form has proven as fair, so far.

Thailand has been trying religiously follow it for seventy years, too, but whatever you call Thai system of government, fair it is not.

I guess what you're suggesting is basically something like Singapore, or Hong Kong.

Perhaps, if you have the right people in charge. Unfortunately Thailand doesn't have human resources to run a clean government. They've been trying to run a clean bureaucracy, though. It's far from perfect but under Thaksin it was unfairly squeezed, imo.

Singapore doesn't qualify as a democracy in my book, I'd rather take messy Thai freedom over Singaporean order, btw. Granted it works, but you'd have to put up and shut up to survive there.

[Prakanong]

"Singapore doesn't qualify as a democracy in my book, I'd rather take messy Thai freedom over Singaporean order, btw. Granted it works, but you'd have to put up and shut up to survive there."

It is a very strange system down her. I have no doubt PAP would win outright even if they opened up but they will not.

They have a very Asian attitude to those below them - recently the PM was criticising quite venally members of the opposition who stood for Parliament who were not elected - bullying I would call it

Well when old Harry slips his mortal coil there might be more opening up - the post-65 generation seem to have some different idea's - not many but maybe a little hope.

Singapore uses libel laws and Thailas uses lese majeste!

Each country will have to face up to a watershed when the patriach of the nation is no longer around

[younghusband]

Why should Thaksin bother to return.

He is well set up abraod.

Coming home would just entail victmisation and enmity.

I am no fan of Thaksin, but there would be no fair deals for him.

NO JUSTICE

I guess you have not been following the news much, the quality of recent court ruling as been on par with the west. It gives Thaksin the chance to clear his name. That is what Thaksin fears, a true fair ruling.

When you say west you are presumably referring to Saudi Arabia? If you are referring to Western Europe,the U.S or Australia you are living in a fantasy world.Ask any international lawyer in Bangkok.

As to Thaksin nobody unconsumed by prejudice seriously believes he would be treated fairly by the justice system now.Doesn't mean he shouldn't face various charges.Whether he ever will I don't know.

[Tony Clifton]

Why should Thaksin bother to return.

He is well set up abraod.

Coming home would just entail victmisation and enmity.

I am no fan of Thaksin, but there would be no fair deals for him.

NO JUSTICE

I guess you have not been following the news much, the quality of recent court ruling as been on par with the west. It gives Thaksin the chance to clear his name. That is what Thaksin fears, a true fair ruling.

When you say west you are presumably referring to Saudi Arabia? If you are referring to Western Europe,the U.S or Australia you are living in a fantasy world.Ask any international lawyer in Bangkok.

As to Thaksin nobody unconsumed by prejudice seriously believes he would be treated fairly by the justice system now.Doesn't mean he shouldn't face various charges.Whether he ever will I don't know.

Why then is he still using the same justice system himself or through puppet proxies over and over to throw lawsuits of his own?

[cclub75]

Thaksin is already here ! Maybe... he never left ?

Look at the non sense the Electoral Commission is saying...

“Related agencies are being pressured by Election Commission (EC) member Sodsri Sattiyatham to speed up an investigation into the hi-thaksin.net website, formed by staunch supporters of the ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

The investigation was ordered after People Power party (PPP) leader Samak Sundaravej recently claimed through the website that Mr Thaksin had already returned to Thailand." (Bangkok Post)

Did Samak really say that ?

Soon, the EC will tell us that Thaksin is an alien, coming to Thailand inside a flying saucer.

Edited December 6, 2007 by cclub75

[John K]

I stand by what I said, I am very impressed with the rulings of the courts in Thailand, particularly so after the judges had a few visits with HRH. Looking back to when Thaksin was in office, it is like night and day. If you wish to mock that, that is entirely up to you but put some hard facts behind your words and not just an empty statement as it reflects on you.

[sriracha john]

The investigation was ordered after People Power party (PPP) leader Samak Sundaravej recently claimed through the website that Mr Thaksin had already returned to Thailand." (Bangkok Post)

Did Samak really say that ?

What exactly does the website itself say?

Has Samak never made an incredulous statement before?

Edited December 7, 2007 by sriracha john

[younghusband]

I stand by what I said, I am very impressed with the rulings of the courts in Thailand, particularly so after the judges had a few visits with HRH. Looking back to when Thaksin was in office, it is like night and day. If you wish to mock that, that is entirely up to you but put some hard facts behind your words and not just an empty statement as it reflects on you.

I'm not mocking simply expressing what those familiar recognise with the Thailand legal system know to be a fact.Whether you are impressed with the courts' rulings is completely beside the point.As I earlier commented don't just rely on my opinion (ask any experienced lawyer familiar with the sysyem, whether foreigner or Thai).This doesn't mean there aren't plenty of first class lawyers and judges doing their best to improve the position.

[John K]

However, the PPP, which houses many former Thai Rak Thai Party members, has promised that it will invite Thaksin as the party's chairman of the advisory board if PPP won the upcoming general election on Dec. 23, despite that the EC said the invitation is not proper.

This single statement just says it all. Arrogance, disrespect for the court or any other body of authority, self serving.

Still full of anger and rage seeking revenge, not a nice bunch of folks here. Let us hope the EC puts them out of their misery soon.

[younghusband]

However, the PPP, which houses many former Thai Rak Thai Party members, has promised that it will invite Thaksin as the party's chairman of the advisory board if PPP won the upcoming general election on Dec. 23, despite that the EC said the invitation is not proper.

This single statement just says it all. Arrogance, disrespect for the court or any other body of authority, self serving.

Still full of anger and rage seeking revenge, not a nice bunch of folks here. Let us hope the EC puts them out of their misery soon.

It's difficult to take seriously this kind of pompous outrage at PPP's alleged defiance of authority when its author is such an enthusiastic supporter of a criminal and illegal coup which overturned the wishes of the Thai majority and has brought the country to its current desperate state.You can be sure however that this fellow doesn't get the irony.

Edited December 7, 2007 by younghusband

[John K]

However, the PPP, which houses many former Thai Rak Thai Party members, has promised that it will invite Thaksin as the party's chairman of the advisory board if PPP won the upcoming general election on Dec. 23, despite that the EC said the invitation is not proper.

This single statement just says it all. Arrogance, disrespect for the court or any other body of authority, self serving.

Still full of anger and rage seeking revenge, not a nice bunch of folks here. Let us hope the EC puts them out of their misery soon.

It's difficult to take seriously this kind of pompous outrage at PPP's alleged defiance of authority when its author is such an enthusiastic supporter of a criminal and illegal coup which overturned the wishes of the Thai majority and has brought the country to its current desperate state.You can be sure however that this fellow doesn't get the irony.

Sep 20, 8:18 AM EDT

Thai king endorses coup leader as head of governing council

BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) -- Thailand's King Bhumibol Adulyadej on Wednesday endorsed a coup leader to head the new governing council, according to a televised announcement.

"In order to create peace in the country, the king appoints Gen. Sondhi Boonyaratkalin as head of the council of administrative reform," according to the announcement on state-run television.

"All people should remain peaceful and civil servants should listen to order from Gen. Sondhi Boonyaratkalin from now on."

The king's endorsement is widely seen as giving legitimacy to the new Council of Administrative Reform.

Sondhi led a takeover overnight without firing a shot, sending soldiers and tanks to guard major intersections and surround government buildings while the popularly elected Thaksin, accused of corruption and undermining democratic institutions, was abroad.

Is this the same coup to which you are referring?

[Ricardo]

Thaksin is already here ! Maybe... he never left ?

....

Soon, the EC will tell us that Thaksin is an alien, coming to Thailand inside a flying saucer.

Perhaps this should form the basis - of a new thread ? Thaksin's relationship to Darth Vader ?? Or his reputed friendship with the Evil Emperor Ming ???

I mean - there was that guy who claims that many world-leaders, such as Bush or the Duke of Edinburgh, are actually alien reptiles, who control the captive human population, through what only appears to be a civilisation. Come to think of it - that theory would explain a lot about the Bush-family...

Oops ... I sense a billion-baht law-suit in-the-offing !

[John K]

[Plus]

..criminal and illegal coup which overturned the wishes of the Thai majority and has brought the country to its current desperate state.

There was no elected government at the moment of the coup and no one knows what the "wishes of the Thai majority" were. There was 80% approval rate for the coup that some people refused to acknowledge. One could argue it was still the best indicator of majority's opinion available at the time.

Current state, with every man and his dog out to campaign in the new election, doesn't look desperate at all. At the moment of the coup no one knew when the elections would happen, would Thaksin run or not, would he have the right to run etc. etc. Not to mention the TRT court case. What would have happened if it was dissolved few months in their new term?

[John K]

..criminal and illegal coup which overturned the wishes of the Thai majority and has brought the country to its current desperate state.

There was no elected government at the moment of the coup and no one knows what the "wishes of the Thai majority" were. There was 80% approval rate for the coup that some people refused to acknowledge. One could argue it was still the best indicator of majority's opinion available at the time.

Current state, with every man and his dog out to campaign in the new election, doesn't look desperate at all. At the moment of the coup no one knew when the elections would happen, would Thaksin run or not, would he have the right to run etc. etc. Not to mention the TRT court case. What would have happened if it was dissolved few months in their new term?

I have made the same post almost exactly word for word to the same group. I am beginning to wonder if they are just having a go for the sake of pretending to be blind, or is the word ‘coup’ to them just as stimulating as the word ‘Sale’ is to some women I know. The word ‘sale’ instantly places them into a hypnotic trance and they head off to the store in search of bargains for things they don’t really need.

[cclub75]

The investigation was ordered after People Power party (PPP) leader Samak Sundaravej recently claimed through the website that Mr Thaksin had already returned to Thailand." (Bangkok Post)

Did Samak really say that ?

What exactly does the website itself say?

Has Samak never made an incredulous statement before?

Sure he did... And Nation and BBK Post are usually the first to "nail" Samak when it's possible.

The problem is : nobody spoke about this "claim", that the EC member is referring to...

I mean : this "claim" is in itself an amazing news (Thaksin already back in Thailand, can you imagine !).

It should have made the headlines... If Samak really said that.

[Tony Clifton]

Even alive, his ghost still haunts the country.

[younghusband]

..criminal and illegal coup which overturned the wishes of the Thai majority and has brought the country to its current desperate state.

There was no elected government at the moment of the coup and no one knows what the "wishes of the Thai majority" were. There was 80% approval rate for the coup that some people refused to acknowledge. One could argue it was still the best indicator of majority's opinion available at the time.

Current state, with every man and his dog out to campaign in the new election, doesn't look desperate at all. At the moment of the coup no one knew when the elections would happen, would Thaksin run or not, would he have the right to run etc. etc. Not to mention the TRT court case. What would have happened if it was dissolved few months in their new term?

We can go over this ground again if you like but I doubt whether much enlightenment will result given entrenched positions.However let me just say that the figure of 80 % is just plucked out of the air, and with respect is fairly meaningless.

[hammered]

..criminal and illegal coup which overturned the wishes of the Thai majority and has brought the country to its current desperate state.

There was no elected government at the moment of the coup and no one knows what the "wishes of the Thai majority" were. There was 80% approval rate for the coup that some people refused to acknowledge. One could argue it was still the best indicator of majority's opinion available at the time.

Current state, with every man and his dog out to campaign in the new election, doesn't look desperate at all. At the moment of the coup no one knew when the elections would happen, would Thaksin run or not, would he have the right to run etc. etc. Not to mention the TRT court case. What would have happened if it was dissolved few months in their new term?

We can go over this ground again if you like but I doubt whether much enlightenment will result given entrenched positions.However let me just say that the figure of 80 % is just plucked out of the air, and with respect is fairly meaningless.

One thing most can probably agree on is thast the coup makers were more popular straight after the coup than they are now, which of course presents them with the election outcome headaches they have now. How popular they were in the immediate aftermath who knows. How many surveys go into the rural backwoods to guage sentiment?

[John K]

That is why it is #1 priority of Thaksin and the PPP to quickly trash the new constitution.

Ousted Thai PM Thaksin calls for unity government

HONG KONG (Reuters) - Ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said on Friday Thailand should install a national unity government to rule for two years after this month's elections and then hold another poll under a new constitution.

Thaksin insisted in an interview with Reuters in Hong Kong he would never be prime minister again. He said the military junta that overthrew him in a coup last year would harm the country if it tried to rig the Dec. 23 general election.

"Why don't we do national reconciliation by having a national unity government," said Thaksin, who won two landslide election victories and ruled for six years.

"If you take it seriously, and if you push ahead with the plan, I think two years should be about the time to bring back our unity, bring back our full democracy and let the people decide again."

The People Power Party (PPP), taken over by Thaksin supporters after his party was dissolved for electoral fraud, is widely expected to win the most seats on Dec. 23.

But it is also expected to fall short of a majority because of a new constitution designed to prevent the return of strong, one-party government.

Many analysts believe the military will try to prevent the PPP from heading a coalition government in the 480-seat lower house.

Thaksin, who faces corruption charges, said some elements in the junta that overthrew him were trying to "save face" by aiding his opponents.

"Don't worry about face, worry about the country. If you try to rig the elections, it will get worse," Thaksin said without elaborating.

Thaksin, who is in self-imposed exile and was in Hong Kong to meet Thai golf officials, said he wanted to return to Thailand "yesterday" but would wait until he would be ensured justice and personal security.

"I've had assassination attempts several times, but not while I was away, while I was prime minister," he said.

Now chairman of English Premier League soccer club Manchester City, Thaksin said he wanted to devote his life to charity and set up an international foundation to help the poor in Asia through sport and education.

"I don't want to go back as prime minister, it's too much already," he said. "My wife will divorce me if I go back to politics."

Reuters http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...ec=Worldupdates

Yes sir that pesky constitution with all them nasty sharp teeth has got to go.

[Tony Clifton]

He`s meeting golf officials in Hong Kong and/or his old buddies with whom he had secret political meetings in China?

He`s got some nerve mentioning rigged elections and imaginary assassination attempts.