So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[dick dasterdly]

15 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

I agree dd, but we need only read the sentiments expressed here on TVF to understand that attacks are the tip of the iceberg.

 

The racism and xenophobia that Brexit chose to place at the heart of their campaign plays with arguably the most dangerous forces in society.

 

 

Politicians telling the bottom class that they would be even worse off if we left the EU, was nearly as bad.

Edited September 1, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[jayboy]

 

I agree dd, but we need only read the sentiments expressed here on TVF to understand that attacks are the tip of the iceberg.

 

The racism and xenophobia that Brexit chose to place at the heart of their campaign plays with arguably the most dangerous forces in society.

 

 

Your first para doesn't make sense.In what way were these awful attacks the tip of the iceberg and where on TV has sympathy been expressed for them?

Your second para seems almost equally deluded.Are you suggesting to show concern at the economic and social effects of large scale immigration amounts to racism and xenophobia? There were many more issues besides immigration behind the Brexit victory.

[ljd1308]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Similarly, I'd say that someone with a degree in geography/physics/chemistry etc. etc. are also unlikely to know much about the EU.

 

They are likely though to live in a 'nice' area and have no clue as to the life of those poor, uneducated people.

The point I was making was more to do with a certain element that consider education and expertise to be something to avoid.

Not that any education is better in every circumstance.

 

There are experts in this field though, why was the decision not left to them rather than a referendum that includes everybody who(as you say) hasn't the first idea about the EU?

 

It has nothing to do with class, more to do with knowledge. How can you get the right answer from someone who doesn't understand the question?

[Khun Han]

8 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Yes, but what a smart move on the part of May ... put the three Amigo's in charge and let's see then deliver on their promises. The whispers coming out of the Civil Service (who understand the issues) is how clueless the ministers are about how the EU actually works ... doesn't augur well for the future negotiations ... my question is what happens if they fail to deliver an acceptable outcome? 

 

I'm not calling you a a liar, Alex, but this smells of 'a friend of a friend told me', which is probably meaningless.

 

Your question about brexit outcome is a fair one that has been asked a lot. I keep asking why remainers think the outcome will be poor for Britain, but I haven't had one decent answer. My answer to your question is that, even if the brexit ministers are on a steep learning curve (as you hint at), they will simply not present a poor deal to the population (and electorate of course) for obvious reasons.

 

And my take on it is that the EU can go to war with us over trade, but it would be far more hurtful to them than to us. And, because it would be particularly hurtful to Germany, it just won't happen that way.

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, ljd1308 said:

The point I was making was more to do with a certain element that consider education and expertise to be something to avoid.

Not that any education is better in every circumstance.

 

There are experts in this field though, why was the decision not left to them rather than a referendum that includes everybody who(as you say) hasn't the first idea about the EU?

 

It has nothing to do with class, more to do with knowledge. How can you get the right answer from someone who doesn't understand the question?

 

The standard mantra of the anti-democrat. Thailand has been held thirty years behind the times by your type. Thankfully, your type aren't pre-eminent in the West, which is a primary reason why our countries have developed as much as they have .

[ljd1308]

2 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

The standard mantra of the anti-democrat. Thailand has been held thirty years behind the times by your type. Thankfully, your type aren't pre-eminent in the West, which is a primary reason why our countries have developed as much as they have .

I am not sure what you are trying to imply here with "your type".

 

I am the type of person who if I have a problem with my car goes to the mechanic....because he has more knowledge about cars than me. Is that wrong?

 

Are you the type of person who fiddles around with your car hoping you can guess right and fix it yourself?

 

Don't you vote for people in a democracy to represent your interests?

 

I know you have no answers to any of the questions I have asked you previously and are no doubt trying to cloud the issue with your insinuations about me, but why can you not have an open an honest conversation about your views?

Are you ashamed of not knowing what you voted for?

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

 

Your first para doesn't make sense.In what way were these awful attacks the tip of the iceberg and where on TV has sympathy been expressed for them?

Your second para seems almost equally deluded.Are you suggesting to show concern at the economic and social effects of large scale immigration amounts to racism and xenophobia? There were many more issues besides immigration behind the Brexit victory.

 

 

 

The real danger to  British society comes from the rather unsavoury encouragement/education toward national self-loathing that has been propagated by certain academical types in recent decades. They use events from our history, our multicultural mix, etc to try to brainwash people into rejecting Britishness. Truly appalling, and a fast track to national disaster.

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

 

You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

Bringing a violent act in a known area of trouble into a Brexit debate is pathetic. The media will hype it as 'hate crime' but I would like to say that I thought you would know better - sadly I can't.

It is the brexiteers that should be ashamed. The rhetoric put forward by the leave campaign convinced a certain element of the UK population that Europeans do not belong in the UK and should be forced to go home, and because people keep saying that they have won,they think it should happen immediately.

 

Of course the brexiteers refuse to acknowledge that the rise in hate crime has anything to do with them. The whole leave campaign centred on the immigration issue and wether you accept it or not that is what you voted on. The government is now up the creek without a paddle over the issue of free movement.

 

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, ljd1308 said:

I am not sure what you are trying to imply here with "your type".

 

I am the type of person who if I have a problem with my car goes to the mechanic....because he has more knowledge about cars than me. Is that wrong?

 

Are you the type of person who fiddles around with your car hoping you can guess right and fix it yourself?

 

Don't you vote for people in a democracy to represent your interests?

 

I know you have no answers to any of the questions I have asked you previously and are no doubt trying to cloud the issue with your insinuations about me, but why can you not have an open an honest conversation about your views?

Are you ashamed of not knowing what you voted for?

 

You, personally, get the answers you deserve because of your appalling condescending and derogatory debating style.

 

I have stated my position and views on brexit (and frequently expanded on them) throughout these discussions. The fact that you keep pretending that I (and other brexiters) avoid doing so says a lot about you and nothing about us  .

[AlexRich]

31 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I'm not calling you a a liar, Alex, but this smells of 'a friend of a friend told me', which is probably meaningless.

 

Your question about brexit outcome is a fair one that has been asked a lot. I keep asking why remainers think the outcome will be poor for Britain, but I haven't had one decent answer. My answer to your question is that, even if the brexit ministers are on a steep learning curve (as you hint at), they will simply not present a poor deal to the population (and electorate of course) for obvious reasons.

 

And my take on it is that the EU can go to war with us over trade, but it would be far more hurtful to them than to us. And, because it would be particularly hurtful to Germany, it just won't happen that way.

 

Not inside information, newspaper reports that Civil Servants with experience and understanding about the working of the EU are shocked at how lacking in knowledge the Government is ... David Davis in one article accused of not understanding how the EU conducts trade deals ... but there have been several articles of that nature.

 

I suppose if you're convinced that it is a great result for Britain you won't be interested in hearing any argument as to why it is not? I'll give you a few, there are more:

 

1) Our future economic growth potential will be slower, and might turn negative in the short term.

2) Our currency will fall, resulting in higher prices in shops.

3) The 500 plus European HQ's that are housed in the UK may leave if the deal is not accommodating to them.

4) Trade deals with neighbours tend to be much more valuable than with countries far away, we've made our situation worse by leaving the EU, so that trade will be more expensive.

5) New trade deals will take a very long time to develop and will probably not make up for what is lost.

6) Immigration will remain high near term and those that are here before Article 50 will not be asked to leave once the two years are up, lest we have a flood of poor and hacked off UK retirees back to our shore. Once we have control we'll discover that we actually need immigrants ... is that what people voted for?

7) The so-called saving of £350m will be wiped out by lower GDP and the impact of higher government borrowings (not that the savings quoted ever existed in the first place!).

 

 

 

 

[GuestHouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Politicians telling the bottom class that they would be even worse off if we left the EU, was nearly as bad.

 

Are you seriously saying biased/partisan economic forecasts are in the same league of political mischief as stoking racism and xenophobia?

[ljd1308]

9 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

You, personally, get the answers you deserve because of your appalling condescending and derogatory debating style.

 

I have stated my position and views on brexit (and frequently expanded on them) throughout these discussions. The fact that you keep pretending that I (and other brexiters) avoid doing so says a lot about you and nothing about us  .

I apologise if that is the way I was coming across, it wasn't my intention.

But you did accuse me of being a holocaust denier, anti semite and anti democracy......so not really sure how you can get on your high horse.

 

You have answered, I recall that your answer was down to your forefathers fighting Germany.....I also recall you didn't know why they fought Germany.

 

 

 

[Khun Han]

5 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Not inside information, newspaper reports that Civil Servants with experience and understanding about the working of the EU are shocked at how lacking in knowledge the Government is ... David Davis in one article accused of not understanding how the EU conducts trade deals ... but there have been several articles of that nature.

 

I suppose if you're convinced that it is a great result for Britain you won't be interested in hearing any argument as to why it is not? I'll give you a few, there are more:

 

1) Our future economic growth potential will be slower, and might turn negative in the short term.

2) Our currency will fall, resulting in higher prices in shops.

3) The 500 plus European HQ's that are housed in the UK may leave if the deal is not accommodating to them.

4) Trade deals with neighbours tend to be much more valuable than with countries far away, we've made our situation worse by leaving the EU, so that trade will be more expensive.

5) New trade deals will take a very long time to develop and will probably not make up for what is lost.

6) Immigration will remain high near term and those that are here before Article 50 will not be asked to leave once the two years are up, lest we have a flood of poor and hacked off UK retirees back to our shore. Once we have control we'll discover that we actually need immigrants ... is that what people voted for?

7) The so-called saving of £350m will be wiped out by lower GDP and the impact of higher government borrowings (not that the savings quoted ever existed in the first place!).

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry Alex, your reply is pure, scaremongering, speculation. No doubt you can cite an assortment of 'experts' to support this rather hysterical vision. They were all also predicting this to happen in the immediate aftermath of the brexit vote. It didn't. I predict that there will be more normal ups and downs over the next couple of years, and that remainers will make daft excuses for the ups and jump all over the downs as being impending doom.

[sandyf]

48 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I'm not calling you a a liar, Alex, but this smells of 'a friend of a friend told me', which is probably meaningless.

 

Your question about brexit outcome is a fair one that has been asked a lot. I keep asking why remainers think the outcome will be poor for Britain, but I haven't had one decent answer. My answer to your question is that, even if the brexit ministers are on a steep learning curve (as you hint at), they will simply not present a poor deal to the population (and electorate of course) for obvious reasons.

 

And my take on it is that the EU can go to war with us over trade, but it would be far more hurtful to them than to us. And, because it would be particularly hurtful to Germany, it just won't happen that way.

There is a simple answer. Brexit will be concluded by a vote in the European Parliament.

Will the MEP's favour a deal that is in the best interests of the EU, or the UK?

 

Your comment about Germany is academic. The only trade deal that can be discussed before brexit is concluded is the single market. The UK cannot make any trade deals until after it has left the EU. So unless the UK stays in the single market nothing can be straightened out until its over.

[Khun Han]

That the brexit campaign stoked racism and xenophobia is pure fantasy, a myth created by remainers to deride brexit. Of course, brexit was always going to attract the tiny groupings of hardline racists, but the narrative that this was a core philosophy of brexit is outright misinformation.

[AlexRich]

8 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Sorry Alex, your reply is pure, scaremongering, speculation. No doubt you can cite an assortment of 'experts' to support this rather hysterical vision. They were all also predicting this to happen in the immediate aftermath of the brexit vote. It didn't. I predict that there will be more normal ups and downs over the next couple of years, and that remainers will make daft excuses for the ups and jump all over the downs as being impending doom.

 

Experts ... who needs them?

 

Funnily enough, the 3 Brexit Amigo's are trying to hire trade negotiation experts from around the world as we speak ... seems they might have something to offer after all? 

 

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

There is a simple answer. Brexit will be concluded by a vote in the European Parliament.

Will the MEP's favour a deal that is in the best interests of the EU, or the UK?

 

Your comment about Germany is academic. The only trade deal that can be discussed before brexit is concluded is the single market. The UK cannot make any trade deals until after it has left the EU. So unless the UK stays in the single market nothing can be straightened out until its over.

 

The EU cannot impose an 'agreement' on Britain. It can cite it's rules and try to get tough. But it's position is meaningless if we don't accept it. Maybe they can bring forward their proposed European Army and invade us? In reality, they can threaten, bluster and get into a trade war with us, but Germany won't allow a trade war out of self-interest, so after some commotion there will be a mutually agreeable settlement..

Edited September 1, 2016 by Khun Han

[JB300]

 

Experts ... who needs them?

 

Funnily enough, the 3 Brexit Amigo's are trying to hire trade negotiation experts from around the world as we speak ... seems they might have something to offer after all? 

 

In fairness it's pretty obvious that they'll need to recruit Trade negotiators given EU member countries are not allowed to enter into individual agreements so all trade negotiations are/have been done by the EU.

So, no EU country has or has needed their own negotiators.... Until now.

Edit: For me this is one of the biggest positives from Brexit as now the UK can negotiate with (say) India on terms that are favorable for us not a compromise on the needs/wants of 27 other countries... Obviously flip side is we don't have as much "clout"

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

The EU cannot impose an 'agreement' on Britain. It cite it's rules and try to get tough. But it's position is meaningless if we don't accept it. Maybe they can bring forward their proposed European Army and invade us? In reality, they can threaten, bluster and get into a trade war with us, but Germany won't allow a trade war out of self-interest, so after some commotion there will be a mutually agreeable settlement..

 

There is a two year window to negotiate exit from the EU ... what we owe them, what they owe us, etc ... if there is no agreement on future trade terms, which many experts believe cannot be done in two years, then the UK leave and revert to World Trade Organisation rules. 

 

You've based your hopes on Germany being worried about trade with the UK, you've given no thought to the chaos that would ensue if the EU membership began to collapse ... much more damaging for Germany (and us incidentally, whether in or out) ... so they will want to ensure that the deal is worse for Britain, not better.

 

 

 

[AlexRich]

4 minutes ago, JB300 said:

 

In fairness it's pretty obvious that they'll need to recruit Trade negotiators given EU member countries are not allowed to enter into individual agreements so all trade negotiations are/have been done by the EU.

So, no EU country has or has needed their own negotiators.... Until now.


 

 

 

I suppose, it was just a response to the pejorative statement about 'experts' ... it appears that they have their uses after all.

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Experts ... who needs them?

 

Funnily enough, the 3 Brexit Amigo's are trying to hire trade negotiation experts from around the world as we speak ... seems they might have something to offer after all? 

 

 

Different experts on the same subject always have many different opinions and advice. The real skill is in the decision-makers managing the rich assortment of expert opinions effectively.

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

There is a two year window to negotiate exit from the EU ... what we owe them, what they owe us, etc ... if there is no agreement on future trade terms, which many experts believe cannot be done in two years, then the UK leave and revert to World Trade Organisation rules. 

 

You've based your hopes on Germany being worried about trade with the UK, you've given no thought to the chaos that would ensue if the EU membership began to collapse ... much more damaging for Germany (and us incidentally, whether in or out) ... so they will want to ensure that the deal is worse for Britain, not better.

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with your assessment of Germany's position, and Merkel's behaviour post-brexit vote backs up mine.

[AlexRich]

16 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I don't agree with your assessment of Germany's position, and Merkel's behaviour post-brexit vote backs up mine.

 

Merkel was also very accommodating in her speeches towards Greece ... right up until the point when they screwed them!

 

[Khun Han]

Yes but Germany had Greece well-and- truly by the short and curlys by that point. A position it doesn't currently have Britain in, though it will eventually if we stay in the EU. A cautionary tale indeed.

[Linzz]

7 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Depends on whether the government come up with an appalling deal - something they may be tempted to do if they know they can they call another referendum at the conclusion of 'negotiations'.

 

Yeah that's right. Like in the World Cup. If you lose the cup final, just demand a rematch  or two  until you win

[autanic]

9 hours ago, cumgranosalum said:

 

referendums are not legally binding in the UK - and contrary to normal procedure - they are not democratic all they do is indicate what a majority of voters (those who actually voted) want on a particular day.

In the UK we have a government that is elected to do this sort of thing....they did a Pontius Pilot on the whole thing.

If there was an election today the referendum would be thrown out by a massive majority.

 

 

 

 

The Prime Minster of the UK has said, No second referendum, the result of the first and only one is the only valid one. There will be no vote parliment either. Brexit is going ahead. You lost my friend.

Brexit is in the best worst interest to Europeans and the Money Banksters and Corporate Elite who used the EU to garner huge sums, while the working class of Britain has seen little to no benefit in being a EU Citizen, except that somebody from a less well off part of the EU can come in snap up all the jobs and leave when they want.

 

Let me ask you a question, do you think the Referendum result would have been different if people would just listen to the little guys in the street.  The only Politicians listen is when they want re-election, then they make there quickly forgotten promises and it is a case of see you in 4 years time.

[cumgranosalum]

1 hour ago, autanic said:

 

The Prime Minster of the UK has said, No second referendum, the result of the first and only one is the only valid one. There will be no vote parliment either. Brexit is going ahead. You lost my friend.

Brexit is in the best worst interest to Europeans and the Money Banksters and Corporate Elite who used the EU to garner huge sums, while the working class of Britain has seen little to no benefit in being a EU Citizen, except that somebody from a less well off part of the EU can come in snap up all the jobs and leave when they want.

 

Let me ask you a question, do you think the Referendum result would have been different if people would just listen to the little guys in the street.  The only Politicians listen is when they want re-election, then they make there quickly forgotten promises and it is a case of see you in 4 years time.

watch this - listen to churchill......

 

march for Europe

 

"you lost" it isn't a football match, but keep thinking that it helps no end those wishing to remain.

[GuestHouse]

7 hours ago, MissAndry said:

 

I thought people from EU countries were generally the same race as Brits?

 

Thank you for giving me the oportunity to remove a cloak of semantics often used by racists to deny their racism.

 

The Crime and Disorder Act (1998)  - Under which racist abuse in the UK is prosecuted, defines 'race' as:

 

"A racial group means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins."

 

However an individual wishes to frame the idea of race, under UK law and in the context of racist abuse, attacks,

or any form of racist motivated crime, it is the above definition that the police, CPC and courts apply.

 

You can find further information on the matter here:

 

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/racist_and_religious_crime/#a01

Edited September 1, 2016 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

That the brexit campaign stoked racism and xenophobia is pure fantasy, a myth created by remainers to deride brexit. Of course, brexit was always going to attract the tiny groupings of hardline racists, but the narrative that this was a core philosophy of brexit is outright misinformation.

 

The data collected by the police does not support your case.

 

As for your argument that racism and xenophobia are not at the core of Brexit. We only need look to the correlation between Brexit support, racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia here on TVF.  (while keeping in mind the worst excesses of ravidm, xenophobia and Islamophobia have already been modded out).

 

Google is your friend: Search 'Brexit Campaign Racism'

 

You're in denial.

[Khun Han]

Personally, I find it quite disgusting that remainers jump all over a few racist attacks by a few unsavoury opportunist racists in the UK and try to paint a completely false picture of brexit and racism being hand-in-glove. Their aim is to lower the debate to the gutter, and make real issues of economic migration taboo, as flagged up by jayboy.