Trump's new Obama claims thrust him into uncharted territory

[Linzz]

"Hold yer horses there because the other guy spends almost all of his time attacking the libtards while giving the radical right a free ride. He focuses on the liberal progressives yet he claims for himself balance, independence, moderation, all of which fabricate his own self-virtuous circle.

And if he'd seriously read or considered anything by Prof Hofstadter he'd know the professor included paranoia of the Left as well as of the Right, but chose to focus on the right, and that subsequent researchers have carried Prof Hofstadter's work forward to the present."

Well the poster is indeed correct that I have my political bias but I think it more of a mixture as I already described. For instance I could talk about "loony left wing nut jobs from left winge wingenuttia" but prefer to leave that kind of damning rhetoric to the politically submerged who never come up for air.

The good prof. may well have addressed left wing paranoia as I suspected he might being so lauded, but my point is therefore confirmed that this aspect was never aired because it did not suit the poster to include, hence my point about imbalance which consists of cherry picked ideas to suit a political construct. We all do it to a more or less degree which best suits out particular version of "truth" and makes for reasonable exchange of ideas. But when the debate shifts into name calling and smear, credibility and virtue disappear because it's a descent into vulgar personal venting which enlightens and respects no one and only serves as jollies for the poster.

My own personal bias is more often than not a response to what I see as intellectual dishonesty, snobbery, a platform for class warfare and self elevation to the moral high ground and for some unknown reason that kind of vanity seems to come more often from the "intellectual" left. Perhaps being economically better off they have more time on their hands.

It is easier to tolerate unfettered bigotry from the right in my view than to tolerate intellectual pretentiousness from the left

The former is often a vulgar and visceral reflex and very easily criticized but is often less calculating and more honest in it's response. Both perfectly expressed on TVF which is a microcosm of the general electorate. This also may explain a little of why Trump gets the support that he does from an anti intellectual, disenchanted, yes paranoid but more importantly and forgivably, an economically repressed voting public with little hope of improvement in their lives.

Cough, sputter, gulp, spits...politically submerged? How dare you, sir!

"Trump gets the support that he does from an anti intellectual, disenchanted, yes paranoid but more importantly and forgivably, an economically repressed voting public with little hope of improvement in their lives."

It is pathetic isn't it? Believing Donald Trump is going to be your savior. As if he actually gives a rat's ass about them. At least you admit who is peeps are (you forgot low-info). The YUGE problem for the Republicans is that there ain't enough of them and there won't be any new ones. He continues to alienate everyone including dedicated Republicans who have come to the realization that the Donald has become toxic.

A dumpster fire of a campaign, just like I knew it would be. Maybe better. 5 months till the Donald goes back to reality TV and the Republican party finishes it's self-immolation.

I hope when HRC is elected with the congressional majority, she doesn't waste time trying to work with the Republicans like Obama did. Pedal to the metal, day one. See ya.

Haha Pinot don't drown. I do understand you. Yes it may well be pathetic believing Trump's erratic rhetoric and he may not give a rat's ass too. But where else can they go? That huge population of disenchanted voters cannot vote Democrat when actually their lives are worth less after 8 years and feel and they have no other representation but from a "miracle worker" that they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision as so often expressed here. It is the Dems who naturally should be their support base, (not some Rep wild card) and shame on them who have spurned their original support base and morphed into the well heeled bourgeois vote.

Instead we hear "ain't they so stupid, low info, uneducated racist nut jobs" etc etc. Well fine but that does nothing but is only the left talking to each other, 'liking' who can deride the most eloquently, congratulating each other on their mutual enlightenment and preaching to the converted.

As I've said many times, there has not been much serious analysis as to why Trump has come to be so popular except one poster who summed it all up as paranoia. As well as that, I suspect there to be more fundamental reasons to it than some esoteric academic explanation by reason of it's own origin could not ever really identify with the everyday reality of ordinary people's lives.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Linzz

[Publicus]

The worst instance of the paranoid style in politics and socio-economics was Germany from 1930-1945, as Prof. Hofstadter pointed out. (On the Left it was Stalin.)

Nothing academic about these whackjob leaders and their sycophants or concerning the paranoid style of a political culture. They are indeed real. Horrendously real. Mussolini and Rome had got off to an earlier start but had been little more than the Reich's accomplice.

Let's not support, try to justify or to apologise for the campaign to become that which we once fought against to defeat once and for all. It is incumbent on the AntiRight to oppose the boors and their knowing advocates because all of 'em need to be confronted and stopped, regardless of whether or not they recognise or realise their destructive course of action.

Any reasonably educated or otherwise perceptive person knows exactly where the Trump Train is headed if it can find its way through to its end game.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Publicus

[ilostmypassword]

"Hold yer horses there because the other guy spends almost all of his time attacking the libtards while giving the radical right a free ride. He focuses on the liberal progressives yet he claims for himself balance, independence, moderation, all of which fabricate his own self-virtuous circle.

And if he'd seriously read or considered anything by Prof Hofstadter he'd know the professor included paranoia of the Left as well as of the Right, but chose to focus on the right, and that subsequent researchers have carried Prof Hofstadter's work forward to the present."

Well the poster is indeed correct that I have my political bias but I think it more of a mixture as I already described. For instance I could talk about "loony left wing nut jobs from left winge wingenuttia" but prefer to leave that kind of damning rhetoric to the politically submerged who never come up for air.

The good prof. may well have addressed left wing paranoia as I suspected he might being so lauded, but my point is therefore confirmed that this aspect was never aired because it did not suit the poster to include, hence my point about imbalance which consists of cherry picked ideas to suit a political construct. We all do it to a more or less degree which best suits out particular version of "truth" and makes for reasonable exchange of ideas. But when the debate shifts into name calling and smear, credibility and virtue disappear because it's a descent into vulgar personal venting which enlightens and respects no one and only serves as jollies for the poster.

My own personal bias is more often than not a response to what I see as intellectual dishonesty, snobbery, a platform for class warfare and self elevation to the moral high ground and for some unknown reason that kind of vanity seems to come more often from the "intellectual" left. Perhaps being economically better off they have more time on their hands.

It is easier to tolerate unfettered bigotry from the right in my view than to tolerate intellectual pretentiousness from the left

The former is often a vulgar and visceral reflex and very easily criticized but is often less calculating and more honest in it's response. Both perfectly expressed on TVF which is a microcosm of the general electorate. This also may explain a little of why Trump gets the support that he does from an anti intellectual, disenchanted, yes paranoid but more importantly and forgivably, an economically repressed voting public with little hope of improvement in their lives.

Cough, sputter, gulp, spits...politically submerged? How dare you, sir!

"Trump gets the support that he does from an anti intellectual, disenchanted, yes paranoid but more importantly and forgivably, an economically repressed voting public with little hope of improvement in their lives."

It is pathetic isn't it? Believing Donald Trump is going to be your savior. As if he actually gives a rat's ass about them. At least you admit who is peeps are (you forgot low-info). The YUGE problem for the Republicans is that there ain't enough of them and there won't be any new ones. He continues to alienate everyone including dedicated Republicans who have come to the realization that the Donald has become toxic.

A dumpster fire of a campaign, just like I knew it would be. Maybe better. 5 months till the Donald goes back to reality TV and the Republican party finishes it's self-immolation.

I hope when HRC is elected with the congressional majority, she doesn't waste time trying to work with the Republicans like Obama did. Pedal to the metal, day one. See ya.

Haha Pinot don't drown. I do understand you. Yes it may well be pathetic believing Trump's erratic rhetoric and he may not give a rat's ass too. But where else can they go? That huge population of disenchanted voters cannot vote Democrat when actually their lives are worth less after 8 years and feel and they have no other representation but from a "miracle worker" that they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision as so often expressed here. It is the Dems who naturally should be their support base, (not some Rep wild card) and shame on them who have spurned their original support base and morphed into the well heeled bourgeois vote.

shame on them who have spurned their original support base and morphed into the well heeled bourgeois vote.

Latino and Black voters are mostly "well-heeled bourgeois?"

[thaihome]

...

As I've said many times, there has not been much serious analysis as to why Trump has come to be so popular ...

Actually it's been well discussed in another thread, but to summarize for this one:

A certain demographic of white, lower middle or working class, with mostly high school or less education has been subjected since Clinton beat Bush I to a steady diet of carefully coded bigotarty based propaganda often consisting of ad homien attacks on democratic politicians in order to enlist them in support of an economic agenda which is against their best interest.

The outcome of this is a bitter group of people whose lifestyle as not improved and the objects of their hatred are still around. What Trump has done is stop using the coded dog whistles to "tell it like it is" while still maintaining the self destructive economic policy.

TH

Edited June 17, 2016 by thaihome

[Linzz]

...

As I've said many times, there has not been much serious analysis as to why Trump has come to be so popular ...

Actually it's been well discussed in another thread, but to summarize for this one:

A certain demographic of white, lower middle or working class, with mostly high school or less education has been subjected since Clinton beat Bush I to a steady diet of carefully coded bigotarty based propaganda often consisting of ad homien attacks on democratic politicians in order to enlist them in support of an economic agenda which is against their best interest.

The outcome of this is a bitter group of people whose lifestyle as not improved and the objects of their hatred are still around. What Trump has done is stop using the coded dog whistles to "tell it like it is" while still maintaining the self destructive economic policy.

TH

Now this feels more like left wing paranoia and conspiracy theory.

Maybe the real reasons are, including working class uneducated:

Middle class voters keep losing ground

Wages are back to 1970's levels

Middle class shares only 20+ % of wealth (Spain 50+%)

Foreign born workers 52% native born hires 48% (many illegal workers work for less than minimum wage which pushes downwards pressure on wages, do not pay taxes but benefit from free healthcare)

Healthcare is more expensive

Most of the lower working classes are not interested in politics or politicians much less caring for "attacks on democratic politicians". But Trump has been shouting out all the cliches and simplistic jargon and woken up quite a few while his celebrity status made that pretty easy as well since he was already well known.. Desperate people will eat anything especially when the self serving political establishment do not represent them.

[Linzz]

I wish many states in the Southern US would just leave the Unites States because a lot of the people that live there make the rest of us look like fools.

Maybe you can have another American Civil War?

Give Texas back to Mexico?

[Linzz]

The worst instance of the paranoid style in politics and socio-economics was Germany from 1930-1945, as Prof. Hofstadter pointed out. (On the Left it was Stalin.)

Nothing academic about these whackjob leaders and their sycophants or concerning the paranoid style of a political culture. They are indeed real. Horrendously real. Mussolini and Rome had got off to an earlier start but had been little more than the Reich's accomplice.

Let's not support, try to justify or to apologise for the campaign to become that which we once fought against to defeat once and for all. It is incumbent on the AntiRight to oppose the boors and their knowing advocates because all of 'em need to be confronted and stopped, regardless of whether or not they recognise or realise their destructive course of action.

Any reasonably educated or otherwise perceptive person knows exactly where the Trump Train is headed if it can find its way through to its end game.

"There is nothing to overlook or to forgive in Donald Trump" Of course I'm watching him skeptically all the time. What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

Not to worry Publicus, you can be sure I would stand alongside you in any anti Nazi war as I am sure you would alongside me in any anti Stalinist war. Right?

Except we have to accept we're just keyboard warriors instead!

[geriatrickid]

Another sad thread. The ignorance of US nationals is depressing. They do not know their own constitution, nor do they know how their government is structured.

It is obvious that there is a complete absence of morality in the USA and that we are watching the rot and self destruction of a former leader of the free world.

Trump's statements are false and are the actions of a petulant bully. He has played the system for decades and at some point, his house of cards will come tumbling down. If one repeats a lie often enough, malicious people and those of limited intelligence will absorb the lie.

[Pimay1]

I wish many states in the Southern US would just leave the Unites States because a lot of the people that live there make the rest of us look like fools.

You don't need any help.

[nealthewheel]

"Hold yer horses there because the other guy spends almost all of his time attacking the libtards while giving the radical right a free ride. He focuses on the liberal progressives yet he claims for himself balance, independence, moderation, all of which fabricate his own self-virtuous circle.

And if he'd seriously read or considered anything by Prof Hofstadter he'd know the professor included paranoia of the Left as well as of the Right, but chose to focus on the right, and that subsequent researchers have carried Prof Hofstadter's work forward to the present."

Well the poster is indeed correct that I have my political bias but I think it more of a mixture as I already described. For instance I could talk about "loony left wing nut jobs from left winge wingenuttia" but prefer to leave that kind of damning rhetoric to the politically submerged who never come up for air.

The good prof. may well have addressed left wing paranoia as I suspected he might being so lauded, but my point is therefore confirmed that this aspect was never aired because it did not suit the poster to include, hence my point about imbalance which consists of cherry picked ideas to suit a political construct. We all do it to a more or less degree which best suits out particular version of "truth" and makes for reasonable exchange of ideas. But when the debate shifts into name calling and smear, credibility and virtue disappear because it's a descent into vulgar personal venting which enlightens and respects no one and only serves as jollies for the poster.

My own personal bias is more often than not a response to what I see as intellectual dishonesty, snobbery, a platform for class warfare and self elevation to the moral high ground and for some unknown reason that kind of vanity seems to come more often from the "intellectual" left. Perhaps being economically better off they have more time on their hands.

It is easier to tolerate unfettered bigotry from the right in my view than to tolerate intellectual pretentiousness from the left

The former is often a vulgar and visceral reflex and very easily criticized but is often less calculating and more honest in it's response. Both perfectly expressed on TVF which is a microcosm of the general electorate. This also may explain a little of why Trump gets the support that he does from an anti intellectual, disenchanted, yes paranoid but more importantly and forgivably, an economically repressed voting public with little hope of improvement in their lives.

Cough, sputter, gulp, spits...politically submerged? How dare you, sir!

"Trump gets the support that he does from an anti intellectual, disenchanted, yes paranoid but more importantly and forgivably, an economically repressed voting public with little hope of improvement in their lives."

It is pathetic isn't it? Believing Donald Trump is going to be your savior. As if he actually gives a rat's ass about them. At least you admit who is peeps are (you forgot low-info). The YUGE problem for the Republicans is that there ain't enough of them and there won't be any new ones. He continues to alienate everyone including dedicated Republicans who have come to the realization that the Donald has become toxic.

A dumpster fire of a campaign, just like I knew it would be. Maybe better. 5 months till the Donald goes back to reality TV and the Republican party finishes it's self-immolation.

I hope when HRC is elected with the congressional majority, she doesn't waste time trying to work with the Republicans like Obama did. Pedal to the metal, day one. See ya.

Haha Pinot don't drown. I do understand you. Yes it may well be pathetic believing Trump's erratic rhetoric and he may not give a rat's ass too. But where else can they go? That huge population of disenchanted voters cannot vote Democrat when actually their lives are worth less after 8 years and feel and they have no other representation but from a "miracle worker" that they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision as so often expressed here. It is the Dems who naturally should be their support base, (not some Rep wild card) and shame on them who have spurned their original support base and morphed into the well heeled bourgeois vote.

shame on them who have spurned their original support base and morphed into the well heeled bourgeois vote.

Latino and Black voters are mostly "well-heeled bourgeois?"

And whose fault is that? The Democrats have always depended on the Latino and Black American vote because they love to keep them dependent on the welfare system -- but as for "well-heeled bourgeois" - I am quite certain that many Asian Americans and the Jewish population fall into that category, so there are some who won't take the welfare dime. The call to label lower classed less educated Americans stinks of snobbery and elitism from many in the liberal left (who profess equality for all and everyone should have the same opportunities and suck up to PC bullshit - as long as you are an ethnic minority the left will give you a hug) - they totally dismiss the lower American class just as the working class is dismissed in the UK - last time I looked the working class population of the UK was about 25 million - I would hate to think what the number is in the USA but I have a feeling it will scare the beejeezus out of the elitist left wing who have abandoned these people to their own devices and ignore them. When you call Trump supporters "idiots" it is total snobbery from some who may well be more financially and educationally better off. In the UK snobs are strongly despised by the working class and for good reason too. Snobbery is just as bad as racism if you ask me and as is often noted - snobs are NIMBYs - not in my back yard - they shout a great battle cry but do they house the refugees or let them camp on their manicured lawns - hardly. You won't know what hits you if the working class gets motivated to oust you!

[ilostmypassword]

Cough, sputter, gulp, spits...politically submerged? How dare you, sir!

"Trump gets the support that he does from an anti intellectual, disenchanted, yes paranoid but more importantly and forgivably, an economically repressed voting public with little hope of improvement in their lives."

It is pathetic isn't it? Believing Donald Trump is going to be your savior. As if he actually gives a rat's ass about them. At least you admit who is peeps are (you forgot low-info). The YUGE problem for the Republicans is that there ain't enough of them and there won't be any new ones. He continues to alienate everyone including dedicated Republicans who have come to the realization that the Donald has become toxic.

A dumpster fire of a campaign, just like I knew it would be. Maybe better. 5 months till the Donald goes back to reality TV and the Republican party finishes it's self-immolation.

I hope when HRC is elected with the congressional majority, she doesn't waste time trying to work with the Republicans like Obama did. Pedal to the metal, day one. See ya.

Haha Pinot don't drown. I do understand you. Yes it may well be pathetic believing Trump's erratic rhetoric and he may not give a rat's ass too. But where else can they go? That huge population of disenchanted voters cannot vote Democrat when actually their lives are worth less after 8 years and feel and they have no other representation but from a "miracle worker" that they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision as so often expressed here. It is the Dems who naturally should be their support base, (not some Rep wild card) and shame on them who have spurned their original support base and morphed into the well heeled bourgeois vote.

shame on them who have spurned their original support base and morphed into the well heeled bourgeois vote.

Latino and Black voters are mostly "well-heeled bourgeois?"

And whose fault is that? The Democrats have always depended on the Latino and Black American vote because they love to keep them dependent on the welfare system -- but as for "well-heeled bourgeois" - I am quite certain that many Asian Americans and the Jewish population fall into that category, so there are some who won't take the welfare dime. The call to label lower classed less educated Americans stinks of snobbery and elitism from many in the liberal left (who profess equality for all and everyone should have the same opportunities and suck up to PC bullshit - as long as you are an ethnic minority the left will give you a hug) - they totally dismiss the lower American class just as the working class is dismissed in the UK - last time I looked the working class population of the UK was about 25 million - I would hate to think what the number is in the USA but I have a feeling it will scare the beejeezus out of the elitist left wing who have abandoned these people to their own devices and ignore them. When you call Trump supporters "idiots" it is total snobbery from some who may well be more financially and educationally better off. In the UK snobs are strongly despised by the working class and for good reason too. Snobbery is just as bad as racism if you ask me and as is often noted - snobs are NIMBYs - not in my back yard - they shout a great battle cry but do they house the refugees or let them camp on their manicured lawns - hardly. You won't know what hits you if the working class gets motivated to oust you!

Nice bigoted assumptions about black and hispanic people. According to you, the working class is composed almost entirely of white people.

Here's some hard data for you: In 2014, the latest year I could find data for, the labor participation rate for white people was 63.1 %. For black people 61.2%. And for Hispanics 66.1%.

I'm using the labor participation rate because that's the one that conservatives seem particularly enamored of, because, to their way of thinking, it's more accurate.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm

Edited June 19, 2016 by ilostmypassword

[neverdie]

Yes, the USA is in ur chartered waters and the rest of the world drags along in its wake.

We are fast approaching times depicted in the 1970ies film 'Mad Max'.

I'm fairly sure Donald was depicted in the film, leather clad speeding down the highway yelling "I am the night rider!"

.......eventually there was a car wreck.

The parallels between the movie and the present presidential race are remarkable.

Edited June 19, 2016 by neverdie

[Publicus]

<<snip>> Yes it may well be pathetic believing Trump's erratic rhetoric and he may not give a rat's ass too. But where else can they go? That huge population of disenchanted voters cannot vote Democrat when actually their lives are worth less after 8 years and feel and they have no other representation but from a "miracle worker" that they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision as so often expressed here. It is the Dems who naturally should be their support base, (not some Rep wild card) and shame on them who have spurned their original support base and morphed into the well heeled bourgeois vote.

shame on them who have spurned their original support base and morphed into the well heeled bourgeois vote.

Latino and Black voters are mostly "well-heeled bourgeois?"

And whose fault is that? The Democrats have always depended on the Latino and Black American vote because they love to keep them dependent on the welfare system -- but as for "well-heeled bourgeois" - I am quite certain that many Asian Americans and the Jewish population fall into that category, so there are some who won't take the welfare dime. The call to label lower classed less educated Americans stinks of snobbery and elitism from many in the liberal left (who profess equality for all and everyone should have the same opportunities and suck up to PC bullshit - as long as you are an ethnic minority the left will give you a hug) - they totally dismiss the lower American class just as the working class is dismissed in the UK - last time I looked the working class population of the UK was about 25 million - I would hate to think what the number is in the USA but I have a feeling it will scare the beejeezus out of the elitist left wing who have abandoned these people to their own devices and ignore them. When you call Trump supporters "idiots" it is total snobbery from some who may well be more financially and educationally better off. In the UK snobs are strongly despised by the working class and for good reason too. Snobbery is just as bad as racism if you ask me and as is often noted - snobs are NIMBYs - not in my back yard - they shout a great battle cry but do they house the refugees or let them camp on their manicured lawns - hardly. You won't know what hits you if the working class gets motivated to oust you!

snobbery and elitism from many in the liberal left,,,the elitist left wing...total snobbery from some who may well be more financially and educationally better off

It is undoubtedly true the "liberal left" don't chaw tubbaca much.

By the same token, The Ignoramus Trump has his hard core of rightparawingnoids who are driving his candidacy from the extreme fringe, particularly concerning statements about the loyalty or allegiance of Potus.

Keep at it however cause youse guyz over and out there haven't any clue how much you're benefiting the people youse are passionately against. Long term fiercely against.

Bernie Sanders for instance isn't my guy in this contest but I'd have beer with him any time and on me besides. Bernie is after all at his best when he's free to speak his mind. Others when they are free to speak their mind are at their worst.

[Publicus]

The worst instance of the paranoid style in politics and socio-economics was Germany from 1930-1945, as Prof. Hofstadter pointed out. (On the Left it was Stalin.)

Nothing academic about these whackjob leaders and their sycophants or concerning the paranoid style of a political culture. They are indeed real. Horrendously real. Mussolini and Rome had got off to an earlier start but had been little more than the Reich's accomplice.

Let's not support, try to justify or to apologise for the campaign to become that which we once fought against to defeat once and for all. It is incumbent on the AntiRight to oppose the boors and their knowing advocates because all of 'em need to be confronted and stopped, regardless of whether or not they recognise or realise their destructive course of action.

Any reasonably educated or otherwise perceptive person knows exactly where the Trump Train is headed if it can find its way through to its end game.

"There is nothing to overlook or to forgive in Donald Trump" Of course I'm watching him skeptically all the time. What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

Not to worry Publicus, you can be sure I would stand alongside you in any anti Nazi war as I am sure you would alongside me in any anti Stalinist war. Right?

Except we have to accept we're just keyboard warriors instead!

What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

What you said was that it is forgivable for a specified socio-economic grouping among the electorate to be bigots while it is unforgivable for another socio-economic voting group to be educated and to proceed according to a developmental social concept or a rational cultural preference (to include the core feature of language and terminology).

It seems here the difference in your preference is that the bigots are honest and straightforward while the educated developmentalists are somehow otherwise, perhaps opposite.

Given my own military service and oath of loyalty to the Constitution yes of course I'd for certain fight against either or both the Nazis or Stalin and their morbid types. Yes, of course, same as my father fought in WW II against against the totalitarian dictators of the time.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Publicus

[Chicog]

In a late afternoon rally in Phoenix, where temperatures reached 109 degrees, the media-minded real estate developer bragged about the number of magazines that have placed him on their covers in recent months. "I feel like a supermodel, except like times 10," he said. "I'm a supermodel."

Given that they're mostly vacuous airheads, this time I have to agree with him.

[Linzz]

The worst instance of the paranoid style in politics and socio-economics was Germany from 1930-1945, as Prof. Hofstadter pointed out. (On the Left it was Stalin.)

Nothing academic about these whackjob leaders and their sycophants or concerning the paranoid style of a political culture. They are indeed real. Horrendously real. Mussolini and Rome had got off to an earlier start but had been little more than the Reich's accomplice.

Let's not support, try to justify or to apologise for the campaign to become that which we once fought against to defeat once and for all. It is incumbent on the AntiRight to oppose the boors and their knowing advocates because all of 'em need to be confronted and stopped, regardless of whether or not they recognise or realise their destructive course of action.

Any reasonably educated or otherwise perceptive person knows exactly where the Trump Train is headed if it can find its way through to its end game.

"There is nothing to overlook or to forgive in Donald Trump" Of course I'm watching him skeptically all the time. What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

Not to worry Publicus, you can be sure I would stand alongside you in any anti Nazi war as I am sure you would alongside me in any anti Stalinist war. Right?

Except we have to accept we're just keyboard warriors instead!

What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

What you said was that it is forgivable for a specified socio-economic grouping among the electorate to be bigots while it is unforgivable for another socio-economic voting group to be educated and to proceed according to a developmental social concept or a rational cultural preference (to include the core feature of language and terminology).

It seems here the difference in your preference is that the bigots are honest and straightforward while the educated developmentalists are somehow otherwise, perhaps opposite.

Given my own military service and oath of loyalty to the Constitution yes of course I'd for certain fight against either or both the Nazis or Stalin and their morbid types. Yes, of course, same as my father fought in WW II against against the totalitarian dictators of the time.

Yes my Dad too.

My reply to Pinot explained it: "they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision"

My comments pertaining to lower class bigots was not condoning bigotry as such but my sympathy (rather than condemnation often expressed on TVF ) for the uneducated poor and perhaps the easily manipulated, so in that sense their bigotry was forgivable. Perhaps I should amend that to 'understandable'. That was preferable within the confines of honesty yes, where the tone of the educated so called, is very often elitist and condescending also well expressed on TVF, so I agree with Nealthewheel on that point.

Not sure how you can draw a comparison to Goldwater's slogan to anything I've said "Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" is more akin to "Give me liberty or give me death" from a speech made by Patrick Henry in 1775 in relation the the American War of Independence.

However Barry Goldwater was a politician greatly feared at the same time I believe you and Hillary supported. We worried of the possibility of his threats to nuke China or North Vietnam at a time of heightened awareness of nuclear threat and around the time of the birth of the CND

Edited June 20, 2016 by Linzz

[Publicus]

The worst instance of the paranoid style in politics and socio-economics was Germany from 1930-1945, as Prof. Hofstadter pointed out. (On the Left it was Stalin.)

Nothing academic about these whackjob leaders and their sycophants or concerning the paranoid style of a political culture. They are indeed real. Horrendously real. Mussolini and Rome had got off to an earlier start but had been little more than the Reich's accomplice.

Let's not support, try to justify or to apologise for the campaign to become that which we once fought against to defeat once and for all. It is incumbent on the AntiRight to oppose the boors and their knowing advocates because all of 'em need to be confronted and stopped, regardless of whether or not they recognise or realise their destructive course of action.

Any reasonably educated or otherwise perceptive person knows exactly where the Trump Train is headed if it can find its way through to its end game.

"There is nothing to overlook or to forgive in Donald Trump" Of course I'm watching him skeptically all the time. What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

Not to worry Publicus, you can be sure I would stand alongside you in any anti Nazi war as I am sure you would alongside me in any anti Stalinist war. Right?

Except we have to accept we're just keyboard warriors instead!

What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

What you said was that it is forgivable for a specified socio-economic grouping among the electorate to be bigots while it is unforgivable for another socio-economic voting group to be educated and to proceed according to a developmental social concept or a rational cultural preference (to include the core feature of language and terminology).

It seems here the difference in your preference is that the bigots are honest and straightforward while the educated developmentalists are somehow otherwise, perhaps opposite.

Given my own military service and oath of loyalty to the Constitution yes of course I'd for certain fight against either or both the Nazis or Stalin and their morbid types. Yes, of course, same as my father fought in WW II against against the totalitarian dictators of the time.

Yes my Dad too.

My reply to Pinot explained it: "they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision"

My comments pertaining to lower class bigots was not condoning bigotry as such but my sympathy (rather than condemnation often expressed on TVF ) for the uneducated poor and perhaps the easily manipulated, so in that sense their bigotry was forgivable. Perhaps I should amend that to 'understandable'. That was preferable within the confines of honesty yes, where the tone of the educated so called, is very often elitist and condescending also well expressed on TVF, so I agree with Nealthewheel on that point.

Not sure how you can draw a comparison to Goldwater's slogan to anything I've said "Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" is more akin to "Give me liberty or give me death" from a speech made by Patrick Henry in 1775 in relation the the American War of Independence.

However Barry Goldwater was a politician greatly feared at the same time I believe you and Hillary supported. We worried of the possibility of his threats to nuke China or North Vietnam at a time of heightened awareness of nuclear threat and around the time of the birth of the CND

My god.

To attempt to equate Barry Goldwater to Patrick Henry is mortifying. It does of course lead illogically to "understanding" with a "sympathy" the dolts on the rightwingnoid fringes of American society who support Donald Trump, to say almost nothing of The Ignoramus Himself.

The Uniquely American Mussolini.

Conversely, it is 'understandable' they who can find a sympathy for Trump and his peasant-equivalent supporters can also be wounded to some extent by the use of the terms presented in my posts during this campaign, and which shall continue to appear in my posts from some time to come.

Gonna have to live with it the same as the vast majority of us have to live with the barbarian Trump being at the gates for the next several more months.

[ilostmypassword]

"There is nothing to overlook or to forgive in Donald Trump" Of course I'm watching him skeptically all the time. What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

Not to worry Publicus, you can be sure I would stand alongside you in any anti Nazi war as I am sure you would alongside me in any anti Stalinist war. Right?

Except we have to accept we're just keyboard warriors instead!

What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

What you said was that it is forgivable for a specified socio-economic grouping among the electorate to be bigots while it is unforgivable for another socio-economic voting group to be educated and to proceed according to a developmental social concept or a rational cultural preference (to include the core feature of language and terminology).

It seems here the difference in your preference is that the bigots are honest and straightforward while the educated developmentalists are somehow otherwise, perhaps opposite.

Given my own military service and oath of loyalty to the Constitution yes of course I'd for certain fight against either or both the Nazis or Stalin and their morbid types. Yes, of course, same as my father fought in WW II against against the totalitarian dictators of the time.

Yes my Dad too.

My reply to Pinot explained it: "they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision"

My comments pertaining to lower class bigots was not condoning bigotry as such but my sympathy (rather than condemnation often expressed on TVF ) for the uneducated poor and perhaps the easily manipulated, so in that sense their bigotry was forgivable. Perhaps I should amend that to 'understandable'. That was preferable within the confines of honesty yes, where the tone of the educated so called, is very often elitist and condescending also well expressed on TVF, so I agree with Nealthewheel on that point.

Not sure how you can draw a comparison to Goldwater's slogan to anything I've said "Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" is more akin to "Give me liberty or give me death" from a speech made by Patrick Henry in 1775 in relation the the American War of Independence.

However Barry Goldwater was a politician greatly feared at the same time I believe you and Hillary supported. We worried of the possibility of his threats to nuke China or North Vietnam at a time of heightened awareness of nuclear threat and around the time of the birth of the CND

My god.

To attempt to equate Barry Goldwater to Patrick Henry is mortifying. It does of course lead illogically to "understanding" with a "sympathy" the dolts on the rightwingnoid fringes of American society who support Donald Trump, to say almost nothing of The Ignoramus Himself.

The Uniquely American Mussolini.

Conversely, it is 'understandable' they who can find a sympathy for Trump and his peasant-equivalent supporters can also be wounded to some extent by the use of the terms presented in my posts during this campaign, and which shall continue to appear in my posts from some time to come.

Gonna have to live with it the same as the vast majority of us have to live with the barbarian Trump being at the gates for the next several more months.

Actually, Patrick Henry was opposed to the Constitution because it gave the Federal Government too much power. He also was against the separation of church and state. He supported state-sponsored religion.

[Publicus]

Yes as any polysci major worth his salt would know of P. Henry. It is of course the "liberty" thingy the poster went pear shaped on in his own terms.

I'd just mention our objection over on this side is that Trump does indeed not know anything of the Constitution, that Trump knows little more about so-called "state's rights" and easily aligns himself with those fringe elements that consider the USA a Christian nation and who'd love to formalise that in (charter) law.

Clarence Thomas for instance has argued the Incorporation Doctrine by which the 14th Amendment encompasses the First Amendment means the states can establish their own official religion while the Feds cannot. This is of course yet another way for the crackpot religious right to destroy the separation of church and state as rooted in Henry's fellow Virginian Thomas Jefferson by Scotus incorporating Jefferson's famous and historic letter into the Establishment Clause.

A good number of us on this side know eons more about this than does Donald Trump and almost all of his angry Faux-fogged supporters or his campaign advisors.

[Linzz]

What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

What you said was that it is forgivable for a specified socio-economic grouping among the electorate to be bigots while it is unforgivable for another socio-economic voting group to be educated and to proceed according to a developmental social concept or a rational cultural preference (to include the core feature of language and terminology).

It seems here the difference in your preference is that the bigots are honest and straightforward while the educated developmentalists are somehow otherwise, perhaps opposite.

Given my own military service and oath of loyalty to the Constitution yes of course I'd for certain fight against either or both the Nazis or Stalin and their morbid types. Yes, of course, same as my father fought in WW II against against the totalitarian dictators of the time.

Yes my Dad too.

My reply to Pinot explained it: "they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision"

My comments pertaining to lower class bigots was not condoning bigotry as such but my sympathy (rather than condemnation often expressed on TVF ) for the uneducated poor and perhaps the easily manipulated, so in that sense their bigotry was forgivable. Perhaps I should amend that to 'understandable'. That was preferable within the confines of honesty yes, where the tone of the educated so called, is very often elitist and condescending also well expressed on TVF, so I agree with Nealthewheel on that point.

Not sure how you can draw a comparison to Goldwater's slogan to anything I've said "Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" is more akin to "Give me liberty or give me death" from a speech made by Patrick Henry in 1775 in relation the the American War of Independence.

However Barry Goldwater was a politician greatly feared at the same time I believe you and Hillary supported. We worried of the possibility of his threats to nuke China or North Vietnam at a time of heightened awareness of nuclear threat and around the time of the birth of the CND

My god.

To attempt to equate Barry Goldwater to Patrick Henry is mortifying. It does of course lead illogically to "understanding" with a "sympathy" the dolts on the rightwingnoid fringes of American society who support Donald Trump, to say almost nothing of The Ignoramus Himself.

The Uniquely American Mussolini.

Conversely, it is 'understandable' they who can find a sympathy for Trump and his peasant-equivalent supporters can also be wounded to some extent by the use of the terms presented in my posts during this campaign, and which shall continue to appear in my posts from some time to come.

Gonna have to live with it the same as the vast majority of us have to live with the barbarian Trump being at the gates for the next several more months.

Well this is a real reversion to form when I was actually giving some consideration to these posts..

Barry Goldwater's slogan is as close as one will ever get to Patrick Henry's "give me liberty or give me death" and Goldwater's "Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice," what could be more extreme than death or self sacrifice? I never said they were equivalent in person or personality.

Intolerance from a fixed opinion sitting in the rarefied air of godly heights simply proves my earlier premise. To use the words "dolts" and "peasant" well illustrates the self aggrandizement I was talking about. Others have mentioned intellectual snobbery.

I do not wish to be insulted by a predilection for joining dots to reach the conclusions desired. Simply because I often post opposing certain themes does not make me a Trump supporter. I have never said so. An understanding of Trump supporters is not the same as sympathy for Trump. But some posters quickly toss others into their pool of disgust and vitriol because of their own insatiable needs to pigeon hole and obtain recognition.

Posters are free to castigate Trump at will but "rightwingenuts" stuff aimed at other TVF members is labored, boring and counterproductive and really says more about poster's rhetoric needing to imitate the main object of their derision especially when frustration is exposed.

Ironic really.

[nealthewheel]

What I said was it was forgivable for his voters to be clutching at straws.

What you said was that it is forgivable for a specified socio-economic grouping among the electorate to be bigots while it is unforgivable for another socio-economic voting group to be educated and to proceed according to a developmental social concept or a rational cultural preference (to include the core feature of language and terminology).

It seems here the difference in your preference is that the bigots are honest and straightforward while the educated developmentalists are somehow otherwise, perhaps opposite.

Given my own military service and oath of loyalty to the Constitution yes of course I'd for certain fight against either or both the Nazis or Stalin and their morbid types. Yes, of course, same as my father fought in WW II against against the totalitarian dictators of the time.

Yes my Dad too.

My reply to Pinot explained it: "they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision"

My comments pertaining to lower class bigots was not condoning bigotry as such but my sympathy (rather than condemnation often expressed on TVF ) for the uneducated poor and perhaps the easily manipulated, so in that sense their bigotry was forgivable. Perhaps I should amend that to 'understandable'. That was preferable within the confines of honesty yes, where the tone of the educated so called, is very often elitist and condescending also well expressed on TVF, so I agree with Nealthewheel on that point.

Not sure how you can draw a comparison to Goldwater's slogan to anything I've said "Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" is more akin to "Give me liberty or give me death" from a speech made by Patrick Henry in 1775 in relation the the American War of Independence.

However Barry Goldwater was a politician greatly feared at the same time I believe you and Hillary supported. We worried of the possibility of his threats to nuke China or North Vietnam at a time of heightened awareness of nuclear threat and around the time of the birth of the CND

My god.

To attempt to equate Barry Goldwater to Patrick Henry is mortifying. It does of course lead illogically to "understanding" with a "sympathy" the dolts on the rightwingnoid fringes of American society who support Donald Trump, to say almost nothing of The Ignoramus Himself.

The Uniquely American Mussolini.

Conversely, it is 'understandable' they who can find a sympathy for Trump and his peasant-equivalent supporters can also be wounded to some extent by the use of the terms presented in my posts during this campaign, and which shall continue to appear in my posts from some time to come.

Gonna have to live with it the same as the vast majority of us have to live with the barbarian Trump being at the gates for the next several more months.

Well this is a real reversion to form when I was actually giving some consideration to these posts..

Barry Goldwater's slogan is as close as one will ever get to Patrick Henry's "give me liberty or give me death" and Goldwater's "Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice," what could be more extreme than death or self sacrifice? I never said they were equivalent in person or personality.

Intolerance from a fixed opinion sitting in the rarefied air of godly heights simply proves my earlier premise. To use the words "dolts" and "peasant" well illustrates the self aggrandizement I was talking about. Others have mentioned intellectual snobbery.

I do not wish to be insulted by a predilection for joining dots to reach the conclusions desired. Simply because I often post opposing certain themes does not make me a Trump supporter. I have never said so. An understanding of Trump supporters is not the same as sympathy for Trump. But some posters quickly toss others into their pool of disgust and vitriol because of their own insatiable needs to pigeon hole and obtain recognition.

Posters are free to castigate Trump at will but "rightwingenuts" stuff aimed at other TVF members is labored, boring and counterproductive and really says more about poster's rhetoric needing to imitate the main object of their derision especially when frustration is exposed.

Ironic really.

Agreed. Yes, very ironic. So much for the intellectual and moral high ground. Calling people peasants in this day and age is certainly grandiose and if Publicus were "lord of the manor" - I am sure we would all be in the stocks or gibbet. Peasants brings to mind a country bumpkin dressed in homespun with a floppy hat and yielding a pitchfork, hoe or rake, with a stalk of straw hanging from his mouth and charging the barricades in the pursuit to have freedom of speech implemented again that was snatched from him and his comrades in the name of Political Correctness. Your objectivity is in question by using that term and an insult to every working man - or is all your diatribe just a troll????

[Publicus]

Lotta tender feelings over there on the Trump right and among the Trump sympaticos. Youse guyz have skin as thin as Trump has.

Disappointed also youse guyz didn't do more with the gimme to you of the 'peasant' remark. Youse could have hit it out of the park but all you got was a Texas League opposite field bloop single off the end of the bat. Aka a dying quail (e) to recall another dufus from an earlier time...the small potato head guy who wasn't any smarter than a fifth grader.

Your posts are all over the place historically, as in trying to connect Patrick Henry, Barry Goldwater, Donald Trump. For one thing, Patrick Henry (with George Washington) won his war, Goldwater lost his campaign (big time) and in this one Donald Trump is already so deep in the tank that all we're getting are his gurgles (something now about profiling Muslims now then the laffing left later on after that).

Donald Trump is a Birther who is now saying out loud from the mangled jigsaw of his muddled mind that President Barack Obama secretly sympathises with ISIS against the United States. Trump is a crackpot lunatic wildman wingnoid.

The choice in November is between the madam or the madman.

Kindly keep the line moving plse thx.

[Linzz]

Yes my Dad too.

My reply to Pinot explained it: "they even may clutch straws in some vain hope. They have my utmost sympathy, not derision"

My comments pertaining to lower class bigots was not condoning bigotry as such but my sympathy (rather than condemnation often expressed on TVF ) for the uneducated poor and perhaps the easily manipulated, so in that sense their bigotry was forgivable. Perhaps I should amend that to 'understandable'. That was preferable within the confines of honesty yes, where the tone of the educated so called, is very often elitist and condescending also well expressed on TVF, so I agree with Nealthewheel on that point.

Not sure how you can draw a comparison to Goldwater's slogan to anything I've said "Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue" is more akin to "Give me liberty or give me death" from a speech made by Patrick Henry in 1775 in relation the the American War of Independence.

However Barry Goldwater was a politician greatly feared at the same time I believe you and Hillary supported. We worried of the possibility of his threats to nuke China or North Vietnam at a time of heightened awareness of nuclear threat and around the time of the birth of the CND

My god.

To attempt to equate Barry Goldwater to Patrick Henry is mortifying. It does of course lead illogically to "understanding" with a "sympathy" the dolts on the rightwingnoid fringes of American society who support Donald Trump, to say almost nothing of The Ignoramus Himself.

The Uniquely American Mussolini.

Conversely, it is 'understandable' they who can find a sympathy for Trump and his peasant-equivalent supporters can also be wounded to some extent by the use of the terms presented in my posts during this campaign, and which shall continue to appear in my posts from some time to come.

Gonna have to live with it the same as the vast majority of us have to live with the barbarian Trump being at the gates for the next several more months.

Well this is a real reversion to form when I was actually giving some consideration to these posts..

Barry Goldwater's slogan is as close as one will ever get to Patrick Henry's "give me liberty or give me death" and Goldwater's "Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice," what could be more extreme than death or self sacrifice? I never said they were equivalent in person or personality.

Intolerance from a fixed opinion sitting in the rarefied air of godly heights simply proves my earlier premise. To use the words "dolts" and "peasant" well illustrates the self aggrandizement I was talking about. Others have mentioned intellectual snobbery.

I do not wish to be insulted by a predilection for joining dots to reach the conclusions desired. Simply because I often post opposing certain themes does not make me a Trump supporter. I have never said so. An understanding of Trump supporters is not the same as sympathy for Trump. But some posters quickly toss others into their pool of disgust and vitriol because of their own insatiable needs to pigeon hole and obtain recognition.

Posters are free to castigate Trump at will but "rightwingenuts" stuff aimed at other TVF members is labored, boring and counterproductive and really says more about poster's rhetoric needing to imitate the main object of their derision especially when frustration is exposed.

Ironic really.

Agreed. Yes, very ironic. So much for the intellectual and moral high ground. Calling people peasants in this day and age is certainly grandiose and if Publicus were "lord of the manor" - I am sure we would all be in the stocks or gibbet. Peasants brings to mind a country bumpkin dressed in homespun with a floppy hat and yielding a pitchfork, hoe or rake, with a stalk of straw hanging from his mouth and charging the barricades in the pursuit to have freedom of speech implemented again that was snatched from him and his comrades in the name of Political Correctness. Your objectivity is in question by using that term and an insult to every working man - or is all your diatribe just a troll????

LOL No problem Neal, the poser poster in question is bound to return with a disingenuous talk down lecture and a bunch of sneers. He doesn't really comprehend the posts because his mind is overflowing with what BS clever talk out of Ivory Tower he can dream up next. Best to ignore his ego race to the bottom. In any event certainly a lot of material for psychoanalysis over there

[Linzz]

Lotta tender feelings over there on the Trump right and among the Trump sympaticos. Youse guyz have skin as thin as Trump has.

Disappointed also youse guyz didn't do more with the gimme to you of the 'peasant' remark. Youse could have hit it out of the park but all you got was a Texas League opposite field bloop single off the end of the bat. Aka a dying quail (e) to recall another dufus from an earlier time...the small potato head guy who wasn't any smarter than a fifth grader.

Your posts are all over the place historically, as in trying to connect Patrick Henry, Barry Goldwater, Donald Trump. For one thing, Patrick Henry (with George Washington) won his war, Goldwater lost his campaign (big time) and in this one Donald Trump is already so deep in the tank that all we're getting are his gurgles (something now about profiling Muslims now then the laffing left later on after that).

Donald Trump is a Birther who is now saying out loud from the mangled jigsaw of his muddled mind that President Barack Obama secretly sympathises with ISIS against the United States. Trump is a crackpot lunatic wildman wingnoid.

The choice in November is between the madam or the madman.

Kindly keep the line moving plse thx.