Bringing Thaksin To Account

[blaze]

Inquiry set up into drug war killings

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont yesterday signed an order to establish an independent committee to investigate the extra-judicial killings of more than 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs. The panel, headed by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is made up of 12 members, including senior criminal justice officials, law enforcement officers, and human rights defenders. Its other members are permanent-secretary for justice Jarun Pukditanakul, his deputies Kittipong Kitayarak and Charnchao Chaiyanukij, former Nakhon Ratchasima senator Kraisak Choonhavan, the Office of the Narcotics Control Board's secretary-general Kitti Limchaikij, and assistant national police chief Pol Lt-Gen Wanchai Srinualnat. The committee will hold its first meeting next week. The establishment of the inquiry committee was applauded by human rights defenders. Somchai Homla-or, secretary-general of the Human Rights and Development Foundation, said he appreciated the government's initiative because most of those killed during the war on drugs were believed to be innocent. ''The death of some 2,500 drug suspects is one of the worst human rights violations of this country,'' said Mr Somchai.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/15Aug2007_news08.php

I was hesitating to comment because it is an extremely difficult and sensitive subject: "The death of some 2,500 drug suspects"

The same link in the Bangkok Post also says:

"Saneh Chamrik, chairman of the National Human Rights Commission, said his panel had investigated the killings and found innocent people had also been murdered."

If that's true [to be proved, yet] it's horrible for the innocent people, their families and friends involved.

However, we seem to forget HOW BAD and devastating drugs are in this country and how many people are killed, year-in-year out because of drugs, in Thailand !

One of the most kind, respected and esteemed members on Thaivisa recently almost lost his wife because she was 'fed' by so called friends with the same drugs, Yaba* in this case.

The outcome and effects of this 'killing' drug is so terrible that almost nobody can even imagine what this drug does to the life(s) of the people involved.

I'm not saying that the death of the 2,500 are/were justified or not; I just wish that readers, here on TV, take a moment of silence and think WHAT horror those drugs do to the people in Thailand, their families ands friends...

*Yaba: http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs5/5048/

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaba_(drug)

LaoPo

Drug problems or for thast matter any severe societal problems however bad they get need to be dealt with within the framework of the law. Now if the law is deemed to weak or not enough of a deterrent then a goverment could enact legislation to make it stronger. For example legislation could have been passed that all convicted ya-ba dealers would automatically receive the death penalty. Personally I do not agree with such a barbaric and inhumane state punishmnet but that option was open to the authorities if they wanted to legally off drug dealers under democratic process. In many ways they were hamstrung by their own inabaility to introduce effective laws or effective deterrents not to mention their own parties links to the trade, but that was no excuse to say OK lets screw the law and just kill anyone we or our police buddies think are drug dealers (not on our side). Even by going the legislation route they could have still left all their TRT canvassing drug dealers alone as there was no need to actually have their police buddies lift them. All in all my feeling is that as with many things the government just decided this is easy and it will be popular in a kind of lynch mob manner so lets do it. Screw any legal niceties.

Would you apply the same logic to governments that are perceived to be damaging the country? Should they also receive legal protection- the ease with which many Thais accepted the drug war has an analogy in the ease with which many accepted the tearing up of the constitution. Those who condemn the extra-judicial solutions to the drug wars MUST also condemn the extra constitutional solutions to the political impasse.

Those who supported the killings proudly announced- the checks and balances weren't working. We had no choice. Sound familiar?

We heard at the time of the drug war that it was justified because the society was being destoryed. We heard at the time of the coup that it was justified because the society was, "on the verge of becoming a failed state'.

And many, even now, when confronted with the inescapable evidence that innocents were murdered, will say, "yes but that was an unintended consequence and really- things are better now." (Or they would have said that shortly after the war when the dealers had either gone deeper or been killed). And some people say now, 'yes the dictatorship was illegal but things are better now.'

Perhaps- and it's a big perhaps- the nation learnned that there is NO excuse for cirucumventing the law= when it comes to drugs. And not this coup- but in a coup to come- and there will be coups to come, given the abiding popularity of this one- society will learn that same lesson. The hard way.

Personally and I am talking personally here as obviously the peole of Thailand see things differently from me, I do see that things should be dealt with through the law in any case. By the way I also think that is wrong to try and seperate the 2500 or whatver it was dead into the "innocent" and the "drug dealers" Nobody was ever convicted before a court and therefore all were legally innocent if one is to believe in democratic principles.

At some time yes government leaders, coupists whoever must be held to account for breaches of law. Persoanlly I wouldnt mind seeing that day now. However, there wouldnot be many politicans left at all in Thailand if all were held to account for their crimes. That may actually be a good thing but obviously isnt going to happen right now. Thai society is changing. What we see now is a vicious power play not on an ideological level but on a pure winner takes all power level unless some unlikely looking compromise can suddenly be found. That in time Thai society will outdistance itself from any of the strangely allied protagonists is inevitably going to happen. However, in the meantime we will no doubt see more human rights abuses although I really hope no more killings. Those who enact these should be held in front of a court of law. It is just that I choose to feel more strongly about the denial of the least controversial human right of a right to not be killed in making the arguements I have here. That is just what I find most objectionable as a human. That is not to say others should not be held accountable for what they have done in other cases, and I support anyone genuinely trying to bring to light abuses independent of politcal interference.

On another point on the drug policy, a government that contols executive and legisature has no need to turn away from the law, not that it should eevr consider this even if it didnt have this, but a government with such power could have tried to do things legally over the drug problems. They did not make one effort. They just turned straight to a final solution and by that showed they had no true democratic credentials, which brings us back to the sad state of Thai democracy, then, now and presumably later.

Not only must actions like the drug war be dealt with later on down the road- but they must be actively opposed at the time. And this didn't happen. It should have but it didn't.

By the same logic, actions like the coup must be opposed. Not down the road- but at the time. And that too didn't happen.

From the perspective of a resident in a neighborhood wracked by drug dealing- the murder on ONE known and highly visable dealer would be deemed acceptable. (Not by me nor by you perhaps, but by the residents of that neighborhood- and if you don't think that's true, go visit some north American communities where no body would bat an eye if a crack house was burned to the ground with all inside toasted- even if the arsonists were police).

But it was this first murder- perhaps of a notoriously violent and bad dealer- one that 'everybody knew' trafficed in yaba and death, that paved the way for the future excesses. Similarly with the coup. The first moment that tanks rolled down the avenue, no matter how benign at that moment, the stage was set for possible escelation. And that possibility remains. It remains because the coupsters have been given a green light by the population to have more coups- just as the lack of opposition to that first murder provided the green light to have more murders.

The real problem with this coup is not that anyone has been killed (that we know of) - but rather that the public has said- there are times when it's ok to circumvent law. As they did after that first murder of a suspected dealer. Even had that first victim of the drug war been selling directly to the cops who shot him, he was still under law, innocent. As you rightly point out. Regardless of what anybody's relatives or market gossip held.

In a kind of reverse way, this coup has paved the way for even more serious abuses. If the coupsters can be excused for the most egregious offense to the law of the land (seizing the government and tearing up the constitution) because they were perceived fighting a greater evil, then more drug wars can similarly be justified. The stage is set- in times of turmoil, forget the law: bring on the iron boot. Expediency above all.

[Siripon]

Inquiry set up into drug war killings

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont yesterday signed an order to establish an independent committee to investigate the extra-judicial killings of more than 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs. The panel, headed by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is made up of 12 members, including senior criminal justice officials, law enforcement officers, and human rights defenders. Its other members are permanent-secretary for justice Jarun Pukditanakul, his deputies Kittipong Kitayarak and Charnchao Chaiyanukij, former Nakhon Ratchasima senator Kraisak Choonhavan, the Office of the Narcotics Control Board's secretary-general Kitti Limchaikij, and assistant national police chief Pol Lt-Gen Wanchai Srinualnat. The committee will hold its first meeting next week. The establishment of the inquiry committee was applauded by human rights defenders. Somchai Homla-or, secretary-general of the Human Rights and Development Foundation, said he appreciated the government's initiative because most of those killed during the war on drugs were believed to be innocent. ''The death of some 2,500 drug suspects is one of the worst human rights violations of this country,'' said Mr Somchai.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/15Aug2007_news08.php

I was hesitating to comment because it is an extremely difficult and sensitive subject: "The death of some 2,500 drug suspects"

The same link in the Bangkok Post also says:

"Saneh Chamrik, chairman of the National Human Rights Commission, said his panel had investigated the killings and found innocent people had also been murdered."

If that's true [to be proved, yet] it's horrible for the innocent people, their families and friends involved.

However, we seem to forget HOW BAD and devastating drugs are in this country and how many people are killed, year-in-year out because of drugs, in Thailand !

One of the most kind, respected and esteemed members on Thaivisa recently almost lost his wife because she was 'fed' by so called friends with the same drugs, Yaba* in this case.

The outcome and effects of this 'killing' drug is so terrible that almost nobody can even imagine what this drug does to the life(s) of the people involved.

I'm not saying that the death of the 2,500 are/were justified or not; I just wish that readers, here on TV, take a moment of silence and think WHAT horror those drugs do to the people in Thailand, their families ands friends...

*Yaba: http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs5/5048/

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaba_(drug)

LaoPo

Drug problems or for thast matter any severe societal problems however bad they get need to be dealt with within the framework of the law. Now if the law is deemed to weak or not enough of a deterrent then a goverment could enact legislation to make it stronger. For example legislation could have been passed that all convicted ya-ba dealers would automatically receive the death penalty. Personally I do not agree with such a barbaric and inhumane state punishmnet but that option was open to the authorities if they wanted to legally off drug dealers under democratic process. In many ways they were hamstrung by their own inabaility to introduce effective laws or effective deterrents not to mention their own parties links to the trade, but that was no excuse to say OK lets screw the law and just kill anyone we or our police buddies think are drug dealers (not on our side). Even by going the legislation route they could have still left all their TRT canvassing drug dealers alone as there was no need to actually have their police buddies lift them. All in all my feeling is that as with many things the government just decided this is easy and it will be popular in a kind of lynch mob manner so lets do it. Screw any legal niceties.

Would you apply the same logic to governments that are perceived to be damaging the country? Should they also receive legal protection- the ease with which many Thais accepted the drug war has an analogy in the ease with which many accepted the tearing up of the constitution. Those who condemn the extra-judicial solutions to the drug wars MUST also condemn the extra constitutional solutions to the political impasse.

Those who supported the killings proudly announced- the checks and balances weren't working. We had no choice. Sound familiar?

We heard at the time of the drug war that it was justified because the society was being destoryed. We heard at the time of the coup that it was justified because the society was, "on the verge of becoming a failed state'.

And many, even now, when confronted with the inescapable evidence that innocents were murdered, will say, "yes but that was an unintended consequence and really- things are better now." (Or they would have said that shortly after the war when the dealers had either gone deeper or been killed). And some people say now, 'yes the dictatorship was illegal but things are better now.'

Perhaps- and it's a big perhaps- the nation learnned that there is NO excuse for cirucumventing the law= when it comes to drugs. And not this coup- but in a coup to come- and there will be coups to come, given the abiding popularity of this one- society will learn that same lesson. The hard way.

Personally and I am talking personally here as obviously the peole of Thailand see things differently from me, I do see that things should be dealt with through the law in any case. By the way I also think that is wrong to try and seperate the 2500 or whatver it was dead into the "innocent" and the "drug dealers" Nobody was ever convicted before a court and therefore all were legally innocent if one is to believe in democratic principles.

At some time yes government leaders, coupists whoever must be held to account for breaches of law. Persoanlly I wouldnt mind seeing that day now. However, there wouldnot be many politicans left at all in Thailand if all were held to account for their crimes. That may actually be a good thing but obviously isnt going to happen right now. Thai society is changing. What we see now is a vicious power play not on an ideological level but on a pure winner takes all power level unless some unlikely looking compromise can suddenly be found. That in time Thai society will outdistance itself from any of the strangely allied protagonists is inevitably going to happen. However, in the meantime we will no doubt see more human rights abuses although I really hope no more killings. Those who enact these should be held in front of a court of law. It is just that I choose to feel more strongly about the denial of the least controversial human right of a right to not be killed in making the arguements I have here. That is just what I find most objectionable as a human. That is not to say others should not be held accountable for what they have done in other cases, and I support anyone genuinely trying to bring to light abuses independent of politcal interference.

On another point on the drug policy, a government that contols executive and legisature has no need to turn away from the law, not that it should eevr consider this even if it didnt have this, but a government with such power could have tried to do things legally over the drug problems. They did not make one effort. They just turned straight to a final solution and by that showed they had no true democratic credentials, which brings us back to the sad state of Thai democracy, then, now and presumably later.

Not only must actions like the drug war be dealt with later on down the road- but they must be actively opposed at the time. And this didn't happen. It should have but it didn't.

By the same logic, actions like the coup must be opposed. Not down the road- but at the time. And that too didn't happen.

From the perspective of a resident in a neighborhood wracked by drug dealing- the murder on ONE known and highly visable dealer would be deemed acceptable. (Not by me nor by you perhaps, but by the residents of that neighborhood- and if you don't think that's true, go visit some north American communities where no body would bat an eye if a crack house was burned to the ground with all inside toasted- even if the arsonists were police).

But it was this first murder- perhaps of a notoriously violent and bad dealer- one that 'everybody knew' trafficed in yaba and death, that paved the way for the future excesses. Similarly with the coup. The first moment that tanks rolled down the avenue, no matter how benign at that moment, the stage was set for possible escelation. And that possibility remains. It remains because the coupsters have been given a green light by the population to have more coups- just as the lack of opposition to that first murder provided the green light to have more murders.

The real problem with this coup is not that anyone has been killed (that we know of) - but rather that the public has said- there are times when it's ok to circumvent law. As they did after that first murder of a suspected dealer. Even had that first victim of the drug war been selling directly to the cops who shot him, he was still under law, innocent. As you rightly point out. Regardless of what anybody's relatives or market gossip held.

In a kind of reverse way, this coup has paved the way for even more serious abuses. If the coupsters can be excused for the most egregious offense to the law of the land (seizing the government and tearing up the constitution) because they were perceived fighting a greater evil, then more drug wars can similarly be justified. The stage is set- in times of turmoil, forget the law: bring on the iron boot. Expediency above all.

But you're forgetting the reason the middle-class welcomed the coup was because they saw that Thaksin was abusing and changing laws for his own vested interests. He prevented the checks and balances set up under the previous constitution from functioning. He wanted a majority of votes to deny any monitoring of government, he wanted to be above the law whilst pretending to be a democrat.

The new constitution, if passed, strengthens the checks and balances, if and it's a big if, the judiciary proves to be truly independent.

But in addition civil society in Thailand is strong and the printed media is free, people don't accept military rule for long.

PM Surayud has constantly stressed the rule of law as paramount for society's development, hence the Thaksin cases proceeding through every legal channel.

[Tony Clifton]

Thais have criticized the coup openly until today.

I still believe that anyone openly criticizing the drug war back then would probably have ended either on one of the lists or simply executed by police hired thugs.

The two do not compare.

[blaze]

Thais have criticized the coup openly until today.

I still believe that anyone openly criticizing the drug war back then would probably have ended either on one of the lists or simply executed by police hired thugs.

The two do not compare.

You honestly believe that the Thais who applauded the drug wars were cowed into doing so? Not the ones I know- nor were they cowed into applauding the coup. They liked 'em both (in fact many of the Thais I know have said that the only good thing Thaksin did was the war on drugs). They liked the quick fix. And legality be damned.

This latest 'investigation' of the drug wars is not in response to Thai sympathies -because most Thais, I will bet, still have very few sympathies about that dark page in Thai history. If they did, they would be demanding hand in hand with that investigation, investigations into Kreu Se and Tak Bai. But I don't see the ground swell for that either.

And yes, the two do compare. In both cases law was circumvented for expediency. Either the law is the law- or it's only the law when it suits our agendas.

[Tony Clifton]

Thais have criticized the coup openly until today.

I still believe that anyone openly criticizing the drug war back then would probably have ended either on one of the lists or simply executed by police hired thugs.

The two do not compare.

You honestly believe that the Thais who applauded the drug wars were cowed into doing so? Not the ones I know- nor were they cowed into applauding the coup. They liked 'em both (in fact many of the Thais I know have said that the only good thing Thaksin did was the war on drugs). They liked the quick fix. And legality be damned.

This latest 'investigation' of the drug wars is not in response to Thai sympathies -because most Thais, I will bet, still have very few sympathies about that dark page in Thai history. If they did, they would be demanding hand in hand with that investigation, investigations into Kreu Se and Tak Bai. But I don't see the ground swell for that either.

And yes, the two do compare. In both cases law was circumvented for expediency. Either the law is the law- or it's only the law when it suits our agendas.

Yes, based on the fact that when I discussed or criticized Thaksin (not the drug war) with Thai friends (back in 2003), they would join in the conversation but would only whisper, making sure the people at the next door shop or people walking around wouldn't hear. People were afraid. My wife also whispered when we first discussed the man in our home. I thought that was pretty strange at the time. She even mentioned back then that my photoshopped pictures of Thaksin would get me in trouble someday.It is my opinion that since they were afraid to openly criticize Thaksin in a normal tone of voice, they wouldn't even dare criticize the drug war.

I can now walk into that shop today and the usual guys hanging there will shout "Thaaaaksin!" while waiting for my reply of "Ok pai laew!"

How they have loosened up in a few years...

Edited August 15, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[sriracha john]

Without usage, there is no production and selling.

With drugs, however, it's the producers of drugs, CREATING demand.

It's like the egg and the chicken....which one was first?

In the interest of redundancy avoidance, I'll leave the unanswerable quandary at that....

---------------------------------------

*edit: Please excuse my slow manners, but thank you for re-opening this thread earlier today, Jai Dee.

Edited August 15, 2007 by sriracha john

[Plus]

Ten years ago there was no ya ba and there was no problem. It was a marketing phenomenon - easy to produce, cheap, easy to use, easy to carry. It certainly drove up the demand and attracted millions of new customers. No messing with rolling up joints, inhaling smoke, or shooting heroin - scary stuff, for hardcore users only.

Does anyone remember how initially Thaksin was angry at the Burmese and swore to wipe out their production facilities, in fact whole towns built on yaba trade? After weighing his options he decided to invest in Burma and kill a few thousand fellow Thais instead.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Plus

[Shah Jahan]

A sadly forgotten aspect of tanksins 'war on drugs' was the wholesale arrest, mock trial and life sentences of many people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

For every person that talksin shot, there are 10 behind jail for life (or very long) sentences. many of these were in fact drug mules and the others were just in the wrong truck or house at the wrong time.

many of these were hill tribe people who are easy scapegoats and unable to defend themselves.

one of the goals of whatever administration ends up with the ball should be to review these quick handed extra long sentences and review whether keeping these folks in jail is really doing them or the public any good.

[sriracha john]

A sadly forgotten aspect of tanksins 'war on drugs' was the wholesale arrest, mock trial and life sentences of many people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

For every person that talksin shot, there are 10 behind jail for life (or very long) sentences. many of these were in fact drug mules and the others were just in the wrong truck or house at the wrong time.

many of these were hill tribe people who are easy scapegoats and unable to defend themselves.

one of the goals of whatever administration ends up with the ball should be to review these quick handed extra long sentences and review whether keeping these folks in jail is really doing them or the public any good.

many Akha are gone, but they are not forgotten....

[jumnien]

It's laughable to hear folks hiding behind the gauze of concern for human rights who are really apologists for the ruthlessness of the Thai military. Karl Rove would be proud of them!

[sriracha john]

laughable

Hi mdeland... might we inquire as to why the change in nicks?

[Shah Jahan]

...

Edited August 16, 2007 by Shah Jahan

[Tony Clifton]

...

This post has been edited by Shah Jahan: Today, 2007-08-16 07:42:33

I'm confused, did you add or remove a dot?

Edited August 16, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[jumnien]

laughable

Hi mdeland... might we inquire as to why the change in nicks?

Thanks, harrassment.

[hammered]

While we talk of human rights abusers has anyone considered that there is the possibility that the next Thai PM will be someone who was at least a cheerleader, and many claim far more than this, for the 1976 massacres not to mention a known book burner? Another massacre with plenty of victims but no perpetrators? It is probably too late to now look back that far in history, but the repeat of these attrocities does highlight that something should be done to investigate the latest one. Things have to start somewhere.

The fact that the next PM or leader of the opposition could be so linked to dark events of the past also does not auger well for the direction Thai politcs is taking, and anyone who thinks he will not head up a fairly large to very large bloc is niaive in my humble opinion if of course chosen as the leader and only the hero of ban ron khlao's sensitivities may be preventing that announcement right now.

[Plus]

He is under fire-truck corruption investigation and in a couple of months he'll be legally prohibited from any political activities.

[sriracha john]

Thaksin May Yet Pay for Bloody 'War-on-Drugs'

BANGKOK - While arrest warrants are being readied for self-exiled, former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra on corruption charges, human rights advocates are keener to see him booked for a murderous campaign he led against drug peddlers four years ago.

On Tuesday, Thailand's Supreme Court approved warrants issued by prosecution to arrest Shinawatra and his wife Pojaman on charges of corruption in controversial land deals in Bangkok. A millionaire in his own right, Thaksin who lives in Britain was in the news recently for his purchase of the prestigious Manchester City premier league football club.

A statement issued by a spokesman for Thaksin attributed political motives on the part of the military government that ousted him from power last September, and suggested that moves to have him arrested or extradited have to do with the ‘’referendum on the constitution taking place later this week’’.

As per the court order, Thaksin and Pojaman have until Sep. 25 to surrender to police, after which date proceedings could be initiated to have them extradited from Britain. On Thursday, Thaksin and his wife were placed on an immigration blacklist that makes them liable to immediate arrest on entry into Thailand.

Thaksin faces several corruption charges and, if convicted, he may no longer be ‘’fit and proper’’ to own Manchester City and the English Premier League may well withdraw certification to that effect that it has granted him.

Among those opposing the mandatory certification for new owners of first-division football clubs in Britain is the New York-based Human Rights Watch (HRW). In a recent letter written to Richard Scudamore, chief executive of the Premier League, HRW drew attention to Thaksin’s brutal ‘war on drugs’.

In 2003 Thaksin gave the green light to the police and other authorities to show no mercy in cracking down on the narcotics trade in the country, in particular the networks supplying methamphetamines. In its letter, HRW recalled lines Thaksin had delivered to justify the blood-bath. ‘’Because drug traders are ruthless to our children, so being ruthless back to them is not a bad thing,’’ Thaksin had said. ‘’It may be necessary to have casualties...If there are deaths among traders, it’s normal,’’ he had added.

The consequences of those words became disturbingly clear early on in the anti-drug drive. During the first three months of that ‘war,’ which began in February that year, over 2,275 people were killed. Other deaths followed as the campaign was extended till the end of 2003.

Among those who lost a relative was Malai Khamjarsai. Her sister and brother-in-law were shot to death on the evening of May 19, 2003, at a security checkpoint near the city of Mae Sot, close to the Thai-Burma border. ‘’Both of them were innocent; they were clean; they only earned money through their transport business,’’ the 40-year-old Malai told IPS this week. ‘’The police and the government did little to investigate at that time.’’

The deaths also resulted in Malai having to care for the two children orphaned due to the deaths of her sister Umpaipan Roopongpraserd, who was 33 years at the time, and her husband, Pongtep who was 44. ‘’They are both boys, 12 and 16 years,’’ she says. ‘’We are still wanting to know why their mother and father were killed.’’

One person who may help is Kanit Na Nakorn, a respected former Thai attorney general, who has been appointed by the post-coup military government to head a committee tasked with uncovering the grisly details related to the ‘war on drugs.’ The delay in such an official inquiry over four years after the murder spree is due to the cold response by the Thaksin administration to stall any investigations into the thousands of extra-judicial killings.

‘’These murders were committed by the police; the policemen were the killers. Yet the government of Thaksin did not bother to conduct any inquiries,’’ Somchai Homlaor, a human rights lawyer, told IPS. ‘’Even complaints by the National Human Rights Commission were ignored. The commissioners submitted many reports on the ‘war on drugs’ to the Thaksin government and also to the United Nations.’’

What troubles Sunai Phasuk, the Thai researcher for HRW, is the line of argument Thaksin and his supporters are presently using to deflect the charges about his role during the bloody crackdown. ‘’Thaksin is asking for fair treatment and that he be considered innocent until proved guilty,’’ says Sunai. ‘’But when he was in power, he never gave his victims a similar chance to prove themselves in court. He ordered them to be killed.’’

The inquiry headed by the former Thai attorney general will help to shed light on another reality, too, Sunai explained during an interview. ‘’There is a need to change the perception in England about who the majority of those killed were. The majority was innocent people, not drug traffickers.’’

- IPS

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38910

[marshbags]

Editorial: Wed, August 15, 2007 : Last updated 21:11

Redressing evils of drug war at last

It is better late than never concerning the investigation into one of the Thaksin era's bloodiest legaciesPublished on August 15, 2007

It seems a little late for the interim Surayud government to be setting up an independent investigative committee to look into alleged systematic human-rights violations carried out by members of the Royal Thai Police in connection with more than 2,500 deaths in the "war against drugs" initiated by former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in 2003. The committee, chaired by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is tasked with finding facts and analysing how the anti-drug campaign was formulated and implemented in such a manner that it resulted in a grievous atrocity in which law-enforcement officials were encouraged with the tacit approval of the then-prime minister to go on a killing spree that left many suspected traffickers dead.

The majority of those killed during the drug war are believed to have been the victims of "extra-judicial killings" committed by police officers, while others may have been "silenced" by fellow drug traffickers. The most disturbing thing at that time was that while the bloody campaign attracted international condemnation for its gross human-rights violations, the majority of the Thai public applauded what Thaksin described as a "zero tolerance" policy against drug traffickers.

I for one do not agree with this as the reality was that Thaksin silenced outcry via threats and media censorship, leaving the desired and phoney effect of him having total / majority approval of Thailands citizens and a licence to murder indiscriminately,

How many on this thread witnessed this actual approval and if you did measure it against the disapproval ? ( not on hear say either ) I certainly did not here in Udonthani or on my travels around the country.

What i did witness was shock, horror and fear " BIG TIME "

Like everything else connected with Thaksin, disapproval was only done in whispers and in private among trusted friends.

In the view of too many Thais back then, the desire to suppress the drug scourge, which was once identified as the number one threat to national security, more than justified the undermining of the rule of law, the trampling of human rights, and the disregard for the due process of law. There were few outcries among members of the Thai public over the drug war partly because most of the victims were known to have led criminal lives or because their families and loved ones lacked the wherewithal to sue the authorities over such crimes.

Thaksin knew that he could get away with all of this, and he was right. He knew he could be successful by manipulating the feelings of many frustrated and worried parents who were fed up with seeing young people addicted to methamphetamines and other drugs that had flooded the streets of Thai cities and towns.

I will never accept that this and from a humanity point of view, had Thai,s been aware of the full implications of the EJK,s at the beginning of it,s enforcement never, never, never, would decent Thai citizens have given him the false approval he claimed he had and i base this on my own personal relationships with everyday meetings and conversation with Thai,s

Thaksin would have found it too time-consuming to try to solve the drug problem in a comprehensive manner, taking into consideration the complicated socio-economic environment that enabled the drug trade to thrive. Thaksin also neglected to deal with the supply side of the equation, although he rightly identified the main source of the drugs - namely the armies of drug warlords operating independently in the Burmese section of the Golden Triangle.

The former prime minister chose instead to offer a quick fix that also boosted his popularity among the gullible members of the public. And the majority of the Thai public bought into his strongman tactics and populism.

The perversion of logic at the time was such that the more the Thaksin administration flouted people's human rights, the higher his approval ratings rose.

This based on his known character / personality, censorship of truth and manipulation of actual facts and figures.

He fed the public what he wanted to happen and they obliged accordingly mostly out of fear to do otherwise.

The tail wagging the dog comes to mind.

Almost four years have elapsed since Thaksin concluded his bloody campaign and, almost one year after the former prime minister was overthrown in a military coup, the Surayud government has decided to investigate the extra-judicial killings. It will be extremely difficult for Khanit's committee to gather sufficient evidence to substantiate the alleged crimes committed by many police officers, let alone to bring to justice the mastermind of such a systematic, bloody campaign. But that doesn't mean the committee should not try its best to bring to justice any and all police officers against whom it can find enough evidence to secure a conviction for the crimes they committed.

Of course, the least the committee can do is find ways to redress the damage done by offering recommendations for the compensation of the families and loved ones of the victims, including the innocent people who were misidentified as suspected drug traffickers as well as the actual drug-trafficking suspects who were murdered by police instead of being given access to the due process of law.

The committee can bring a sense of closure to such state-sponsored terror committed against its own citizens. And members of the Thai public need to learn the right lesson from this ugly episode in Thai politics and their guilty part in it not only for their failure to condemn the bloody campaign while it was underway, but also for offering Thaksin encouragement through the blind adulation of his personality cult.

ref url

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/15...on_30045063.php

marshbags

Edited August 17, 2007 by marshbags

[hammered]

Editorial: Wed, August 15, 2007 : Last updated 21:11

Redressing evils of drug war at last

It is better late than never concerning the investigation into one of the Thaksin era's bloodiest legaciesPublished on August 15, 2007

It seems a little late for the interim Surayud government to be setting up an independent investigative committee to look into alleged systematic human-rights violations carried out by members of the Royal Thai Police in connection with more than 2,500 deaths in the "war against drugs" initiated by former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in 2003. The committee, chaired by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is tasked with finding facts and analysing how the anti-drug campaign was formulated and implemented in such a manner that it resulted in a grievous atrocity in which law-enforcement officials were encouraged with the tacit approval of the then-prime minister to go on a killing spree that left many suspected traffickers dead.

The majority of those killed during the drug war are believed to have been the victims of "extra-judicial killings" committed by police officers, while others may have been "silenced" by fellow drug traffickers. The most disturbing thing at that time was that while the bloody campaign attracted international condemnation for its gross human-rights violations, the majority of the Thai public applauded what Thaksin described as a "zero tolerance" policy against drug traffickers.

I for one do not agree with this as the reality was that Thaksin silenced outcry via threats and media censorship, leaving the desired and phoney effect of him having total / majority approval of Thailands citizens and a licence to murder indiscriminately,

How many on this thread witnessed this actual approval and if you did measure it against the disapproval ? ( not on hear say either ) I certainly did not here in Udonthani or on my travels around the country.

What i did witness was shock, horror and fear " BIG TIME "

Like everything else connected with Thaksin, disapproval was only done in whispers and in private among trusted friends.

In the view of too many Thais back then, the desire to suppress the drug scourge, which was once identified as the number one threat to national security, more than justified the undermining of the rule of law, the trampling of human rights, and the disregard for the due process of law. There were few outcries among members of the Thai public over the drug war partly because most of the victims were known to have led criminal lives or because their families and loved ones lacked the wherewithal to sue the authorities over such crimes.

Thaksin knew that he could get away with all of this, and he was right. He knew he could be successful by manipulating the feelings of many frustrated and worried parents who were fed up with seeing young people addicted to methamphetamines and other drugs that had flooded the streets of Thai cities and towns.

I will never accept that this and from a humanity point of view, had Thai,s been aware of the full implications of the EJK,s at the beginning of it,s enforcement never, never, never, would decent Thai citizens have given him the false approval he claimed he had and i base this on my own personal relationships with everyday meetings and conversation with Thai,s

Thaksin would have found it too time-consuming to try to solve the drug problem in a comprehensive manner, taking into consideration the complicated socio-economic environment that enabled the drug trade to thrive. Thaksin also neglected to deal with the supply side of the equation, although he rightly identified the main source of the drugs - namely the armies of drug warlords operating independently in the Burmese section of the Golden Triangle.

The former prime minister chose instead to offer a quick fix that also boosted his popularity among the gullible members of the public. And the majority of the Thai public bought into his strongman tactics and populism.

The perversion of logic at the time was such that the more the Thaksin administration flouted people's human rights, the higher his approval ratings rose.

This based on his known character / personality, censorship of truth and manipulation of actual facts and figures.

He fed the public what he wanted to happen and they obliged accordingly mostly out of fear to do otherwise.

The tail wagging the dog comes to mind.

Almost four years have elapsed since Thaksin concluded his bloody campaign and, almost one year after the former prime minister was overthrown in a military coup, the Surayud government has decided to investigate the extra-judicial killings. It will be extremely difficult for Khanit's committee to gather sufficient evidence to substantiate the alleged crimes committed by many police officers, let alone to bring to justice the mastermind of such a systematic, bloody campaign. But that doesn't mean the committee should not try its best to bring to justice any and all police officers against whom it can find enough evidence to secure a conviction for the crimes they committed.

Of course, the least the committee can do is find ways to redress the damage done by offering recommendations for the compensation of the families and loved ones of the victims, including the innocent people who were misidentified as suspected drug traffickers as well as the actual drug-trafficking suspects who were murdered by police instead of being given access to the due process of law.

The committee can bring a sense of closure to such state-sponsored terror committed against its own citizens. And members of the Thai public need to learn the right lesson from this ugly episode in Thai politics and their guilty part in it not only for their failure to condemn the bloody campaign while it was underway, but also for offering Thaksin encouragement through the blind adulation of his personality cult.

ref url

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/15...on_30045063.php

marshbags

Marshbags you hit on something that surprisingly few do. Fear. In the villages upcountry if you were not in favor of T and the TRT you had a lot to fear and if you actually spoke out that could be fatal. Few and probably none amongst those who worship him ever mention what was a harsh reality. Maybe many on this board do not know villages well enough but I woulf have thought the likes of Giles and Weng may have had a concern over this. When you add on the deaths of 2500+ innocents (none were ever found guilty), the deaths of witnesses against the family, the beatings of opposition supporters you can see why people were scared and even more so if you were known not to be a TRT liker or you just happened to have a slight family feud with the TRT handlers in the village. Then most could tell you the names of the TRT canvassing drug dealers who surprisingly were never touched in the mass slaughter.

[blaze]

Editorial: Wed, August 15, 2007 : Last updated 21:11

Redressing evils of drug war at last

It is better late than never concerning the investigation into one of the Thaksin era's bloodiest legaciesPublished on August 15, 2007

It seems a little late for the interim Surayud government to be setting up an independent investigative committee to look into alleged systematic human-rights violations carried out by members of the Royal Thai Police in connection with more than 2,500 deaths in the "war against drugs" initiated by former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in 2003. The committee, chaired by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is tasked with finding facts and analysing how the anti-drug campaign was formulated and implemented in such a manner that it resulted in a grievous atrocity in which law-enforcement officials were encouraged with the tacit approval of the then-prime minister to go on a killing spree that left many suspected traffickers dead.

The majority of those killed during the drug war are believed to have been the victims of "extra-judicial killings" committed by police officers, while others may have been "silenced" by fellow drug traffickers. The most disturbing thing at that time was that while the bloody campaign attracted international condemnation for its gross human-rights violations, the majority of the Thai public applauded what Thaksin described as a "zero tolerance" policy against drug traffickers.

I for one do not agree with this as the reality was that Thaksin silenced outcry via threats and media censorship, leaving the desired and phoney effect of him having total / majority approval of Thailands citizens and a licence to murder indiscriminately,

How many on this thread witnessed this actual approval and if you did measure it against the disapproval ? ( not on hear say either ) I certainly did not here in Udonthani or on my travels around the country.

What i did witness was shock, horror and fear " BIG TIME "

Like everything else connected with Thaksin, disapproval was only done in whispers and in private among trusted friends.

In the view of too many Thais back then, the desire to suppress the drug scourge, which was once identified as the number one threat to national security, more than justified the undermining of the rule of law, the trampling of human rights, and the disregard for the due process of law. There were few outcries among members of the Thai public over the drug war partly because most of the victims were known to have led criminal lives or because their families and loved ones lacked the wherewithal to sue the authorities over such crimes.

Thaksin knew that he could get away with all of this, and he was right. He knew he could be successful by manipulating the feelings of many frustrated and worried parents who were fed up with seeing young people addicted to methamphetamines and other drugs that had flooded the streets of Thai cities and towns.

I will never accept that this and from a humanity point of view, had Thai,s been aware of the full implications of the EJK,s at the beginning of it,s enforcement never, never, never, would decent Thai citizens have given him the false approval he claimed he had and i base this on my own personal relationships with everyday meetings and conversation with Thai,s

Thaksin would have found it too time-consuming to try to solve the drug problem in a comprehensive manner, taking into consideration the complicated socio-economic environment that enabled the drug trade to thrive. Thaksin also neglected to deal with the supply side of the equation, although he rightly identified the main source of the drugs - namely the armies of drug warlords operating independently in the Burmese section of the Golden Triangle.

The former prime minister chose instead to offer a quick fix that also boosted his popularity among the gullible members of the public. And the majority of the Thai public bought into his strongman tactics and populism.

The perversion of logic at the time was such that the more the Thaksin administration flouted people's human rights, the higher his approval ratings rose.

This based on his known character / personality, censorship of truth and manipulation of actual facts and figures.

He fed the public what he wanted to happen and they obliged accordingly mostly out of fear to do otherwise.

The tail wagging the dog comes to mind.

Almost four years have elapsed since Thaksin concluded his bloody campaign and, almost one year after the former prime minister was overthrown in a military coup, the Surayud government has decided to investigate the extra-judicial killings. It will be extremely difficult for Khanit's committee to gather sufficient evidence to substantiate the alleged crimes committed by many police officers, let alone to bring to justice the mastermind of such a systematic, bloody campaign. But that doesn't mean the committee should not try its best to bring to justice any and all police officers against whom it can find enough evidence to secure a conviction for the crimes they committed.

Of course, the least the committee can do is find ways to redress the damage done by offering recommendations for the compensation of the families and loved ones of the victims, including the innocent people who were misidentified as suspected drug traffickers as well as the actual drug-trafficking suspects who were murdered by police instead of being given access to the due process of law.

The committee can bring a sense of closure to such state-sponsored terror committed against its own citizens. And members of the Thai public need to learn the right lesson from this ugly episode in Thai politics and their guilty part in it not only for their failure to condemn the bloody campaign while it was underway, but also for offering Thaksin encouragement through the blind adulation of his personality cult.

ref url

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/15...on_30045063.php

marshbags

Marshbags you hit on something that surprisingly few do. Fear. In the villages upcountry if you were not in favor of T and the TRT you had a lot to fear and if you actually spoke out that could be fatal. Few and probably none amongst those who worship him ever mention what was a harsh reality. Maybe many on this board do not know villages well enough but I woulf have thought the likes of Giles and Weng may have had a concern over this. When you add on the deaths of 2500+ innocents (none were ever found guilty), the deaths of witnesses against the family, the beatings of opposition supporters you can see why people were scared and even more so if you were known not to be a TRT liker or you just happened to have a slight family feud with the TRT handlers in the village. Then most could tell you the names of the TRT canvassing drug dealers who surprisingly were never touched in the mass slaughter.

All of which (fear as a tool to surpress the ingrained Thai appreciation of human rights) explains the clamor for a genuine investigation into Kreu Se and Tak Bai? There is a clamor isn't there- now that the fear factor has been reduced?

[hammered]

Editorial: Wed, August 15, 2007 : Last updated 21:11

Redressing evils of drug war at last

It is better late than never concerning the investigation into one of the Thaksin era's bloodiest legaciesPublished on August 15, 2007

It seems a little late for the interim Surayud government to be setting up an independent investigative committee to look into alleged systematic human-rights violations carried out by members of the Royal Thai Police in connection with more than 2,500 deaths in the "war against drugs" initiated by former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in 2003. The committee, chaired by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is tasked with finding facts and analysing how the anti-drug campaign was formulated and implemented in such a manner that it resulted in a grievous atrocity in which law-enforcement officials were encouraged with the tacit approval of the then-prime minister to go on a killing spree that left many suspected traffickers dead.

The majority of those killed during the drug war are believed to have been the victims of "extra-judicial killings" committed by police officers, while others may have been "silenced" by fellow drug traffickers. The most disturbing thing at that time was that while the bloody campaign attracted international condemnation for its gross human-rights violations, the majority of the Thai public applauded what Thaksin described as a "zero tolerance" policy against drug traffickers.

I for one do not agree with this as the reality was that Thaksin silenced outcry via threats and media censorship, leaving the desired and phoney effect of him having total / majority approval of Thailands citizens and a licence to murder indiscriminately,

How many on this thread witnessed this actual approval and if you did measure it against the disapproval ? ( not on hear say either ) I certainly did not here in Udonthani or on my travels around the country.

What i did witness was shock, horror and fear " BIG TIME "

Like everything else connected with Thaksin, disapproval was only done in whispers and in private among trusted friends.

In the view of too many Thais back then, the desire to suppress the drug scourge, which was once identified as the number one threat to national security, more than justified the undermining of the rule of law, the trampling of human rights, and the disregard for the due process of law. There were few outcries among members of the Thai public over the drug war partly because most of the victims were known to have led criminal lives or because their families and loved ones lacked the wherewithal to sue the authorities over such crimes.

Thaksin knew that he could get away with all of this, and he was right. He knew he could be successful by manipulating the feelings of many frustrated and worried parents who were fed up with seeing young people addicted to methamphetamines and other drugs that had flooded the streets of Thai cities and towns.

I will never accept that this and from a humanity point of view, had Thai,s been aware of the full implications of the EJK,s at the beginning of it,s enforcement never, never, never, would decent Thai citizens have given him the false approval he claimed he had and i base this on my own personal relationships with everyday meetings and conversation with Thai,s

Thaksin would have found it too time-consuming to try to solve the drug problem in a comprehensive manner, taking into consideration the complicated socio-economic environment that enabled the drug trade to thrive. Thaksin also neglected to deal with the supply side of the equation, although he rightly identified the main source of the drugs - namely the armies of drug warlords operating independently in the Burmese section of the Golden Triangle.

The former prime minister chose instead to offer a quick fix that also boosted his popularity among the gullible members of the public. And the majority of the Thai public bought into his strongman tactics and populism.

The perversion of logic at the time was such that the more the Thaksin administration flouted people's human rights, the higher his approval ratings rose.

This based on his known character / personality, censorship of truth and manipulation of actual facts and figures.

He fed the public what he wanted to happen and they obliged accordingly mostly out of fear to do otherwise.

The tail wagging the dog comes to mind.

Almost four years have elapsed since Thaksin concluded his bloody campaign and, almost one year after the former prime minister was overthrown in a military coup, the Surayud government has decided to investigate the extra-judicial killings. It will be extremely difficult for Khanit's committee to gather sufficient evidence to substantiate the alleged crimes committed by many police officers, let alone to bring to justice the mastermind of such a systematic, bloody campaign. But that doesn't mean the committee should not try its best to bring to justice any and all police officers against whom it can find enough evidence to secure a conviction for the crimes they committed.

Of course, the least the committee can do is find ways to redress the damage done by offering recommendations for the compensation of the families and loved ones of the victims, including the innocent people who were misidentified as suspected drug traffickers as well as the actual drug-trafficking suspects who were murdered by police instead of being given access to the due process of law.

The committee can bring a sense of closure to such state-sponsored terror committed against its own citizens. And members of the Thai public need to learn the right lesson from this ugly episode in Thai politics and their guilty part in it not only for their failure to condemn the bloody campaign while it was underway, but also for offering Thaksin encouragement through the blind adulation of his personality cult.

ref url

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/15...on_30045063.php

marshbags

Marshbags you hit on something that surprisingly few do. Fear. In the villages upcountry if you were not in favor of T and the TRT you had a lot to fear and if you actually spoke out that could be fatal. Few and probably none amongst those who worship him ever mention what was a harsh reality. Maybe many on this board do not know villages well enough but I woulf have thought the likes of Giles and Weng may have had a concern over this. When you add on the deaths of 2500+ innocents (none were ever found guilty), the deaths of witnesses against the family, the beatings of opposition supporters you can see why people were scared and even more so if you were known not to be a TRT liker or you just happened to have a slight family feud with the TRT handlers in the village. Then most could tell you the names of the TRT canvassing drug dealers who surprisingly were never touched in the mass slaughter.

All of which (fear as a tool to surpress the ingrained Thai appreciation of human rights) explains the clamor for a genuine investigation into Kreu Se and Tak Bai? There is a clamor isn't there- now that the fear factor has been reduced?

Blaze

I am talking about the TRTs use of fear to keep criticism of it low to virtually zero in some areas and to ensure the opposotion would not canvass. I wouldnt expect the ordinary Thai person to suddenly take a risk by standing up for human rights overnight. By the way there is now more criticism of TRT and dear leader even at village level as one would expect.

I thought that Marshbags identifying of the TRT fear factor was something quite unique compared to the usual rhetoric on this board and made a general comment.

[ColPyat]

Marshbags you hit on something that surprisingly few do. Fear. In the villages upcountry if you were not in favor of T and the TRT you had a lot to fear and if you actually spoke out that could be fatal. Few and probably none amongst those who worship him ever mention what was a harsh reality. Maybe many on this board do not know villages well enough but I woulf have thought the likes of Giles and Weng may have had a concern over this. When you add on the deaths of 2500+ innocents (none were ever found guilty), the deaths of witnesses against the family, the beatings of opposition supporters you can see why people were scared and even more so if you were known not to be a TRT liker or you just happened to have a slight family feud with the TRT handlers in the village. Then most could tell you the names of the TRT canvassing drug dealers who surprisingly were never touched in the mass slaughter.

And what has changed now?

The fear is now even worse - if you are anti coup you have to be even more scared. We still have martial law in many areas. Opponents are openly intimidated, their material is confiscated. Just read the many articles on Prachathai.com concerning that subject.

And mentioning Giles and Dr. Weng (and i would like to mention Jaran as well) - those did in the days of the drug war openly oppose the TRT government, while the vocal Thaksin opposition of later days, and the military collaborated during the drug war.

Yes, i would love to see an investigation, impartial and fully, against TRT, Thaksin, and including the members of this government, the media, the clergy and the military, the police, who have all collaborated during the killings.

[blaze]

Editorial: Wed, August 15, 2007 : Last updated 21:11

Redressing evils of drug war at last

It is better late than never concerning the investigation into one of the Thaksin era's bloodiest legaciesPublished on August 15, 2007

It seems a little late for the interim Surayud government to be setting up an independent investigative committee to look into alleged systematic human-rights violations carried out by members of the Royal Thai Police in connection with more than 2,500 deaths in the "war against drugs" initiated by former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in 2003. The committee, chaired by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is tasked with finding facts and analysing how the anti-drug campaign was formulated and implemented in such a manner that it resulted in a grievous atrocity in which law-enforcement officials were encouraged with the tacit approval of the then-prime minister to go on a killing spree that left many suspected traffickers dead.

The majority of those killed during the drug war are believed to have been the victims of "extra-judicial killings" committed by police officers, while others may have been "silenced" by fellow drug traffickers. The most disturbing thing at that time was that while the bloody campaign attracted international condemnation for its gross human-rights violations, the majority of the Thai public applauded what Thaksin described as a "zero tolerance" policy against drug traffickers.

I for one do not agree with this as the reality was that Thaksin silenced outcry via threats and media censorship, leaving the desired and phoney effect of him having total / majority approval of Thailands citizens and a licence to murder indiscriminately,

How many on this thread witnessed this actual approval and if you did measure it against the disapproval ? ( not on hear say either ) I certainly did not here in Udonthani or on my travels around the country.

What i did witness was shock, horror and fear " BIG TIME "

Like everything else connected with Thaksin, disapproval was only done in whispers and in private among trusted friends.

In the view of too many Thais back then, the desire to suppress the drug scourge, which was once identified as the number one threat to national security, more than justified the undermining of the rule of law, the trampling of human rights, and the disregard for the due process of law. There were few outcries among members of the Thai public over the drug war partly because most of the victims were known to have led criminal lives or because their families and loved ones lacked the wherewithal to sue the authorities over such crimes.

Thaksin knew that he could get away with all of this, and he was right. He knew he could be successful by manipulating the feelings of many frustrated and worried parents who were fed up with seeing young people addicted to methamphetamines and other drugs that had flooded the streets of Thai cities and towns.

I will never accept that this and from a humanity point of view, had Thai,s been aware of the full implications of the EJK,s at the beginning of it,s enforcement never, never, never, would decent Thai citizens have given him the false approval he claimed he had and i base this on my own personal relationships with everyday meetings and conversation with Thai,s

Thaksin would have found it too time-consuming to try to solve the drug problem in a comprehensive manner, taking into consideration the complicated socio-economic environment that enabled the drug trade to thrive. Thaksin also neglected to deal with the supply side of the equation, although he rightly identified the main source of the drugs - namely the armies of drug warlords operating independently in the Burmese section of the Golden Triangle.

The former prime minister chose instead to offer a quick fix that also boosted his popularity among the gullible members of the public. And the majority of the Thai public bought into his strongman tactics and populism.

The perversion of logic at the time was such that the more the Thaksin administration flouted people's human rights, the higher his approval ratings rose.

This based on his known character / personality, censorship of truth and manipulation of actual facts and figures.

He fed the public what he wanted to happen and they obliged accordingly mostly out of fear to do otherwise.

The tail wagging the dog comes to mind.

Almost four years have elapsed since Thaksin concluded his bloody campaign and, almost one year after the former prime minister was overthrown in a military coup, the Surayud government has decided to investigate the extra-judicial killings. It will be extremely difficult for Khanit's committee to gather sufficient evidence to substantiate the alleged crimes committed by many police officers, let alone to bring to justice the mastermind of such a systematic, bloody campaign. But that doesn't mean the committee should not try its best to bring to justice any and all police officers against whom it can find enough evidence to secure a conviction for the crimes they committed.

Of course, the least the committee can do is find ways to redress the damage done by offering recommendations for the compensation of the families and loved ones of the victims, including the innocent people who were misidentified as suspected drug traffickers as well as the actual drug-trafficking suspects who were murdered by police instead of being given access to the due process of law.

The committee can bring a sense of closure to such state-sponsored terror committed against its own citizens. And members of the Thai public need to learn the right lesson from this ugly episode in Thai politics and their guilty part in it not only for their failure to condemn the bloody campaign while it was underway, but also for offering Thaksin encouragement through the blind adulation of his personality cult.

ref url

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/15...on_30045063.php

marshbags

Marshbags you hit on something that surprisingly few do. Fear. In the villages upcountry if you were not in favor of T and the TRT you had a lot to fear and if you actually spoke out that could be fatal. Few and probably none amongst those who worship him ever mention what was a harsh reality. Maybe many on this board do not know villages well enough but I woulf have thought the likes of Giles and Weng may have had a concern over this. When you add on the deaths of 2500+ innocents (none were ever found guilty), the deaths of witnesses against the family, the beatings of opposition supporters you can see why people were scared and even more so if you were known not to be a TRT liker or you just happened to have a slight family feud with the TRT handlers in the village. Then most could tell you the names of the TRT canvassing drug dealers who surprisingly were never touched in the mass slaughter.

All of which (fear as a tool to surpress the ingrained Thai appreciation of human rights) explains the clamor for a genuine investigation into Kreu Se and Tak Bai? There is a clamor isn't there- now that the fear factor has been reduced?

Blaze

I am talking about the TRTs use of fear to keep criticism of it low to virtually zero in some areas and to ensure the opposotion would not canvass. I wouldnt expect the ordinary Thai person to suddenly take a risk by standing up for human rights overnight. By the way there is now more criticism of TRT and dear leader even at village level as one would expect.

I thought that Marshbags identifying of the TRT fear factor was something quite unique compared to the usual rhetoric on this board and made a general comment.

Marshbags (and earlier, Tony Clifton) have suggested that that the drug war was NOT popular among the general populace- that in fact, the gen populace only accepted it because they were terrified to question it. And my experience in talking about this with Thais at the time- and since, in fact, is very different . I was appalled by the indifference at best shown in private conversations with Thais- and outright support by most.

And I am confident that this support was not because they thought I was a TRT stooge.

But then too, I also know that were the police to surreptitiously get rid of all the suspected crack dealers in any Canadian city- the response from MUCH of the public =particulraly in neighborhoods most affected by crack- would be quiet approval. I expect no better from Thais in a similar situation- and experience bore that out.

[hammered]

Marshbags you hit on something that surprisingly few do. Fear. In the villages upcountry if you were not in favor of T and the TRT you had a lot to fear and if you actually spoke out that could be fatal. Few and probably none amongst those who worship him ever mention what was a harsh reality. Maybe many on this board do not know villages well enough but I woulf have thought the likes of Giles and Weng may have had a concern over this. When you add on the deaths of 2500+ innocents (none were ever found guilty), the deaths of witnesses against the family, the beatings of opposition supporters you can see why people were scared and even more so if you were known not to be a TRT liker or you just happened to have a slight family feud with the TRT handlers in the village. Then most could tell you the names of the TRT canvassing drug dealers who surprisingly were never touched in the mass slaughter.

And what has changed now?

The fear is now even worse - if you are anti coup you have to be even more scared. We still have martial law in many areas. Opponents are openly intimidated, their material is confiscated. Just read the many articles on Prachathai.com concerning that subject.

And mentioning Giles and Dr. Weng (and i would like to mention Jaran as well) - those did in the days of the drug war openly oppose the TRT government, while the vocal Thaksin opposition of later days, and the military collaborated during the drug war.

Yes, i would love to see an investigation, impartial and fully, against TRT, Thaksin, and including the members of this government, the media, the clergy and the military, the police, who have all collaborated during the killings.

Hi Colpyat

I remember a time when the level of fear was a lot lower than under T or now, and when oppositions could canvass countrywide and people could talk more openly and the press was freer. It wasnt that long ago. That is the sad thing. Thailand has regressed in terms of freedom and ablity to criticise since the advent of the T government. I am not arguing there is limited freedom now after all what do we expect under a military government. However for a democratic government to start it all with what looking back on it sems like a plan to introduce a Singapore style system on Thailand!

[ColPyat]

Hi Colpyat

I remember a time when the level of fear was a lot lower than under T or now, and when oppositions could canvass countrywide and people could talk more openly and the press was freer. It wasnt that long ago. That is the sad thing. Thailand has regressed in terms of freedom and ablity to criticise since the advent of the T government. I am not arguing there is limited freedom now after all what do we expect under a military government. However for a democratic government to start it all with what looking back on it sems like a plan to introduce a Singapore style system on Thailand!

Yes, i remember that time as well.

I am disgusted though at the level of applause the military government receives here also on this forum. Yes, we know, the drugwar killings happened under Thaksin, and i would love to see him at court being charged, together with his many collaborators below and above.

But lets not forget one thing here, please: the coup happened 3 years after the killings. During the killing spree the military, the clergy and most that made up the PAD applauded, supported and collaborated in the drug war killings. Would a coup have happened during that time - i would have supported a coup. But then it did not happen.

But, given the time lapse and the more than lackluster investigations into the killings (nearly a year post coup, and we are still at the stage of forming "commissions" - generally an excuse of not willing to do anything while appearing the opposite) - we can pretty much exclude the drug war killings being any reason for the overthrow of Thaksin.

And lets please not revise history here - Thaksin's popularity was at an all time high during the drug war. I wish it would be different.

What many of us foreigners, and a minority of Thais, feel towards the drug war killings - unfortunately this is not reflected in either the powers that are, or Thai society in general. That is why main emphasis has been given to investigations against comparable minor charges such as the Ratchada land deal, and other difficult to prove corruption charges, and not the drug war killings.

[ColPyat]

And i would like to remind people here as well, that the person who made the decision of storming the Krue Sue Mosque against the orders of then Defense Minister Chavalit to negotiate a solution - Gen. Panlop Pinmanee, former head of an execution squad, is now special public relations adviser for ISOC.

Until today the military officers that made the decisions at Tak Bai remain unpunished (well, any further than the transfer with which they were "punished" under the TRT government).

Edited August 17, 2007 by ColPyat

[A_Traveller]

The other tragedy here is the official attitude to these events outside Thailand, e.g. the 2007 UN WHO World Drugs Report

In 2005, a continued decline in methamphetamine abuse (methamphetamine pills or ‘yaba’) was reported by Thailand. This followed a forceful intervention by the Thai authorities in the market in 2003, which resulted in a decline in methamphetamine abuse, but unfortunately also in a significant number of casualties.

In 2003, following the authorities’ intervention on the methamphetamine market, there was a massive increase in demand for treatment which helped eliminate a large number of potential consumers from the market.

Pgs 155 & 156

My emphasis.

Regards

/edit format //

Edited August 17, 2007 by A_Traveller

[A_Traveller]

And i would like to remind people here as well, that the person who made the decision of storming the Krue Sue Mosque against the orders of then Defense Minister to negotiate - Gen. Panlop Pinmanee, former head of an execution squad, is now special public relations adviser for ISOC.

Until today the military officers that made the decisions at Tak Bai remain unpunished (well, any further than the transfer with which they were "punished" under the TRT government).

One should also recall that there was a very strong suggestion that he did not act without 'top cover' at the Mosque.

Regards

PS Any see his interview on the TV last night, I missed it?

[ColPyat]

And i would like to remind people here as well, that the person who made the decision of storming the Krue Sue Mosque against the orders of then Defense Minister to negotiate - Gen. Panlop Pinmanee, former head of an execution squad, is now special public relations adviser for ISOC.

Until today the military officers that made the decisions at Tak Bai remain unpunished (well, any further than the transfer with which they were "punished" under the TRT government).

One should also recall that there was a very strong suggestion that he did not act without 'top cover' at the Mosque.

Regards

PS Any see his interview on the TV last night, I missed it?

I just saw the last bits of it.

Yes, there is a lot of "top cover" for many things happening here...

[hammered]

Hi Colpyat

I remember a time when the level of fear was a lot lower than under T or now, and when oppositions could canvass countrywide and people could talk more openly and the press was freer. It wasnt that long ago. That is the sad thing. Thailand has regressed in terms of freedom and ablity to criticise since the advent of the T government. I am not arguing there is limited freedom now after all what do we expect under a military government. However for a democratic government to start it all with what looking back on it sems like a plan to introduce a Singapore style system on Thailand!

Yes, i remember that time as well.

I am disgusted though at the level of applause the military government receives here also on this forum. Yes, we know, the drugwar killings happened under Thaksin, and i would love to see him at court being charged, together with his many collaborators below and above.

But lets not forget one thing here, please: the coup happened 3 years after the killings. During the killing spree the military, the clergy and most that made up the PAD applauded, supported and collaborated in the drug war killings. Would a coup have happened during that time - i would have supported a coup. But then it did not happen.

But, given the time lapse and the more than lackluster investigations into the killings (nearly a year post coup, and we are still at the stage of forming "commissions" - generally an excuse of not willing to do anything while appearing the opposite) - we can pretty much exclude the drug war killings being any reason for the overthrow of Thaksin.

And lets please not revise history here - Thaksin's popularity was at an all time high during the drug war. I wish it would be different.

What many of us foreigners, and a minority of Thais, feel towards the drug war killings - unfortunately this is not reflected in either the powers that are, or Thai society in general. That is why main emphasis has been given to investigations against comparable minor charges such as the Ratchada land deal, and other difficult to prove corruption charges, and not the drug war killings.

The problem is that when Thailand has strong government either elected or miliary then it tends to be authoritarian or worse. That leaves a big conundrum if the people really want strong government (not sure on that) how do you ensure it will not be authoritarian or worse murderous? Thailand has a long way to go. Democracy as we know is about a lot more than elections and the development of what we call civil society and other democratic institution is where Thailand is way off the game although as it was feudal only a bunch of decades ago probably only to be expected. Thailand is howeevr, like many developing countries way up on the elections which do not mean democracy on their own but keep you in with the powerful world players of the US and EU. A kind of partial democracy without the other stuff in which checks and balances only exist through coalition government. The step to single party government was a backward one in terms of democratic development, freedom and openness with the only effective check and balance suddenly removed and the newly legislated ones too open to interference or too unsure of themselves to be effective. Of course military governments should never be praised either.

By the way I am not disputing the drug war was popular, not that that makes it any more accptable. I was making a general point about the use of fear for other purposes ie retaining power and information flow control.