CDC turns down invitation to join televised debate on new draft charter

[sjaak327]

Of course CDC should not be involved. it would be like the directors of a movie being on the movie review panel.

CDC formulate the charter and others debate the pro's and con's of it.

Good to see televised open debate on the subject though. Open televised debate had been sorely lacking with previous governments so much so they absolutely refused to debate anything. It was an illusion of democracy if you will.

Of course the CDC should be involved, so they can explain the reasoning behing the constitution and could explain a few very controversial sections in it. Because those sections indeed make this whole affair an illusion of democracy but not a real democracy.

I am pertty sure previous governments didn't pass laws that could land people in jail for up to ten years merely advocating others to vote against or for the draft constitution, nor did those governments lack a mandate from parliament. So in fact those governements didn't provide an illusion of democracy, they were democratically choosen, and could be democratically be removed. Oh I almost forgot, nor did those governments tear up the constitution du jour and wrote one of their own with far reaching powers and a far reaching amnesty to boot.

The illusion of democracy is what Thailand will get when this constitution receives a yes vote, if it doesn't, Thailand will get the same thing anyway...

Funniest post of the day "djjamie", hope the booze was good.

Edited July 24, 2016 by sjaak327

[smedly]

What would happen in Australia if a government was voted in and then simply ignored laws it didn't like, did things without transparency and accountability, threatened, intimidated, and sued people who criticized, intimidated judges and openly said they would defy judgments they didn't like and that making the "wrong judgments would have consequences" and finally angered vast numbers of the people by trying to ram through an Amnesty Bill that would have whitewashed their party owner and de facto leader without adhering to parliamentary procedure?

Would the GG act? Would the courts or military act? To whom do they sear allegiance?

Can you imagine that analogy?

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't most/all democracies have provisions in place to handle wrongdoings by the government? I know for a fact that in the country I come from there is a constitutional court specifically for the purpose of handling impeachment of members of parliament, the government and the supreme court.

and if the sitting government decides to ignore such courts have judges threatened and attempt to dismantle them - what does that tell you ?????? I cannot believe you don't see what was going on or chose to totally ignore it....seriously

An I cannot believe that you believe that coup no. 13 is the answer....seriously. ESPECIALLY after what has (not) happened during the last 2 + years.

to coin and old phrase - Rome wasn't built in a day, you seriously think Thailands many problems can be solved overnight ? honestly, how many years did it take for the USA to develop to what it is now, how many years did it take for Black people in America to have equal rights even with their super Constitution in place......these things take time and Thailand has many many problems that need dealt with - there is no easy solution but just maybe a path has been created that will eventually produce results

[sjaak327]

Also, let's not get ahead of ourselves here, I doubt the debate will be open, and the participants will probably be carefuly chosen, with a nice Humvee at the entrance in case those chosen might get out of line, they can directly be transported to their attitude adjustment session....

[MZurf]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't most/all democracies have provisions in place to handle wrongdoings by the government? I know for a fact that in the country I come from there is a constitutional court specifically for the purpose of handling impeachment of members of parliament, the government and the supreme court.

and if the sitting government decides to ignore such courts have judges threatened and attempt to dismantle them - what does that tell you ?????? I cannot believe you don't see what was going on or chose to totally ignore it....seriously

An I cannot believe that you believe that coup no. 13 is the answer....seriously. ESPECIALLY after what has (not) happened during the last 2 + years.

to coin and old phrase - Rome wasn't built in a day, you seriously think Thailands many problems can be solved overnight ? honestly, how many years did it take for the USA to develop to what it is now, how many years did it take for Black people in America to have equal rights even with their super Constitution in place......these things take time and Thailand has many many problems that need dealt with - there is no easy solution but just maybe a path has been created that will eventually produce results

I totally agree that to change Thailand into a proper democratic country in the Western sense will take time - lots of time. I just disagree with the notion that this can be done by a junta, especially this junta. Nothing that Prayuth and Prawit has done (or should I say not done) indicates that this could happen. Again, what makes you think this could happen?

And also, you said a few posts ago that you disagree with many things the junta has done. Care to list them?

Edited July 24, 2016 by MZurf

[smedly]

Also, let's not get ahead of ourselves here, I doubt the debate will be open, and the participants will probably be carefuly chosen, with a nice Humvee at the entrance in case those chosen might get out of line, they can directly be transported to their attitude adjustment session....

well if they act like thugs then why not, Thailand is unfortunately full of Thugs that don't know how to conduct themselves without an assault rifle and a grenade launcher, the current government have so far been very tolerant but also steadfast with their resolve to keep things peaceful

[TKDfella]

IMHO, it's all a bit late anyway, whatever the TV programme will be. Is this the response to those 117 who wanted open debate...what else could one expect. This is a military regime, first, middle and last. I cannot see them being so benevolent as to just hand things over through a new constitution or election. I do hope I'm wrong, but I think the military is here for quite a while to come.

However, having said that, I don't wish to see the fighting between this and that group either. I think this country has gotten itself into some kind groove and it isn't going to be easy to get out of it.

[smedly]

and if the sitting government decides to ignore such courts have judges threatened and attempt to dismantle them - what does that tell you ?????? I cannot believe you don't see what was going on or chose to totally ignore it....seriously

An I cannot believe that you believe that coup no. 13 is the answer....seriously. ESPECIALLY after what has (not) happened during the last 2 + years.

to coin and old phrase - Rome wasn't built in a day, you seriously think Thailands many problems can be solved overnight ? honestly, how many years did it take for the USA to develop to what it is now, how many years did it take for Black people in America to have equal rights even with their super Constitution in place......these things take time and Thailand has many many problems that need dealt with - there is no easy solution but just maybe a path has been created that will eventually produce results

I totally agree that to change Thailand into a proper democratic country in the Western sense will take time - lots of time. I just disagree with the notion that this can be done by a junta, especially this junta. Nothing that Prayuth and Prawit has done (or should I say not done) indicates that this could happen. Again, what makes you think this could happen?

And also, you said a few posts ago that you disagree with many things the junta has done. Care to list them?

And just how do you think such changes would come about ? no past elected government would be interested as they are too busy enriching themselves and abusing power.

I am not going to list anything for you, take my word for it or don't - I don't really give a s

as for the violations that many like you mention on TVF - what is really the worst that has happened to anyone

They have been brought in and had a talking too and at worst if they are persistent offenders they have been taken to court, I do however severely disagree with the treatment of the two 8 year old children, although we don't have all the details they can hardly be held responsible unless of course they were encouraged by adults then the adults should be dealt with

[smedly]

IMHO, it's all a bit late anyway, whatever the TV programme will be. Is this the response to those 117 who wanted open debate...what else could one expect. This is a military regime, first, middle and last. I cannot see them being so benevolent as to just hand things over through a new constitution or election. I do hope I'm wrong, but I think the military is here for quite a while to come.

However, having said that, I don't wish to see the fighting between this and that group either. I think this country has gotten itself into some kind groove and it isn't going to be easy to get out of it.

I agree, great post

[heybruce]

An I cannot believe that you believe that coup no. 13 is the answer....seriously. ESPECIALLY after what has (not) happened during the last 2 + years.

to coin and old phrase - Rome wasn't built in a day, you seriously think Thailands many problems can be solved overnight ? honestly, how many years did it take for the USA to develop to what it is now, how many years did it take for Black people in America to have equal rights even with their super Constitution in place......these things take time and Thailand has many many problems that need dealt with - there is no easy solution but just maybe a path has been created that will eventually produce results

"how many years did it take for the USA to develop to what it is now"

The USA has been using the same constitution, with some amendments, since 1789. You do the math. More to the point, the USA has been evolving democratically, with no coups, since 1789.

This will be Thailand's twentieth constitution since the military forced it to become a "constitutional monarchy" in 1932. What is the longest time since then Thailand has been allowed to go without a coup?

Edited July 24, 2016 by heybruce

[sjaak327]

Also, let's not get ahead of ourselves here, I doubt the debate will be open, and the participants will probably be carefuly chosen, with a nice Humvee at the entrance in case those chosen might get out of line, they can directly be transported to their attitude adjustment session....

well if they act like thugs then why not, Thailand is unfortunately full of Thugs that don't know how to conduct themselves without an assault rifle and a grenade launcher, the current government have so far been very tolerant but also steadfast with their resolve to keep things peaceful

You and djjamie seem to be trying to compete for the funniest and nonsensical post of the day. The topic is a televised debate, I very much doubt people would attend equipped with an assault rifle or a grenade launcher. That sort of thing is more to the tune of the ones you so heavily defend.

Or did you already forget how they came to power in the first place ?

The junta has been everything but tolerant, get out of your ivory tower and have a look in the real world.

As to keeping things peaceful, I already told you once that is just a placebo, but some people either have no clue about human history, or refuse to connect the dots.

Edited July 24, 2016 by sjaak327

[heybruce]

I totally agree that to change Thailand into a proper democratic country in the Western sense will take time - lots of time. I just disagree with the notion that this can be done by a junta, especially this junta. Nothing that Prayuth and Prawit has done (or should I say not done) indicates that this could happen. Again, what makes you think this could happen?

And also, you said a few posts ago that you disagree with many things the junta has done. Care to list them?

And just how do you think such changes would come about ? no past elected government would be interested as they are too busy enriching themselves and abusing power.

I am not going to list anything for you, take my word for it or don't - I don't really give a s

as for the violations that many like you mention on TVF - what is really the worst that has happened to anyone

They have been brought in and had a talking too and at worst if they are persistent offenders they have been taken to court, I do however severely disagree with the treatment of the two 8 year old children, although we don't have all the details they can hardly be held responsible unless of course they were encouraged by adults then the adults should be dealt with

"And just how do you think such changes would come about ? no past elected government would be interested as they are too busy enriching themselves and abusing power."

Seriously? Do you think the military governments don't enrich themselves, or bring about any beneficial change?

From the current issue of the Economist news magazine:

"The army had deposed him (Thaksin) in 2006, arguing that his administration was corrupt. Indeed it was, but probably no more so than most Thai governments. The army’s excuses for seizing power are wearing thin. Thailand has seen a dozen successful coups since the 1930s and a new constitution on average every four years. The army typically installs conservative governments that favour the urban elite. That has entrenched inequality and infuriated the rural poor. Mr Thaksin won two elections by wooing poor voters with free public health care and subsidies for farmers. He may have left the scene, but his supporters are still there...."

"If and when the soldiers return to barracks, they will need pruning: their idle ranks include more generals and admirals than America’s armed forces, which serve a superpower nearly five times as populous.

Politicians must rethink, too. Thailand’s middle classes may find Thaksinite populism abhorrent, but they have failed to provide poorer Thais with an alternative. The Democrat Party, the establishment’s main political outfit, has been squealing about the generals’ stifling rule. But for years it has put off the groundwork needed to win an election, betting instead that friends in the army or judiciary will help it."

The complete issue is here: http://www.economist.com/printedition/2016-07-23 You will have no trouble finding the article I quoted from. I can't provide a direct link to the article, you will understand why when you find it.

[mark131v]

I totally agree that to change Thailand into a proper democratic country in the Western sense will take time - lots of time. I just disagree with the notion that this can be done by a junta, especially this junta. Nothing that Prayuth and Prawit has done (or should I say not done) indicates that this could happen. Again, what makes you think this could happen?

And also, you said a few posts ago that you disagree with many things the junta has done. Care to list them?

And just how do you think such changes would come about ? no past elected government would be interested as they are too busy enriching themselves and abusing power.

I am not going to list anything for you, take my word for it or don't - I don't really give a s

as for the violations that many like you mention on TVF - what is really the worst that has happened to anyone

They have been brought in and had a talking too and at worst if they are persistent offenders they have been taken to court, I do however severely disagree with the treatment of the two 8 year old children, although we don't have all the details they can hardly be held responsible unless of course they were encouraged by adults then the adults should be dealt with

"And just how do you think such changes would come about ? no past elected government would be interested as they are too busy enriching themselves and abusing power."

Seriously? Do you think the military governments don't enrich themselves, or bring about any beneficial change?

From the current issue of the Economist news magazine:

"The army had deposed him (Thaksin) in 2006, arguing that his administration was corrupt. Indeed it was, but probably no more so than most Thai governments. The army’s excuses for seizing power are wearing thin. Thailand has seen a dozen successful coups since the 1930s and a new constitution on average every four years. The army typically installs conservative governments that favour the urban elite. That has entrenched inequality and infuriated the rural poor. Mr Thaksin won two elections by wooing poor voters with free public health care and subsidies for farmers. He may have left the scene, but his supporters are still there...."

"If and when the soldiers return to barracks, they will need pruning: their idle ranks include more generals and admirals than America’s armed forces, which serve a superpower nearly five times as populous.

Politicians must rethink, too. Thailand’s middle classes may find Thaksinite populism abhorrent, but they have failed to provide poorer Thais with an alternative. The Democrat Party, the establishment’s main political outfit, has been squealing about the generals’ stifling rule. But for years it has put off the groundwork needed to win an election, betting instead that friends in the army or judiciary will help it."

The complete issue is here: http://www.economist.com/printedition/2016-07-23 You will have no trouble finding the article I quoted from. I can't provide a direct link to the article, you will understand why when you find it.

Good article there Bruce thanks for sharing but I would not bother trying to enlighten the likes of Smedly and co, they are so far in denial it is scary....

[heybruce]

I totally agree that to change Thailand into a proper democratic country in the Western sense will take time - lots of time. I just disagree with the notion that this can be done by a junta, especially this junta. Nothing that Prayuth and Prawit has done (or should I say not done) indicates that this could happen. Again, what makes you think this could happen?

And also, you said a few posts ago that you disagree with many things the junta has done. Care to list them?

And just how do you think such changes would come about ? no past elected government would be interested as they are too busy enriching themselves and abusing power.

I am not going to list anything for you, take my word for it or don't - I don't really give a s

as for the violations that many like you mention on TVF - what is really the worst that has happened to anyone

They have been brought in and had a talking too and at worst if they are persistent offenders they have been taken to court, I do however severely disagree with the treatment of the two 8 year old children, although we don't have all the details they can hardly be held responsible unless of course they were encouraged by adults then the adults should be dealt with

"And just how do you think such changes would come about ? no past elected government would be interested as they are too busy enriching themselves and abusing power."

Seriously? Do you think the military governments don't enrich themselves, or bring about any beneficial change?

From the current issue of the Economist news magazine:

"The army had deposed him (Thaksin) in 2006, arguing that his administration was corrupt. Indeed it was, but probably no more so than most Thai governments. The army’s excuses for seizing power are wearing thin. Thailand has seen a dozen successful coups since the 1930s and a new constitution on average every four years. The army typically installs conservative governments that favour the urban elite. That has entrenched inequality and infuriated the rural poor. Mr Thaksin won two elections by wooing poor voters with free public health care and subsidies for farmers. He may have left the scene, but his supporters are still there...."

"If and when the soldiers return to barracks, they will need pruning: their idle ranks include more generals and admirals than America’s armed forces, which serve a superpower nearly five times as populous.

Politicians must rethink, too. Thailand’s middle classes may find Thaksinite populism abhorrent, but they have failed to provide poorer Thais with an alternative. The Democrat Party, the establishment’s main political outfit, has been squealing about the generals’ stifling rule. But for years it has put off the groundwork needed to win an election, betting instead that friends in the army or judiciary will help it."

The complete issue is here: http://www.economist.com/printedition/2016-07-23 You will have no trouble finding the article I quoted from. I can't provide a direct link to the article, you will understand why when you find it.

Good article there Bruce thanks for sharing but I would not bother trying to enlighten the likes of Smedly and co, they are so far in denial it is scary....

There are two excellent articles about the current situation of Thailand in this issue, but I can't provide direct links to either because their titles suggest the subject that must not be mentioned.

[MZurf]

An I cannot believe that you believe that coup no. 13 is the answer....seriously. ESPECIALLY after what has (not) happened during the last 2 + years.

to coin and old phrase - Rome wasn't built in a day, you seriously think Thailands many problems can be solved overnight ? honestly, how many years did it take for the USA to develop to what it is now, how many years did it take for Black people in America to have equal rights even with their super Constitution in place......these things take time and Thailand has many many problems that need dealt with - there is no easy solution but just maybe a path has been created that will eventually produce results

I totally agree that to change Thailand into a proper democratic country in the Western sense will take time - lots of time. I just disagree with the notion that this can be done by a junta, especially this junta. Nothing that Prayuth and Prawit has done (or should I say not done) indicates that this could happen. Again, what makes you think this could happen?

And also, you said a few posts ago that you disagree with many things the junta has done. Care to list them?

And just how do you think such changes would come about ? no past elected government would be interested as they are too busy enriching themselves and abusing power.

I am not going to list anything for you, take my word for it or don't - I don't really give a s

as for the violations that many like you mention on TVF - what is really the worst that has happened to anyone

They have been brought in and had a talking too and at worst if they are persistent offenders they have been taken to court, I do however severely disagree with the treatment of the two 8 year old children, although we don't have all the details they can hardly be held responsible unless of course they were encouraged by adults then the adults should be dealt with

"And just how do you think such changes would come about ? "

Not by coups, which the last eight decades have clearly shown. Or do you have evidence that the last 12 coups have done anything good???

"no past elected government would be interested as they are too busy enriching themselves and abusing power."

And that is not the case with the junta???

"I am not going to list anything for you, take my word for it or don't - I don't really give a s"

Well I don't, because the only thing I have seen is a pig headed defense of the junta, even if they are doing exactly the same as the Shin administrations were accused of doing. Case in point:

The YL administration tried to implement an amnesty and FAILED. The junta SUCCEEDED in giving themselves the mother of all amnesties.

"as for the violations that many like you mention on TVF - what is really the worst that has happened to anyone"

Violation of basic human right like the right to vote and the freedom of assembly, as well as illegal detentions. I understand you don't consider this as bad at all, but most do.

"I do however severely disagree with the treatment of the two 8 year old children..."

Good for you. That's a minimum of human decency.

"although we don't have all the details they can hardly be held responsible unless of course they were encouraged by adults then the adults should be dealt with"

Yes, a horrible crime! Look no further than Dubai!!!

[MZurf]

here some food for thought

do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM

A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses

"do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM"

And why does that matter?

"A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses"

He was elected, and AFAIK there wasn't even a hint of vote buying so the Philippinos got the president they deserve. Or do you mean it was better under Marcos??

[Holy Cinema]

What would happen in Australia if a government was voted in and then simply ignored laws it didn't like, did things without transparency and accountability, threatened, intimidated, and sued people who criticized, intimidated judges and openly said they would defy judgments they didn't like and that making the "wrong judgments would have consequences" and finally angered vast numbers of the people by trying to ram through an Amnesty Bill that would have whitewashed their party owner and de facto leader without adhering to parliamentary procedure?

Would the GG act? Would the courts or military act? To whom do they sear allegiance?

Can you imagine that analogy?

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't most/all democracies have provisions in place to handle wrongdoings by the government? I know for a fact that in the country I come from there is a constitutional court specifically for the purpose of handling impeachment of members of parliament, the government and the supreme court.

and if the sitting government decides to ignore such courts have judges threatened and attempt to dismantle them - what does that tell you ?????? I cannot believe you don't see what was going on or chose to totally ignore it....seriously

Except that's not what happened is it? The PM disbanded Parliament and called for elections, as per the constitution, the PDRC were back on the streets, and doing everything thing they could to overthrow the caretaker Government. And then when the time came to have the country vote, they did everything to prevent that, despite all your previous claims of the PTP being a minority, they would have had nothing to fear then eh? except they were never a minority only in the eyes of those who wished it.....yours included.

it took the judiciary to remove Yingluck from her caretaker position, for doing something the NCPO have been doing since day one, but don't let the double standards get in your way.

You keep bringing up this amnesty bill issue, which was killed off by the upper house, and yet you fail to address the amnesty the current crowd gave themselves, for past, present and FUTURE coups. Hypocrisy at it's best.

[smedly]

here some food for thought

do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM

A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses

"do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM"

And why does that matter?

"A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses"

He was elected, and AFAIK there wasn't even a hint of vote buying so the Philippinos got the president they deserve. Or do you mean it was better under Marcos??

it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be

unfortunately that simplistic view and what some people here on TVF think is democracy falls somewhat short of the real thing - democracy is a lot more than an election which is why countries like Thailand keep failing and imploding on itself - the structures and foundations are not properly in place to support it and while that situation continues so will the cycle of failure, the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it.

[MZurf]

here some food for thought

do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM

A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses

"do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM"

And why does that matter?

"A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses"

He was elected, and AFAIK there wasn't even a hint of vote buying so the Philippinos got the president they deserve. Or do you mean it was better under Marcos??

it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be

unfortunately that simplistic view and what some people here on TVF think is democracy falls somewhat short of the real thing - democracy is a lot more than an election which is why countries like Thailand keep failing and imploding on itself - the structures and foundations are not properly in place to support it and while that situation continues so will the cycle of failure, the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it.

"it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be"

What's the alternative - strongmen in uniform?? Exactly when has that been successful (and you can use examples from the whole world)? This is the question you NEVER answer, and there's a reason for that. Juntas have never lead to ANYTHING poisitve.

<snip>

" the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it."

No, the coup happened for two reasons. The Suthep led demonstrations (with support from you know who) were petering out and the caretaker government was arranging election. The yellows would have lost again and for the old elite that was unacceptable. The second reason was that the old elite wanted to be in power when the big transition takes place.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Jai Dee
flame comment removed

[smedly]

here some food for thought

do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM

A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses

"do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM"

And why does that matter?

"A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses"

He was elected, and AFAIK there wasn't even a hint of vote buying so the Philippinos got the president they deserve. Or do you mean it was better under Marcos??

it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be

unfortunately that simplistic view and what some people here on TVF think is democracy falls somewhat short of the real thing - democracy is a lot more than an election which is why countries like Thailand keep failing and imploding on itself - the structures and foundations are not properly in place to support it and while that situation continues so will the cycle of failure, the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it.

"it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be"

What's the alternative - strongmen in uniform?? Exactly when has that been successful (and you can use examples from the whole world)? This is the question you NEVER answer, and there's a reason for that. Juntas have never lead to ANYTHING poisitve.

<snip>

" the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it."

No, the coup happened for two reasons. The Suthep led demonstrations (with support from you know who) were petering out and the caretaker government was arranging election. The yellows would have lost again and for the old elite that was unacceptable. The second reason was that the old elite wanted to be in power when the big transition takes place.

yes a fine example of faulty red style so called democracy in action - Duterte has already stated publicly that he will execute criminals on the streets - no courts - no arrests - no trials - sound familiar.....they had an election so it must be democracy (the faulty rhetoric I have heard from many posters on TVF over and over), does that make it right, anyone that thinks that is democracy needs to go get their head looked at

[Holy Cinema]

Tell us all Smedley, how many principles of democracy are being upheld by the current "establishment" ?

Every democracy is founded on these principles, you expected those.....no demanded those where you hail from, along with all the rights that went with them, and yet are quite happy to have them ignored by EVERYONE here ?

[smedly]

Tell us all Smedley, how many principles of democracy are being upheld by the current "establishment" ?

Every democracy is founded on these principles, you expected those.....no demanded those where you hail from, along with all the rights that went with them, and yet are quite happy to have them ignored by EVERYONE here ?

we are not in a democracy right now, there is a road map in place to try and establish a stable lasting one though

I thought that was obvious to most

[MZurf]

"do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM"

And why does that matter?

"A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses"

He was elected, and AFAIK there wasn't even a hint of vote buying so the Philippinos got the president they deserve. Or do you mean it was better under Marcos??

it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be

unfortunately that simplistic view and what some people here on TVF think is democracy falls somewhat short of the real thing - democracy is a lot more than an election which is why countries like Thailand keep failing and imploding on itself - the structures and foundations are not properly in place to support it and while that situation continues so will the cycle of failure, the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it.

"it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be"

What's the alternative - strongmen in uniform?? Exactly when has that been successful (and you can use examples from the whole world)? This is the question you NEVER answer, and there's a reason for that. Juntas have never lead to ANYTHING poisitve.

<snip>

" the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it."

No, the coup happened for two reasons. The Suthep led demonstrations (with support from you know who) were petering out and the caretaker government was arranging election. The yellows would have lost again and for the old elite that was unacceptable. The second reason was that the old elite wanted to be in power when the big transition takes place.

yes a fine example of faulty red style so called democracy in action - Duterte has already stated publicly that he will execute criminals on the streets - no courts - no arrests - no trials - sound familiar.....they had an election so it must be democracy (the faulty rhetoric I have heard from many posters on TVF over and over), does that make it right, anyone that thinks that is democracy needs to go get their head looked at

For the millionth time:

What's the alternative???????????????? Unelected junta strongmen? When has that ever been a success??? When in Thailand's history has a coup solved anything??? What is it about this junta that makes you confident that this time will be different?

You keep bleating on about the imperfections of democracy but offer NO solution at all! So tell us, what's the alternative???

You DO realize that your (and the other junta supporters) inability to answer these questions makes you lose all credibility?

[smedly]

it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be

unfortunately that simplistic view and what some people here on TVF think is democracy falls somewhat short of the real thing - democracy is a lot more than an election which is why countries like Thailand keep failing and imploding on itself - the structures and foundations are not properly in place to support it and while that situation continues so will the cycle of failure, the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it.

"it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be"

What's the alternative - strongmen in uniform?? Exactly when has that been successful (and you can use examples from the whole world)? This is the question you NEVER answer, and there's a reason for that. Juntas have never lead to ANYTHING poisitve.

<snip>

" the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it."

No, the coup happened for two reasons. The Suthep led demonstrations (with support from you know who) were petering out and the caretaker government was arranging election. The yellows would have lost again and for the old elite that was unacceptable. The second reason was that the old elite wanted to be in power when the big transition takes place.

yes a fine example of faulty red style so called democracy in action - Duterte has already stated publicly that he will execute criminals on the streets - no courts - no arrests - no trials - sound familiar.....they had an election so it must be democracy (the faulty rhetoric I have heard from many posters on TVF over and over), does that make it right, anyone that thinks that is democracy needs to go get their head looked at

For the millionth time:

What's the alternative???????????????? Unelected junta strongmen? When has that ever been a success??? When in Thailand's history has a coup solved anything??? What is it about this junta that makes you confident that this time will be different?

You keep bleating on about the imperfections of democracy but offer NO solution at all! So tell us, what's the alternative???

You DO realize that your (and the other junta supporters) inability to answer these questions makes you lose all credibility?

you would have to go back a couple of years of my posts to around the time of the coup, like I have said many times, I am willing to give the new charter and the current government road map a chance, if it doesn't provide a stable and rigid democratic platform after the elections then I will be the first to call it a failure, until then there really isn't much to talk about

[Holy Cinema]

did you bother reading the charter? it favours amnesties and more coups, what's democratic about that?

[MZurf]

"it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be"

What's the alternative - strongmen in uniform?? Exactly when has that been successful (and you can use examples from the whole world)? This is the question you NEVER answer, and there's a reason for that. Juntas have never lead to ANYTHING poisitve.

<snip>

" the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it."

No, the coup happened for two reasons. The Suthep led demonstrations (with support from you know who) were petering out and the caretaker government was arranging election. The yellows would have lost again and for the old elite that was unacceptable. The second reason was that the old elite wanted to be in power when the big transition takes place.

yes a fine example of faulty red style so called democracy in action - Duterte has already stated publicly that he will execute criminals on the streets - no courts - no arrests - no trials - sound familiar.....they had an election so it must be democracy (the faulty rhetoric I have heard from many posters on TVF over and over), does that make it right, anyone that thinks that is democracy needs to go get their head looked at

For the millionth time:

What's the alternative???????????????? Unelected junta strongmen? When has that ever been a success??? When in Thailand's history has a coup solved anything??? What is it about this junta that makes you confident that this time will be different?

You keep bleating on about the imperfections of democracy but offer NO solution at all! So tell us, what's the alternative???

You DO realize that your (and the other junta supporters) inability to answer these questions makes you lose all credibility?

you would have to go back a couple of years of my posts to around the time of the coup, like I have said many times, I am willing to give the new charter and the current government road map a chance, if it doesn't provide a stable and rigid democratic platform after the elections then I will be the first to call it a failure, until then there really isn't much to talk about

"I am willing to give the new charter and the current government road map a chance..."

You must be a very patient man. Two years and two months and f*** all has happened (except the erosion of human rights). The military, police and judiciary are unreformed, and even the dimmest of lights know that without that there will be no real change in Thailand.

"until then there really isn't much to talk about."

Well, you could have fooled me. Does this mean you will stop debating the junta?

Again, for the millionth and one time:

What's the alternative (to elected officials)?? Unelected junta strongmen? When has that ever been a success??? When in Thailand's history has a coup solved anything??? What is it about this junta that makes you confident that this time will be different?

You keep bleating on about the imperfections of democracy but offer NO solution at all! So tell us, what's the alternative???

You DO realize that your (and the other junta supporters) inability to answer these questions makes you lose all credibility?

PS. It is quite amusing how the junta supporters run away from these questions like Dracula from sunlight

Edited July 25, 2016 by MZurf

[sjaak327]

Tell us all Smedley, how many principles of democracy are being upheld by the current "establishment" ?

Every democracy is founded on these principles, you expected those.....no demanded those where you hail from, along with all the rights that went with them, and yet are quite happy to have them ignored by EVERYONE here ?

we are not in a democracy right now, there is a road map in place to try and establish a stable lasting one though

I thought that was obvious to most

Oh boy, the road map that has been started by this government will NOT bring democracy to Thailand. It will just bring an illusion of democracy to Thailand. It will be a system in which a few movers and shakers that form the elite will have the real power. They will have the power to sent a government with an electoral mandate packing. Their fully appointed senate will ensure a coup isn't needed to correct or rectify anything, unless a loophole is found in which case another coup will follow.

The reason of the coup was to ensure the elite can control Thailand without being restricted by the electorate, nothing more and nothing less.

[heybruce]

here some food for thought

do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM

A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses

"do you think the democratic elected PM of the Philipeans is more like Thaksin or The current PM"

And why does that matter?

"A fine example of how democracy in SEA opperates when a despot dictater is elected and there are no laws or controls in place to stop him, watch how that one progresses"

He was elected, and AFAIK there wasn't even a hint of vote buying so the Philippinos got the president they deserve. Or do you mean it was better under Marcos??

it is a fine example of what some refer to as democracy - someone voted so it must be

unfortunately that simplistic view and what some people here on TVF think is democracy falls somewhat short of the real thing - democracy is a lot more than an election which is why countries like Thailand keep failing and imploding on itself - the structures and foundations are not properly in place to support it and while that situation continues so will the cycle of failure, the coup that brought this current government into office happened because the country was on the brink and someone stepped in to save it.

The structure and foundation for democracy most obviously lacking in Thailand is a military firmly under civilian control. Until that is in place democracy in Thailand will only last as long as it suits the military. History shows it never suits the military for long.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, the country was not on the brink. Suthep's plan, to generate sufficient violence to justify a military coup, had failed. The government did not take the bate. The only violence was committed by Suthep's supporters and a small number of hotheads angered by another attempt to topple an elected government. Your often repeated claim that the violence was orchestrated by the government is unsupported by facts.

The protest was fading, life was returning to normal, and there was a very real chance of a successful election in July 2014. The military stepped in to prevent the election.