Thailand Based Soi Dog Launches Bt550m Project to Sterilise Bangkok Street Dogs

[Artisi]

4 hours ago, Thechook said:

People around the world donated their money specifically to help The dogs and now you want to get your hands on it and divert it to your cause.

My cause, not my cause - just a considered comment, based on the fact that any one with just a little bit of compassion would consider kids welfare out-ranks dogs.

Plus, the street dog  problem is easily sorted, exterminate them - offer Bht 200 for every dead dog and there would be money left over to do something useful like vaccinate registered dogs.

 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Artisi

[Artisi]

9 hours ago, MiKT said:

 

Meaning, oh you mean meaning, yes and Somali pirates cause global warming!

Prizes! were you thinking of showing yourself at Crufts?

If I was to show myself at Crufts, I wouldn't have to worry about rubbing shoulders with diseased and otherwise useless soi dogs and would therefore miss the opportunity of meeting up with yourself.

[thai3]

Soi dogs are a massive problem with over 3 million nationwide and over 600k around bkk at least. They should offer 40 baht bounty on every dead dog then we would see how Buddhist Thais are, that would reduce the numbers far better than sterilization. They would have to sterilize them pretty quick to do anything other than stop the growth in numbers. Dead is better and i'd contribute to killing them off. 

[cumgranosalum]

There seem to be a lot of ignoramuses on this thread - culls don't work and the size of any dog population can only exist in direct relation to the food supply.

Vaccination will reduce or even almost eliminate the threat of rabies to humans - dogs are a hazard in terms of other zoonotic diseases.

Sterilisation can help reduce the population if enough numbers are sterilised - chemically or by capture - but this also needs to be accompanied by other measures - e.g. foodv supply and attitude of locals.

In small populations for example on islands a cull can work, but it is a very difficult procedure.

 

it has taken the US over 50 years to deal with their dog problem. only  now is supply outstripping demand.

Edited August 2, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[ClutchClark]

7 hours ago, Dagnabbit said:

So let me get this right.

If they culled all stray dogs, there would still be a rabies problem with stray dogs?

We aren't talking about "removal or culling of vaccinated dogs" - we are talking about a cull of dogs that have not been vaccinated. All of them.

Rabies isn't the only issue. They spread disease, bite children and leave feces all over the place.

A total cull is a low cost, effective solution.

There are actually private business people who finance Soi Dog culls.

They transport the dogs through the northern border and sell the dog meat.

[cumgranosalum]

For heaven sake! If you simply kill all the dogs in one area, they are rapidly replaced up to the previous level by the remaining or neighbouring dogs. the rate of breeding will increase exponentially in relation to the newly abundant food supply - dogs are prolific reproducers.

 

Secondly you need t take into account the public's feelings about this - in Thailand the last time a cull was attempted it had to be stopped due to public pressure - as it was a pointless exercise in the first place - it just goes to show how incompetent these people were.

 

the next problem is that you have to identity all the dogs before you kill them - and any left will immediately start breeding to fill the gap.

 

there are estimated to be  (according to this current lot) 650,000 dogs - that's a lot of fetid carcasses to dispose of - in itself a health hazard

 

Frankly anyone who thinks their is a quick once-and-for-all solution to this problem is living in cloud cuckoo land

 

[Artisi]

14 minutes ago, cumgranosalum said:

14 minutes ago, cumgranosalum said:

There seem to be a lot of ignoramuses on this thread - culls don't work and the size of any dog population can only exist in direct relation to the food supply.

Vaccination will reduce or even almost eliminate the threat of rabies to humans - dogs are a hazard in terms of other zoonotic diseases.

Sterilisation can help reduce the population if enough numbers are sterilised - chemically or by capture - but this also needs to be accompanied by other measures - e.g. foodv supply and attitude of locals.

In small populations for example on islands a cull can work, but it is a very difficult procedure.

 

it has taken the US over 50 years to deal with their dog problem. only  now is supply outstripping demand.

There seem to be a lot of ignoramuses on this thread - culls don't work and the size of any dog population can only exist in direct relation to the food supply.

Vaccination will reduce or even almost eliminate the threat of rabies to humans - dogs are a hazard in terms of other zoonotic diseases.

Sterilisation can help reduce the population if enough numbers are sterilised - chemically or by capture - but this also needs to be accompanied by other measures - e.g. foodv supply and attitude of locals.

In small populations for example on islands a cull can work, but it is a very difficult procedure.

 

it has taken the US over 50 years to deal with their dog problem. only  now is supply outstripping demand.

Absolute BS, if you are able to get close enough to a dog for capture or chemical sterilization, when you are close enough for elimination, total problem solved - no disease - no dogs wandering the streets, as it might also be worth adding, rabies is not the only problem of soi dogs, or haven't you ever noticed the number of dogs wandering the streets of Thailand.

And as for 50 years for the US to solve their problem , was that eradication of rabies etc. or removal of something like 3m dogs off the streets?

Further,  seems your sarcastic, holier than thou, self-righteous attitude with never a comment of your own, only what you can gleam from research and the comments of others is your forte.

[Artisi]

14 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

There are actually private business people who finance Soi Dog culls.

They transport the dogs through the northern border and sell the dog meat.

Good, made the government can increase the financial support and encourage more into the business. 

[longball53098]

I read somewhere that scientists have developed a dog food that will sterilize only the male dog. It was set for testing but I never heard any more about it. This would be a simple solution as the male cannot make babies and all the other critters that may eat the food get a good meal and nothing more.

[cumgranosalum]

37 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Absolute BS, if you are able to get close enough to a dog for capture or chemical sterilization, when you are close enough for elimination, total problem solved - no disease - no dogs wandering the streets, as it might also be worth adding, rabies is not the only problem of soi dogs, or haven't you ever noticed the number of dogs wandering the streets of Thailand.

And as for 50 years for the US to solve their problem , was that eradication of rabies etc. or removal of something like 3m dogs off the streets?

Further,  seems your sarcastic, holier than thou, self-righteous attitude with never a comment of your own, only what you can gleam from research and the comments of others is your forte.

All you are achieving to to demonstrate how utterly ignorant you are on this issue.

" only what you can gleam from research and the comments of others" - you might try a bit of that yourself - it would save you from the nonsense you promulgate

Edited August 2, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[cumgranosalum]

14 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

Like I said, I directed an organization that has worked on Dog Sterilization efforts in a few underdevleloped countries throught the world.

Your above post strongly suggests you have no actual experience on the subject at all. 

The way animal populations "reduce themselves quite naturally" when their food supply is cut off? 

Ah...its called starvation.

It ain't pretty, it ain't painless, it ain't fast, and a starving animal is an unpredictable animal and often an aggressive animal.

the last word is yours...you actually do a better job of losing your argument with every post you submit.

 

 

 

I suspect your answer reveals more then you realise.

 

“I have experience” - why do people say that? I usually means they don’t actually have an argument and are unable to reply to dearly held prejudices that clearly no longer hold water.....

 

Firstly you won’t be judged by your claims of experience but by what you say - and what you say is profoundly uninformed - your views are archaic.

 

Your experience it would seem counts for nothing as you have demonstrated a singular lack of knowledge about how to solve a dog population problem.

I’m sure you like dogs, but sadly that is not enough ...one needs to understand the causes of the problem

 

You seem quite oblivious to the dynamics of a dog population and how food shortages reduce birth rates and that natural wastage actually takes up the slack - and it is also clear you haven’t thought how street dogs die either.

Just as those who ran the Tiger temple can claim 20 years of experience with Tigers - virtually everything they did was WRONG

 

Yet you are convinced that citing experience is an argument against scientific reasoning. Have you heard of the dunning Kruger effect, because you seem to be demonstrating it perfectly?

 

You seem to think that stray dogs die a peaceful death if their is food around - have you never thought how or why stray dogs die? ...... or do  you really think they float away to doggie heaven?????

[cumgranosalum]

22 minutes ago, longball53098 said:

I read somewhere that scientists have developed a dog food that will sterilize only the male dog. It was set for testing but I never heard any more about it. This would be a simple solution as the male cannot make babies and all the other critters that may eat the food get a good meal and nothing more.

Most dog contraceptives involve "catch and release" - which is costly - as the exercise in BKK will show. However the idea of leaving food "contaminated" with dog contraceptives lying around - even in targeted areas would have several problems associate4d. Ingestion by unintended animals for one, possible contamination - e.g. of water supplies and surrounding land and overall effectiveness would be questionable. Remember it would have to be a PERMENANT contraception - not something administered monthly.

[nausea]

Being an animal lover (not in an anthropmorphic sense, but just recognising them as sentient beings) I welcome this initiative, which seems to me a practical, long term realistic solution. Not surprised it's funded by a UK organisation. Let's hope it doesn't get bogged down by corruption. The kid's issue - I do wonder how many people who complain about animal initiatives actually contribute to children's charities. In my view, this isn't money taken from kids, it's funds raised in addition to those kids would've got anyway. I can think of a lot less worthy ways people's discretionary disposable income is used which are not subject to such criticism.  It's a ludricous line of thought in a way. A person might choose to spend money on beer, or women, or a new car , ot contributions to a children's charity, or "animal welfare", yet the latter is subject to special criticism. 

[Alive]

Bangkok is right next to Thailand they say. That idea seems to be proven everyday. They certainly are cleaning it up. They got rid of the street vendors, elephants, beggars, and now the dogs. This will help but if the rest of the nation's dogs are ignored they'll somehow make their way into the city again.

[MiKT]

8 hours ago, Dagnabbit said:

Sorry - but your assertion is ludicrous.

Let me spell it out.

Dead dogs cannot breed. Neither can sterilized dogs. 

The problem with sterilized dogs is they can still walk around, spread disease and bite people. 

If you kill all the dogs, you immediately reduce the population. Sterilizing then does not do this. So of course a complete cull will reduce the population much faster.

 

You obviously have no idea how hard it is to eliminate all stray dogs.  20 years ago and less you would see dead dogs all over the roads throughout Thailand as lorry drivers were encouraged to kill as many as they could; leaving dead an injured dogs spread all over the place, not making not one jot of difference to the stray dog population, but hugely adding to the problem of insect born diseases and rabies as the dead dogs were eaten by other animals and the flies loved the bloated rotting carcasses.

Even on a small island like HK it proved almost impossible to eliminate packs of stray dogs from the streets until the sheer press of humanity reduced the problem, even though the sea eagles and kites lived on the strays. HK also used to employ squads of "dog catchers" and it was always amusing to watch them in action. Dogs are much cleverer than many think.

Of course its clear that in the minds of some of our "lovely" fellow posters they did a wimpy job and should have been spraying the streets with automatic gun fire as the cowering dogs ran for cover!

Poisoning does not work either as it indiscriminately kills wild life and prize dogs that should be shown at Crufts.........just like our esteemed  poster, but in his case poisoning would probably not have any effect on such a low form of life.

It also leaves rotting carcasses around with effects as noted above.

This new sterilization programme is the only long term answer and should be supported by all who want to see the stray dog population eliminated eventually.

The real crux of the problem is not real stray dogs, but the semi-stray dogs, half-adopted and allowed to exist outside the property of those here who think they are being kind, but would not let the dogs into their home. Its the same with cats.

And yes, I do put my money where my mouth is as I have had all my dogs sterilized and I do contribute to soi-dogs. Plus I help some of my neighbors to pay to sterilize their dogs and cats.

 

 

 

 

 

[Alive]

Anything is better than doing nothing. I just hope they do it around the nation and educate people on how to control animals. The Thai government should have it local animal officers involved. People should be encouraged to take in street dogs rather than buying special dogs.

[dageurreotype]

18 hours ago, Artisi said:

Money would be much better spent on homeless kids, their education and housing. Round up the dogs and exterminate them - a far more useful endeavour. 

Why is it anything, anything at all to do with dogs here brings out the very worst of the expat contingent on these forums? I really don't get it. If you have nothing to post with reference to the topic at hand, then simply better not to post at all rather that deflect and obfuscate. Your post is  not to mention 'flaming'.

[cardinalblue]

Why do people have such trouble with there vs their Cum?

the problem with sterilization is the average soi dog's life is 2 years so one has to question cost effectiveness....

 

[dageurreotype]

7 minutes ago, Alive said:

Anything is better than doing nothing. I just hope they do it around the nation and educate people on how to control animals. The Thai government should have it local animal officers involved. People should be encouraged to take in street dogs rather than buying special dogs.

The last of my adopted soi dogs, or rather, they adopted me, passed a few months back. I was missing the canine companionship and accompanied exercise, and had mentioned to a friend who relocated to CM that if he came across a Mah Thai pup to ship it down. He'd replied that there were plenty of homeless dogs up there as no Soi Dog Foundation same as Phuket where they've all but disappeared. So believe this latest initiative by this wonderful organisation a very good one. Perhaps they'll move their operations (no pun intended) up to CM at some point. Wholeheartedly agree with the taking in of homeless street dogs, as did I, rather than fund yet more puppy mills.

[Artisi]

3 hours ago, dageurreotype said:

Why is it anything, anything at all to do with dogs here brings out the very worst of the expat contingent on these forums? I really don't get it. If you have nothing to post with reference to the topic at hand, then simply better not to post at all rather that deflect and obfuscate. Your post is  not to mention 'flaming'.

Likewise, when ever dogs are mentioned it brings out the worst of the dog lovers who believe they are the only thing on this planet worth discussing, well guess what - you are way wrong, Bangkok doesn't need thousands of dogs on the street which you along with others believe is OK.

So, if you like and want a dog/s - great - keep it/them off the streets unless directly under your control, otherwise they should be rounded up and exterminated.

As for "flaming" think you need to address your own comments before criticizing others.  

3 hours ago, Alive said:

Anything is better than doing nothing. I just hope they do it around the nation and educate people on how to control animals. The Thai government should have it local animal officers involved. People should be encouraged to take in street dogs rather than buying special dogs.

Thai people take in soi dogs, yeah sure, many don't bother looking after the ones they have bought - sometimes at huge expense once they are no longer playful pups.

[Dagnabbit]

4 hours ago, MiKT said:

 

You obviously have no idea how hard it is to eliminate all stray dogs.  20 years ago and less you would see dead dogs all over the roads throughout Thailand as lorry drivers were encouraged to kill as many as they could; leaving dead an injured dogs spread all over the place, not making not one jot of difference to the stray dog population, but hugely adding to the problem of insect born diseases and rabies as the dead dogs were eaten by other animals and the flies loved the bloated rotting carcasses.

Even on a small island like HK it proved almost impossible to eliminate packs of stray dogs from the streets until the sheer press of humanity reduced the problem, even though the sea eagles and kites lived on the strays. HK also used to employ squads of "dog catchers" and it was always amusing to watch them in action. Dogs are much cleverer than many think.

Of course its clear that in the minds of some of our "lovely" fellow posters they did a wimpy job and should have been spraying the streets with automatic gun fire as the cowering dogs ran for cover!

Poisoning does not work either as it indiscriminately kills wild life and prize dogs that should be shown at Crufts.........just like our esteemed  poster, but in his case poisoning would probably not have any effect on such a low form of life.

It also leaves rotting carcasses around with effects as noted above.

This new sterilization programme is the only long term answer and should be supported by all who want to see the stray dog population eliminated eventually.

The real crux of the problem is not real stray dogs, but the semi-stray dogs, half-adopted and allowed to exist outside the property of those here who think they are being kind, but would not let the dogs into their home. Its the same with cats.

And yes, I do put my money where my mouth is as I have had all my dogs sterilized and I do contribute to soi-dogs. Plus I help some of my neighbors to pay to sterilize their dogs and cats.

 

So you are comparing truck drives hitting the occasional dog to an organised cull?

That because a few truck drivers didn't put a dent in the dog population, then an organised cull wouldn't?

That is an amazingly simplistic viewpoint.

As for rotting carcasses - do you think an organized cull would just leave the dead dogs lying around? 

It's simple. 1 team per Amphur. Give them 100 Baht bonus for each dog culled. Problem will be solved in about 3 months.

[cumgranosalum]

5 minutes ago, Dagnabbit said:

So you are comparing truck drives hitting the occasional dog to an organised cull?

That because a few truck drivers didn't put a dent in the dog population, then an organised cull wouldn't?

That is an amazingly simplistic viewpoint.

As for rotting carcasses - do you think an organized cull would just leave the dead dogs lying around? 

It's simple. 1 team per Amphur. Give them 100 Baht bonus for each dog culled. Problem will be solved in about 3 months.

Culls do not work - it has been shown time and again. Just get used to it.

 

furthrermore if you were to kill all estimated 650,000 dogs roaming the streets of BKK alone - you have a carcass problem and all for no benefit whatsoever. 

get with it.....

[MiKT]

2 hours ago, Dagnabbit said:

So you are comparing truck drives hitting the occasional dog to an organised cull?

That because a few truck drivers didn't put a dent in the dog population, then an organised cull wouldn't?

That is an amazingly simplistic viewpoint.

As for rotting carcasses - do you think an organized cull would just leave the dead dogs lying around? 

It's simple. 1 team per Amphur. Give them 100 Baht bonus for each dog culled. Problem will be solved in about 3 months.

 

Actually it was a lot more than a few truck drivers, as you would know if you had been here. I have seen literally dozens of dead dogs in one day on long trips to the North and South. It used to horrify me and still does. Some drivers used to go out of their way to kill any dog they saw, in the road, on the pavement, anywhere.

Also culling did not work even in a relatively closed environment like HK island, let alone in the NT.

Do you really think that all this has not been tried before in Thailand, especially in KT?

There have been periods when the stray dog population was seriously reduced by culling (and rotting carcases did lie around - TiT), but it still did not work in the long term. That is why we should help and encourage this new imitative.  The stray dog problem is one of the things I have always hated about Thailand. Not the poor dogs, but the way they are treated.

Even a dog hater like you should go for the best way to solve the problem,  but I suppose a humane approach does not satisfy the "kill em all" merchants who blot this forum.

 

Edited August 2, 2016 by MiKT

[longball53098]

I think this is the study I read a few years ago.

 

http://www.acc-d.org/resource-library/position-statements/acc-d-position-on-600-million-stray-dogs-need-you

[cumgranosalum]

7 minutes ago, longball53098 said:

I think this is the study I read a few years ago.

 

http://www.acc-d.org/resource-library/position-statements/acc-d-position-on-600-million-stray-dogs-need-you

 

From this article...

 

"We would be thrilled if 600 Million could offer the product that it seeks funds to develop. Unfortunately, the organization has demonstrated a consistent lack of transparency, data, and results, plus a history of providing misleading information on the status of its progress and partnerships."

 

and...

"The organization’s aspirations and assumptions are lofty, including but not limited to: 1) a product that can sterilize a dog in a single dose but will not have adverse effects if multiple are consumed; 2) a product that will be safe if consumed by non-target mammalian species (which would presumably include wildlife and humans); and 3) a product approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and/or Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), plus international regulatory agencies, despite these aforementioned considerations."

 

So unless there has been a stunning leap in the pro=cess, i would think it is unlikely to be relevant to the BKK operation. Unless someone has cdonned the local government into being guinea pigs for the product?

 

[longball53098]

Its a start and you have to start somewhere. Thailand is not progressive enough to be a leader and start a trial of some sort. Certainly seems better than killing a bunch of dogs

[cumgranosalum]

Ridding the country of "excess" dogs in necessary - they are a health problem on several levels from Rabies and other zootonic diseases to causing road accidents and destruction on wildlife and environment.

 

The reduction is population in most countries is usually hampered by people who call themselves "dog lovers" - these people disregard science and focus on the anthropomorphic, impractical and unscientific thus complicating efforts to solve the problem.

 

These dogs will not go to doggie heaven.

reducing their access to a food supply will not result in packs of angry/hungry dogs - it will result in gradual reduction in the dog population

Not every dog will find a loving home.

Culls don't work but many animals need to be euthanised as part of any program.

Sterilisation of both males and females still involves capture and release.

Dog-helping foundations need to be closely monitored as to how they keep their animals and these involved need to be educated in the science.

 

largely die to public pressure and a generally eld naive attitude towards "stray" dogs the Thai authorities inaction has lead to the problem becoming so large that any long-term solution  will be costly and take years to implement.

 

Yet another case of the authorities inaction that has allowed a problem to grow out of control.

 

 

[cumgranosalum]

28 minutes ago, longball53098 said:

Its a start and you have to start somewhere. Thailand is not progressive enough to be a leader and start a trial of some sort. Certainly seems better than killing a bunch of dogs

What is a "start"?

[ClutchClark]

43 minutes ago, cumgranosalum said:

 

reducing their access to a food supply will not result in packs of angry/hungry dogs - 

 

 

 

No matter how many times you repeat yourself you are still as wrong as your first effort.

 

this statement alone shows you have zero knowledge of animal behavior.

[cumgranosalum]

2 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

No matter how many times you repeat yourself you are still as wrong as your first effort.

 

this statement alone shows you have zero knowledge of animal behavior.

CC has no idea of dog behaviour - he is sadly one of those "do gooders" who thinks that "loving dogs" is all that is needed - attitudes like this actually hinder solving the dog problem. Unfortunately people like this claim "experience" - what they actually mean is for years they have been virtually ineffective and barking up the wrong tree

ALL animal populations are in direct proportion to the food supply - it is nothing to do with packs of angry/hungry animals - dogs are prolific breeders and when the food supply is reduced the breeding rate goes down.

 

CC carefully avoids approaching the topic of how stray dogs dies - the truth is that most of then starve - they get to a point where for whatever reason they can't fed any more and then starve - it not pretty but it is a fact of life.  yes - I'm also aware that many dogs have a sudden and vilent death under the wheels of traffic - and cause many injuries to humans in the process.

 

.