‘Do you think we’ll pay for bad things we’ve done?’ Revelations of Aussie sex tourists in Thailand

[MyFrenU]

You are a Western woman bringing Western and/or religious values and thinking to Thailand,

I'm not a woman of any kind.

in general Asian girls do not have the same hangups and taboos about sex that Western society and Catholicism does.

And your reputable, professionally-qualified evidence for this is...? Missing...

So while thinking as a woman you understand exactly how every other women in the World feels you are just not correct I'm afraid!

And your reputable, professionally-qualified evidence for this is...? Missing.. Again.

Winnie

And you are reputable,professionally-qualified in what exactly...? Missing...

Psychology (grad) and psychotherapy (post-grad).

Not missing after all...

A student then with little real-life experience?I might have guessed come back in a decade or two greenhorn!

[MyFrenU]

Why would two beautiful young girls go to an establishment like that(look at the surrounding clientele) to enjoy themselves?

'(look at the surrounding clientele)' - not the judgmental type are you? so beautiful women wouldnt hang around young guys who wear shorts in t shirts to a casual bar in a hot country? get over yourself

They look like perfectly normal bar clientele,probably actually younger than the average in Thailand what a ridiculous statement,we're not even dealing in rationales here anymore are we?

It's just demonising anyone but yourselves,a small clique of 3 or 4 people who think they're some sort of misplaced disciples,talking rubbish about Thai girls probably due to some deep,underlying feelings of guilt from family or other organisations back home?

[MyFrenU]

Completely correct .

Amnesty International are trying to legalise it world wide in a new push.

Of course where religion dominates and such countries like Islamic , the success rate will be smaller.

The last point you make is importnant "Prostitution is a choice " - the basic fact.

The futile attacks on it being somehow a Trafficking issue is roundly not recognised as relevant in the generalisations

Amnesty international and many groups try to protect the agency of woman's rights in this field.

The old basic tactic of attacking individuals by far right loonies is frequently seen for what it is.

Fanatical demonisation of those choices and the people simply observing the truths.

I might not like the vice industry ...or agree with its core workings.

But these woman are often found to be kind ordinary woman who don't need saving but some respect as human beings .

Their choices in developing countries are often hard ones.

Stigma is a more damaging aspect than the work itself

Where people are treated gently and kind and with some compassion , it's always possible to keep these woman smiling and their work load easier.

For me it was simply being nice and asking how they are doing ?

Maybe offer them a piece of fruit or soft drink?

I found most were reasonably cheerful even after several years working.

Several went to my gym.

Though I never paid for their time many become friends and to this day ask how I am .

They are indeed beautiful women and I hope that they are not trapped in the prostitution game, I hope that they are just out to enjoy themselves and nothing more.

Why would two beautiful young girls go to an establishment like that(look at the surrounding clientele) to enjoy themselves?

'(look at the surrounding clientele)' - not the judgmental type are you? so beautiful women wouldnt hang around young guys who wear shorts in t shirts to a casual bar in a hot country? get over yourself

This is a bit picky. I'm sure you knew exactly what was meant.

Willie

So are you Willie or Winnie then?Seems like there's a whole symposium right there for psychotherapy,I think I'm getting a feeling of where you're coming from now!

[daoyai]

Very heavy and heated topic, maybe time to lighten up, reminds me of this old nugget....

Was talking to a Hi-so lady the other day ... we got to bantering about sex, I asked if she would sleep with me for a million baht, ....she thought for a moment and said yes, 555, i then said how about half a million? a little longer to contemplate but she said sure, then I asked how about 1,000B she was offended and asked what do you think I am a "gowlee"??? I said we have already established that, now we are just negotiating the price.

carry on.

"Gowlee"

I think it's the other end of the Thai hierarchical social system you've been talking to.

it is an old joke, I think I first heard it told by Christopher Hitchens , the offended lady uses the rude term "whore" I made it Thai specific by using a local rude term ok? you get it now?

[Winniedapu]

Why would two beautiful young girls go to an establishment like that(look at the surrounding clientele) to enjoy themselves?

'(look at the surrounding clientele)' - not the judgmental type are you? so beautiful women wouldnt hang around young guys who wear shorts in t shirts to a casual bar in a hot country? get over yourself

This is a bit picky. I'm sure you knew exactly what was meant.

Willie

So are you Willie or Winnie then?Seems like there's a whole symposium right there for psychotherapy,I think I'm getting a feeling of where you're coming from now!

It's Winnie. Sorry about that, a mistake from my dictation app. I didn't speak clearly enough.

Given a choice, I would not fall back on qualifications, they aren't always what they pretend to be. In this case I got a tad irritated. Must work on that.

Winnie (got it right this time).

Nothing so dangerous as a little knowledge, and nothing so irritating as someone who can't tell the difference.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Winniedapu

[metisdead]

Posts containing inappropriate language have been removed.

[GAZZPA]

Very heavy and heated topic, maybe time to lighten up, reminds me of this old nugget....

Was talking to a Hi-so lady the other day ... we got to bantering about sex, I asked if she would sleep with me for a million baht, ....she thought for a moment and said yes, 555, i then said how about half a million? a little longer to contemplate but she said sure, then I asked how about 1,000B she was offended and asked what do you think I am a "gowlee"??? I said we have already established that, now we are just negotiating the price.

carry on.

"Gowlee"

I think it's the other end of the Thai hierarchical social system you've been talking to.

it is an old joke, I think I first heard it told by Christopher Hitchens , the offended lady uses the rude term "whore" I made it Thai specific by using a local rude term ok? you get it now?

Well as articulate and clever the late Mr Hitchens was i wouldn't say his sense of humour was legendary.

[daoyai]

it is all in his delivery...dry.

[GAZZPA]

it is all in his delivery...dry.

True I suppose, very dry indeed.

[daoyai]

^^^ I like dok thong... golden flower.

[Johnniey]

Very heavy and heated topic, maybe time to lighten up, reminds me of this old nugget....

Was talking to a Hi-so lady the other day ... we got to bantering about sex, I asked if she would sleep with me for a million baht, ....she thought for a moment and said yes, 555, i then said how about half a million? a little longer to contemplate but she said sure, then I asked how about 1,000B she was offended and asked what do you think I am a "gowlee"??? I said we have already established that, now we are just negotiating the price.

carry on.

"Gowlee"

I think it's the other end of the Thai hierarchical social system you've been talking to.

it is an old joke, I think I first heard it told by Christopher Hitchens , the offended lady uses the rude term "whore" I made it Thai specific by using a local rude term ok? you get it now?

You obviously can't speak Thai. I assume you mean "garee"? This is extremely offensive and could land you in serious trouble.

Who did you hear say this?

Edited July 11, 2016 by Johnniey

[daoyai]

I know it is offensive and that is why in the jokeI substituded it for the also offensive whore, my transliteration is close to how it sounds here in the north and i learned years ago....but since I obviously (?) don't speak Thai, it is a moot point..... by the way, where did you learrn it? ...no need to answer I can imagine. looking at my post i see i typed 'o" instead of "a" so I did no mean to say Korea,, anyway this topic has grown tedious so I am done posting.

Edited July 11, 2016 by daoyai

[Plutojames88]

In summary the general consensus is exploitation of minors is reprehensible, but the failure in the article was to differentiate between the western sex tourist trade with overwhelmingly (99% ) adults and the former.

The author demonised and made no apology and subtly encourage more of the same.

Dan appears really as a pawn ( and highly suspected as a religious one) in her agenda ...which was to be printed in an Australian media outlet.

Thus the focus was on them .

After some debate "" choice "" was acknowledged something she would not herself recognise , as agency in woman creates no victims.

The level of choice we agreed was often somewhat limited but not exclusively so.

The argument that "" no woman in a reasonable job "" would wish to sell her body, with studies and personal experiences of receptionists , nurses and air hostesses being sometimes freely entering the trade.

Earnings mixed with greed was also a factor , not just poverty and poor education.

It was conceded damage occurs in the vice industry but the level to which woman suffer was dependent on circumstances and time , location.

The rescue myth of all woman selling their bodies are victims did not win the case.

Case studies of healthy and well disciplined smiling bar girls who were drug and alcohol free challenged the notion of "" heartbroken drug addicted exploited girls waiting for Dan to save them"

Dan it was agreed might have been very green and ineffective.

If not used for simply the articles purposes.

The people fiercely demonising the choice case , failed to disclose a subjective religious outlook and personal biased.

Government lobbying and programmes upcountry some writers thought might be more realistic.

But the article tried to make a link with mainstream GoGo venues and under aged sex trafficking to tourists...which was largely misleading.

No mention of Thai / Thai sex trade was uttered in her article.

The many guests who visited the thread via a link on her blog I hope got from us all a more honest realistic assessment and if anything , felt relieved that western tourists in almost every instance finds the child sex trade repugnant .

And that Thai woman though have sadly chosen the trade the boogie man making them is largely non existent .

The feminist author largely failed and was exposed as writing a fraudulent piece on expats and tourists who are not as she infers interested in children.

And the majority of Thai woman are not being herded into sex work as she claims.

Misinformation and personal attacks against the " choice "" side largely convinced most readers a religious agenda of narrow dogma was in play , and reality was inconsequence set aside.

It was also brought to light an estimated 25% of sex workers left a paid job to become a sex worker or continued to have one.

And 65% had a child .

The bottom line is while the country had low wages ( it's after all third world) and tourists are willing to pay between one and two weeks salary ( they would earn otherwise in another job) for an encounter .

Thai woman will seek to make profits.

The fact some have money sent and/ or marry was also dismissed.

But outcomes do varyingly differ for the individual in this trade.

It was mentioned $300. Million USD is sent upcountry every year by sex workers.

This makes Dans mission somewhat impossible to halt.

Though the author expresses that it's her goal.

Finally , we observe that personal dissatisfaction with woman selling their bodies should not be a metamorphosis into blaming the western tourist , as this practice can be traced in Thailand for centuries and is embedded.

And the reality is the sex worker is marginally better off if this is her choice seeking a westerner transaction than a Thai to Thai one.

Condoning sex workers rights as organisations like Amnesty International does , goes further in helping these woman over come exploitation and stigma , than a well meaning feminist and Dan.

Recognising Agency and not casting them as victims in need of rescue will only educate and help those in the industry to be more accepted.

Education and advancement is hindered when they are only seen as prostitutes and not simply as woman....

Thankfully times are changing and gradually conditions.

And media platforms like this provide real stories and a more open discourse.

To at lest clarify the truth.

[212Roger]

Wow! I am beginning to think like a Thai bar girl. "Farang's think too much; the worst part is listening to men go on and on talking."

[Blackheart1916]

In summary the general consensus is exploitation of minors is reprehensible, but the failure in the article was to differentiate between the western sex tourist trade with overwhelmingly (99% ) adults and the former.

The author demonised and made no apology and subtly encourage more of the same.

Dan appears really as a pawn ( and highly suspected as a religious one) in her agenda ...which was to be printed in an Australian media outlet.

Thus the focus was on them .

After some debate "" choice "" was acknowledged something she would not herself recognise , as agency in woman creates no victims.

The level of choice we agreed was often somewhat limited but not exclusively so.

The argument that "" no woman in a reasonable job "" would wish to sell her body, with studies and personal experiences of receptionists , nurses and air hostesses being sometimes freely entering the trade.

Earnings mixed with greed was also a factor , not just poverty and poor education.

It was conceded damage occurs in the vice industry but the level to which woman suffer was dependent on circumstances and time , location.

The rescue myth of all woman selling their bodies are victims did not win the case.

Case studies of healthy and well disciplined smiling bar girls who were drug and alcohol free challenged the notion of "" heartbroken drug addicted exploited girls waiting for Dan to save them"

Dan it was agreed might have been very green and ineffective.

If not used for simply the articles purposes.

The people fiercely demonising the choice case , failed to disclose a subjective religious outlook and personal biased.

Government lobbying and programmes upcountry some writers thought might be more realistic.

But the article tried to make a link with mainstream GoGo venues and under aged sex trafficking to tourists...which was largely misleading.

No mention of Thai / Thai sex trade was uttered in her article.

The many guests who visited the thread via a link on her blog I hope got from us all a more honest realistic assessment and if anything , felt relieved that western tourists in almost every instance finds the child sex trade repugnant .

And that Thai woman though have sadly chosen the trade the boogie man making them is largely non existent .

The feminist author largely failed and was exposed as writing a fraudulent piece on expats and tourists who are not as she infers interested in children.

And the majority of Thai woman are not being herded into sex work as she claims.

Misinformation and personal attacks against the " choice "" side largely convinced most readers a religious agenda of narrow dogma was in play , and reality was inconsequence set aside.

It was also brought to light an estimated 25% of sex workers left a paid job to become a sex worker or continued to have one.

And 65% had a child .

The bottom line is while the country had low wages ( it's after all third world) and tourists are willing to pay between one and two weeks salary ( they would earn otherwise in another job) for an encounter .

Thai woman will seek to make profits.

The fact some have money sent and/ or marry was also dismissed.

But outcomes do varyingly differ for the individual in this trade.

It was mentioned $300. Million USD is sent upcountry every year by sex workers.

This makes Dans mission somewhat impossible to halt.

Though the author expresses that it's her goal.

Finally , we observe that personal dissatisfaction with woman selling their bodies should not be a metamorphosis into blaming the western tourist , as this practice can be traced in Thailand for centuries and is embedded.

And the reality is the sex worker is marginally better off if this is her choice seeking a westerner transaction than a Thai to Thai one.

Condoning sex workers rights as organisations like Amnesty International does , goes further in helping these woman over come exploitation and stigma , than a well meaning feminist and Dan.

Recognising Agency and not casting them as victims in need of rescue will only educate and help those in the industry to be more accepted.

Education and advancement is hindered when they are only seen as prostitutes and not simply as woman....

Thankfully times are changing and gradually conditions.

And media platforms like this provide real stories and a more open discourse.

To at lest clarify the truth.

Very well said, my good man.

[thaibeachlovers]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

The only thing that surprises me about this post is that it got 12 likes.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life

This respondent obviously knows nothing about the farang scene. As for the drug and alcohol thing, some people will become addicts even if they never set foot in a farang barbeer in their lives. To blame the scene for their addiction is just a reach by someone that has a position they have to defend at all costs, regardless as to the reality.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting

[thaibeachlovers]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

who feel they have had no option in their choice of career,

Methinks you are undone by your own argument.

In 99.99% of cases, Thai sex workers ( I do not use "women" as many Thai men are also in the farang scene ) in the farang scene are free to leave at any time. They are not forced to be in it by any bar owners, and there are no pimps now. Ergo, they have choice. The vast majority only do it for a few years at most.

I knew a bar girl that gave it up to become a maid to a Thai family- she was back in short order as she had been exploited by her employer for low wages.

If the crusaders want to end the Thai sex scene, they should be out making Thai employers pay decent wages so that the workers don't need to work in a bar to make enough money. I doubt they would ever do that though, as it would cut into their lifestyle in Thailand if they had to pay real money for services such as waitresses, and they probably enjoy the life they have by exploiting poor Thai workers in low paying menial jobs.

[thaibeachlovers]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

Is that a quote? If so you have erred because I should not have to trail through pages to find the poster.

I would say "I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to the Pattaya farang scene is stupid" as there is no approximation between any western country and Pattaya. The Thai farang scene is unique in the world.

[thaibeachlovers]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs, but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya.

From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time, but if you do live here, or visit, spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS.

[Johnniey]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

The only thing that surprises me about this post is that it got 12 likes.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life

This respondent obviously knows nothing about the farang scene. As for the drug and alcohol thing, some people will become addicts even if they never set foot in a farang barbeer in their lives. To blame the scene for their addiction is just a reach by someone that has a position they have to defend at all costs, regardless as to the reality.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting

I like it and agree with what Nearynam says. Places like Pattaya are full of sex addicts in denial. Just walk into a Pattaya brothel(bar bia) and look at the desperation and emptiness in the mongers' eyes. A very sad place. I am so glad I never got addicted to sex as in this country it would probably cost me my family, my sanity and a lot of money.

Personally, a SAA meeting could help a lot of men and consequently their families.

[Winniedapu]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs, but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya.

From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time, but if you do live here, or visit, spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS.

"Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs"

Not what I said. Therefore, not m premise.

"...but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya"

I happily accept that my views differ from yours, but you, friend, expose yourself as knowing nothing about the psychology of women.I don't know if you're a regular client, but it's the sort of argument a regular client would make. It's just a fig leaf argument.

"From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time,"

Why is that then? Not that it's important either way, but I'm curious as to why you should have that impression.

"spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS."

Indeed. That much is sensible. Exploitation of the less fortunate is a specialty of Thais and the Thai culture. They're not alone in that of course, exploitation is rife everywhere, but in Thailand it is more blatant, less legislated against and there is more impunity for the guilty.

Winnie

[Johnniey]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs, but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya.

From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time, but if you do live here, or visit, spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS.

The difference is that the normal ;menial' worker has their pride and doesn't suffer from all the psychological issues prostitutes do. If you want medical proof just ask.

It seems that some people's ambition in their old age is to be an expert on young Bar prostitutes in Pattaya if that is not sad, then what is?

I've been in the bar scene(many years ago) but mostly around Pat Pong in the late 80s. So after living here 31 years, I've seen my fair share of things and believe me, I've never met a happy, psychologically-sound ex-prostitute, and I've met a hell of a lot more than you I'd wager.

You probably are in the "find them new to the game" brigade and exploit them yourself.

Actually, 30 odd years ago, I was in my 20s and made some real friends in the sex industry. I doubt a 50 year old man can make the same friendships.

[thaibeachlovers]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs, but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya.

From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time, but if you do live here, or visit, spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS.

"Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs"

Not what I said. Therefore, not m premise.

"...but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya"

I happily accept that my views differ from yours, but you, friend, expose yourself as knowing nothing about the psychology of women.I don't know if you're a regular client, but it's the sort of argument a regular client would make. It's just a fig leaf argument.

"From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time,"

Why is that then? Not that it's important either way, but I'm curious as to why you should have that impression.

"spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS."

Indeed. That much is sensible. Exploitation of the less fortunate is a specialty of Thais and the Thai culture. They're not alone in that of course, exploitation is rife everywhere, but in Thailand it is more blatant, less legislated against and there is more impunity for the guilty.

Winnie

Not what I said. Therefore, not m premise.

OH, COME ON. That is indeed what YOU said. I quote "Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here."

.I don't know if you're a regular client, but it's the sort of argument a regular client would make. It's just a fig leaf argument.

Not that it matters, but I had one bargirl "GF" for 8 years and another for 4. When I visited Thailand on holiday we would go to the beach for a couple of weeks or longer. As to whether my position is a fig leaf or not is irrelevant to me- it was what it was. They were happy, as was I. That's as good as life gets.

BTW when I did the so called right thing and married a western woman, bought a house etc etc, it was the worst years of my life. I was left traumatised and bankrupt by the b**** from hell. So, far as I'm concerned, can stick the whole "get married to a western woman" thing where the sun don't shine.

expose yourself as knowing nothing about the psychology of women

Not entirely true. After some 26 years working with thousands of women from many different countries, and of course thousands of patients, many of them female, I profess to have some modicum of psychological insight in humans of either gender.

What I do have is obviously more experience of Thai bargirls, and I can say that in most cases you are wrong in your understanding of them. Most are completely normal, well adjusted, non exploited women that happen to sleep with men for a living, for a SHORT period of their life. Perhaps you do not understand that sex to them is just sex, not some holy grail, and they do not believe that their nether regions are plated with gold, despite western men coming from far away to rent them for a while. Even more surprisingly, to you and others, might be the idea that many actually enjoy the lifestyle.

I doubt you live in LOS because you write as one that has no understanding of the farang scene, and yet profess to have such.

[cumgranosalum]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

who feel they have had no option in their choice of career,

Methinks you are undone by your own argument.

In 99.99% of cases, Thai sex workers ( I do not use "women" as many Thai men are also in the farang scene ) in the farang scene are free to leave at any time. They are not forced to be in it by any bar owners, and there are no pimps now. Ergo, they have choice. The vast majority only do it for a few years at most.

I knew a bar girl that gave it up to become a maid to a Thai family- she was back in short order as she had been exploited by her employer for low wages.

If the crusaders want to end the Thai sex scene, they should be out making Thai employers pay decent wages so that the workers don't need to work in a bar to make enough money. I doubt they would ever do that though, as it would cut into their lifestyle in Thailand if they had to pay real money for services such as waitresses, and they probably enjoy the life they have by exploiting poor Thai workers in low paying menial jobs.

" in the farang scene are free to leave at any time. They are not forced to be in it by any bar owners, and there are no pimps now. Ergo, they have choice. The vast majority only do it for a few years at most." - I see this totally false justification time and again.

"Choice" - is a completely fallacious argument - it really shows how little some people understand.

[thaibeachlovers]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs, but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya.

From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time, but if you do live here, or visit, spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS.

The difference is that the normal ;menial' worker has their pride and doesn't suffer from all the psychological issues prostitutes do. If you want medical proof just ask.

It seems that some people's ambition in their old age is to be an expert on young Bar prostitutes in Pattaya if that is not sad, then what is?

I've been in the bar scene(many years ago) but mostly around Pat Pong in the late 80s. So after living here 31 years, I've seen my fair share of things and believe me, I've never met a happy, psychologically-sound ex-prostitute, and I've met a hell of a lot more than you I'd wager.

You probably are in the "find them new to the game" brigade and exploit them yourself.

Actually, 30 odd years ago, I was in my 20s and made some real friends in the sex industry. I doubt a 50 year old man can make the same friendships.

The difference is that the normal ;menial' worker has their pride and doesn't suffer from all the psychological issues prostitutes do.

55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555

Not much pride in being a waitress or cleaner in an expensive hotel grovelling for guests that pay more for a bottle of wine than they earn in a month, and have to live in a hovel.

I've never met a happy, psychologically-sound ex-prostitute

Don't know many ex's then? If what you claim to be so were true, Thailand would be full of depressed, disturbed people, given the millions that have worked as prostitutes over your lifetime in LOS. Yet, Thai people seem to be no more maladjusted than those in any other country I've been in.

Now try telling me that "normal" workers don't suffer psychologically. If that were so, there wouldn't be much work for psycholgists.

[thaibeachlovers]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

who feel they have had no option in their choice of career,

Methinks you are undone by your own argument.

In 99.99% of cases, Thai sex workers ( I do not use "women" as many Thai men are also in the farang scene ) in the farang scene are free to leave at any time. They are not forced to be in it by any bar owners, and there are no pimps now. Ergo, they have choice. The vast majority only do it for a few years at most.

I knew a bar girl that gave it up to become a maid to a Thai family- she was back in short order as she had been exploited by her employer for low wages.

If the crusaders want to end the Thai sex scene, they should be out making Thai employers pay decent wages so that the workers don't need to work in a bar to make enough money. I doubt they would ever do that though, as it would cut into their lifestyle in Thailand if they had to pay real money for services such as waitresses, and they probably enjoy the life they have by exploiting poor Thai workers in low paying menial jobs.

" in the farang scene are free to leave at any time. They are not forced to be in it by any bar owners, and there are no pimps now. Ergo, they have choice. The vast majority only do it for a few years at most." - I see this totally false justification time and again.

"Choice" - is a completely fallacious argument - it really shows how little some people understand.

I guarantee that if you and I were to meet in Pattaya, you couldn't find a bargirl that was unable to leave the farang scene if she wanted to. Having "choice" is a fact. That many want to make more money than they can by working at some menial job does not remove their choice. It is worth remembering that out of all the women in Thailand a tiny fraction of them work as prostitutes. It is indeed a choice they make, and they choose to remain in it.

I agree that some people have little understanding of the real world.

[Winniedapu]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

The only thing that surprises me about this post is that it got 12 likes.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life

This respondent obviously knows nothing about the farang scene. As for the drug and alcohol thing, some people will become addicts even if they never set foot in a farang barbeer in their lives. To blame the scene for their addiction is just a reach by someone that has a position they have to defend at all costs, regardless as to the reality.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting

I like it and agree with what Nearynam says. Places like Pattaya are full of sex addicts in denial. Just walk into a Pattaya brothel(bar bia) and look at the desperation and emptiness in the mongers' eyes. A very sad place. I am so glad I never got addicted to sex as in this country it would probably cost me my family, my sanity and a lot of money.

Personally, a SAA meeting could help a lot of men and consequently their families.

Nail on head.

Winnie

[Winniedapu]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

who feel they have had no option in their choice of career,

Methinks you are undone by your own argument.

In 99.99% of cases, Thai sex workers ( I do not use "women" as many Thai men are also in the farang scene ) in the farang scene are free to leave at any time. They are not forced to be in it by any bar owners, and there are no pimps now. Ergo, they have choice. The vast majority only do it for a few years at most.

I knew a bar girl that gave it up to become a maid to a Thai family- she was back in short order as she had been exploited by her employer for low wages.

If the crusaders want to end the Thai sex scene, they should be out making Thai employers pay decent wages so that the workers don't need to work in a bar to make enough money. I doubt they would ever do that though, as it would cut into their lifestyle in Thailand if they had to pay real money for services such as waitresses, and they probably enjoy the life they have by exploiting poor Thai workers in low paying menial jobs.

I'm sorry, I hope you'll forgive me, but I find it really hard to discuss serious matters at this level.

In 99.99% of cases, Thai sex workers ( I do not use "women" as many Thai men are also in the farang scene ) in the farang scene are free to leave at any time.

Of course they're free to leave at any time nobody has ever said any different except for those cases involving human trafficking. The point is that if they do leave there are severe consequences so many think that even though they are in principle, able to leave of their own accord, the potential consequences make that choice impracticable. I would have thought that this was obvious, and have therefore not previously stated it, but it seems it is either not sufficiently obvious or not sufficiently clear. So on that basis please forgive me for stating the perfectly bloody obvious.

"If the crusaders want to end the Thai sex scene, they should be out making Thai employers pay decent wages so that the workers don't need to work in a bar to make enough money."

Of course you're right, but in saying this you directly counter your own argument. indeed your own argument falls apart under the weight of your own statement.

"I doubt they would ever do that though, as it would cut into their lifestyle in Thailand if they had to pay real money for services such as waitresses, and they probably enjoy the life they have by exploiting poor Thai workers in low paying menial jobs"

True including the 'kee nok' foreigners who come to a Third World country (not only Thailand), recognise the immense profits to be made by behaving like animals or exploitative criminals, and then proceed to do exactly that (I have to say that one such person in my view is not a hundred miles away from TV). It would certainly cut into their lifestyle, and in my view that would be no bad thing. Foreigners are the same as Thais, a certain percentage of them sink under their own weight to the bottom of the barrel. These immigrants do Thailand no favours at all, and in many cases if they did not engage in corrupt practices, particularly in collusion with the police, they would not find it easy to stay here. I would not shed a single tear if they were all rounded up and sent elsewhere.

It is worth noting that the reluctance of many Thais to pay a reasonable living to their workers accounts for the abysmal record of Companies when, full of conceit and arrogance, they try to export their "success" as a company to the world outside of Thailand. Many companies in Thailand, were they obliged to pay a living wage to their staff and workers, would simply not survive. Exploitation at its very finest.

Winnie

Edited July 13, 2016 by Winniedapu

[Winniedapu]

The lengths one will go to to justify his explosion of the Thai prostitute!

What a loss of baloney!

The funniest bit is when you say a picture of two smiling Thai whores is proof that they don't suffer. You probably think their smiles are real.

Get on with your sad sexpat life and accept yourself for what you are.

You don't have to be a sexpat to understand that you are NEVER going to stop the World's oldest profession,you could even argue that it stops more women being raped or molested by frustrated men whether right or wrong?

Either way it is naive and makes you a modern day King Canute,trying to force the sea to go back.It is done for the satisfaction of the disciple/white knight on his charger and is therefore very disingenuous,these people are not trying to save the girls they are trying to save themselves!

I wouldn't argue it should be "stopped" or can be, in most case I don't see criminalising helps as it is a trade that consists mainly of victims - what I think is that people should be made aware of how negative the industry is........and the men involved should realise what a sad state they have lowered themselves to.

"you could even argue that it stops more women being raped or molested by frustrated men whether right or wrong?" - as for that comment - it is utterly contemptible and illustrates how ignorant some people are.

You are suggesting it's a good idea for women to charge for sex with rapists?

You are suggesting it's a good idea for women to charge for sex with rapists?

You seem to have a problem with comprehension. He said it would STOP men becoming rapists, not that they were rapists.

I have a problem with people that for whatever reason assume they can tell other people what to do, as if they were some saintly person never did wrong. Having sex with Thai women is not illegal, and in most cases both sides get what they want. In the vast majority of cases where wrong is done, it is by the Thai prostitute against their temporary ( or long term ) farang friend.

It also seems to me that such people feel the need to castigate western men in Thailand rather than dealing with the "problem" in their own countries. Perhaps it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling of being a shining knight on a white charger riding to the rescue of the poor Thai damsel in distress, while in their own country sex abuse goes on unabated.

I also find it reprehensible that these heroes in their own minds attack the farang scene, but complely ignore the real problems in the THAI scene, where very bad things happen. Gutless and wonders spring to my mind when I think about such people.

BTW, how do anti prostitution fanatics deal with the fact that it's actually legal in most of their own countries, LOL, and if it were to become legal in LOS would they all shut up?

I am cheered by the thought that for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth on TV over the years, it will not make one iota of difference to the farang scene, which will carry on regardless.

I'll leave you all with a thought. Why do western men spend vast amounts of money to visit Thailand for the pleasures therein when their own countries have lots of single women. Could it be that many western men have no more interest in being exploited by western women just to get laid once in a while?

With the greatest of respect, this argument seems to depend on the premise that morality equals legality. It doesn't, But it is distracted out regularly by people who behave in ways which embarrass themselves but do not like to admit it. It has the same bogus quality as the argument that says that nobody forces a prostitute to be a prostitute, that they can leave anytime they like and therefore it's all okay for a foreigner to travel to Thailand, largely to satisfy his own sexual needs.

It's a fig-leaf argument, designed only to put a veneer upon what is clearly the unacceptable exploitation of women in Thailand by people who find it difficult to manage their own sexual urges, but who wish to protest that there's nothing wrong with that. This argument reduces human beings to the level of animals in the street, and I personally find it offensive and demeaning to the many people who are not of this ilk.

I said before that I had made my final comment in this thread. Frankly I should have abided by that, because right now I feel drenched in the psychology of Pattaya sexpats, and to be perfectly honest, I feel like I need a shower. I am reminded of a saying which advises "never wrestle with pigs because you'll get dirty, and it only annoys the pig".

Over and out.

Winnie

Edited July 13, 2016 by Winniedapu

[Winniedapu]

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs, but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya.

From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time, but if you do live here, or visit, spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS.

The difference is that the normal ;menial' worker has their pride and doesn't suffer from all the psychological issues prostitutes do. If you want medical proof just ask.

It seems that some people's ambition in their old age is to be an expert on young Bar prostitutes in Pattaya if that is not sad, then what is?

I've been in the bar scene(many years ago) but mostly around Pat Pong in the late 80s. So after living here 31 years, I've seen my fair share of things and believe me, I've never met a happy, psychologically-sound ex-prostitute, and I've met a hell of a lot more than you I'd wager.

You probably are in the "find them new to the game" brigade and exploit them yourself.

Actually, 30 odd years ago, I was in my 20s and made some real friends in the sex industry. I doubt a 50 year old man can make the same friendships.

The difference is that the normal ;menial' worker has their pride and doesn't suffer from all the psychological issues prostitutes do.

55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555

Not much pride in being a waitress or cleaner in an expensive hotel grovelling for guests that pay more for a bottle of wine than they earn in a month, and have to live in a hovel.

I've never met a happy, psychologically-sound ex-prostitute

Don't know many ex's then? If what you claim to be so were true, Thailand would be full of depressed, disturbed people, given the millions that have worked as prostitutes over your lifetime in LOS. Yet, Thai people seem to be no more maladjusted than those in any other country I've been in.

Now try telling me that "normal" workers don't suffer psychologically. If that were so, there wouldn't be much work for psycholgists.

Boring. The words are empty and meaningless - by design. Fig-leaf statements only.

Winnie

Edited July 13, 2016 by Winniedapu