France has violated the Vienna Convention – Lavrov

[stevenl]

Article is taking out of context,

that words Lavrov used was referenced NOT to stupid ultras (who acted on their own, for what I hate them),

but to stopped bus with innocent people.

All of them were taken to custody. Including oldmen. Including women. Including drivers (?!). Reason France's gendarmerie has named was "terrorism check".

Think about it. People lost their flight tickets, which they bought in advance, while they're stuck on the entirely another country. People, who are physically couldn't be those ultras.

And most of all: at the time of this incident, France didn't messaged Russian channels anything. That's exactly what Lavrov pointing at. All this happened without informing Russia.

Before doing any premature conclusions, please dig deeper on the matter.

Don't try to see in this article something like "Lavrov trying to protect bunch of ultras". Nobody like ultras. They are stupid. Those idiotic ultras were <5% of other Russian fans.

Ah, that's why the French ambassador was called to the Kremlin when the leader of the supporters, know ultra Alexander Sjprygin was arrested.

[ballpoint]

Listen France, and everybody else for that matter, just wait for the World Cup in Russia and we will even the score, Big Time !

They will be banned from all sports including the Olympics because they have been drugging their athletes for decades.

Go cry in your vodka

http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1038511/armed-secret-police-fake-urine-samples-and-athletes-running-away-among-problems-faced-by-foreign-doping-testers-in-russia

[Redline]

Article is taking out of context,

that words Lavrov used was referenced NOT to stupid ultras (who acted on their own, for what I hate them),

but to stopped bus with innocent people.

All of them were taken to custody. Including oldmen. Including women. Including drivers (?!). Reason France's gendarmerie has named was "terrorism check".

Think about it. People lost their flight tickets, which they bought in advance, while they're stuck on the entirely another country. People, who are physically couldn't be those ultras.

And most of all: at the time of this incident, France didn't messaged Russian channels anything. That's exactly what Lavrov pointing at. All this happened without informing Russia.

Before doing any premature conclusions, please dig deeper on the matter.

Don't try to see in this article something like "Lavrov trying to protect bunch of ultras". Nobody like ultras. They are stupid. Those idiotic ultras were <5% of other Russian fans.

Unfortunately, you are often judged by the company you keep. If you are in a house with drug dealers in the USA, you are taken away as well. So, let the woman and children go. Did they charge the women and children with some crime?

[Redline]

Listen France, and everybody else for that matter, just wait for the World Cup in Russia and we will even the score, Big Time !

They will be banned from all sports including the Olympics because they have been drugging their athletes for decades.

Go cry in your vodka

http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1038511/armed-secret-police-fake-urine-samples-and-athletes-running-away-among-problems-faced-by-foreign-doping-testers-in-russia

It gets worse as time goes on

[AlexStepashkin]

Unfortunately, you are often judged by the company you keep. If you are in a house with drug dealers in the USA, you are taken away as well. So, let the woman and children go. Did they charge the women and children with some crime?

They stopped everybody in that bus and held it for more than 24 hrs.

And that's the thing Lavrov pointing at. Nobody told anyone about this, so no diplomatic/countrywide support could be held to them. Russian's MFA found out about all this from social networks (!), not from France.

Ah, that's why the French ambassador was called to the Kremlin when the leader of the supporters, know ultra Alexander Sjprygin was arrested.

I'm talking about the bus with >40 usual people, not ultras. I pointed that out several times in my post

[stevenl]

Unfortunately, you are often judged by the company you keep. If you are in a house with drug dealers in the USA, you are taken away as well. So, let the woman and children go. Did they charge the women and children with some crime?

They stopped everybody in that bus and held it for more than 24 hrs.

And that's the thing Lavrov pointing at. Nobody told anyone about this, so no diplomatic/countrywide support could be held to them. Russian's MFA found out about all this from social networks (!), not from France.

Ah, that's why the French ambassador was called to the Kremlin when the leader of the supporters, know ultra Alexander Sjprygin was arrested.

I'm talking about the bus with >40 usual people, not ultras. I pointed that out several times in my post

That does not answer my post.

[AlexStepashkin]

That does not answer my post.

There are several related events happened.

You're mentioning only one of them.

[stevenl]

That does not answer my post.

There are several related events happened.

You're mentioning only one of them.

Yes, and the French ambassador was called in because of the detention of known ultra Alexander Sjprygin. So if they don't like the ultra's, why?

[AlexStepashkin]

Yes, and the French ambassador was called in because of the detention of known ultra Alexander Sjprygin. So if they don't like the ultra's, why?

He was called not because of the detention of any particular ultra,

but because of lack of any messaging with Russia on the matter of taking russian people somewhere without informing Russia.

I already described the issue here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/925276-france-has-violated-the-vienna-convention-lavrov/page-2#entry10864346

Don't try to see in this article something like "Lavrov trying to protect bunch of ultras". Nobody like ultras. They are stupid. Those idiotic ultras were <5% of other Russian fans.

It's about all other people, not ultras.

Edited June 17, 2016 by AlexStepashkin

[stevenl]

Yes, and the French ambassador was called in because of the detention of known ultra Alexander Sjprygin. So if they don't like the ultra's, why?

He was called not because of the detention of any particular ultra,

but because of lack of any messaging with Russia on the matter of taking russian people somewhere without informing Russia.

I already described the issue here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/925276-france-has-violated-the-vienna-convention-lavrov/page-2#entry10864346

Don't try to see in this article something like "Lavrov trying to protect bunch of ultras". Nobody like ultras. They are stupid. Those idiotic ultras were <5% of other Russian fans.

It's about all other people, not ultras.

"He was called not because of the detention of any particular ultra,

but because of lack of any messaging with Russia on the matter of taking russian people somewhere without informing Russia."

That is not the information I have.

IMO it does not matter too much though. The French have made mistakes here and were not vigilant enough, but the Russian reactions are appaling, and seem to be blaming everybody but their own supporters. The problems with 'fans' in most European countries seem to be getting less, with authorities getting a better handle on them. But in Russia it seems to be going the opposite reaction, which is a scary development with WC2018 coming up in Russia, as is the Russian reaction and seemingly lack of taking responsibility.

[AlexStepashkin]

IMO it does not matter too much though.

Context is always important.

Lack of context/details = generalized biases, just like yours about "they deny everything".

IMO it does not matter too much though.

Russian reactions are appaling, and seem to be blaming everybody but their own supporters.

But in Russia it seems to be going the opposite reaction, which is a scary development with WC2018 coming up in Russia, as is the Russian reaction and seemingly lack of taking responsibility.

But that's not true.

In this particular case with Lavrov, I already explained, why exactly he mentioned such statements. And it was not about "oh no, you jailed ultras, give them back, it's your fault that you jailed them". It wasn't about ultras at all. It was about people from their country, and not only ultra one. Big difference

Actions of some particular idiotic fan is his own actions.

But it's not a country-wide thing, and you don't need to take it as "if RU government didn't apologize for some particular idiot actions, then they deny any responsibility".

He (and only he) must held punishment, nobody disagree with that.

The thing Lavrov has mentioned was total lack of interaction with Russian ministry of foreign affairs/embassy on the matter, which is crucial for ability to support innocent ones. It's a usual thing to inform other country what happened with it's citizen. Usual human right.

[Chicog]

I see one of the Russians jailed was head of 'Fan Relations' for one of the Moscow clubs!

[stevenl]

IMO it does not matter too much though.

Context is always important.

Lack of context/details = generalized biases, just like yours about "they deny everything".

IMO it does not matter too much though.

Russian reactions are appaling, and seem to be blaming everybody but their own supporters.

But in Russia it seems to be going the opposite reaction, which is a scary development with WC2018 coming up in Russia, as is the Russian reaction and seemingly lack of taking responsibility.

But that's not true.

In this particular case with Lavrov, I already explained, why exactly he mentioned such statements. And it was not about "oh no, you jailed ultras, give them back, it's your fault that you jailed them". It wasn't about ultras at all. It was about people from their country, and not only ultra one. Big difference

Actions of some particular idiotic fan is his own actions.

But it's not a country-wide thing, and you don't need to take it as "if RU government didn't apologize for some particular idiot actions, then they deny any responsibility".

He (and only he) must held punishment, nobody disagree with that.

The thing Lavrov has mentioned was total lack of interaction with Russian ministry of foreign affairs/embassy on the matter, which is crucial for ability to support innocent ones. It's a usual thing to inform other country what happened with it's citizen. Usual human right.

You're not answering my points, plus you have taken my words out if context. Which as you know is important.

[manarak]

beyond the lapse in diplomatic protocol, I don't know if I can subscribe to the principle of "security at all costs" that seems to be increasingly followed by Western governments.

It seems it is ok to inconvenience and curtail personal freedom of a large number of people that haven't (yet) threatened public order to avoid some injuries and possible deaths.

On the other hand, French police can't do much when their suburbs pondscum sets cars on fire.

[stevenl]

beyond the lapse in diplomatic protocol, I don't know if I can subscribe to the principle of "security at all costs" that seems to be increasingly followed by Western governments.

It seems it is ok to inconvenience and curtail personal freedom of a large number of people that haven't (yet) threatened public order to avoid some injuries and possible deaths.

On the other hand, French police can't do much when their suburbs pondscum sets cars on fire.

In general I agree with you here, but these mass events, with their history of violence, are a different kettle of fish IMO. Edited June 17, 2016 by stevenl

[arjunadawn]

But invading Ukraine is OK?

Not OP, and false narrative. EU/US overthrew legitimate elected Ukranian president because he opposed closer EU/NATO union. Russian response to that aggression not this OP. Thku. Edited June 17, 2016 by arjunadawn

[BigBadGeordie]

My gosh, I think the Russians doth protest too much.

Apologies to Will Shakespeare.

Edited June 17, 2016 by BigBadGeordie

[rudy h]

For once I'm proud of the French

I was also proud of the French when they declined to join George W.B. in invading Iraq

stating clearly and decisively there were no WMD's in Iraq.

well the French are the French, don't think they had that Syrian oil to fight for then Edited June 19, 2016 by rudy h