Bringing Thaksin To Account

[marshbags]

Add to this the Shin Corp revelations that happened prior to this that started the setting in motion, relinquishing / total grip on power and final actions to take away his misuse of authority, it was an obvious scenario that one thing or another was going to happen.

Thank whoever you wish, but in my case god, it wasn,t the other !!!!!!!!!

There is much yet to come regarding his callas / evil authority and his role as leader and overseer as the stones continue to turn over.

To indicate that he could not have proceeded without consent / order of higher ups makes a mockery of the facts and his inability to listen / take notice of such observations unless it was to his selfish benefit and is beyond my comprehension.

There is much yet to come regarding his callas / evil authority and his role as leader and overseer, as the stones continue to turn over and KARMA catches up with him and his associates.

marshbags

And not one comment on the death squads who are killing people TODAY!

That is beyond my comprehension - you people go on and on about Thaksin, but it has been now two or three days since i posted an article in several threads that is showing light on vigilante groups which are committing extra-judicial killings today - and not one of you "human rights" advocates even feel that this is even worth a comment.

It seems to me that you only care about hating Thaksin, and human rights violations are just one of the tools that enable you to hate Thaksin.

It obviously doesn't bother you that severe human rights violations happen under this leadership as well.

Any alledged H.R.Isues relevant to the present time will be addressed as a matter of course.

Those related to Thaksin are after all a priority considering they did happen, are proven by self association and publicity and are long overdue in relation to the time scale.

This in turn was of course due to his refusal to co-operate with multiple requests to investigate / get answers to questions and concerns that were put to him.

For the record, C.P.

All H.R.Abuses of recent times should be investigated without favour and those responsible for them, made accountable for their actions / involvement in any such incidents, ( Proven of course as in Thaksins case and not hear say )

My own concerns are not in the context you suggest, but my views on what humanity is all about and how we all, as part of the Human Race, have in my opinion a duty to address, while protecting the unfortunate victims where ever possible.

Not a sermon by the way, just simply what motivates me to be constantly involved in all abuses.

Let me assure you that any future ( proven ) H.R.Issues I am aware of, will get the same considerations.

The tools i have for disliking Thaksin are well deserved and due to his abuse in office, along with his Honest / Dishonest representations of his years in office and all the implications to the above highlighted in bold that he is infamously acredited with via his own words and actions therein

marshbags

Edited September 10, 2007 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

Add to this the Shin Corp revelations that happened prior to this that started the setting in motion, relinquishing / total grip on power and final actions to take away his misuse of authority, it was an obvious scenario that one thing or another was going to happen.

Thank whoever you wish, but in my case god, it wasn,t the other !!!!!!!!!

There is much yet to come regarding his callas / evil authority and his role as leader and overseer as the stones continue to turn over.

To indicate that he could not have proceeded without consent / order of higher ups makes a mockery of the facts and his inability to listen / take notice of such observations unless it was to his selfish benefit and is beyond my comprehension.

There is much yet to come regarding his callas / evil authority and his role as leader and overseer, as the stones continue to turn over and KARMA catches up with him and his associates.

marshbags

And not one comment on the death squads who are killing people TODAY!

That is beyond my comprehension - you people go on and on about Thaksin, but it has been now two or three days since i posted an article in several threads that is showing light on vigilante groups which are committing extra-judicial killings today - and not one of you "human rights" advocates even feel that this is even worth a comment.

It seems to me that you only care about hating Thaksin, and human rights violations are just one of the tools that enable you to hate Thaksin.

It obviously doesn't bother you that severe human rights violations happen under this leadership as well.

Any alledged H.R.Isues relevant to the present time will be addressed as a matter of course.

Those related to Thaksin are after all a priority considering they did happen, are proven by self association and publicity and are long overdue in relation to the time scale.

This in turn was of course due to his refusal to co-operate with multiple requests to investigate / get answers to questions and concerns that were put to him.

For the record, C.P.

All H.R.Abuses of recent times should be investigated without favour and those responsible for them, made accountable for their actions / involvement in any such incidents, ( Proven of course as in Thaksins case and not hear say )

My own concerns are not in the context you suggest, but my views on what humanity is all about and how we all, as part of the Human Race, have in my opinion a duty to address, while protecting the unfortunate victims where ever possible.

Not a sermon by the way, just simply what motivates me to be constantly involved in all abuses.

Let me assure you that any future ( proven ) H.R.Issues I am aware of, will get the same considerations.

The tools i have for disliking Thaksin are well deserved and due to his abuse in office, along with his Honest / Dishonest representations of his years in office and all the implications to the above highlighted in bold that he is infamously acredited with via his own words and actions therein

marshbags

This is a rather lacklustre attitude, considering that presently, right now, death squads are going around in Thailand.

Proven?

Well, if you want to be somewhat anal, Thaksin involvement is alleged, but not proven in front of a court. The same way - todays allegations of present ongoing killings are alleged, though not proven.

In both - there is very strong, overwhelming evidence.

The difference here lies that you are going on and on about what happened 4 years ago - is badly investigated, what you seem not to realize, and at the same time almost completely ignore what is going on today.

I understand that the existence of todays killings somewhat defeat your view of Thaksin's sole responsibility. But i think you should really start considering that the problem of Human Rights violations is not depending on one man, but with a whole system.

And, i am rather shocked by the general complacency, especially of the most outspoken Thaksin opponents/junta apologists, regarding those death squads today under this government. It does appear to me that for some people here it matters more who commits those atrocities, and not the fact that they happen.

[blaze]

Add to this the Shin Corp revelations that happened prior to this that started the setting in motion, relinquishing / total grip on power and final actions to take away his misuse of authority, it was an obvious scenario that one thing or another was going to happen.

Thank whoever you wish, but in my case god, it wasn,t the other !!!!!!!!!

There is much yet to come regarding his callas / evil authority and his role as leader and overseer as the stones continue to turn over.

To indicate that he could not have proceeded without consent / order of higher ups makes a mockery of the facts and his inability to listen / take notice of such observations unless it was to his selfish benefit and is beyond my comprehension.

There is much yet to come regarding his callas / evil authority and his role as leader and overseer, as the stones continue to turn over and KARMA catches up with him and his associates.

marshbags

And not one comment on the death squads who are killing people TODAY!

That is beyond my comprehension - you people go on and on about Thaksin, but it has been now two or three days since i posted an article in several threads that is showing light on vigilante groups which are committing extra-judicial killings today - and not one of you "human rights" advocates even feel that this is even worth a comment.

It seems to me that you only care about hating Thaksin, and human rights violations are just one of the tools that enable you to hate Thaksin.

It obviously doesn't bother you that severe human rights violations happen under this leadership as well.

Any alledged H.R.Isues relevant to the present time will be addressed as a matter of course.

marshbags

ON what basis do you make that statement? "As a matter of course' human rights abuses are rarely addressed in this country in any meaningful way. As anyone genuinely concerned with 'what humanity is all about' should know.

[Plus]

It's unreasonable to think that death squads employed by Thaksin have disappeared.

Are they employed in the south now? Quite possibly. The context is however entirely different - it's a war down there, in many places law and order to do not exist in any meaningful way.

I also doubt that their operations were started by Sonthi/Surayud.

[sriracha john]

Precisely. With 2 separate threads already running on this article, do we need this to be the third?

Particularly in view that the article and the threads are nearly a month old....

And it is telling that all our outspoken Junta supporters have not commented on these death squads and human rights violations happening now, under this government, and evade any discussion.

Hmmmm...where is that Human Rights activism now?

My post was a rhetorical question as obviously there is no need for 3 threads to cover the same topic.

Have you made any posts in those threads where they would be on-topic? No.

For a supposed platinum member, you seem to have great difficulty with comprehending that if threads already exist on a particular subject, it only detracts from threads to discuss it where it is not the topic.

I have alluded to this for several months now, could though not say more due to a lack of published material.

You didn't have to wait for anything... the article is almost a month old... with equally old threads.

Edited September 10, 2007 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

For a supposed platinum member, you seem to have great difficulty with comprehending that if threads already exist on a particular subject, it only detracts from threads to discuss it where it is not the topic.

No, i haven't made a comment as i haven't seen those threads until you brought this subject up as an excuse not having to make a comment here in this thread.

Why haven't you made a comment on this subject, wherever it turns up? I looked through the threads you provided, yet, i haven't seen you commenting on the use of death squads in the three southern provinces.

Usually you are not so silent on human rights violations. And neither are you silent on the Human Rights violations in the South during Thaksin's premiership.

Uncomfortable that the government you seem to admire is employing the same humane rights violations the last government did?

Stop weaseling out of the discussion, please. The subject of death squads now employed in the south does not detract from the topic. On the contrary - it is more evidence of the theory that Thaksin was not solely responsible for the drug war killings, as alleged by you. But i am very sorry, this subject of death squads in the south now used by this government does detract though from your mistaken assumption that the military government is so much better than Thaksin's elected one.

[Plus]

Ok, I read that Washington Post article. It's an old news and it appeared in the Nation as well.

It takes a stretch of imagination to call that particular group "death squads". Vigilantes at most.

Also the fact that the military tried to transfer their leader out of the area shortly after the incindent also says a lot about government's attitude.

[ColPyat]

Ok, I read that Washington Post article. It's an old news and it appeared in the Nation as well.

It takes a stretch of imagination to call that particular group "death squads". Vigilantes at most.

Also the fact that the military tried to transfer their leader out of the area shortly after the incindent also says a lot about government's attitude.

It also says a lot about the power of informal networks here, even over reaching the military that is now supposedly in power. Who made it possible that Pitak can stay in his position against the wishes of region 4 military officers? I doubt very much that a discredited former PM could have swung that one - he has far more problems than this to worry about anyhow.

And yes, there are many men in the military who do not approve of these organizations and their tactics - yet - they happen.

Which basically brings us back to the situation of the drug war killings, which are not very clear cut either, especially the command structure. Just try to put one and one together, for a change, and don't disregard logic because it does not suit your prefabricated views born out of ideology.

[sriracha john]

For a supposed platinum member, you seem to have great difficulty with comprehending that if threads already exist on a particular subject, it only detracts from threads to discuss it where it is not the topic.

No, i haven't made a comment as i haven't seen those threads until you brought this subject up as an excuse not having to make a comment here in this thread.

<off-topic flaming snipped>

I didn't bring it up, I commented on the post that did bring it up. If the issue was so near and dear to you, I'm amazed you didn't search for it previously and overlooked it when it did get commented on.

Staying on-topic on a thread is not an excuse, it's a forum guideline. Surprising you have yet to learn that.

Edited September 10, 2007 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

I didn't bring it up, I commented on the post that did bring it up. If the issue was so near and dear to you, I'm amazed you didn't search for it previously and overlooked it when it did commented on.

Staying on-topic on a thread is not an excuse, it's a forum guideline.

Alright, are you saying here that human rights issues are only dear to you as long as they concern Thaksin, while others, especially under the present government are not? Interesting - though not unexpected.

[sriracha john]

I didn't bring it up, I commented on the post that did bring it up. If the issue was so near and dear to you, I'm amazed you didn't search for it previously and overlooked it when it did commented on.

Staying on-topic on a thread is not an excuse, it's a forum guideline.

Alright, are you saying here that human rights issues are only dear to you as long as they concern Thaksin, while others, especially under the present government are not? Interesting - though not unexpected.

*edit* Post deleted.... trolling ignored.

Edited September 10, 2007 by sriracha john

[Siripon]

Moderators, please let the colonel start a separate thread regarding current 'death squads' in the deep south.

Perhaps it could be titled:

'Which came first? Thaksin's killers in the early part of his first term or Muslim terrorists murdering innocent citizens?'

[ColPyat]

Are you back to trolling with your inflammatory baiting? Trying to get your record hundredth thread closed or what?

Actually, no. I am "baiting" for a reasonable answer to a reasonable question which is very much concerning the thread topic, being the issue of human rights violations and the sole culpability of Thaksin, which i do question very much.

The issue of the same death squad tactics employed by the state now are a rather clear signal that Human Rights violations as a tool of the Thai state are not just Thaksin'd doing, but systematical and endemic. And, it means that the present leadership does not care one bit more about Human Rights issues than Thaksin, and strangely enough, they have been in positions of power while the many Human Rights violations under Thaksin's premiership happened without doing anything about it.

What should that tell you?

That you prefer to go down into personal attacks than answering reasonably on this subject is very telling though. Thank you, and until you cannot answer reasonably on the issues raised here, don't bother replying, please.

[ColPyat]

Moderators, please let the colonel start a separate thread regarding current 'death squads' in the deep south.

Perhaps it could be titled:

'Which came first? Thaksin's killers in the early part of his first term or Muslim terrorists murdering innocent citizens?'

Simple answer: seperatist insurgents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency

A resurgence in violence by Pattani guerrilla groups began in 2001. The identity of the actors pushing conflict remain mostly obscure. Many local and regional experts have implicated the region's traditional separatist groups, such as PULO, BRN and GMIP, and particularly the BRN-Coordinate (a faction of BRN). Others have suggested the violence is being driven by new, more overtly religious networks. Some experts contend this occurred under the influence of foreign Islamist groups such as al-Qaeda and Jemaah Islamiyah, though many consider the evidence for such connections to be flimsy; such claims remain highly contentious. Some reports suggest that a number of Pattani Muslims have received training at al-Qaida centres in Pakistan, though many experts believe, to the contrary, that the Pattani guerrilla has little or nothing to do with global jihadism. Others have claimed that the Pattani insurgents have forged links with groups such as the religious-nationalist Moro Islamic Liberation Front in the Philippines and the quasi-secular Free Aceh Movement (GAM) in Indonesia.

At first the government blamed the attacks on "bandits," and indeed many outside observers believe that local clan, commercial or criminal rivalries do play some part in the violence in the region. As recently as July of 2002 in the wake of over 14 policemen dying in separate attacks since the beginning of the year, Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra publicly denied the role of religion in the attacks, when quoted as saying he did not "think religion was the cause of the problems down there because several of the policemen killed were Muslim" [1]. Interior Minister Purachai Piemsomboon attributed the attacks on the police to the issue of drug control, as the "police are making serious efforts to make arrests over drugs trafficking."

etc...

[A_Traveller]

Hm.. now no mention of networks et al. There are a number who consider that Thaksin's early activities led to the violence breaking out. I.e. :Duncan McCargo, in Critical Asian Studies, Volume 38, Number 1, March 2006 , pp. 39-71.

Regards

[Buckwheat]

Bringing Thaksin To Account is the topic at hand.

Please refrain from personal attacks and please stay on topic.

Thanks in advance for your anticipated cooperation

[ColPyat]

Hm.. now no mention of networks et al. There are a number who consider that Thaksin's early activities led to the violence breaking out. I.e. :Duncan McCargo, in Critical Asian Studies, Volume 38, Number 1, March 2006 , pp. 39-71.

Regards

Others, such as Michael Nelson, do draw on intelligence that the insurgency has been in preparation much longer than this. Don't forget - the incidents have never completely ceased since the last insurgency ended in the 80's. All along trains have been bombed, and schools have been burnt.

The mishandling of Krue Sue (Panlop Pinmanee, outspoken Thaksin opponent was though the one who gave the order of storming the Mosque) and Tak Bai definitely had a huge effect, but i would not simplify the reason as Thaksin's decision. That, i believe is an important and costly lesson that has been learned by the military now.

[marshbags]

Add to this the Shin Corp revelations that happened prior to this that started the setting in motion, relinquishing / total grip on power and final actions to take away his misuse of authority, it was an obvious scenario that one thing or another was going to happen.

Thank whoever you wish, but in my case god, it wasn,t the other !!!!!!!!!

There is much yet to come regarding his callas / evil authority and his role as leader and overseer as the stones continue to turn over.

To indicate that he could not have proceeded without consent / order of higher ups makes a mockery of the facts and his inability to listen / take notice of such observations unless it was to his selfish benefit and is beyond my comprehension.

There is much yet to come regarding his callas / evil authority and his role as leader and overseer, as the stones continue to turn over and KARMA catches up with him and his associates.

marshbags

And not one comment on the death squads who are killing people TODAY!

That is beyond my comprehension - you people go on and on about Thaksin, but it has been now two or three days since i posted an article in several threads that is showing light on vigilante groups which are committing extra-judicial killings today - and not one of you "human rights" advocates even feel that this is even worth a comment.

It seems to me that you only care about hating Thaksin, and human rights violations are just one of the tools that enable you to hate Thaksin.

It obviously doesn't bother you that severe human rights violations happen under this leadership as well.

Any alledged H.R.Isues relevant to the present time will be addressed as a matter of course.

marshbags

ON what basis do you make that statement? "As a matter of course' human rights abuses are rarely addressed in this country in any meaningful way. As anyone genuinely concerned with 'what humanity is all about' should know.

[marshbags]

Any alledged H.R.Isues relevant to the present time will be addressed as a matter of course.

marshbags

QUOTE(blaze @ 2007-09-10 18:58:02)

ON what basis do you make that statement? "As a matter of course' human rights abuses are rarely addressed in this country in any meaningful way. As anyone genuinely concerned with 'what humanity is all about' should know.

Blaze

This is simple English in it,s context and put even more simply " investigated " as and when the timing to do so, along with anticipated complaints which are backed by facts / evidence, are sent to the newly elected government to take on board.

There is far to much ongoing at the present time that needs addressing before the present government leave office.

But then again well you must know this and any reasonable person should appreciate the situation at hand.

I,ll ignore your last remark and hope it wasn,t meant to be derogatory or undermine genuine efforts to address the EKJ,s on behalf of the many unfortunate victims.

As highlighted in this thread many members are concerned in a genuine way and comment accordingly in a positive way.

Have a go at me by all means when it is justified, but please do not undermine any of the other contributors by your negative remarks.

Personally my skin is made of sterner material so please, don,t waste your time on my behalf, let,s keep the thread open and on topic out of respect for all the thousands that where murdered along with their unfortunate families and friends.

marshbags

Edited September 12, 2007 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

Personally my skin is made of sterner material so please, don,t waste your time on my behalf, let,s keep the thread open and on topic out of respect for all the thousands that where murdered along with their unfortunate families and friends.

marshbags

And lets not care much about the ones murdered today.

It is far more important to highlight the usual investigation commissions than trying to stop today's killings. And yes, lets of course ignore any evidence that might point to other guilty parties, especially the ones in power today, and focus the debate solely on Thaksin.

Dear Marshbags - while you are so caught up in yesterday's murders, you seem to completely forget that today the same happens, ordered by the government (and who is behind it) you seem to support.

[JacknDanny]

Personally my skin is made of sterner material so please, don,t waste your time on my behalf, let,s keep the thread open and on topic out of respect for all the thousands that where murdered along with their unfortunate families and friends.

marshbags

And lets not care much about the ones murdered today.

It is far more important to highlight the usual investigation commissions than trying to stop today's killings. And yes, lets of course ignore any evidence that might point to other guilty parties, especially the ones in power today, and focus the debate solely on Thaksin.

Dear Marshbags - while you are so caught up in yesterday's murders, you seem to completely forget that today the same happens, ordered by the government (and who is behind it) you seem to support.

Col Pyat

The topic is "Bringing Thaksin to Account"

I would politely ask you to stick to the topic in question, as you have also been warned to do by a moderator.

Thanking you in advance

Edited September 12, 2007 by JacknDanny

[blaze]

Any alledged H.R.Isues relevant to the present time will be addressed as a matter of course.

marshbags

QUOTE(blaze @ 2007-09-10 18:58:02)

ON what basis do you make that statement? "As a matter of course' human rights abuses are rarely addressed in this country in any meaningful way. As anyone genuinely concerned with 'what humanity is all about' should know.

Blaze

This is simple English in it,s context and put even more simply " investigated " as and when the timing to do so, along with anticipated complaints which are backed by facts / evidence, are sent to the newly elected government to take on board.

There is far to much ongoing at the present time that needs addressing before the present government leave office.

But then again well you must know this and any reasonable person should appreciate the situation at hand.

I,ll ignore your last remark and hope it wasn,t meant to be derogatory or undermine genuine efforts to address the EKJ,s on behalf of the many unfortunate victims.

As highlighted in this thread many members are concerned in a genuine way and comment accordingly in a positive way.

Have a go at me by all means when it is justified, but please do not undermine any of the other contributors by your negative remarks.

Personally my skin is made of sterner material so please, don,t waste your time on my behalf, let,s keep the thread open and on topic out of respect for all the thousands that where murdered along with their unfortunate families and friends.

marshbags

I apologize for what may have sounded as a derogatory slight. I believe that you genuinely are offended (as am I and many many others- I lost Thai friends over my disgust with the blatant immorality, never mind illegality, of the executions.)

But I am totally confounded by the apparantly genuine abhorance of the drug war killings on the part of people on this board who refuse to express the same abhorance over the other (Ratchburi hospital, Kreu Se, Tak Bai among many) human rights abuses in this country- unless Thaksin's role can somehow be invoked.

That this investigation is occurring within the context of this particular government- one whose sole justification hinges on the vilification of Thaksin,- and that many of those who rail loudest against this particular aspect of the Thaksin period- just coincidentally also deride his economic record, his policies and even the shape of his face (not to mention his wife's ass) raises some concerns as to whether or not it it motivated by a desire to deter future human rights abuses- or simply to tar Thaksin with a black brush.

If it is the latter- then nothing will change. There will be no deterrence. The message - should Thaksin pay the price- be simply- don't piss off the army.

When the cops on Suk bust tourists for tossing cigarette butts- even they cover any possible accusation of selectively choosing the targets for their environmental zealotry (foreigners) by trotting out a list of Thai signatures, thereby indicating that they while they don't like foreigners tossing their butts around- they ALSO don't like Thais doing the same.

That lends- or at least is intended to lend- the whole enterprise an immunity from suspcion that it is simply a race determined cash-cow.

Those truly concerned with the horrible nature of the EJK s would do well to follow that example. EJKs exist outside of the war on drugs. Either condemn all EJKs or none.

And yes- this is fully on topic- because refusal to condemn and DEMAND justice for all EJKs will be the only way that events like the drug slaughters will in the future, be deterred. And isn't that the real goal?

[sriracha john]

thaivisa's search engine will provide many posts by myself on the topics you mentioned...

in their appropriately respective threads....

btw, any derision of him and his family is entirely deserved, IMO

Edited September 12, 2007 by sriracha john

[ColPyat]

Col Pyat

The topic is "Bringing Thaksin to Account"

I would politely ask you to stick to the topic in question, as you have also been warned to do by a moderator.

Thanking you in advance

Your only contribution to this topic then is reminding me of the thread topic?

The topic then can easily be answered: No need whatsoever to bring Thaksin to account as hardly anybody here on the forum, reflecting the mood of the present government, seems to be interested to widen the investigations to who else might be guilty and should be brought to account, and neither to stop Human Rights violations that happen today, or bringing the ones responsible to account.

I would suggest then to close the topic, or rename in "Here we blame Thaksin, any discussion on Human Rights issues are forbidden".

[ColPyat]

And yes- this is fully on topic- because refusal to condemn and DEMAND justice for all EJKs will be the only way that events like the drug slaughters will in the future, be deterred. And isn't that the real goal?

The problem here is, that for some posters the issue of Human Rights abuses is not the topic. They interpret the topic rather narrowly as only trying to bring Thaksin to account because they hate him, and the Human Rights abuses that occurred under his premiership are just another tool in order to get revenge for early bar closings. Don't screw with a bloke's right for a late night beer!

[ColPyat]

The following, by the way, is the OP, titled: "Bringing Thaksin To Account, Extra judicial killings". I would say that the second part of the thread title does include "Extra judicial killings" in a rather general way. Therefore i would believe that discussions on extra-judicial killings are very much part of the thread topic.

As the original poster himself has even mentioned name of dictators from other parts of the world, it would also lead to believe me that other Thai dictators and groups of vested interest, and their actions, are rather part of the topic.

As the poster has also made statement on the ultimate responsibility of Thaksin without any final proof, i believe that arguing this point is also part of the thread topic, and that includes presenting supporting evidence, such as Human Rights violations committed today regardless of the fact that Thaksin is gone, committed by people that under Thaksin (or above him) have been during Thaksin's premiership in powerful positions.

Basically, i do understand that now, after evidence has been presented that does clearly show that Thaksin alone was not solely responsible, that the basic premise of the thread is getting a bit difficult to defend. But please, when the position of my dear opponents starts to weaken in face of evidence, then i would please ask them, not to shut down the debate and boycott free speech so that they don't need to answer questions they cannot. Please.

Taken from an article in todays Nation.

PARTIAL QUOTE :-

Bringing the Thaksin regime to account

In the 'war on drugs' in Thailand in 2003, around 3,000 people died with no proper judicial accounting. The National Human Rights Commission has assembled convincing evidence that several victims had no involvement in drug trading. The mechanics of the campaign were lethally simple. Provincial governors and police chiefs were told to eliminate drug trading. Blacklists of names were compiled and success was measured against numerical targets.

UNQUOTE

Go to the following url for the full article which mentions the likes of Saddam Hussein and

Augusto Pinochet in the same article when commenting on leaders who have infamous actions credited against them.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/13...on_30018782.php

Of course the relevant story about Thailand is the topic of the article and goes into detail about certain officials and their involvement.

Again Thaksin as CEO is ultimately responsible for all the actions taken and cannot claim orders where carried out at local levels without his knowledge..

Ultimately they are ALL accountable in varying degrees, with him the figurehead of the atrocities.

On a personal level this article along with some of the statements made by so called humanbeings, makes very disturbing reading, as reports of this nature always do.

marshbags

[A_Traveller]

This ends up as a 50/50 problem. The majority have taken the thread to read as if there is a for in between the main title and the sub heading. Some of my contributions have been about the disappearance of the activist lawyer, Somchai Neelapaijit, not just the 'war on drugs'. I've gone as far as to say that this incident is ultimately the one which will damage Thaksin internationally, more so that the WoD issue, despite the numbers.

I do think that there is a case for a thread exploring the activities of the prior administrations, Thakisn and the present incumbents, but I'm not convinced this thread is the place. If a thread is opened to look at this general malaise which afflicts the administrative infrastructure, then maybe that would be preferable. Problem too is that it is difficult within the News Clippings to identify where it is best to present information, for example, I think the exoneration of Khunying Porntip is good news, but it has not appeared herein.

Regards

[blaze]

This ends up as a 50/50 problem. The majority have taken the thread to read as if there is a for in between the main title and the sub heading. Some of my contributions have been about the disappearance of the activist lawyer, Somchai Neelapaijit, not just the 'war on drugs'. I've gone as far as to say that this incident is ultimately the one which will damage Thaksin internationally, more so that the WoD issue, despite the numbers.

I do think that there is a case for a thread exploring the activities of the prior administrations, Thakisn and the present incumbents, but I'm not convinced this thread is the place. If a thread is opened to look at this general malaise which afflicts the administrative infrastructure, then maybe that would be preferable. Problem too is that it is difficult within the News Clippings to identify where it is best to present information, for example, I think the exoneration of Khunying Porntip is good news, but it has not appeared herein.

Regards

Yes I understand the points you make AT. BuI think every person on this board agrees that the drug wars were bad. They were illegal and immoral. OK.

What I am trying to understand is WHY we want to take Thaksin to account. Setting aside the possibility that this is motivated by nothing more than a desire for revenge- or worse, to justify the coup by adding more crimes to the litany of What Thaksin Did- then it is- hopefully- to forge a deterrent to future transgressions.

If that's the case- what exactly was the crime?

Was the crime that he circumvented the law for what he claimed to be the greater good? Well if that's a crime then so must be the coup. And to be legally consistent, those who denounce the drug war must denounce the coup.

Is the crime that he deprived others of due process? Well if that's a crime so was Tak Bai, Kreu Se and very possibly, Ratchaburi Hospital- and again- demanding that someone be 'brought to account'.

If we are talking in this thread about justice and not simply using the law when it suits us (or the powers that be) as a mechanism for destroying our enemies- ( all too frequent in Thailand), then justice must be seen to be impartial. It should be the fact that the law was circumvented that outrages us, that due process was abandoned- not that Thaksin specifically circumvented it. And for there to be any deterrent value to bringing Thaksin to account, then those demanding prosecution, are logically obliged to demand prosecution of ALL human rights abuses- they must, like the cop in my previous post- go out of their way to show that this is not a personal vendetta and the best way to do that is to demonstrate that it doesn't matter WHO breaks these fundamental laws- they WILL be brought to justice- not just transferred. THEN this whole exercise will gain a lot more credibility.

The fear that some of us have is that ok- Thaksin is hung for his crimes. And what has society learned? Nothing more than Thaksin was bad man. NOT that depriving people of their basic rights or sidestepping the law by those in power is a ticket to the dock.

What we think, on this board, makes very little difference- but if this conversation is happening in the wider Thai society- I really hope that it has more dimensions than a simple howl of outrage.

[marshbags]

The following, by the way, is the OP, titled: "Bringing Thaksin To Account, Extra judicial killings". I would say that the second part of the thread title does include "Extra judicial killings" in a rather general way. Therefore i would believe that discussions on extra-judicial killings are very much part of the thread topic.

As the original poster himself has even mentioned name of dictators from other parts of the world, it would also lead to believe me that other Thai dictators and groups of vested interest, and their actions, are rather part of the topic.

As the poster has also made statement on the ultimate responsibility of Thaksin without any final proof, i believe that arguing this point is also part of the thread topic, and that includes presenting supporting evidence, such as Human Rights violations committed today regardless of the fact that Thaksin is gone, committed by people that under Thaksin (or above him) have been during Thaksin's premiership in powerful positions.

Basically, i do understand that now, after evidence has been presented that does clearly show that Thaksin alone was not solely responsible, that the basic premise of the thread is getting a bit difficult to defend. But please, when the position of my dear opponents starts to weaken in face of evidence, then i would please ask them, not to shut down the debate and boycott free speech so that they don't need to answer questions they cannot. Please.

Taken from an article in todays Nation.

PARTIAL QUOTE :-

Bringing the Thaksin regime to account

In the 'war on drugs' in Thailand in 2003, around 3,000 people died with no proper judicial accounting. The National Human Rights Commission has assembled convincing evidence that several victims had no involvement in drug trading. The mechanics of the campaign were lethally simple. Provincial governors and police chiefs were told to eliminate drug trading. Blacklists of names were compiled and success was measured against numerical targets.

UNQUOTE

Go to the following url for the full article which mentions the likes of Saddam Hussein and

Augusto Pinochet in the same article when commenting on leaders who have infamous actions credited against them.

This is to indicate that Thaksin is considered in a similar evil context with his EKJ,s policy and it,s implications, and was intended for comparison purposes.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/13...on_30018782.php

Of course the relevant story about Thailand is the topic of the article and goes into detail about certain officials and their involvement.

Again Thaksin as CEO is ultimately responsible for all the actions taken and cannot claim orders where carried out at local levels without his knowledge..

Ultimately they are ALL accountable in varying degrees, with him the figurehead of the atrocities.

On a personal level this article along with some of the statements made by so called humanbeings, makes very disturbing reading, as reports of this nature always do.

marshbags

The term " EKJ,s " refers specifically to the drug war and it,s murderous objectives and was commonly used to reference this particular issue we are debating.

It was and is used by all media outlets, H.Rights and most individuals who are familiar with the evil it represents, namely the

" War On Drugs / Drug War " as it was introduced by the one and only infamous and evil Thaksin.

While the inclusion of other H.R.Abuses is o.k., they should not hijack the threads objectives.

Should anyone wish to debate them in detail then, IF other threads do not cover them already, then everyone is in a position to exercise their rights, as members, and start a new one off.

All H.R.Abuses are equally important and each deserves individual discussion, that is of course unless you are active in a thread along the lines of H.R. Abuses ( plural ) and this one had it been the objective to do so would have had a sub title to indicate such a subject matter.

To put them all under one umbrella would not give each case the full attention they deserve, chaos would prevail, ( as some are trying to instill into this thread, ) along with the obvious desired outcome of having the debate closed.

Due to the fact that certain members are continually going off topic with other issues, in spite of warnings and advice to

" Keep On Topic " i have to assume they are indeed out to troll, cause disruption and chaos ect. ect. to get their own agenda,s realised.

I would respectfully request the Mods take actions against the individuals if it is deemed neccessary, rather than close the thread and thereby penalise all the positive posts in support of the observations ( both sides of course ) of those relevant to the threads objectives.

After ignoring the usual warning, of course, to stay on topic.

marshbags

Edited September 13, 2007 by marshbags

[Plus]

What I am trying to understand is WHY we want to take Thaksin to account.

Was the crime that he circumvented the law for what he claimed to be the greater good?

Is the crime that he deprived others of due process? Well if that's a crime so was Tak Bai, Kreu Se and very possibly, Ratchaburi Hospital- and again- demanding that someone be 'brought to account'.

The crime is that he instigated a bout of violence that claimed lives of thousands of people. Should actual killers be brought to justice? It's practically impossible and I'm afraid there are no precedents on this.

Just like any genocide case - only top leaders are held responsible, foot soldiers get off scott free. Is it fair? No, but it's the best we can do.