Thaksin Banned From Entering Thailand

[dukkha]

Toxicity is dangerous for all citizens yes???Dukkha

[Leesoi2]

30 baht medicare?Good way to go bankrupt!!

Interesting comment William...please tell us more.

30 baht medical and the loaning of money to poor people did NOT help them and here is why.

The 30 baht cards made the lines to get medical attention prohibitively long. Many of the doctors quit working in the state run hospitals where the card could be used because they couldn't make a living there so service became scarce at the same time that the demand became high. My wifes grandmother needed an operation but the doctors told her that the waiting list was so long that since she was already old that she would die before her turn came up. They were right.

The million baht loan to each village made many people in our village into debters rather than simply being broke, then they were broke and in debt.

Only the uneducated ever thought Toxin did any good for anybody, he is corrupt and cannot do any good for even himself as his karma will certainly prove.

[lukamar]

Come on guys give your head a shake.. It has little to do with Thaksin directly and everything to do with the foundation the Junta is based on. They just don't have the overwhelming support that they had hoped for, it's as simple as that. Even the Post and the Nation yesterday were openly hinting of a counter coup and the government is just trying to consolidate power, that's all there is to it.

[Foggy Bottom]

The Nation just updated their story:

Update:

Wait another year: Surayud tells Thaksin

BANGKOK: -- Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont has told deposed leader Thaksin Shinawatra to wait until a democratic government is established to return to Thailand, effectively ending the latter's hope to come back to the country in the near future.

......Thaksin, who has made it known that he wishes to return to Thailand from virtual exile in London.........Amid persistent rumours about Thaksin's worsening "homesickness"

Don't worry Dr T - I know of a couple of farangs who sell your favourite Thai sauces and spices on eBay - they'll be very happy to supply you .................. subject to quid peo quo Dual Pricing of course

Yes, but Thaksin did not had the task to please a white-nose. He did great things for the poor and the economy grew on average over 6% a year.

Which is why the average farm household debt in Thailand, in 2000 was B 26,000 and farmers could not keep up with the repayments, but in 2003 after 2 full years of the debt moratorium for farmers, the average was up to B 96,000 - then the moratorium was timed-out in 2004, and in 2005 the property speculators and developers were hiring people to sit in the foyers of banks and scrutinise the latest repossessed-land sales notices as they were pinned up. (Data Source = Chiangmai University Faculty of Economics, Agriculture Review 2004).

Keeping Thaksin away is nothing more than fear. What will they do if he shows up on the streets of Chiangmai? Shoot him on the spot...?

I know quite a few Thais (and a couple of farangs) who profess they would do just that - and they all live in Chiangmai.

Rumours of assisination plots have been filtering down from Chiang Rai for more than 3 years, which is why he never electioneered up there in person.

He is loathed in parts of greater Chiangmai City because of the blatant way in which he funded road improvements and an extra ring road to run from the airport to his uncle & aunt's silk factory - it's the only factory on that road to have a police protection unit over the last 5 1/2 years - I know silk is expensive but that's ridiculous .... and there are bigger factories further out on that road that don't have a protection unit.

In Chiangmai's Chinatown (Worarot Market area) he is totally despised by ethnic Thai-Chinese business owners - I've yet to find one that will say anything good about him, and you'd be surprised at how frank some of them will be (in very good English too).

If I were to tender a criticism of Surayud's stance, it is that he is maybe worrying too much about the level of support for Thaksin up here - locally there are quite a few farang owned newspaper/magazines, and over the years they did a lot of TRT & Thaksin bashing - a lot of of it sunk in with the locals. There are also more farang teachers in Chiangmai City than there are on the whole of Phuket (Work Permit dept figures Nov 2006 - I made the calls) and again, over the years, many of the long-timers have done a lot of ear-bending with college and uni students who are now voters, workers and even business owners.

It's not as cut and dried as Bangkok like to make the nation believe.

Gaz

[bkkandrew]

I think that the problem is that if Thaksin returned, then he would be able to grandstand and generally comment that he was the elected leader of Thailand. The logic in that is true and not argueable with, certainly not by members of the Junta. Foreign countries with limited understanding of the reasons behind the Coup, would place Thailand on a par with Burma and North Korea for imprisoning political opponents, thus giving greater face to Thaksin, now the persecuted.

Surayud knows this and cannot risk the presence of the last democratically elected (no matter how flawed that process was) politician to be in the same country as him, the present, unelected leader. You can imagine the farce of every action taken or proposed by Surayud then being run past Thaksin by the foreign and local media for comment.

He has to ban him, however illogical the prospect of making him stateless, allbeit temporarily, is.

On a final note, it would be a shrewd political move by Thaksin to simply get on TG917 from LHR and when he is turned round, as inevitably be the case, the full force of the UK's asylem system would have to swing into action (as there would be no other grounds for re-entry to UK). This spectacle would be a huge embarressment for the Junta, as similarites could then be drawn with such hotspots as Zimbabwe, Iran, North Korea etc., which all have their fair share of political asylem seekers in the UK.

I like this post as it poses a situation that could become a reality. Just imagine Toxin did get on TG917 and arrive to be turned back. He would indeed be a refugee in England and therefore entitled to all the free handouts available to refugees. Free milk, schooling for the kids, free housing (although he probably has a better quality pad than HMG would allocate), free bus pass and of course a social worker to ease his passage into English society. After a while (3 years) there would be no problem with British Nationality and he could then make his way in the British political system and even end up a Prime Minister. If I had a magic wand I would wish this on the UK just to give the m an idea how a real politico works. Wonder which party he would join?? Possibly "Thaksin (UK) Corp." As part of the EC he could offer advice to all and sundry, he might even decide to buy Turkey or Greece.

Thank you for that. I had not actually projected as far forward as you, but this is interesting.. Perhaps President of EU and then levy sanctions against the Junta??

Edited November 12, 2006 by bkkandrew

[bkkandrew]

"On a final note, it would be a shrewd political move by Thaksin to simply get on TG917 from LHR and when he is turned round, as inevitably be the case, the full force of the UK's asylem system would have to swing into action (as there would be no other grounds for re-entry to UK). This spectacle would be a huge embarressment for the Junta, as similarites could then be drawn with such hotspots as Zimbabwe, Iran, North Korea etc., which all have their fair share of political asylem seekers in the UK."

Only one flaw here, the airline would not let him fly as they would be liable to pay for his return trip.

Actually, there is no basis to refuse him at check-in. He has a Thai Passport and is flying to Thailand. There are laws in the Uk and they are applied regardless... What rule would you suggest they used to refuse to fly him?

[ColPyat]

30 baht medical and the loaning of money to poor people did NOT help them and here is why.

The loan scemes did not help because they were basically populist and implemented without taking the lack of money management skills under the rural poor population into consideration. Nevertheless - the upcountry poor need funds made available to them. And those funds necessarily will need to come from tax payer's pockets.

The 30 Baht sceme was underfunded, but absolutely necessary. And it generally did help a lot. That does not mean that it needs improvement (and, no, making it free is no improvement, it is only another populist method).

A reason for longer waiting times is, that people actually can get treatment now. Before they did not go to a hospitals as treatment was too expensive.

Without the thirty baht sceme, most Aids patients in Thailand would be dead by now as they could not afford the tests and antiretrovirals.

[cclub75]

A very good article in the Nation, about something that should ban Thaksin to come back. Ever.

Forget about Shin, scams, tax evasion, corruption.

The man is simply a murderer.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/13...on_30018782.php

Unfortunatly, this is the most sensitive issue : security forces were involved.

So it would be difficult in a country like Thailand to bring them to justice...

[Johpa]

Can he stop Thaksin from returning?

Regards

can you stop a Thai citizen from returning?

Martial Law says it all. Under ML they can make breaking wind illegal if they so wish - may not be a bad idea, can see all the full cheeks now. :whistling:555

Taksin is certainly not the first PM forced into exile after a coup. Thanom was forced into exile back in 1973. Other notable Thais have also been sent into exile. The oddest perhaps being Sulak Sivaraksa's partially self-imposed exile for lese majeste charges despite the fact that he is a conservative and ardent monarchist. And at least one other very high sakdina ranked person was once sent into exile to England for a year for misbehaving well beyond the pale of already minimal acceptable Thai behavior. And this is what happened to Taksin as his practices to enrich his personal coffers reached, yes a bit hard to believe, yet a new nadir for such nefarious activities by the Thai elite.

Alas, for those of us who have been observing Thai politics for decades, when the scoundrels who comprise the Thai elite send someone into exile, it usually means the bar for corrupt and bad behavior has been reset to yet a new low.

[lukamar]

The man is simply a murderer.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/13...on_30018782.php

Unfortunatly, this is the most sensitive issue : security forces were involved.

So it would be difficult in a country like Thailand to bring them to justice...

I lived in Chiang Mai and Phayao during that time and there was no outcry about it. Most people especially in the villages that were affected by drug trafficking actually embraced the action. Even now, if you went to some of the villages you would find that it is still one of the things that made life better for them and they still support the action that was taken.

[Blue Whale]

Thaksin cannot return for at least a year: Surayud

BANGKOK: -- Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont said Sunday that he would not allowed his predecessor Thaksin Shinawatra to return to Thailand for at least a year.

He said Thaksin should wait until a new government is elected in a year before returning to Thailand.

"The best way is that Thaksin should wait until the problems have been solved during the year ahead. When there is an election and a new government, it will be a proper time [for Thaksin to return to Thailand], Surayud said.

Surayud said it was inappropriate to allow Thaksin to return and put him under a house arrest as suggested by former prime minister Chavalit Yongchaiyud as doing so would be similar to an action of the Burmese military government.

-- The Nation 2006-11-12

if he re turns illegally he should be hung!!

JR Texas (51, USA): It is unfortunate that, even though Thaksin is out of the country, his xenophobic ideas and beliefs regarding foreigners--ideas and beliefs that are currently underpinning the new visa/business rules and regulations--remain.

The new govt. can and should prevent him from coming back. And, if it truly wants to improve the economy and Thailand's relationship with foreigners, it can and should remove his ideas as well.

Thailand is at an important crossroads. This new change of power is an opportunity to bring Thailand into the 21st century. To do that, the ruling elite must create a system that fosters economic growth, especially in terms of small business creation and investment by small scale foreign entreprenuers.

Worldwide, the vast majority of jobs are created by small scale businesses, not MNCs (job growth among the latter is actually on the decline in the USA). For example, over 95% of all jobs in the USA are the product of small scale businesses.

Make some simple changes to the now Draconian and overly complex visa/business rules and regulations and Thailand will be on the road to recovery. Trillions of baht in investment money will flow into Thailand. Hundreds of thousands of jobs will be created.

Maintain the status quo in terms of the visa/business rules and regulations, and the opposite will happen. The vast majority of Thais will suffer. And down the road an explosive situation will most certainly materialize.

There is no need to fear change. Those in power (the ruling elite) can retain their power and wealth. A few strategic and positive changes will lead to more wealth and an enlargement of the economic pie. A win-win situation can be created. But not with Thaksins ideas and beliefs underpinning future change.

I hope the new govt. does what is right for the vast majority of Thais and not simply what is right for the 1% of ruling elites who stand at the top of the corporate-political-military triangle of power.

Time will tell.

I like this guy! So simply put and powerful! I have not figured it out myself. Wish I knew! Have alot invested in this little country! Wish it the best! But see fear and pain ahead. Hope they can maintain a government! Thais don't seem to mind who is in government, as long as they don't feel any pain! It is the same everywhere.

[dotcom]

Chavalit, is smarter than most of his fellow generals. They accused Thaksin of cronyism, the fact is that our friends are putting their men in all kind of positions. Sadly enough also in companies that have a SET listing. He is spot on when he accuses our friends of having one eye on Thaksin who is a citizen which they can not bar (though Thailand did not sign many human rights treaties anyhow) and one eye on the money. At least they have a great Christmaas with lots of presents paid for by the Stockholders. Never invest too much in thai stocks is the lesson.

Ironic isn't it that our old friend - who oversaw the emptying out of the nation's treasury in the bumbling attempt to prop up the baht in 1997 - is still a major player?

Does anyone remember that as TRT rolled up all the opposition parties into one that Chavalit was given a fat Ministers portfolio to keep him happy?

How nice that it is he now driving a knife into the back of his former "comrade". Crooks the lot. New & old.

When will Thailand rid itself of robbers like Chavalit?

btw - make that "Former General" - now fat cat & robber at large.

Edited November 12, 2006 by dotcom

[francois]

So much for his Suwarnabhumi airport "return with dignity". There would be anti and pro-Thaksin there to greet him and maybe confrontations, that the country doesn't need for a while, even if only verbal.

Smart move.

You seem to forget that even if he made some money xtra, his the only one that made life a little bit better for the pour people, 30 bath for Medicare, and prolonging school instead 6 to 8 years and some more.

The airport has Been projected since 30 years back and all the involved at that time before Thaksin got rich.

Now junta wants to reverse all those things like Medicare for 30 bath and all the good things that came out of Thaksins 6 years and putting Thailand back 30 years in history, I cant see that this is what you want

You're so right! they want to scrap the 30 Baht medicare system and replace it with a free one.

There has not been one single negative move since 19 September.

It has all been for the common good, and that is what democracy is all about (isn't it)

hi'

sure!

democracy is when people are not allowed to stay talking together more than a few if not will be considered as a demonstration ...

answer to question ; no, it is not!

[noodle]

No, democracy is mostly about elections.

or, if you prefer a better worded definition:

Actually democracy is about being ruled 99.9% of the time.

The other 0.1% is the day you surrender to a party dictatorship.

[helicoptor]

He could come on a tourist visa

[Bagwan]

[quote

if he re turns illegally he should be hung!!

He is according to Mrs Thaksin.

He holds a diplomatic passport and I understand that once issued they never expire. Since he has not been charged with any crime my guess is he can go wherever he likes. Devil's Island is nice this time of year. St. Helena?

[lukamar]

No, democracy is mostly about elections.

or, if you prefer a better worded definition:

Actually democracy is about being ruled 99.9% of the time.

The other 0.1% is the day you surrender to a party dictatorship.

Or the correct one... From Webster's Dictionary..

de·moc·ra·cy

a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation involving periodically held free elections

coup d'état

a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics; especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

There is a fundamental difference between an elected government and one that is installed. If a single party, as said by a respected member of Thai Society, is undemocratic and not good for Thailand, then a system with no parties - has to be even less democratic and more harmful..

[cdnvic]

He holds a diplomatic passport and I understand that once issued they never expire. Since he has not been charged with any crime my guess is he can go wherever he likes. Devil's Island is nice this time of year. St. Helena?

Diplomatic passports, like any passport, is property of the issuing government and can be cancelled at any time by the issuing government.

That would make Mr T a stateless refugee and seriously curtail his travels.

[Martin]

I think that we Western-centrics tend to underestimate how far Thai society, in its many classes and groupings, is from having any fundamental belief in democracy.

Compared to the countries in which we had our upbringings, the mindset in Thailand that Society is, and should go on being, ordered as a hierarchy-decided-by-birth is much stronger.

And, with all due respect to Webster's, the definition above only refers to the political manifestation of belief in democracy.

It will be generations (if ever) before there is a population here that doesn't accept that the 'accident' of birth should inherently put an individual in a largely-unalterable position of privilege.

I say 'if ever' because the belief in karma is so strong. And that belief strongly 'legitimises' hierarchical privilege. There won't be much hope unless and until it is joined by a widespread belief in 'noblesse oblige'.

One of the paradoxes of Thaksin is that he was very undemocratic in his way of governing, but that to get to being 'Guvnor' he promised to advance the build-up of a possible onset of democratic spirit by increasing secondary education, and he promised a major 'levelling-up' between poor and rich by introducing 30-baht hospital consultation.

And, though I don't like defending Thaksin, I must, in all fairness, point out that he delivered on those promises.

[opothai]

taksin knows thailand

and for him to return i do not think he can predict the outcome let alone the people he will upset by setting such a challenge.

and as it is marshall law the government can literaly impose any punishment they deem fit at that particular time.

imho i think it would be foolhardy of taksin to challenge the present regime.

[Artisan]

The crash was in 1996.........

July 1997 actually

[John K]

I think that a counter coup is a possibility if martial law persists. By banning Thaksin from the country, and perhaps from politics if the TRT dissolves this week. My initial feeling it the coup was a good thing and if it takes a while to insure Thaksin does not return to power then I can wait. However like most I want to see regular progress reports.

It would seem that some parts of the country martial law could be lifted, and others like the north should stay.

I know the law about dissolving parties says if you quit the party before it is dissolved you get your get out of jail free card. I hope and suggest that the new government makes changes to that so that the people involved in the wrong doings will lose their incentive to cause problems behind the scenes that are prolonging martial law. Meaning that if you were active in the party when the crimes were committed you go down with the ship.

[vinny]

He holds a diplomatic passport and I understand that once issued they never expire.

Diplomatic passports do expire and have to be renewed or extended, similar to any other type of passports.

Edited November 13, 2006 by vinny

[brahmburgers]

JR Texas: Once again, I think it important to understand that the new visa/business rules and regulations are the product of Thaksin's thinking. They are Thaksins' rules and regulations. They remain even in his absence. The new rules/regs. did not suddenly appear after he was tossed out.

During his tenure Thaksin made significant changes to the visa/business rules and regulations, making it more and more difficult/expensive for foreigners to live and/or work in the Kingdom.

The new govt. can do more than simply ban him from coming back to Thailand. They can also throw his outdated and destructive ideas out along with him, especially those related to the visa/business rules and regulations that are crippling Thailand's economy and hurting foreign investment.

point well taken. Thai governments in general and this one in particular are adept at spinning their wheels and getting nowhere fast. It stems from their school system of 'don't rock the boat' - 'don't get any creative ideas that might embarass someone senior or important' ...so even when a selcet few bright Thais they want to effect changes, there is too much inertia in the system to do anything tangible.

[Bottlerocket]

As members of the United Nations and signatory party to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Thailand will be in direct violation of Article 13, paragraph 2 which states:

2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

He cannot be banned, even temporarily, from returning to his country, especially in regard to the reasons stated. The junta basically wants to eliminate his participation in any future democratic process. Are they going to put him on house arrest and prevent him from pursuing his political rights every four years for the rest of his life?

I'm not a fan of his, but whether we like him or not, he is entitled to equal protection under international law and Thailand has an obligation to uphold their commitments to the UN.

[brahmburgers]

Regardless of all the rhetoric, fact remains: Thaksin and his family, and by extension, the TRT honchos who ripped off billions from Thailand - are teflon coated. In other words, none of the thieves will get busted in any real sense. There are endless commitees, and commitees to investigate former commitees, and excuses from those who were in charge and made glaring mistakes - many of whom remain in power positions. What will it take for Thai leaders to effect tangible change for the better? We need more Jaruvans and Porntips who aren't afraid to stand up to the powers-that-be who continually shield rich, well-connected thieves from consequences. It's a sad commentary on Thai bureaucracy that the two bravest governmental leaders are both women - and because they're female - get shouted down whenever they come close to busting one of the bad guys.

[Scott]

Bottlerocket got it right. The Thai gov't really can't ban him from entering the country. It is possible, but they will be in direct violation of some pretty important and basic laws and this will cause them more trouble than it's worth.

It's easy enough to detain him if he comes. Especially with martial law not allowing over 5 people gathering for political purposes. How long before a few TRT cronies meet with him--boom--they arrest them all.

[Gonzo the Face]

30 baht medicare?Good way to go bankrupt!!

Interesting comment William...please tell us more.

How about something like this:

Thaksin started talking about and put into effect the 30 health care program; Fact

This program was in effect for the people at selected hospitals; Fact

No way can you get X-Rays. Doctor Check ups, Medicine, Operations, not to mention the operation of the physical hospital plant, i.e. electric, water, misc bills like salaries etc for 30 B; Fact

About 2-3 years after this 30 Baht program went into effect, various hospital administrators were being brought up on charges of malfeasance, because they couldn't cope with receiving 30 baht income, while still having big expense; Fact

The "government" is supposedly picking up the difference, supposedly??? and who is the government?? ;Fact

In the words of a former US Congressman "There just ain't no Santa Claus"

Or

"Only on da sermun on de side of the mountain, can people take our more fishes and loaves then iz put in"

Only one thing is for certain in this program and that is , "this was a goody program to garner votes for Thaksin and nothing to do with helping the "pour" people

Edited November 13, 2006 by Gonzo the Face

[dr_Pat_Pong]

taksin knows thailand

and for him to return i do not think he can predict the outcome let alone the people he will upset by setting such a challenge.

and as it is marshall law the government can literaly impose any punishment they deem fit at that particular time.

imho i think it would be foolhardy of taksin to challenge the present regime.

It'd be a certain stay in the jailhouse if he did.

[Gonzo the Face]

As members of the United Nations and signatory party to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Thailand will be in direct violation of Article 13, paragraph 2 which states:

2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

He cannot be banned, even temporarily, from returning to his country, especially in regard to the reasons stated. The junta basically wants to eliminate his participation in any future democratic process. Are they going to put him on house arrest and prevent him from pursuing his political rights every four years for the rest of his life?

I'm not a fan of his, but whether we like him or not, he is entitled to equal protection under international law and Thailand has an obligation to uphold their commitments to the UN.

Interesting submission Bottlerocket, but let me just guess [from your avatar] that you may be from the US. Would you think that the US might have, or has violated any of the UN Articles which you submit. .... or may be doing so everyday, as suits their needs of the moment ????