‘Do you think we’ll pay for bad things we’ve done?’ Revelations of Aussie sex tourists in Thailand

[Nearlynam]

Even the "legal" mongers pretend that the underage thing didn't go on in this industry.

[willfreeman]

Does anyone have the statistics of percentage of prostitutes that are also addicted to alcohol or drugs to numb the pain?

so nobody gets addicted to alcohol or drugs unless they are a prostitute? you are attributing the drug use by some prostitutes as 'numbing the pain', really objective arent you? maybe some hookers use drugs because they like getting high?

[jak2002003]

If all parties are legal age and consenting there is no problem. If the sex industry was legalised it would only be a positive thing, for the people in this kind of work.

I personally I don't like prostitution, and I have low opinions of the kind of people who frequent these places, but that is my personal view, for my personal lifestyle. I have no right to tell consenting adults what they can and can't do with their lives.

I don't like it even more when Christian freaks start interfering with things they have no understand about.. and they have their own twisted agenda for 'helping' their 'poor innocent delicate abused women'. Same reason they have to helping the hill tribe 'orphans' and trying to get Thais to attend the local Church and give up they religion.

I am not ashamed to say I have several good friends who work in the sex industry. I can assure you they were never being exploited, in fact they do at great job of exploiting their unsuspecting customers. And there are many well qualified sex workers too, but they choose to do their current job, rather than a lower paying or more boring or time consuming 'normal' job. Its not only women that do these jobs, there are many men, straight and gay, but these are not 'helped and rescued' by the kind Christian folk... as they are not as pretty I suspect.

This is a difficult and dangerous kind of job for anyone to do. It can be the ruin of many peoples lives. But at the end of the day we all have the right to choose to live how we want. If they would rather work in the sex industry rather than in the supermarket, office, or on the farm, than that's the choice they make, and many make a very good living from it.

We have no right to tell people what they do is wrong or force them to do other jobs.

Each to his / her own.

Each to their own eh! Unless it comes to something you disagree with then they are "freaks",,, such as, well lets say religion as a wild guess to where your hypocrisy lies. Despite most of the world having one faith or another.

So you believe because most people believe in something or are doing something then that is right? Most people on this thread agree with prostitution, so should you should stop posting that it is wrong?

You know as well as I do I am talking about consenting adults here, people who are both into what they are doing, and don't harm the other.

Religious nutters always harm people, they twist and warp vulnerable peoples minds. They force their religious morals and views on the rest of society, and help grow hatred and persecution for minority groups, and any one in society who does not believe in what they dictate. Here in Thailand they take pride in destroying ethnic groups cultures and families.

What are you talking about? Have you been persecuted by a religious group lately? Do you know of any vulnerable people who have their lives and families destroyed by a religious group?. And where exactly are religious groups destroying ethnic groups, cultures and families. south Korea is now over 30% Christian, do you see their country destroyed or has it actually thrived over theist 30 years?

This is your own misguided and misinformed prejudice based upon nothing but your hatred for something you truly do not and are probably do not have the inclination to understand.

I don't believe that most people endorse prostitution, I believe there are a disproportionate amount on this forum simply because of where we are, the home of the sex industry which inevitably attracts people who indulge.

And as you are so fond of talking about majorities 85% of the worlds population follow a religion or some sort or other, in Thailand for example over 90% are Buddhist and they also do not endorse prostitution, they see it as an "unwholesome" act.

So, I am begging you please think about what you are saying, check that you are speaking the truth and ask around before you spout your hatred, it can be more damaging to society then you know.

I have been persecuted by different religious groups in my life. As a teenager I was reduced to attempted suicide by my fanatical Christian church leaders and congregation. In several countries I visited I could have been put in prison or even executed because of my sexual orientation due to some other religions groups.

I know several people who have had their lives ruined by Christian Foundation groups here. They have actually caused many children from these families to turn to prostitution to survive! I have met hill tribe families living in filthy prison camp like conditions, in poorly built air block houses with no electricity, no running water, and huge holes in the roof and walls, with wet muddy floor.

These families are promised a better life, help with their disabilities and a future for their children. The price was to convert to Christianity, give up all their culture and beliefs, costumes and traditions. They had to leave their mountain homes and come live in the Christian village and go to the expensive built village church, while they live in poverty and dirt. One family I was close to, the father explained to me why he came. He became blind and was finding it difficult to cope in the mountains. The Christians promised him a house, electricity, water, a future for his children if they moved to this village. Once there they got nothing.

Its a similar story for the other families I talked to. I spend several nights in their houses, much to the disgust of the bus load of happy clappy American teenagers that came through the village to pray with the people and check they were behaving themselves and not going back to their old ways. Once they left to go to the hotel in the town the villagers would light the fires, cook food together, wear their traditional clothes that they kept hidden, and sing songs and drink rice wine. The teenager of these families had no ID cards, no future, no education. They ended up 'escaping' and going to get work in the city, low paid construction work or worse. Many turned to prostitution to get money, nearly all of which they send back to their families in the village so they can buy food or get medical help.

In my home area there are several Christian foundation hill tribe or ethnic minority orphanages. The children are taken away from their parents, who are promised education, health care and a chance of a better life. The parents can't visit them, many times they don't even know where their children have been taken. Once at the homes the children live in very poor conditions, while the owners of the places live in big houses and drive new cars. The children are taken to Church several times a week to brain wash them into the new religion, and warned they will go to hell if they don't believe it and give up their old religion. The young ones are told their parents died, or don't love them. In these places a huge amount of child abuse, both physical and sexual goes on, with no regulations or inspections.

Only last month one farang owner here was arrested for molesting the young boys in his care. I have a friend who is doing undercover work with the police here, investigating paedophilia, and they have liked a lot to these chrisitan foundations and childrens homes.

I have a lot of experience with the harm that people do in the name of religion. This guy in the article is clearly on some mission form his Jesus to save the women and convert them to Christianity. People like you and him, telling women what they are doing is bad and evil, telling their customers they are disgusting and immoral, when in fact you have no experience of such things, and don't spend the time to really know the people.

[Plutojames88]

To answer the threads question we need to be clear on several theories first .

The radical feminism theory ( Author of thread)

Goes along these lines

""Women would not be compelled to sell sexual or erotic services if they had the same socioeconomic opportunities as men. Moreover, the very existence of prostitution suggests that men have, a patriarchal right of access to womens bodies, thus perpetuating womens subordination to men.

When womens bodies are on sale as commodities the law of male sex-right is publicly affirmed, and men gain public acknowledgment as womens sexual masters

that is what is wrong with prostitution in their minds .

It's a male thing woman cast as victims .

The oppression model is grounded in a particular branch of feminist

Then the religious rights objections to commercial sex, which center on the threat it poses to marriage, the family, and societys moral fiber.

So , the question is posed as a moral punishment by higher powers on one side and ethical social justice on the other.

Neither give the possible agency of a victimless transaction .

Recently Amnesty International announced its world wide push to decriminalise Sex work.

So clearly some more enlightened people on this topic exist.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/26/amnesty-international-decriminalise-sex-work-prostitution-human-rights

[Nearlynam]

To answer the threads question we need to be clear on several theories first .

The radical feminism theory ( Author of thread)

Goes along these lines

""Women would not be compelled to sell sexual or erotic services if they had the same socioeconomic opportunities as men. Moreover, the very existence of prostitution suggests that men have, a patriarchal right of access to womens bodies, thus perpetuating womens subordination to men.

When womens bodies are on sale as commodities the law of male sex-right is publicly affirmed, and men gain public acknowledgment as womens sexual masters

that is what is wrong with prostitution in their minds .

It's a male thing woman cast as victims .

The oppression model is grounded in a particular branch of feminist

Then the religious rights objections to commercial sex, which center on the threat it poses to marriage, the family, and societys moral fiber.

So , the question is posed as a moral punishment by higher powers on one side and ethical social justice on the other.

Neither give the possible agency of a victimless transaction .

Recently Amnesty International announced its world wide push to decriminalise Sex work.

So clearly some more enlightened people on this topic exist.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/26/amnesty-international-decriminalise-sex-work-prostitution-human-rights

Do you live in Pattaya?

[Nearlynam]

To answer the threads question we need to be clear on several theories first .

The radical feminism theory ( Author of thread)

Goes along these lines

""Women would not be compelled to sell sexual or erotic services if they had the same socioeconomic opportunities as men. Moreover, the very existence of prostitution suggests that men have, a patriarchal right of access to womens bodies, thus perpetuating womens subordination to men.

When womens bodies are on sale as commodities the law of male sex-right is publicly affirmed, and men gain public acknowledgment as womens sexual masters

that is what is wrong with prostitution in their minds .

It's a male thing woman cast as victims .

The oppression model is grounded in a particular branch of feminist

Then the religious rights objections to commercial sex, which center on the threat it poses to marriage, the family, and societys moral fiber.

So , the question is posed as a moral punishment by higher powers on one side and ethical social justice on the other.

Neither give the possible agency of a victimless transaction .

Recently Amnesty International announced its world wide push to decriminalise Sex work.

So clearly some more enlightened people on this topic exist.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/26/amnesty-international-decriminalise-sex-work-prostitution-human-rights

Do you live in Pattaya?

[Nearlynam]

To answer the threads question we need to be clear on several theories first .

The radical feminism theory ( Author of thread)

Goes along these lines

""Women would not be compelled to sell sexual or erotic services if they had the same socioeconomic opportunities as men. Moreover, the very existence of prostitution suggests that men have, a patriarchal right of access to womens bodies, thus perpetuating womens subordination to men.

When womens bodies are on sale as commodities the law of male sex-right is publicly affirmed, and men gain public acknowledgment as womens sexual masters

that is what is wrong with prostitution in their minds .

It's a male thing woman cast as victims .

The oppression model is grounded in a particular branch of feminist

Then the religious rights objections to commercial sex, which center on the threat it poses to marriage, the family, and societys moral fiber.

So , the question is posed as a moral punishment by higher powers on one side and ethical social justice on the other.

Neither give the possible agency of a victimless transaction .

Recently Amnesty International announced its world wide push to decriminalise Sex work.

So clearly some more enlightened people on this topic exist.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/26/amnesty-international-decriminalise-sex-work-prostitution-human-rights

Do you live in Pattaya?

[Nearlynam]

To answer the threads question we need to be clear on several theories first .

The radical feminism theory ( Author of thread)

Goes along these lines

""Women would not be compelled to sell sexual or erotic services if they had the same socioeconomic opportunities as men. Moreover, the very existence of prostitution suggests that men have, a patriarchal right of access to womens bodies, thus perpetuating womens subordination to men.

When womens bodies are on sale as commodities the law of male sex-right is publicly affirmed, and men gain public acknowledgment as womens sexual masters

that is what is wrong with prostitution in their minds .

It's a male thing woman cast as victims .

The oppression model is grounded in a particular branch of feminist

Then the religious rights objections to commercial sex, which center on the threat it poses to marriage, the family, and societys moral fiber.

So , the question is posed as a moral punishment by higher powers on one side and ethical social justice on the other.

Neither give the possible agency of a victimless transaction .

Recently Amnesty International announced its world wide push to decriminalise Sex work.

So clearly some more enlightened people on this topic exist.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/26/amnesty-international-decriminalise-sex-work-prostitution-human-rights

Do you live in Pattaya?

[212Roger]

Oh, my. Oh, my. My Buddha. You guys/gals are going nowhere, slowly. This has got to be the longest, and tedious thread ever on this site. Stop, already. What's the point? Conversely, when we die, most of us "will NOT regret what we did in life, but what we did NOT do in life." Don't judge others; live your life like you deem fitting. Disregard others actions. You'll have a lot less stress and worries about nothing you can not change. Why spin your wheels/minds. Do you really believe you are so holy and/or pious to judge others? Save your own soul. That's a big enough job in it's self.

[Plutojames88]

Does anyone have the statistics of percentage of prostitutes that are also addicted to alcohol or drugs to numb the pain?

so nobody gets addicted to alcohol or drugs unless they are a prostitute? you are attributing the drug use by some prostitutes as 'numbing the pain', really objective arent you? maybe some hookers use drugs because they like getting high?

The construction of victim is reinforced with use of stats that show alcohol and drug abuse is higher in sex workers than society in general.

But you make a good point.

It's is in all walks of life.

The lower social economic back ground does make the stats look more to do with education .

Like all back grounds the better educated have lower incidence of alcohol and drug abuse.

But cooking stats is a long held tradition with fanatics.

Look at the fool repeatedly spamming here demanding I answer the question of where I live.

Completely disrespecting the forum and others by doing so.

The fanatics try making cases by association .

It's sort of pathetic.

I am not even in Thailand .

I left when the elected government was replaced and it seemed obvious changes would be very slow in democratic rule.

The thread here is reeking of biblical overtones in itself without playing the Evil City card in sensible debates .

The witch hunt mentally of seeing evil in everyone and accusing people here is a reflection of their mindset .

What sex workers do regards alcohol is within law and their business .

Some hold regular jobs .

Pay bills have kids and want to get out to the disco same as everyone else.

Go preach in a church if you need to make judgements

Edited July 10, 2016 by Plutojames88

[Jdiddy]

^ very nice, where can i find her?

[Plutojames88]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

Your didn't seem to learn much about addiction during your selfless voluntary service it seems.

If the 'old men' want 'help'. They can get it online and off. Thousands clearly don't.

Thailand institutionalised sexual slavery for centuries. At least they get paid now. And they can work at McD any time they get tired of the megabucks in sex work.

It's legal in Singapore that most pragmatic of places. Should be legal here too. Paradoxically it protects the workers. Prostitution here is a choice like any other job.

Trafficking is a different animal.

Completely correct .

Amnesty International are trying to legalise it world wide in a new push.

Of course where religion dominates and such countries like Islamic , the success rate will be smaller.

The last point you make is importnant "Prostitution is a choice " - the basic fact.

The futile attacks on it being somehow a Trafficking issue is roundly not recognised as relevant in the generalisations

Amnesty international and many groups try to protect the agency of woman's rights in this field.

The old basic tactic of attacking individuals by far right loonies is frequently seen for what it is.

Fanatical demonisation of those choices and the people simply observing the truths.

I might not like the vice industry ...or agree with its core workings.

But these woman are often found to be kind ordinary woman who don't need saving but some respect as human beings .

Their choices in developing countries are often hard ones.

Stigma is a more damaging aspect than the work itself

Where people are treated gently and kind and with some compassion , it's always possible to keep these woman smiling and their work load easier.

For me it was simply being nice and asking how they are doing ?

Maybe offer them a piece of fruit or soft drink?

I found most were reasonably cheerful even after several years working.

Several went to my gym.

Though I never paid for their time many become friends and to this day ask how I am .

Edited July 10, 2016 by Plutojames88

[Johnniey]

LOL

I'm sure you offering them a piece of mango really makes their day!

They'll think about that great act of kindness whilst trying not to vomit as they're giving head to old Helmut, Bjorn and Bruce.

Btw, I'm not at all religious and please stop using that religious BS card. NORMAL people acknowledge the pyscological torture these prostitutes go through.

Another BTW - wherever you live, do you go around taking photos of smiling prostitutes or is it only in Thailand? Do you actually think Thai ones are different?

[Plutojames88]

LOL

I'm sure you offering them a piece of mango really makes their day!

They'll think about that great act of kindness whilst trying not to vomit as they're giving head to old Helmut, Bjorn and Bruce.

Btw, I'm not at all religious and please stop using that religious BS card. NORMAL people acknowledge the pyscological torture these prostitutes go through.

Another BTW - wherever you live, do you go around taking photos of smiling prostitutes or is it only in Thailand? Do you actually think Thai ones are different?

You demean these people and cast them as victims.

No one is saying ( as earlier posts highlighted) their choices re without consequences .

But they do have control in their decisions .

And they take responsibility.

And I was asked to snap them for their social media.

It's interesting you drift towards thoughts of sex and again remind everyone they are prostitutes ( not just ordinary smiling girls)

It's that stigma of association that's wrong.

Not my friendship.

Ps my discourse never goes beyond light banter.

Maybe to them for once it's refreshing to have a light conversation without drifting into the professional life.

As for the religious card......it's clear Christian people preclude the possibility that these woman Want to be sex workers.....both the ones pictured came from regular work in the retail business .

Waitress and mall shop keeper .

They both still work and both have good bank accounts and don't drink alcohol

[Johnniey]

It's interesting you drift towards thoughts of sex and again remind everyone they are prostitutes ( not just ordinary smiling girls)

Everyone knows they are prostitutes and not ordinary smiling girls, apart from you it seems.

Denial dude is not an African river.

[Plutojames88]

Can't they be happy smiling woman too.....

Always the vicious snide nastiness?

So what?

Let them be......they are also lovely people in many cases .

Love their family ...

Christ was always frequenting with sex workers and said people shouldn't judge them.

As his mother was only 16 when he was born to "" god knows who as the father?"

The ,man was perhaps a product of the trade.

I know many people .....but don't feel ashamed of the sex workers.

I have let them stay over when something happens and they always are respectful tidy and honest.

Most sleep with teddy bears and are barely evil people.

I have tried offering a course to one to help educate her....but she said she likes what she does.

I might not agree morally , but they claim the money is better.

The ones I know have modern clothes and very nice accessories etc and claim to have 250,000 ( baht) saved .

I am disappointed they don't ever seem to want to stop but that's their choices.

The money is just too good by Thai standards.

Some make $40k USD a year .

Five times a nurses wage

That's really the problem .

They don't feel like victims .

Some can't stop laughing and certainly seem cheerful.

Work out daily

Eat well.

Hard to fault their chosen path sometimes.

We just hear all the bad stories

Edited July 10, 2016 by Plutojames88

[Winniedapu]

Well,I had another scan through the posts in this thread, my opinion of most of them is largely unchanged, which is encouraging to me, because it suggests that I read them reasonably well the first time.Some posts got a bit boring to be honest, Because it appeared to me that they were peddling the same old BS, so I skimmed over them.

I am not in the pro-prostitution camp, for number of reasons which need not concern us here. I am interested however in the various reasons why people fall on one side of the fence or another. I'm not a religious freak, and in this category I also include those people who would not consider themselves religious, but who peddle opinions which clearly have their roots in religion.

So far as I can see, the arguments in favour of the status quo are these:

1. Choice. Many people have said that these women sell themselves by choice, that they like the lifestyle. This needs to be put to bed once and for all. The psychology of women is not the same as the psychology of men in terms of their sexual choices. To suggest that a woman who is able to provide for her family, put food on the table, a roof over their heads, and a reasonable standard of living, will voluntarily choose to sell her body in preference is, in my opinion either naive beyond belief, or simply mendacious in order to preserve the self-esteem because they don't like to think of themselves as habitual users of hookers. To say for example that a woman in Isaan in Thailand (which I know a little bit about) has a choice about whether to stay at home and look after kids and husband (if she has one at home), or get a bus or taxi to Pattaya where she can deliver blow jobs to elderly rotund (and sometimes not very clean) Europeans, is just acomplete nonsense. It also needs to be understood that talking to any of these women as a client/past client/potential client, is going to deliver a response fundamentally different to the response you get when talking to them outside of those contexts. They will lie to you if they think you are or have been a potential source of income. This should not surprise anybody Thais will lie as an option of first resort, it is an essential aspect of their culture.

2. They like the lifestyle. This is just bizarre and whoever says it has little or no knowledge of psychology. To prefer a lifestyle which reaps the potential benefits of social ostracisation, HIV, alcohol or drug abuse, destruction of self-esteem, possible destruction of child bearing capacity, becoming a victim of human trafficking etc etc Is little short of lunacy, and in my view, if it happens at all, it happens in a negligible percentage of cases. Under this heading I also include the last opinion under the previous paragraph, partly because it applies, and partly in case it was not understood the first time. It also needs to be understood that talking to any of these women as a client/past client/potential client, is going to deliver a response fundamentally different to the response you get when talking to them outside of those contexts. They will lie to you if they think you are or have been a potential source of income. This should not surprise anybody Thais will lie as an option of first resort, it is an essential aspect of their culture.

it needs to be said that the majority of posters peddling these two rather unlikely reasons, appear to me to be men who have a particular interest in the subject, by which I mean they are probably habitual clients. This factor on its own is sufficient to cause a thinking man to reject both excuses, since the habitual client of prostitute is not likely to have an objective view of prostitution.

Beyond mentioning it as a possible hazard, I haven't really dealt with human trafficking. In this respect we should remember that this is Thailand. It's a Third World country with an appalling track record of victimisation and exploitation of minorities by the rich. To suggest that this is not a real and present danger is frankly, other-worldly in the extreme.

Everybody has choices, however some choices are more by choice than others, And some choices only appear to be choices but in reality are not real choices at all. in my opinion, the people peddling this reasoning really need to get a life, or at least some understanding of the life they've already got. I have little patience with people who eschew thinking responses in favour of automatic or semi-automatic responses. If that makes me a bigot, or, as somebody suggested in this thread, a 'religious nutter', then so be it. I am neither but to be honest I don't really care whether that is accepted or not.

To those who feel victimised by my thinking or comments, be assured that I had no poster particularly in mind, in fact in some cases I have found myself agreeing with other of their views. Views about sexual matters are notoriously difficult to be objective about . That said, if you cannot find yourself prepared to consider more objective views. then to paraphrase the immortal words of Derren Brown, write or print your response on a sheet of A4 paper, then fold it carefully, and pop it up your bottom. That's it for me on this thread I think, Mr Ennui just crept up behind me and whispered in my ear.

Winnie

Edited July 10, 2016 by Winniedapu

[Nearlynam]

Well,I had another scan through the posts in this thread, my opinion of most of them is largely unchanged, which is encouraging to me, because it suggests that I read them reasonably well the first time.Some posts got a bit boring to be honest, Because it appeared to me that they were peddling the same old BS, so I skimmed over them.

I am not in the pro-prostitution camp, for number of reasons which need not concern us here. I am interested however in the various reasons why people fall on one side of the fence or another. I'm not a religious freak, and in this category I also include those people who would not consider themselves religious, but who peddle opinions which clearly have their roots in religion.

So far as I can see, the arguments in favour of the status quo are these:

1. Choice. Many people have said that these women sell themselves by choice, that they like the lifestyle. This needs to be put to bed once and for all. The psychology of women is not the same as the psychology of men in terms of their sexual choices. To suggest that a woman who is able to provide for her family, put food on the table, a roof over their heads, and a reasonable standard of living, will voluntarily choose to sell her body in preference is, in my opinion either naive beyond belief, or simply mendacious in order to preserve the self-esteem because they don't like to think of themselves as habitual users of hookers. To say for example that a woman in Isaan in Thailand (which I know a little bit about) has a choice about whether to stay at home and look after kids and husband (if she has one at home), or get a bus or taxi to Pattaya where she can deliver blow jobs to elderly rotund (and sometimes not very clean) Europeans, is just acomplete nonsense. It also needs to be understood that talking to any of these women as a client/past client/potential client, is going to deliver a response fundamentally different to the response you get when talking to them outside of those contexts. They will lie to you if they think you are or have been a potential source of income. This should not surprise anybody Thais will lie as an option of first resort, it is an essential aspect of their culture.

2. They like the lifestyle. This is just bizarre and whoever says it has little or no knowledge of psychology. To prefer a lifestyle which reaps the potential benefits of social ostracisation, HIV, alcohol or drug abuse, destruction of self-esteem, possible destruction of child bearing capacity, becoming a victim of human trafficking etc etc Is little short of lunacy, and in my view, if it happens at all, it happens in a negligible percentage of cases. Under this heading I also include the last opinion under the previous paragraph, partly because it applies, and partly in case it was not understood the first time. It also needs to be understood that talking to any of these women as a client/past client/potential client, is going to deliver a response fundamentally different to the response you get when talking to them outside of those contexts. They will lie to you if they think you are or have been a potential source of income. This should not surprise anybody Thais will lie as an option of first resort, it is an essential aspect of their culture.

it needs to be said that the majority of posters peddling these two rather unlikely reasons, appear to me to be men who have a particular interest in the subject, by which I mean they are probably habitual clients. This factor on its own is sufficient to cause a thinking man to reject both excuses, since the habitual client of prostitute is not likely to have an objective view of prostitution.

Beyond mentioning it as a possible hazard, I haven't really dealt with human trafficking. In this respect we should remember that this is Thailand. It's a Third World country with an appalling track record of victimisation and exploitation of minorities by the rich. To suggest that this is not a real and present danger is frankly, other-worldly in the extreme.

Everybody has choices, however some choices are more by choice than others, And some choices only appear to be choices but in reality are not real choices at all. in my opinion, the people peddling this reasoning really need to get a life, or at least some understanding of the life they've already got. I have little patience with people who eschew thinking responses in favour of automatic or semi-automatic responses. If that makes me a bigot, or, as somebody suggested in this thread, a 'religious nutter', then so be it. I am neither but to be honest I don't really care whether that is accepted or not.

To those who feel victimised by my thinking or comments, be assured that I had no poster particularly in mind, in fact in some cases I have found myself agreeing with other of their views. Views about sexual matters are notoriously difficult to be objective about . That said, if you cannot find yourself prepared to consider more objective views. then to paraphrase the immortal words of Derren Brown, write or print your response on a sheet of A4 paper, then fold it carefully, and pop it up your bottom. That's it for me on this thread I think, Mr Ennui just crept up behind me and whispered in my ear.

Winnie

I think you have summed up this thread very eloquently. Excellent post!

No doubt some still Will call you a bible basher etc, when it is apparent you are not but just a normal man with above average intelligence.

Cheers and that's all from me on this topic.

[Plutojames88]

Well,I had another scan through the posts in this thread, my opinion of most of them is largely unchanged, which is encouraging to me, because it suggests that I read them reasonably well the first time.Some posts got a bit boring to be honest, Because it appeared to me that they were peddling the same old BS, so I skimmed over them.

I am not in the pro-prostitution camp, for number of reasons which need not concern us here. I am interested however in the various reasons why people fall on one side of the fence or another. I'm not a religious freak, and in this category I also include those people who would not consider themselves religious, but who peddle opinions which clearly have their roots in religion.

So far as I can see, the arguments in favour of the status quo are these:

1. Choice. Many people have said that these women sell themselves by choice, that they like the lifestyle. This needs to be put to bed once and for all. The psychology of women is not the same as the psychology of men in terms of their sexual choices. To suggest that a woman who is able to provide for her family, put food on the table, a roof over their heads, and a reasonable standard of living, will voluntarily choose to sell her body in preference is, in my opinion either naive beyond belief, or simply mendacious in order to preserve the self-esteem because they don't like to think of themselves as habitual users of hookers. To say for example that a woman in Isaan in Thailand (which I know a little bit about) has a choice about whether to stay at home and look after kids and husband (if she has one at home), or get a bus or taxi to Pattaya where she can deliver blow jobs to elderly rotund (and sometimes not very clean) Europeans, is just acomplete nonsense. It also needs to be understood that talking to any of these women as a client/past client/potential client, is going to deliver a response fundamentally different to the response you get when talking to them outside of those contexts. They will lie to you if they think you are or have been a potential source of income. This should not surprise anybody Thais will lie as an option of first resort, it is an essential aspect of their culture.

2. They like the lifestyle. This is just bizarre and whoever says it has little or no knowledge of psychology. To prefer a lifestyle which reaps the potential benefits of social ostracisation, HIV, alcohol or drug abuse, destruction of self-esteem, possible destruction of child bearing capacity, becoming a victim of human trafficking etc etc Is little short of lunacy, and in my view, if it happens at all, it happens in a negligible percentage of cases. Under this heading I also include the last opinion under the previous paragraph, partly because it applies, and partly in case it was not understood the first time. It also needs to be understood that talking to any of these women as a client/past client/potential client, is going to deliver a response fundamentally different to the response you get when talking to them outside of those contexts. They will lie to you if they think you are or have been a potential source of income. This should not surprise anybody Thais will lie as an option of first resort, it is an essential aspect of their culture.

it needs to be said that the majority of posters peddling these two rather unlikely reasons, appear to me to be men who have a particular interest in the subject, by which I mean they are probably habitual clients. This factor on its own is sufficient to cause a thinking man to reject both excuses, since the habitual client of prostitute is not likely to have an objective view of prostitution.

Beyond mentioning it as a possible hazard, I haven't really dealt with human trafficking. In this respect we should remember that this is Thailand. It's a Third World country with an appalling track record of victimisation and exploitation of minorities by the rich. To suggest that this is not a real and present danger is frankly, other-worldly in the extreme.

Everybody has choices, however some choices are more by choice than others, And some choices only appear to be choices but in reality are not real choices at all. in my opinion, the people peddling this reasoning really need to get a life, or at least some understanding of the life they've already got. I have little patience with people who eschew thinking responses in favour of automatic or semi-automatic responses. If that makes me a bigot, or, as somebody suggested in this thread, a 'religious nutter', then so be it. I am neither but to be honest I don't really care whether that is accepted or not.

To those who feel victimised by my thinking or comments, be assured that I had no poster particularly in mind, in fact in some cases I have found myself agreeing with other of their views. Views about sexual matters are notoriously difficult to be objective about . That said, if you cannot find yourself prepared to consider more objective views. then to paraphrase the immortal words of Derren Brown, write or print your response on a sheet of A4 paper, then fold it carefully, and pop it up your bottom. That's it for me on this thread I think, Mr Ennui just crept up behind me and whispered in my ear.

Winnie

Flawed reasoning .

When judgements are made look carefully my friend at what's being said .

Quick examples .

Your rationale two arguments .

""Sell themselves by choice""

It's silly to make the link about ""supporting woman's choices "" with using them ....

I don't pay woman for sex .....yet I support their rights .

Amnesty International ( for one example ) recognise woman choose in most cases .

It might hurt ...but some woman want to do it.

( I recognise limited choices)

What you should be saying is poor education and third world contexts lead to such choices.

But clearly you ignore some ""choose for attractive money rewards""

It's is the biggest enemy of the victim argument .

Greed.

Secondly , the premise to conclusion in your preferred lifestyle ideals rebuttal , fails to take into account their own gambling nature .

Some marry .

There are fairy tale stories .

Many want escape ....but not without the catch.( Husband )

Woman do often gamble their futures ....some win and loose.

The problem is theirs.

That's where you failed in your assessment of this judgement.

Yes you are correct that harm exists .

That sure they only have ""limited choices""

Look at my opening posts Winnie ....I am aware of the harm the suicides and abuse .

But also the victories and success.

There are no absolutes .

It varies .

In general it's a harmful industry .

Which is why I personally go go there .

But I am supportive to those I know.

On a micro level .

But you didn't address the simple situation that "" choice "" even limited choice .

Albeit the choice of 7/11 or bar staff in an Irish pub ...is still a choice .

Many do prefer the higher income to waitress.

The absolutes don't work .

On so many levels the anti sex worker rationale tries to introduce no choice

Thais themselves say in the majority of cases this isn't a significant excuse

.

Clearly ""greed "" motivates these woman , along with family considerations.

The reality is the country is poor .

And the money is the primary driving force

The narrative of woman doing sexual services for money disturbs people .

The morally just people need to have a victim

The reality might be sometimes woman completely ""understand "" ..and ""want"" to be that ""so called "" ...""bad girl""

Western hookers do the same .....sometimes n a high class level drug free with several degrees and options.

It's attractive to paint the Asian prostitute as the victim it fits a narrative of what we wish wasn't true ....that girls ( or woman ) choose the canal

Ps I enjoy your political posts ....however here my friend I think we differ

Edited July 10, 2016 by Plutojames88

[ageless1]

Yes I'm pretty much over this issue too. I commented twice on one aspect of the original post in regards to underage prostitutuion and it has largely gone uncommented on. A child cannot make informed choices yet there is a burgeoning trade in children being peddled for sex. While child prostitution is tolerated in the sex industry it will continue to grow and the children who survive it will be some of those who remain in the industry as adults. Is it their choice as adults? Or rather is it all they know and/or are qualified for? I feel really sad for the loss of human potential when I think of the young boys and girls who see their bodies as their only asset because the world they have been born into doesn't develop their intellect. The sex tourists and sexpats who buy into the industry are perpetuating it and sealing the fate of these poor children, no nice way of dressing up that fact.

[Winniedapu]

Well, even though I said I was done with this thread... "Just when I thought I was out - they drag me back in...".

You make my point for me. but it was embedded rather than stated in my post.

Low income + poor education = necessary greed = no real choices. Girls can sometimes come to enjoy (or claim to enjoy - depending upon who they are speaking to) the lifestyle but that is rarely why they embarked on the career to start with.

"Western hookers do the same .....sometimes n a high class level drug free with several degrees and options."

Nope, it's just the greed thing re-packaged in the absence of dire necessity.

"Ps I enjoy your political posts ....however here my friend I think we differ"

Ditto. Smart people can agree to differ without Mr Acrimony putting in an appearance. You still think you're right, and I still think I'm right, though I suspect we are not quite so far apart as it would appear. Language is an imperfect medium and many things fall through the gaps. In every conversation a transaction takes place, something is bought and something is sold. In this case we may well both have bought a separate third-party product. Notwithstanding, some things will have been learned and absorbed, even if we don't see them now. That's the beauty of learning. Sometimes.

Winnie

Edited July 10, 2016 by Winniedapu

[Plutojames88]

Yes I'm pretty much over this issue too. I commented twice on one aspect of the original post in regards to underage prostitutuion and it has largely gone uncommented on. A child cannot make informed choices yet there is a burgeoning trade in children being peddled for sex. While child prostitution is tolerated in the sex industry it will continue to grow and the children who survive it will be some of those who remain in the industry as adults. Is it their choice as adults? Or rather is it all they know and/or are qualified for? I feel really sad for the loss of human potential when I think of the young boys and girls who see their bodies as their only asset because the world they have been born into doesn't develop their intellect. The sex tourists and sexpats who buy into the industry are perpetuating it and sealing the fate of these poor children, no nice way of dressing up that fact.

I doubt your post is ignored just largely irrelevant to the reality of prostitution in Thailand by westerners ( the topic)

You need to discern between 99.8% of trade with what you reference.

Guilt and speculation by association with working woman ...worked maybe a few decades back.

The underage thing is a tiny fraction that no one here supports .

Even this debate ....no one is on the pro hookers side

It's about the reality that even though their choices are bad .

With most .

It's a choice

[Winniedapu]

Yes I'm pretty much over this issue too. I commented twice on one aspect of the original post in regards to underage prostitutuion and it has largely gone uncommented on. A child cannot make informed choices yet there is a burgeoning trade in children being peddled for sex. While child prostitution is tolerated in the sex industry it will continue to grow and the children who survive it will be some of those who remain in the industry as adults. Is it their choice as adults? Or rather is it all they know and/or are qualified for? I feel really sad for the loss of human potential when I think of the young boys and girls who see their bodies as their only asset because the world they have been born into doesn't develop their intellect. The sex tourists and sexpats who buy into the industry are perpetuating it and sealing the fate of these poor children, no nice way of dressing up that fact.

I didn't see your original posts, but I can comment on this one. I think you're largely right, though I'm much more concerned about the demand causing the supply; what quirks cause the demand. The criminality of the supply can be addressed if governments are honest,which in Thailand they aren't. Still. the equation has two sides and perhaps both sides need to be addressed in a complementary manner.

Winnie

Edited July 10, 2016 by Winniedapu

[MyFrenU]

It's interesting you drift towards thoughts of sex and again remind everyone they are prostitutes ( not just ordinary smiling girls)

Everyone knows they are prostitutes and not ordinary smiling girls, apart from you it seems.

Denial dude is not an African river.

So two smiling,beautiful young Thai girls MUST be prostitutes then?Surely this flies in the face of all your previous theories about them being bedraggled,miserable alcoholics and drug addicts doesn't it?

[cumgranosalum]

Several people when talking about sex workers have invoked the word"choice" - quite frankly I think their blind faith in this word as some kind of mitigation for the trade is grossly misplaced.

\They seem totally unaware of how choice is manipulated and dictated especially in consumer societies.

Free will and choice hardly exist - all their invocation tells us is how little they understand about even their own choices and what dictates them.

[GAZZPA]

dan is an obvious bible thumper, his language use makes it obvious - 'save the girls' 'his calling'

the version of the article i read had a link to the facebook page of the female author, she had liked a page called 'pornography harms', signed an online petition to stop a strip club being built accompanied by a comment explaining how terrible strip clubs are

just a couple sad, repressed puritans

i can imagine poor old dan getting back to his room furiously masturbating with tears streaming down his cheeks disgusted at his own immoral thoughts

so GAZZPA are you an atheist? tell us are you religious?

Here is how this will go,, if I say yes you will fire a barrage of abuse, if I say no you will fire a barrage of abuse and call me a liar. So, frankly it's none of your damn business.

But you answer me this, where have I ever bashed you with religious banter? When did I ever start quoting some sort of scripture of any kind at you? Quite simply I did not. If it says in the Bible, the Koran or indeed in any other religion that prostitution is wrong (as I am sure it does) then i happily agree with that. But my assessment and opinion is based upon todays real world impact, nothing more.

What you struggle to understand is that a man can ever have an opinion that prostitution is wrong and the men who use prostitutes need to re think their life choices unless they are banging the religious drum, pathetic. Prostitution is wrong, this is my opinion, no hidden agenda, no donations required, no preaching, get it?!

You have to play the BS religious card because you are trying to use the current Western populous that all Christians (or religious people) are fanatical nut jobs without any ability to make sensible judgements in the real world. It's a lame argument with zero intelligence behind it. In my opinion you are no different from all the racist idiots who say that all black people here are drug dealers or scammers.

So far I have seen nothing to convince me to change my mind, and my mind is open. All i have seen is sad people defending very poorly their reasoning for using prostitutes. I do not buy the "choice" point, I think it's crap. I don't believe any woman with a "real" choice would sell her body over a normal job where she can maintain her dignity,, and the idea that these women love the sex is complete BS. I believe they are drawn by the promise of a better life and money and then they easily get trapped in a never ending cycle of personal hatred, hatred of themselves and hatred of men.

I also don't buy the idea that they are all blissfully happy and living in a land of rainbows and butterflies as so many idiots have claimed. Most of the justification I have seen and indeed most of the "for" arguments have been based on someones opinion from "talking to bar girls"! Unbelieveable how naive some people are.

So, rather then keep playing the religious BS card why don't you stop trying to attack me over nothing and try and convince me with intelligent argument that I need to re think my opinion,, please do, I challenge you to do so if you can.

Do that and I will take you seriously, until then I view your posts as nothing but ill informed nonsense.

[GAZZPA]

A study of 200 street prostitutes documented a high prevalence of alcohol and drug abuse in their family of origin, during the drift into prostitution and as part of prostitution. Additionally, the study documented a high prevalence of substance abuse among the child molesters and rapists of the subjects. The existence of a relationship between substance abuse and prostitution in and of itself does not imply causality. It is not clear whether substance abuse is one of the factors that pushed these women into prostitution (as noted earlier, 55% of the subjects reported being addicted prior to their prostitution involvement) or whether it was prostitution that caused their drug involvement (30% became addicted following and 15% concurrently with their prostitution involvement). Most likely, both prostitution and substance abuse are the behavioral translations of these women's endless cycles of victimization and severely disturbed backgrounds, as well as an expression of the self-destructive pull, the sense of hopelessness, helplessness, negative self-concept and psychological paralysis reported by almost every subject in the study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7143150

So from almost all of the 200 subjects in the study had a sense of hopelessness, helplessness, negative self concept and psychological paralysis...

Do you think the pro prostitute camp on this forum have the fortitude to read this and think to themselves that perhaps the discussion with Bar Girls is indeed not a good way to judge their mental well being and feeling of entrapment?

Or do you think this will be ignored because it is frankly a shocking reality on the life of a prostitute?

Or claim it was written by a Christian, or Muslim, or Buddhist, or Sikh, or whatever other faith they wish to chose and therefore is an invalid report..

[Lannig]

I'm no advocate for prostitution, but I can see in what conditions they work here in Paris and I can see huge differences from what I've seen in Pattaya.

Here, I can see almost naked girls standing for hours along streets on cold winter nights , being harassed by cops, by thieves and the worst that can be found on the streets at night.

Actually, I remember a social worker speaking on TV, saying that taking drugs is their way to stand the cold.

Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Lannig

[GAZZPA]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

Your didn't seem to learn much about addiction during your selfless voluntary service it seems.

If the 'old men' want 'help'. They can get it online and off. Thousands clearly don't.

Thailand institutionalised sexual slavery for centuries. At least they get paid now. And they can work at McD any time they get tired of the megabucks in sex work.

It's legal in Singapore that most pragmatic of places. Should be legal here too. Paradoxically it protects the workers. Prostitution here is a choice like any other job.

Trafficking is a different animal.

Completely correct .

Amnesty International are trying to legalise it world wide in a new push.

Of course where religion dominates and such countries like Islamic , the success rate will be smaller.

The last point you make is importnant "Prostitution is a choice " - the basic fact.

The futile attacks on it being somehow a Trafficking issue is roundly not recognised as relevant in the generalisations

Amnesty international and many groups try to protect the agency of woman's rights in this field.

The old basic tactic of attacking individuals by far right loonies is frequently seen for what it is.

Fanatical demonisation of those choices and the people simply observing the truths.

I might not like the vice industry ...or agree with its core workings.

But these woman are often found to be kind ordinary woman who don't need saving but some respect as human beings .

Their choices in developing countries are often hard ones.

Stigma is a more damaging aspect than the work itself

Where people are treated gently and kind and with some compassion , it's always possible to keep these woman smiling and their work load easier.

For me it was simply being nice and asking how they are doing ?

Maybe offer them a piece of fruit or soft drink?

I found most were reasonably cheerful even after several years working.

Several went to my gym.

Though I never paid for their time many become friends and to this day ask how I am .

Wow, so show a picture of 2 beautiful girls, tell us you had a nice chat with them and they were lovely and all is right in the world of prostitution.

You are missing a very important point and misunderstanding many people who do not want to see prostitution. I will speak on my behalf but I am sure others will follow.

I have never looked down on and I do not attach a stigma to women who are prostitutes, you do not need to play that card. You played a cheap trick and not a clever one. Show a picture of 2 beautiful girls and effectively say "look, how nice they, looking at their smiling faces, how could you be so mean to them, how could you look down on them"?

Well, it doesn't work, it's pretty lame. I feel nothing but sympathy and I attach no blame to the women who are prostitutes, my basic humanity tells me that it is a terrible situation they are in.

Question for you,, if it really is a legitimate life choice and many women chose it over even "good jobs" (as claimed on this very forum) why don't you ask the women in "good jobs" is prostitution a viable option for them if they could earn more, or extra money. Surely if the arguments on here are true you will find some that say yes, if the assumptions on here are true that even women who are not disadvantaged make this choice it should be easy to find women who say yes to the question, right? I have never done this but I know a lot of professional women and I am certain I already know the real answer to that question.

Basically you have gone up to 2 beautiful girls in a bar in Thailand and asked to take their photos,, well duhh! How many pretty Thai women like having their photos taken? We live in a world of social media and selfies, what you have done is normal, it doesn't prove or mean anything and it doesn't strengthen your argument one bit.

They are indeed beautiful women and I hope that they are not trapped in the prostitution game, I hope that they are just out to enjoy themselves and nothing more.

[GAZZPA]

I'm no advocate for prostitution, but I can see in what conditions they work here in Paris and I can see huge differences from what I've seen in Pattaya.

Here, I can see almost naked girls standing for hours along streets on cold winter nights , being harassed by cops, by thieves and the worst that can be found on the streets at night.

Actually, I remember a social worker speaking on TV, saying that taking drugs is their way to stand the cold.

Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation.

Goodness me fella.

i have seen many examples on here from pro prostitution of different countries and their behaviour, all deemed to be valid representations of prostitutions here. And yet when one is posted on here clearly expressing the despair almost all these women feel you say it's a broad approximation.

Look, can you at least agree on this. As the study says that almost ALL of the women felt so helpless and worthless that it is at least safe to assume that many feel the same here? After all, women don't vary that much when it comes to dignity and preserving their sexuality for their loved one.

People get married all over the world, have relationships all over the world, have kids all over the world, have loving relationships all over the world and I know for sure that infidelity is not tolerated by women all over the world, so I say people are more similar then perhaps you realise when it comes to these matters.