‘Do you think we’ll pay for bad things we’ve done?’ Revelations of Aussie sex tourists in Thailand

[Winniedapu]

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs, but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya.

From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time, but if you do live here, or visit, spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS.

The difference is that the normal ;menial' worker has their pride and doesn't suffer from all the psychological issues prostitutes do. If you want medical proof just ask.

It seems that some people's ambition in their old age is to be an expert on young Bar prostitutes in Pattaya if that is not sad, then what is?

I've been in the bar scene(many years ago) but mostly around Pat Pong in the late 80s. So after living here 31 years, I've seen my fair share of things and believe me, I've never met a happy, psychologically-sound ex-prostitute, and I've met a hell of a lot more than you I'd wager.

You probably are in the "find them new to the game" brigade and exploit them yourself.

Actually, 30 odd years ago, I was in my 20s and made some real friends in the sex industry. I doubt a 50 year old man can make the same friendships.

The difference is that the normal ;menial' worker has their pride and doesn't suffer from all the psychological issues prostitutes do.

55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555

Not much pride in being a waitress or cleaner in an expensive hotel grovelling for guests that pay more for a bottle of wine than they earn in a month, and have to live in a hovel.

I've never met a happy, psychologically-sound ex-prostitute

Don't know many ex's then? If what you claim to be so were true, Thailand would be full of depressed, disturbed people, given the millions that have worked as prostitutes over your lifetime in LOS. Yet, Thai people seem to be no more maladjusted than those in any other country I've been in.

Now try telling me that "normal" workers don't suffer psychologically. If that were so, there wouldn't be much work for psycholgists.

Boring. The words are empty and meaningless - by design. Fig-leaf statements only.

Winnie

Edited July 13, 2016 by Winniedapu

[thaibeachlovers]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

who feel they have had no option in their choice of career,

Methinks you are undone by your own argument.

In 99.99% of cases, Thai sex workers ( I do not use "women" as many Thai men are also in the farang scene ) in the farang scene are free to leave at any time. They are not forced to be in it by any bar owners, and there are no pimps now. Ergo, they have choice. The vast majority only do it for a few years at most.

I knew a bar girl that gave it up to become a maid to a Thai family- she was back in short order as she had been exploited by her employer for low wages.

If the crusaders want to end the Thai sex scene, they should be out making Thai employers pay decent wages so that the workers don't need to work in a bar to make enough money. I doubt they would ever do that though, as it would cut into their lifestyle in Thailand if they had to pay real money for services such as waitresses, and they probably enjoy the life they have by exploiting poor Thai workers in low paying menial jobs.

I'm sorry, I hope you'll forgive me, but I find it really hard to discuss serious matters at this level.

In 99.99% of cases, Thai sex workers ( I do not use "women" as many Thai men are also in the farang scene ) in the farang scene are free to leave at any time.

Of course they're free to leave at any time nobody has ever said any different except for those cases involving human trafficking. The point is that if they do leave there are severe consequences so many think that even though they are in principle, able to leave of their own accord, the potential consequences make that choice impracticable. I would have thought that this was obvious, and have therefore not previously stated it, but it seems it is either not sufficiently obvious or not sufficiently clear. So on that basis please forgive me for stating the perfectly bloody obvious.

"If the crusaders want to end the Thai sex scene, they should be out making Thai employers pay decent wages so that the workers don't need to work in a bar to make enough money."

Of course you're right, but in saying this you directly counter your own argument. indeed your own argument falls apart under the weight of your own statement.

"I doubt they would ever do that though, as it would cut into their lifestyle in Thailand if they had to pay real money for services such as waitresses, and they probably enjoy the life they have by exploiting poor Thai workers in low paying menial jobs"

True including the 'kee nok' foreigners who come to a Third World country (not only Thailand), recognise the immense profits to be made by behaving like animals or exploitative criminals, and then proceed to do exactly that (I have to say that one such person in my view is not a hundred miles away from TV). It would certainly cut into their lifestyle, and in my view that would be no bad thing. Foreigners are the same as Thais, a certain percentage of them sink under their own weight to the bottom of the barrel. These immigrants do Thailand no favours at all, and in many cases if they did not engage in corrupt practices, particularly in collusion with the police, they would not find it easy to stay here. I would not shed a single tear if they were all rounded up and sent elsewhere.

It is worth noting that the reluctance of many Thais to pay a reasonable living to their workers accounts for the abysmal record of Companies when, full of conceit and arrogance, they try to export their "success" as a company to the world outside of Thailand. Many companies in Thailand, were they obliged to pay a living wage to their staff and workers, would simply not survive. Exploitation at its very finest.

Winnie

I hope you'll forgive me, but I find it really hard to discuss serious matters at this level.

Oh dear, thinking that you are too superior to engage with someone that disagrees with you, perhaps?

The point is that if they do leave there are severe consequences so many think that even though they are in principle, able to leave of their own accord, the potential consequences make that choice impracticable.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Did you come up with that all by yourself? Unfortunately you just proved that you know and understand nothing about the farang scene with utter garbage like that. There are no severe consequences if a bargirl decides to change bars or leave altogether, and it happens all the time.

Of course you're right, but in saying this you directly counter your own argument. indeed your own argument falls apart under the weight of your own statement.

I have no idea of what you are talking about.

As this is becoming a bickerfest, it is no doubt going to lead to deletions, so I reluctantly will have to cease this conversation. However, I suggest you actually go talk to a few real live Pattaya bargirls.

[Winniedapu]

"Now, I'm not saying that life is all rosy for bar girls in Pattaya, but I feel that applying the results of a study made in the western world to Pattaya is a very broad approximation."

The principle damage to prostitutes who feel they have had no option in their choice of career, is psychological.

Emotional and psychological states in people are largely the same everywhere. Some states are subject to modification by cultural differences, but many are not. States relating to sex are generally not modified by culture; casual and paid sex (not necessarily the same things) are among these. They are however, both subject to modification by the presence of or past resolved psychological trauma.

Comparison studies relating to prostitution are likely to be directly comparable.

Winnie

who feel they have had no option in their choice of career,

Methinks you are undone by your own argument.

In 99.99% of cases, Thai sex workers ( I do not use "women" as many Thai men are also in the farang scene ) in the farang scene are free to leave at any time. They are not forced to be in it by any bar owners, and there are no pimps now. Ergo, they have choice. The vast majority only do it for a few years at most.

I knew a bar girl that gave it up to become a maid to a Thai family- she was back in short order as she had been exploited by her employer for low wages.

If the crusaders want to end the Thai sex scene, they should be out making Thai employers pay decent wages so that the workers don't need to work in a bar to make enough money. I doubt they would ever do that though, as it would cut into their lifestyle in Thailand if they had to pay real money for services such as waitresses, and they probably enjoy the life they have by exploiting poor Thai workers in low paying menial jobs.

" in the farang scene are free to leave at any time. They are not forced to be in it by any bar owners, and there are no pimps now. Ergo, they have choice. The vast majority only do it for a few years at most." - I see this totally false justification time and again.

"Choice" - is a completely fallacious argument - it really shows how little some people understand.

This is just facile. It's reminiscent of a bank heist, where the robbers inform the manager that they would like him to open the vault, that they have his wife and children as hostages, and will kill them if he does not open the vault.

Then comes along a particularly vicious criminal and notes that, of course, "the bank manager is perfectly free to make whatever choice suits him".

Same deceitful argument precisely, with precisely the same amount of merit.

Winnie

[thaibeachlovers]

The difference is that the normal ;menial' worker has their pride and doesn't suffer from all the psychological issues prostitutes do.

55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555

Not much pride in being a waitress or cleaner in an expensive hotel grovelling for guests that pay more for a bottle of wine than they earn in a month, and have to live in a hovel.

I've never met a happy, psychologically-sound ex-prostitute

Don't know many ex's then? If what you claim to be so were true, Thailand would be full of depressed, disturbed people, given the millions that have worked as prostitutes over your lifetime in LOS. Yet, Thai people seem to be no more maladjusted than those in any other country I've been in.

Now try telling me that "normal" workers don't suffer psychologically. If that were so, there wouldn't be much work for psycholgists.

Boring. The words are empty and meaningless - by design. Fig-leaf statements only.

winning

I said before that I had made my final comment in this thread. Frankly I should have abided by that,

Yes, you really should have 555555555555555555555555555555555

[Winniedapu]

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs, but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya.

From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time, but if you do live here, or visit, spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS.

"Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs"

Not what I said. Therefore, not m premise.

"...but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya"

I happily accept that my views differ from yours, but you, friend, expose yourself as knowing nothing about the psychology of women.I don't know if you're a regular client, but it's the sort of argument a regular client would make. It's just a fig leaf argument.

"From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time,"

Why is that then? Not that it's important either way, but I'm curious as to why you should have that impression.

"spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS."

Indeed. That much is sensible. Exploitation of the less fortunate is a specialty of Thais and the Thai culture. They're not alone in that of course, exploitation is rife everywhere, but in Thailand it is more blatant, less legislated against and there is more impunity for the guilty.

Winnie

Not what I said. Therefore, not m premise.

OH, COME ON. That is indeed what YOU said. I quote "Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here."

.I don't know if you're a regular client, but it's the sort of argument a regular client would make. It's just a fig leaf argument.

Not that it matters, but I had one bargirl "GF" for 8 years and another for 4. When I visited Thailand on holiday we would go to the beach for a couple of weeks or longer. As to whether my position is a fig leaf or not is irrelevant to me- it was what it was. They were happy, as was I. That's as good as life gets.

BTW when I did the so called right thing and married a western woman, bought a house etc etc, it was the worst years of my life. I was left traumatised and bankrupt by the b**** from hell. So, far as I'm concerned, can stick the whole "get married to a western woman" thing where the sun don't shine.

expose yourself as knowing nothing about the psychology of women

Not entirely true. After some 26 years working with thousands of women from many different countries, and of course thousands of patients, many of them female, I profess to have some modicum of psychological insight in humans of either gender.

What I do have is obviously more experience of Thai bargirls, and I can say that in most cases you are wrong in your understanding of them. Most are completely normal, well adjusted, non exploited women that happen to sleep with men for a living, for a SHORT period of their life. Perhaps you do not understand that sex to them is just sex, not some holy grail, and they do not believe that their nether regions are plated with gold, despite western men coming from far away to rent them for a while. Even more surprisingly, to you and others, might be the idea that many actually enjoy the lifestyle.

I doubt you live in LOS because you write as one that has no understanding of the farang scene, and yet profess to have such.

Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here" is somehow equivalent to "Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs"??

OK, whatever you say, I just can't discuss important topics at this level of rationality.

"So, far as I'm concerned, can stick the whole "get married to a western woman" thing where the sun don't shine."

Well, it's certainly a colourful argument. Sadly I never said that so it's also an irrational argument.

Not entirely true. After some 26 years working with thousands of women from many different countries, and of course thousands of patients, many of them female, I profess to have some modicum of psychological insight in humans of either gender.

What I do have is obviously more experience of Thai bargirls, and I can say that in most cases you are wrong in your understanding of them. Most are completely normal, well adjusted, non exploited women that happen to sleep with men for a living, for a SHORT period of their life. Perhaps you do not understand that sex to them is just sex, not some holy grail, and they do not believe that their nether regions are plated with gold, despite western men coming from far away to rent them for a while. Even more surprisingly, to you and others, might be the idea that many actually enjoy the lifestyle.

I accept without question or argument, that you have more experience of Thai bar-girls than I do. I'm content to let it rest at that, though I find it hard to understand why your defensiveness should be so extreme as to make you descend into personal comments.

In any discussion, something is bought and something is sold. In any audience, perhaps 10% are prepared to be persuaded using rational and logical argument. Perhaps the remaining 90% are not, and this is usually due to prejudice and defensiveness. Accordingly, I see no future in this discussion. I am what I am, and am content with being so. you are what you are, And you are doubtless similarly content.

I draw considerable consolation in regard to this discussion, by remembering an occasion when I tried to discuss quantum physics with my dog. All he did was bark at me, so I didn't do it again.

Winnie

Edited July 13, 2016 by Winniedapu

[sujoop]

As one who disagrees with much of Winnie's Thailand political views, can now express whole-hearted agreement with every word Winnie has posted in this thread. Would go further to state thank you Winnie.

To those seeking to justify their actions stemming from their inadequacies, just shame, pure shame and you know it.

[Winniedapu]

As one who disagrees with much of Winnie's Thailand political views, can now express whole-hearted agreement with every word Winnie has posted in this thread. Would go further to state thank you Winnie.

To those seeking to justify their actions stemming from their inadequacies, just shame, pure shame and you know it.

Thanks for the kind comment.

"To those seeking to justify their actions stemming from their inadequacies, just shame, pure shame and you know it."

Of course they know it, that's why they protest so much. Everyone's entitled to attempt to protect their own self-esteem, this is how they do it. But an addiction is an addiction, and some addictions are harder than others to kick, just ask Michael Douglas.

Winnie

Edited July 13, 2016 by Winniedapu

[thaibeachlovers]

As one who disagrees with much of Winnie's Thailand political views, can now express whole-hearted agreement with every word Winnie has posted in this thread. Would go further to state thank you Winnie.

To those seeking to justify their actions stemming from their inadequacies, just shame, pure shame and you know it.

I and all the millions and millions and millions of western men that have stayed with a Thai bargirl since the 1970s are soooooooo ashamed of ourselves, and absolutely recognise the utter superiority of you and your fellow travellers that are shining beacons of morality in a decadent world.

[Winniedapu]

As one who disagrees with much of Winnie's Thailand political views, can now express whole-hearted agreement with every word Winnie has posted in this thread. Would go further to state thank you Winnie.

To those seeking to justify their actions stemming from their inadequacies, just shame, pure shame and you know it.

I and all the millions and millions and millions of western men that have stayed with a Thai bargirl since the 1970s are soooooooo ashamed of ourselves, and absolutely recognise the utter superiority of you and your fellow travellers that are shining beacons of morality in a decadent world.

Ah, that will be an attempt to transform itself-loathing into a criticism of the other person, by means of sarcasm and an appeal to numbers.

Good luck with that

Perhaps 90+% of the motivations of 90+% of the world people revolve around their sex drive. Personally I have no problem with it And I make no attempt to say that one is better than the other, but it's a delusion for the 90+% to assume that everybody else is the same as them. The metaphor I offered, the one about my dog, applies far more often than you might like to think.

Winnie

Edited July 13, 2016 by Winniedapu

[thaibeachlovers]

As one who disagrees with much of Winnie's Thailand political views, can now express whole-hearted agreement with every word Winnie has posted in this thread. Would go further to state thank you Winnie.

To those seeking to justify their actions stemming from their inadequacies, just shame, pure shame and you know it.

I and all the millions and millions and millions of western men that have stayed with a Thai bargirl since the 1970s are soooooooo ashamed of ourselves, and absolutely recognise the utter superiority of you and your fellow travellers that are shining beacons of morality in a decadent world.

Ah, that will be an attempt to transform itself-loathing into a criticism of the other person, by means of sarcasm and an appeal to numbers.

Good luck with that

Perhaps 90+% of the motivations of 90+% of the world people revolve around their sex drive. Personally I have no problem with it And I make no attempt to say that one is better than the other, but it's a delusion for the 90+% to assume that everybody else is the same as them. The metaphor I offered, the one about my dog, applies far more often than you might like to think.

Winnie

Digging and holes comes to mind.

You really should take your own advice.

Now I really am going to stop responding to stirrers.

[MyFrenU]

In summary the general consensus is exploitation of minors is reprehensible, but the failure in the article was to differentiate between the western sex tourist trade with overwhelmingly (99% ) adults and the former.

The author demonised and made no apology and subtly encourage more of the same.

Dan appears really as a pawn ( and highly suspected as a religious one) in her agenda ...which was to be printed in an Australian media outlet.

Thus the focus was on them .

After some debate "" choice "" was acknowledged something she would not herself recognise , as agency in woman creates no victims.

The level of choice we agreed was often somewhat limited but not exclusively so.

The argument that "" no woman in a reasonable job "" would wish to sell her body, with studies and personal experiences of receptionists , nurses and air hostesses being sometimes freely entering the trade.

Earnings mixed with greed was also a factor , not just poverty and poor education.

It was conceded damage occurs in the vice industry but the level to which woman suffer was dependent on circumstances and time , location.

The rescue myth of all woman selling their bodies are victims did not win the case.

Case studies of healthy and well disciplined smiling bar girls who were drug and alcohol free challenged the notion of "" heartbroken drug addicted exploited girls waiting for Dan to save them"

Dan it was agreed might have been very green and ineffective.

If not used for simply the articles purposes.

The people fiercely demonising the choice case , failed to disclose a subjective religious outlook and personal biased.

Government lobbying and programmes upcountry some writers thought might be more realistic.

But the article tried to make a link with mainstream GoGo venues and under aged sex trafficking to tourists...which was largely misleading.

No mention of Thai / Thai sex trade was uttered in her article.

The many guests who visited the thread via a link on her blog I hope got from us all a more honest realistic assessment and if anything , felt relieved that western tourists in almost every instance finds the child sex trade repugnant .

And that Thai woman though have sadly chosen the trade the boogie man making them is largely non existent .

The feminist author largely failed and was exposed as writing a fraudulent piece on expats and tourists who are not as she infers interested in children.

And the majority of Thai woman are not being herded into sex work as she claims.

Misinformation and personal attacks against the " choice "" side largely convinced most readers a religious agenda of narrow dogma was in play , and reality was inconsequence set aside.

It was also brought to light an estimated 25% of sex workers left a paid job to become a sex worker or continued to have one.

And 65% had a child .

The bottom line is while the country had low wages ( it's after all third world) and tourists are willing to pay between one and two weeks salary ( they would earn otherwise in another job) for an encounter .

Thai woman will seek to make profits.

The fact some have money sent and/ or marry was also dismissed.

But outcomes do varyingly differ for the individual in this trade.

It was mentioned $300. Million USD is sent upcountry every year by sex workers.

This makes Dans mission somewhat impossible to halt.

Though the author expresses that it's her goal.

Finally , we observe that personal dissatisfaction with woman selling their bodies should not be a metamorphosis into blaming the western tourist , as this practice can be traced in Thailand for centuries and is embedded.

And the reality is the sex worker is marginally better off if this is her choice seeking a westerner transaction than a Thai to Thai one.

Condoning sex workers rights as organisations like Amnesty International does , goes further in helping these woman over come exploitation and stigma , than a well meaning feminist and Dan.

Recognising Agency and not casting them as victims in need of rescue will only educate and help those in the industry to be more accepted.

Education and advancement is hindered when they are only seen as prostitutes and not simply as woman....

Thankfully times are changing and gradually conditions.

And media platforms like this provide real stories and a more open discourse.

To at lest clarify the truth.

The lengths one will go to to justify his explosion of the Thai prostitute!

What a loss of baloney!

The funniest bit is when you say a picture of two smiling Thai whores is proof that they don't suffer. You probably think their smiles are real.

Get on with your sad sexpat life and accept yourself for what you are.

You don't have to be a sexpat to understand that you are NEVER going to stop the World's oldest profession,you could even argue that it stops more women being raped or molested by frustrated men whether right or wrong?

Either way it is naive and makes you a modern day King Canute,trying to force the sea to go back.It is done for the satisfaction of the disciple/white knight on his charger and is therefore very disingenuous,these people are not trying to save the girls they are trying to save themselves!

I wouldn't argue it should be "stopped" or can be, in most case I don't see criminalising helps as it is a trade that consists mainly of victims - what I think is that people should be made aware of how negative the industry is........and the men involved should realise what a sad state they have lowered themselves to.

"you could even argue that it stops more women being raped or molested by frustrated men whether right or wrong?" - as for that comment - it is utterly contemptible and illustrates how ignorant some people are.

You are suggesting it's a good idea for women to charge for sex with rapists?

You people don't even listen or comprehend what is being written here do you?You remind me of politicians just trotting out the same tired old guff,no mater if you look around the room and everyone's fallen asleep at your droning,tired diatribe.Your Oxygen seems to be being outraged at everyone and everything around you,I'm so glad I'm unencumbered by such a jaded view of the World around me,such negativity must be difficult to live with especially in a country as beautiful as Thailand!

[MyFrenU]

These sex addicts are, like all addicts, totally selfish and most are in denial.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life. I've seen first hand the problems these girls get into with drugs and alcohol as I worked voluntarily in a drug rehab centre.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting in Pattaya to try to help these old men.

The only thing that surprises me about this post is that it got 12 likes.

They don't care about ruining the young woman's life

This respondent obviously knows nothing about the farang scene. As for the drug and alcohol thing, some people will become addicts even if they never set foot in a farang barbeer in their lives. To blame the scene for their addiction is just a reach by someone that has a position they have to defend at all costs, regardless as to the reality.

The best thing would be to start an SAA or sex anonymous meeting

I like it and agree with what Nearynam says. Places like Pattaya are full of sex addicts in denial. Just walk into a Pattaya brothel(bar bia) and look at the desperation and emptiness in the mongers' eyes. A very sad place. I am so glad I never got addicted to sex as in this country it would probably cost me my family, my sanity and a lot of money.

Personally, a SAA meeting could help a lot of men and consequently their families.

You sound like you've done exactly that many times,just there for research purposes were you?Something smells fishy here and it's not Nam Plaa!

[MyFrenU]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs, but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya.

From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time, but if you do live here, or visit, spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS.

The difference is that the normal ;menial' worker has their pride and doesn't suffer from all the psychological issues prostitutes do. If you want medical proof just ask.

It seems that some people's ambition in their old age is to be an expert on young Bar prostitutes in Pattaya if that is not sad, then what is?

I've been in the bar scene(many years ago) but mostly around Pat Pong in the late 80s. So after living here 31 years, I've seen my fair share of things and believe me, I've never met a happy, psychologically-sound ex-prostitute, and I've met a hell of a lot more than you I'd wager.

You probably are in the "find them new to the game" brigade and exploit them yourself.

Actually, 30 odd years ago, I was in my 20s and made some real friends in the sex industry. I doubt a 50 year old man can make the same friendships.

Again,why is that so that we can understand exactly where your point of view is coming from?

[MyFrenU]

Believe it or not, I don't do prostitutes so I'm not "pro" anything.

I can't judge their level of despair in Thailand compared to anywhere in the world, and probably neither can you.

My point is just that if I somehow went to sell myself, I would certainly rather do it sitting in a bar in Pattaya and going to an hotel than standing alone on a street, almost naked, on a cold winter night in Paris with all the dangers lurking around, then performing acts in the back of a car, in a public toilet or in the bushes of the Bois de Boulogne.

Saying that they do it in 100% comparable conditions is just not true and this must have consequences on their state of mind.

That's it. Nothing else.

Irrelevant. Saying that life is worse elsewhere has never been an excuse for life being bad here.

Winnie

Your premise that life in Thailand is "bad" is probably correct for many ( ? most ) low paid workers in menial jobs, but if you think being a bargirl in a Pattaya barbeer is "bad", you expose yourself as knowing nothing about Thais, and especially knowing nothing about bargirls in Pattaya.

From your posts I have doubts that you live in Thailand, or have even been here for any length of time, but if you do live here, or visit, spare a thought for the exploited waitress that served you in some fancy restaurant, or all the other exploited Thais that do menial, but essential, work in LOS.

The difference is that the normal ;menial' worker has their pride and doesn't suffer from all the psychological issues prostitutes do. If you want medical proof just ask.

It seems that some people's ambition in their old age is to be an expert on young Bar prostitutes in Pattaya if that is not sad, then what is?

I've been in the bar scene(many years ago) but mostly around Pat Pong in the late 80s. So after living here 31 years, I've seen my fair share of things and believe me, I've never met a happy, psychologically-sound ex-prostitute, and I've met a hell of a lot more than you I'd wager.

You probably are in the "find them new to the game" brigade and exploit them yourself.

Actually, 30 odd years ago, I was in my 20s and made some real friends in the sex industry. I doubt a 50 year old man can make the same friendships.

So there's a cut off age now at which you can make friends in the bar industry?It sounds like your upset that you have surpassed that age now and are viewed as a punter instead,of course this is solely down to attitude the age factor is only a factor in your warped mind!

How about just don't be a creepy old man and you'll make friends with any girl from anywhere,seriously do you honestly believe any of the nonsense you spout I've never heard anything like it,you really do have issues don't you?

Edited July 13, 2016 by MyFrenU

[MyFrenU]

It's hilarious to read through this thread and you begin to understand the dynamics of what's happening here.Unsurprisingly all the people so dead set against prostitution and the exploitation (when has ANYONE,EVER seen a Thai bargirl get exploited by a doddering old sexpat? ) of Thai girls are all young students from the West.
These people have their minds in the West but their bodies in South-East Asia,in essence these people are suffering from culture shock.It's a stone-cold fact that none of them speak,read or write a word of Thai so being the know-it-alls they are the only thing that can justify their mystification as to what is occurring around them so to go for the soft targets,not unlike the Thai authorities.
Of course the soft target in Thailand is ALWAYS going to be the old dude,just split up with the biyatch from Hell back in the West after 30 years or more,she's made sure he's lost everything in her bitterness his house,job,family etc. and utterly demonised him for ever in his local area.
He is just out in Thailand to regain a scrap of dignity,misplaced of course,by proving to himself that he is still useful and attractive to the opposite sex.
Step forward Noi,Lek,Fon,Nok etc. with a soft,sweet-smelling,dark-skinned shoulder to cry on for these broken men,so who really is the victim here and who's exploiting who?
Unfortunately for the philosophy and psychotherapy students out there,life is never as simple as black and whites,night and day!

[MyFrenU]

As one who disagrees with much of Winnie's Thailand political views, can now express whole-hearted agreement with every word Winnie has posted in this thread. Would go further to state thank you Winnie.

To those seeking to justify their actions stemming from their inadequacies, just shame, pure shame and you know it.

I and all the millions and millions and millions of western men that have stayed with a Thai bargirl since the 1970s are soooooooo ashamed of ourselves, and absolutely recognise the utter superiority of you and your fellow travellers that are shining beacons of morality in a decadent world.

Ah, that will be an attempt to transform itself-loathing into a criticism of the other person, by means of sarcasm and an appeal to numbers.

Good luck with that

Perhaps 90+% of the motivations of 90+% of the world people revolve around their sex drive. Personally I have no problem with it And I make no attempt to say that one is better than the other, but it's a delusion for the 90+% to assume that everybody else is the same as them. The metaphor I offered, the one about my dog, applies far more often than you might like to think.

Winnie

You really do think you're better than the rest of the World don't you?You are everything that's wrong with the Western World and the main reason a lot of people probably travel to South-East Asia,to escape incorrigible bores like you pontificating on life with zero life experience,fresh out of university.

The worst part is you''re probably staying in some flophouse on Khao San Road,drunk out of your mind on buckets every night with all the other gap year idiots.They simply huddle together in the same groups they would do in the student bar back at home,looking down on everyone and sneering with no interest in the local people or culture.A hilarious parody yet too obsessed with themselves and narcissistic to even realise it.

I honestly,honestly pity you and can only hope you find what you're looking for in South-East Asia,as the alternative is to head back home to become part of that perfect little life that for some reason people seem to aspire to in the West.Misery,unhappiness and fear of being alone so stuck in an unhappy,unhealthy relationship or marriage!

It's not for everyone out here and I'm afraid the bad news is it probably ain't for you my friend Willie/Winnie or whatever your name is,who cares?

[spidermike007]

Why not stop it at source,in the Isaan villages where a lot of these girls are raped by their Fathers,then pimped out by their brothers to his mates for 20 Baht a time,no wonder when the recruiters turn up it's easy pickings for them?

Then they blame the white man for turning up like a fool and getting rinsed down on Soi Cowboy at 200 Baht a beer just to look at these girls,or down Nana Plaza which isn't much cheaper!

As mentioned before old Danny boy won't go after the real criminals,the traffickers and pimps as he'd very quickly,probably within days,end up dead in a ditch somewhere.

Blaming the doddery old farts wobbling around Pattaya and Patpong is like blaming junkies for the global Heroin problem,it's been shown very clearly and time and time again that it just doesn't work,the 'War on Mongers' was lost about 2,000 years ago in biblical times!

You hold Issan in such high esteem. While I am sure some of this happens the whole pimped out by her brother for 20 baht a pop is a bit melodramatic.

I know alot of exceptional Issan people. They put the hi-so of Bangkok to shame with their family values, integrity and willingness to work hard for an honest living.

You obviously don't know any of Bangkoks Hi-Sos. I know a couple of exceptional individuals from this segment of Thai society. What makes you put them down like this?

I agree, there are some great people in Isarn..

Where does one even start to answer a question like this. The Hi-So are responsible for so many of the problems that plague this country. On so many levels, they are doing all they can to hold the country back. Do you really think they care much about the masses, and the problems that they are facing?

Let me ask this another way. Of the very wealthy friends you know here, on the average, what percent of their income, or fortunes are they giving to real charities, and projects that enrich the lives of the poor? My guess is that the amount would be much lower, that you will find in other parts of the world.

[Johnniey]

You are suggesting it's a good idea for women to charge for sex with rapists?

You seem to have a problem with comprehension. He said it would STOP men becoming rapists, not that they were rapists.

I have a problem with people that for whatever reason assume they can tell other people what to do, as if they were some saintly person never did wrong. Having sex with Thai women is not illegal, and in most cases both sides get what they want. In the vast majority of cases where wrong is done, it is by the Thai prostitute against their temporary ( or long term ) farang friend.

It also seems to me that such people feel the need to castigate western men in Thailand rather than dealing with the "problem" in their own countries. Perhaps it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling of being a shining knight on a white charger riding to the rescue of the poor Thai damsel in distress, while in their own country sex abuse goes on unabated.

I also find it reprehensible that these heroes in their own minds attack the farang scene, but complely ignore the real problems in the THAI scene, where very bad things happen. Gutless and wonders spring to my mind when I think about such people.

BTW, how do anti prostitution fanatics deal with the fact that it's actually legal in most of their own countries, LOL, and if it were to become legal in LOS would they all shut up?

I am cheered by the thought that for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth on TV over the years, it will not make one iota of difference to the farang scene, which will carry on regardless.

I'll leave you all with a thought. Why do western men spend vast amounts of money to visit Thailand for the pleasures therein when their own countries have lots of single women. Could it be that many western men have no more interest in being exploited by western women just to get laid once in a while?

With the greatest of respect, this argument seems to depend on the premise that morality equals legality. It doesn't, But it is distracted out regularly by people who behave in ways which embarrass themselves but do not like to admit it. It has the same bogus quality as the argument that says that nobody forces a prostitute to be a prostitute, that they can leave anytime they like and therefore it's all okay for a foreigner to travel to Thailand, largely to satisfy his own sexual needs.

It's a fig-leaf argument, designed only to put a veneer upon what is clearly the unacceptable exploitation of women in Thailand by people who find it difficult to manage their own sexual urges, but who wish to protest that there's nothing wrong with that. This argument reduces human beings to the level of animals in the street, and I personally find it offensive and demeaning to the many people who are not of this ilk.

I said before that I had made my final comment in this thread. Frankly I should have abided by that, because right now I feel drenched in the psychology of Pattaya sexpats, and to be perfectly honest, I feel like I need a shower. I am reminded of a saying which advises "never wrestle with pigs because you'll get dirty, and it only annoys the pig".

Over and out.

Winnie

Great post an says it all. I am staying out of this now as I don't like pigs, especially one that can't control their sexual urges.

I draw considerable consolation in regard to this discussion, by remembering an occasion when I tried to discuss quantum physics with my dog. All he did was bark at me, so I didn't do it again.

lol

[Rc2702]

Agree with a few on here you old codgers are a bloody joke sitting in bars on your own or holding each others hands until a teenager is talked into getting molested by you for a pittance. I'm in a restaurant the other day and some dirty looking Canadian guy sitting there telling his thailand stories to his thai companion and her brother. "My friend he calls them LBFM little brown <deleted> machines" my tolerance level is very good he did seem to cut short his discussion and he looked like he had about 96 hours to live anyway.

Seriously I don't think it's that big a deal if you want to get your end away but is it that difficult to find a decent one who will see you privately and spare you and her the blushes?

It's not just codgers though I came across a decent fellow who was European but based here. He was upset one night because he found out his mate had been sleeping with his ex. The mate had the heart to tell him within a week of event he lived 50 miles away and worked in same bar as lads ex, they had been split up for a year. Geezer went into psycho bar talk mode and explained how upset he was and betrayed. I'm scratching my head at this point clarifying he had not been with her for a year and last time they saw one another she tried to attack him he hot shot of her not vice versa! I'm shocked but punchline was when I voiced my difference and said "what's the problem their work mates they got close 1 night it's a year down the line what's the problem?" His reply " hey I been in thailand 3 years I had over 30 relationships since I arrived I know what I'm talking about" I had to clarify his definition thinking maybe he meant he had been on a date, pulled, had a 1 night stand but no this guy had somehow managed to have 30 "meaningful relationships in 3 years.

[Plutojames88]

Quote Dan

""Sometimes I wish that my calling was back in Australia, but theres a lot of hurt and broken girls that need assistance, and thats why Im here, he says.""

Unquote

Mmmm?

"Does this not clearly imply a religious conviction is behind his mission?"

Or is this too going to be refuted?

I notice the religious kooks here continue hurling insults

"The personal level of attacks on people making the ""simple observation "that the average woman working is not as the article leads us to be......very young .

In fact it averages out at 27.

65% have children.

Many were Carnal a decade ok .

As for crying and broken ....I am sure there are......I for one acknowledge harm which is why I personally don't partake .

But remember there are no absolutes.

It's a plain lie to claim all sex workers are screwed up.

Right now these things are happening in Thailand

Some sex workers are also elated at leaving a five star hotel room with a months pay. After being pool side two days perhaps.?

Far from crying they are begging the "" John "" to call.

A nurse is sent to a another client and her one year stint escorting has not damaged her as far as we see.

She drives a 35k USD car to the job.

Even if so ..( if she is damaged) ..is it her choice?

Why attack the John .?

You can stop this trade between two consulting adults.

Some others are seated on planes flying out of Thailand with their new husband as we speak.

Are they all sad cases ?

Do we get Dans version only as the gospel truth?

That we are hell bound for associating with woman of sin?

What is so difficult to accept about the man who explicitly solicits sex?

Is it for you to judge him with such narrow vision?

Is this article a shame piece?

Are all sex workers little girls really?

Why can't we recognise agency?

And if its established Dan is a Christian we can assume he is also against sex outside of marriage?

And homosexual ladyboys?

They are not to be rescued Dan?

Do you only want to rescue teen girls scantly glad .

Not a six footer homosexual ?

I dare you t try that sometime Dan .

I can envision Dan getting belted by a shoe.

Look the personal barrage against writers here.

Is disgraceful.

Non disclosure of their faith( which is relevant in objective matters)

The visitor to the thread are going to be msiled.

You can be objective without being a sex tourist or sex Pat .

I have several sex worker friends .

None seem in need of rescue.

One just got back from Germany .

Loads of stories and gifts.

I have been personally slandered as a sex procurer with Woking girls.

Without the slightest evidence other than I am not narrow minded .

Because I know them ""bad is me?""

Am I going to pay Dan?

And your article says we are all screwed up?

Not healthy fit happy people?

More of your narrow awareness?

And as for the woman

I don't call the poor dears "" whores"" as they do in some quarters....here.

It's curious the level of disdain they harbour....yet say they care?

And what does Dan do?

Exactly?

Offer them income?

Money?

Or simply offer them Jesus?

How does he rescue them and from whom?

This story is an old scam ......donate money link ....

Dan also looks somewhat uneducated and scruffy .

Does he have the correct visas to be working in Thailand .

These people here can not seem to debate without getting into the gutter and making judgements.

The main reason Christians seem insincere damaged people themselves .

Comments like "" you say anything to justify your sex pat life."

Sweeping judgements indeed.

The bottom line is harm exists.

On all sides.

But the silly notion of hell or woman needing Jesus wears thin.

Just as personal attacks on men.

Knowledge is structured in consciousness and men need to individually decide their own behaviours not have it dictated to.

The church is largely irrelevant .

And whilst men offer woman money many woman through sheer greed are going to proceed.

Few are trafficked and victims in the western tourist sex trade.

Woman are not all broken and suffering souls.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Plutojames88

[spidermike007]

Quote Dan

""Sometimes I wish that my calling was back in Australia, but theres a lot of hurt and broken girls that need assistance, and thats why Im here, he says.""

Unquote

Mmmm?

"Does this not clearly imply a religious conviction is behind his mission?"

Or is this too going to be refuted?

I notice the religious kooks here continue hurling insults

"The personal level of attacks on people making the ""simple observation "that the average woman working is not as the article leads us to be......very young .

In fact it averages out at 27.

65% have children.

Many were Carnal a decade ok .

As for crying and broken ....I am sure there are......I for one acknowledge harm which is why I personally don't partake .

But remember there are no absolutes.

It's a plain lie to claim all sex workers are screwed up.

Right now these things are happening in Thailand

Some sex workers are also elated at leaving a five star hotel room with a months pay. After being pool side two days perhaps.?

Far from crying they are begging the "" John "" to call.

A nurse is sent to a another client and her one year stint escorting has not damaged her as far as we see.

She drives a 35k USD car to the job.

Even if so ..( if she is damaged) ..is it her choice?

Why attack the John .?

You can stop this trade between two consulting adults.

Some others are seated on planes flying out of Thailand with their new husband as we speak.

Are they all sad cases ?

Do we get Dans version only as the gospel truth?

That we are hell bound for associating with woman of sin?

What is so difficult to accept about the man who explicitly solicits sex?

Is it for you to judge him with such narrow vision?

Is this article a shame piece?

Are all sex workers little girls really?

Why can't we recognise agency?

And if its established Dan is a Christian we can assume he is also against sex outside of marriage?

And homosexual ladyboys?

They are not to be rescued Dan?

Do you only want to rescue teen girls scantly glad .

Not a six footer homosexual ?

I dare you t try that sometime Dan .

I can envision Dan getting belted by a shoe.

Look the personal barrage against writers here.

Is disgraceful.

Non disclosure of their faith( which is relevant in objective matters)

The visitor to the thread are going to be msiled.

You can be objective without being a sex tourist or sex Pat .

I have several sex worker friends .

None seem in need of rescue.

One just got back from Germany .

Loads of stories and gifts.

I have been personally slandered as a sex procurer with Woking girls.

Without the slightest evidence other than I am not narrow minded .

Because I know them ""bad is me?""

Am I going to pay Dan?

And your article says we are all screwed up?

Not healthy fit happy people?

More of your narrow awareness?

And as for the woman

I don't call the poor dears "" whores"" as they do in some quarters....here.

It's curious the level of disdain they harbour....yet say they care?

And what does Dan do?

Exactly?

Offer them income?

Money?

Or simply offer them Jesus?

How does he rescue them and from whom?

This story is an old scam ......donate money link ....

Dan also looks somewhat uneducated and scruffy .

Does he have the correct visas to be working in Thailand .

These people here can not seem to debate without getting into the gutter and making judgements.

The main reason Christians seem insincere damaged people themselves .

Comments like "" you say anything to justify your sex pat life."

Sweeping judgements indeed.

The bottom line is harm exists.

On all sides.

But the silly notion of hell or woman needing Jesus wears thin.

Just as personal attacks on men.

Knowledge is structured in consciousness and men need to individually decide their own behaviours not have it dictated to.

The church is largely irrelevant .

And whilst men offer woman money many woman through sheer greed are going to proceed.

Few are trafficked and victims in the western tourist sex trade.

Woman are not all broken and suffering souls.

I have to agree with alot of what you said. Obviously Dan is a misguided soul, on a mission of his own, and is a fairly typical "missionary sort" who is probably doing no inner work whatsoever, on himself, but rather puts all his effort into changing the outside world. My guess is that if he spent a couple of hours a day in prayer, meditation, and the seeking of guidance, he would be doing something else with his life, that is far more productive. There is so much misunderstanding on this forum. The reality is, a man is free to do as he likes with his life, as long as he is engaging in consenting sex with women of legal age. Period. If you do not like it, you do not have to do it. Guys like Dan come from countries with very sexually repressive attitudes, and think they can change the world. He does not even have the power to change his own inner world, one iota, it would appear.

[thaibeachlovers]

Quote Dan

And if its established Dan is a Christian we can assume he is also against sex outside of marriage?

Above post edited as very long.

IMO, no real Christian would be pontificating on here that it's bad and prostitutes are going to hell. Jesus, that they claim to follow said something about judge not lest you be judged and let he who is without sin cast the first stone. He also associated with prostitutes.

[MyFrenU]

Quote Dan

And if its established Dan is a Christian we can assume he is also against sex outside of marriage?

Above post edited as very long.

IMO, no real Christian would be pontificating on here that it's bad and prostitutes are going to hell. Jesus, that they claim to follow said something about judge not lest you be judged and let he who is without sin cast the first stone. He also associated with prostitutes.

If he really was a Christian he'd know that Mary Magdalene,one of Jesus' closest disciples who witnessed the crucifixion and the resurrection was a prostitute anyway.In fact some people theorise that she was actually his wife,a prostitute,so Pattaya is just a modern-day version of the Bible on that premise every day!

Of course the people on this thread won't know this as they are not real Christians anyway,just misguided individuals with a superiority complex that nearly always hides an inferiority complex!

[Robortas Budris]

That's a matter of opinion

[Winniedapu]

Quote Dan

And if its established Dan is a Christian we can assume he is also against sex outside of marriage?

Above post edited as very long.

IMO, no real Christian would be pontificating on here that it's bad and prostitutes are going to hell. Jesus, that they claim to follow said something about judge not lest you be judged and let he who is without sin cast the first stone. He also associated with prostitutes.

If he really was a Christian he'd know that Mary Magdalene,one of Jesus' closest disciples who witnessed the crucifixion and the resurrection was a prostitute anyway.In fact some people theorise that she was actually his wife,a prostitute,so Pattaya is just a modern-day version of the Bible on that premise every day!

Of course the people on this thread won't know this as they are not real Christians anyway,just misguided individuals with a superiority complex that nearly always hides an inferiority complex!

Anyone who believes the New Testament is anything but wishful thinking and a manifesto for propaganda just isn't paying attention. So pontificating on the basis of the New Testament seems a little trite.

Winnie

Winnie

[Winniedapu]

Quote Dan

And if its established Dan is a Christian we can assume he is also against sex outside of marriage?

Above post edited as very long.

IMO, no real Christian would be pontificating on here that it's bad and prostitutes are going to hell. Jesus, that they claim to follow said something about judge not lest you be judged and let he who is without sin cast the first stone. He also associated with prostitutes.

If he really was a Christian he'd know that Mary Magdalene,one of Jesus' closest disciples who witnessed the crucifixion and the resurrection was a prostitute anyway.In fact some people theorise that she was actually his wife,a prostitute,so Pattaya is just a modern-day version of the Bible on that premise every day!

Of course the people on this thread won't know this as they are not real Christians anyway,just misguided individuals with a superiority complex that nearly always hides an inferiority complex!

Anyone who believes the New Testament is anything other than wishful thinking or a propaganda document must be pretty determined to be gullible.

For very good reasons.

My view...

Winnie

[Robortas Budris]

That's what I think