Paris restaurant 'refuses to serve Muslim women'

[Shawn0000]

46 minutes ago, Seraphina said:

That's called, having the last word, dear. And I'm not arguing, I'm stating facts.

 

Fact: I've been based in the Middle East for 9 years. My region covers KSA, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Egypt and Lebanon and parts of North Africa. So, now tell me I've no right to talk about Muslim issues... because if so, that says more about you than it does me.

 

I don't deny you any right other than the bigoted rant you went into before. 

 

So, last chance, have you now seen the video?  Do you now accept that you were wrong and the women were kicked out for being Muslim?

[TommyUK1960]

Its the restaurateur owner decision, His establishment,  the owners have every right to refuse who ever he wants to. This can also happen in Britain. I fully back the Restaurant owner as I don't want to be sitting next to woman wearing hijab's. This is Europe and its time for the Muslims to become European or leave.

By the way we have food places in Britain who refuse to serve None Muslims.

 

[simple1]

12 minutes ago, TommyUK1960 said:

Its the restaurateur owner decision, His establishment,  the owners have every right to refuse who ever he wants to. This can also happen in Britain. I fully back the Restaurant owner as I don't want to be sitting next to woman wearing hijab's. This is Europe and its time for the Muslims to become European or leave.

By the way we have food places in Britain who refuse to serve None Muslims.

 

 

This an old thread and identifies those 'right on centre' whose beliefs, if enacted, would lead very rapidly to an  uncivilised  society.

 

In the UK it is illegal to refuse service based upon discrimination e.g. religion or ethnicity. I trust that anyone who was refused service because they are non Muslim would take legal action.

 

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/discrimination/discrimination-because-of-race-religion-or-belief/discrimination-because-of-religion-or-belief/

[Shawn0000]

30 minutes ago, TommyUK1960 said:

Its the restaurateur owner decision, His establishment,  the owners have every right to refuse who ever he wants to. This can also happen in Britain. I fully back the Restaurant owner as I don't want to be sitting next to woman wearing hijab's. This is Europe and its time for the Muslims to become European or leave.

By the way we have food places in Britain who refuse to serve None Muslims.

 

 

No, you are wrong, France has laws protecting people from this type of discrimination.  If he had of not given any reason and simply refused them service then there would have been no provable case of discrimination, however as he gave his reasons on film as being because of some irrational fear of all Muslims being potential terrorists, he broke the law.

 

As for you not wanting sit next to a woman wearing a scarf and this being Europe.  My grandmother wore a scarf covering her hair every time she left the house, as did many women of her generation, she was a Catholic and European, would you have also not wanted to sit next to her or is it actually Muslims you don't want to sit next to and actually nothing to do with attire?

 

What are these food places that refuse to serve Muslims in the UK?  Never heard of it, heard of them getting prosecuting for trying but never heard of one continuing for long, the law is clear.

[Seraphina]

Calm down everyone! All I said was this is a fuss about nothing. I never said the restauranteur was in the right. I said it's not uncommon in France for owners to be rude and refuse to serve you. for God's sake, I myself have been refused service in France (45 minutes is not enough time to cut hair before going to lunch at midday apparently), refused entry to a shop in the Middle East because I was a woman and refused entry to a building in Thailand! Unpleasant experiences every one, but did I make a big fuss about any of them?

And btw, 15 years ago, on nearly every flight I took, I was asked by Emirates staff to change my seat on the aircraft because a local Arab woman onboard didn't want to sit next to a man! Who knows, maybe a ranting feminist wouldn't agree to move?

 

When I said that different  Arab countries have different names for things, the attached is an illustration of names for veils. You will note Shawn, included is the name I used for a veil, "shayla", which you said was wrong! For your information, it is mostly used in the Emirates.

 

K. Armstrong’s “The Battle for God”, published by Harpers Perrenial, explores the rise of fundamentalism in the three main monotheisms (and why we didn’t foresee it) at the same time acknowledging that fundamentalists from other sects, such as Hindus, Buddhists and even Confucians, also exist. It explains why it develops and what it tells us about our own culture. ISBN 0-00-638348.

 

Don't get me started on French laws because the law really is "an ass" here. I live in France, a socialist country I might add, which pays its part-time university teachers 12 months after they've finished their last class. Since a scholastic term is 6 months, that makes 18 months to pay day! You couldn't get away with that in any other European country. So much for basic human rights in France! Hurrah for égalité! 

 

[Seraphina]

I did a presentation based on primary research in 1985 at a Dubai Conference entitled, "The changing lifestyles and values of GCC females". I will be giving an update of this survey in Penang, Malaysia in 2017. My final slide says this:

Quote

 

Don't be a media sheep!

1.Be aware of your own prejudices and those of other people, including Arabs.

2.If this subject genuinely interests you, read books and do your own research so that you can form your own opinions.

 

 

[Seraphina]

For the "righteous" who say, "he broke the law", remember that you break the law every time you go over 70 miles an hour in the UK or whatever the speed limit is where you live. 

[Shawn0000]

7 minutes ago, Seraphina said:

Calm down everyone! All I said was this is a fuss about nothing. I never said the restauranteur was in the right. I said it's not uncommon in France for owners to be rude and refuse to serve you. for God's sake, I myself have been refused service in France (45 minutes is not enough time to cut hair before going to lunch at midday apparently), refused entry to a shop in the Middle East because I was a woman and refused entry to a building in Thailand! Unpleasant experiences every one, but did I make a big fuss about any of them?

And btw, 15 years ago, on nearly every flight I took, I was asked by Emirates staff to change my seat on the aircraft because a local Arab woman onboard didn't want to sit next to a man! Who knows, maybe a ranting feminist wouldn't agree to move?

 

When I said that different  Arab countries have different names for things, the attached is an illustration of names for veils. You will note Shawn, included is the name I used for a veil, "shayla", which you said was wrong! For your information, it is mostly used in the Emirates.

 

K. Armstrong’s “The Battle for God”, published by Harpers Perrenial, explores the rise of fundamentalism in the three main monotheisms (and why we didn’t foresee it) at the same time acknowledging that fundamentalists from other sects, such as Hindus, Buddhists and even Confucians, also exist. It explains why it develops and what it tells us about our own culture. ISBN 0-00-638348.

 

Don't get me started on French laws because the law really is "an ass" here. I live in France, a socialist country I might add, which pays its part-time university teachers 12 months after they've finished their last class. Since a scholastic term is 6 months, that makes 18 months to pay day! You couldn't get away with that in any other European country. So much for basic human rights in France! Hurrah for égalité! 

 

 

I recall you saying, "People who don't live in France, don't know why such stories appear in the French press or know the first thing about the history of the hijaab ban in France - really need to keep their mouths shut until they're better informed."

 

Quite a bullying way you have, and quite poorly informed to boot, you were wrong plain and simple, the hijab is not banned nor is there any suggestion of banning it seeing as it would also see Catholic nuns unable to wear their habits, what is banned is facial coverings, including motorbike helmets.  So, until you know the first thing about this it is you who should keep her mouth shut.

 

Quite amusingly you went on to post a picture of an Afghan police woman with a comment inferring that women in Burqa's were potentially dangerous.

 

You have done really poorly here and unfortunately for you do not have the grace to admit you were wrong and instead choose to squirm and distort facts.

[Shawn0000]

4 minutes ago, Seraphina said:

I did a presentation based on primary research in 1985 at a Dubai Conference entitled, "The changing lifestyles and values of GCC females". I will be giving an update of this survey in Penang, Malaysia in 2017. My final slide says this:

 

 

I'll be giving that one a miss, I am not interested in listening to someone who argues in favor of persecution, thanks.

[Shawn0000]

3 minutes ago, Seraphina said:

For the "righteous" who say, "he broke the law", remember that you break the law every time you go over 70 miles an hour in the UK or whatever the speed limit is where you live. 

 

Yes, every one, next time you see someone being persecuted for their religion, just remember that speeding is a faulty comparison, that should help them loads!

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎10‎.‎09‎.‎2016 at 6:44 PM, Seraphina said:

Actually, I live in France, so I probably saw this story well before you did and read it in the original reporting language.

 

Non-Muslims like yourself cast a great many aspersions about Muslims and what they think, feel and ought to believe in.

 

It's not surprising that some of us try and counteract the ignorance and suggest that NOT ALL things that go wrong in our lives are the result of religious bigotry. And if you read my posting, this is a fuss about nothing. I have been shooed out of shops before, but I didn't complain. I've been discriminated against in Thailand and though it irked me at the time, I didn't make a big song and dance about it.

 

People like to blame others for things that go wrong, but that's just life. Few are litigious. You're very quick to attack someone who tells them they're wrong about the thing they talked about. You sound like a Caucasian male who can’t handle it when an Oriental woman tells him he’s less than adequate. And while you may be called many things by your friends and enemies, erudite’ and ‘well-read’ aren’t among them.

 

 

 

Some of us non Muslims have lived in Sharia countries and don't want any of it in the west. I had to abide by Islamic law when I was in Saudi, Muslims should accept that they have to abide by western mores if they want to live in kuffir countries.

The answer if that is not acceptable is obvious.

[thaibeachlovers]

If anyone wants to know why allowing Muslims to make changes in western societies is a bad idea, just look at the garbage going on in Jakarta where the Christian mayor is being persecuted because the fanatics claim he insulted Islam. I want none of that bigotry where I live.

Muslims accuse us of bigotry and such like, when it is they that are bigoted, as proven in Jakarta.

Enough already.

 

[tropo]

I, like most atheists believe the world would be a better place without religion. If religion helps believers feel better about dying, then that is fine, but for atheists religion is of no use to us.

There's a very religious tone to your convictions. It's just another form of religion.


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[7by7]

On ‎03‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 6:53 AM, Seraphina said:

@shawn000: I hadn't realised that you were both female and Muslim. I, at least, can claim to be both.

5 hours ago, Seraphina said:

And btw, 15 years ago, on nearly every flight I took, I was asked by Emirates staff to change my seat on the aircraft because a local Arab woman onboard didn't want to sit next to a man!

 

 

 So 15 years ago you were frequently moved because a woman didn't want to sit next to you, a man; but you are now a woman. 

 

Kudos, I thought gender realignment is, at best, something frowned upon in the Muslim world and considered by many scholars to be a sin as it is tampering with the way God made you.

 

On ‎03‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 6:53 AM, Seraphina said:

I don't deny that I believe in equal rights for women - indeed, I know few women who support suffrage, 

 

 Only a few? surely as a believer in equal rights for women you must believe in women's suffrage and be doing your best to educate those who don't!

[Grouse]

On 03/12/2016 at 7:53 AM, Seraphina said:

@shawn000: I hadn't realised that you were both female and Muslim. I, at least, can claim to be both.

 

I know for an absolute certainty that I own more books than you on the history of the Arab people, Islam and the trouble with Islam; I also know I've talked to far more Arabs than you because that's the job I'm paid to do, so you need to do a little more research yourself. Get some Arab friends, and no...not the north African 'Arabs'.

 

And if you want to call me a 'feminist', go right ahead. I don't deny that I believe in equal rights for women - indeed, I know few women who support suffrage, so I don't know where this leaves you when it comes to ranting about what you call, 'sexist crap'.

 

I speak three foreign languages including Arabic, and you, what do you speak? Are you even aware that the names for different clothes are called different things in different countries? Do you know what a thobe, a guthra or an agal is? Do you know which gender wears them? No, I didn't think so.

 

I visit this forum only rarely. There are too many men like you on it. Poorly educated and poorly read. I go along with the quote, "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

 

 

 

You certainly hold your own on here, I'll give you that!

 

I used to look upon Muslims with ambivalence, even supportive at the time of the Balkans wars!

 

Sadly, the more I have read and observed, I've become rather anti Muslim. I was once asked why and I provided 30 odd reasons on here.

 

I am exceptionally well travelled and speak several languages so don't try that one. I currently live in a predominantly Muslim village in Thailand. I put up with all the "in your face" fancy dress and customs because this is their home. But doesn't alter the fact that Muslim social mores and customs just turn me off

 

I can tell you honestly that if Muslims in fancy dress came and sat at a restaurant table next to me  I would feel most uncomfortable 

 

In short, if you want to live in Western countries great! But fit in. I really don't want to know what religion you are ?

[7by7]

12 minutes ago, Grouse said:

In short, if you want to live in Western countries great! But fit in. I really don't want to know what religion you are ?

 

Does that also apply to

• Sikh men in turbans with bangles on their wrists,
• Hindus with marks on their foreheads
• Rastafarians with dreadlocks,
• Jewish men in yarmulkes,
• Hasidic Jews; men in long black coats and large hats, women in headscarves and long skirts (some even wear burqas!),
• Mormon men in sober, black suits and ties,
• Christians wearing crucifixes,
• Christian priests in dog collars
• etc., etc.?

I assume that to fit in with the community where your live in Thailand that you, your wife and family dress the same as they do.

[mcfish]

 
I get that, but wrong to take it out on innocents. 

They are not innocent until they admit it's wrong to kill an infidel for drawing a cartoon of their imaginary friend. My ex was Thai Muslim and when I asked she said" don't drawn cartoon! "

They are all the same

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

Does that also apply to

• Sikh men in turbans with bangles on their wrists,
• Hindus with marks on their foreheads
• Rastafarians with dreadlocks,
• Jewish men in yarmulkes,
• Hasidic Jews; men in long black coats and large hats, women in headscarves and long skirts (some even wear burqas!),
• Mormon men in sober, black suits and ties,
• Christians wearing crucifixes,
• Christian priests in dog collars
• etc., etc.?

I assume that to fit in with the community where your live in Thailand that you, your wife and family dress the same as they do.

 

We don't wear ANY religious symbols. My wife and kids are Buddhist, I am a Jehovah's bystander.

 

whydo people broadcast their religion? It is BECAUSE they want to thrust it other people's faces.

[stevenl]

 Only a few? surely as a believer in equal rights for women you must believe in women's suffrage and be doing your best to educate those who don't!

I read that as she (as claimed) was asked to move to sit next to the sole Arab woman traveller in stead of the present male neighbour.

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[7by7]

18 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

In short, if you want to live in Western countries great! But fit in. I really don't want to know what religion you are ?

 

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Does that also apply to

• Sikh men in turbans with bangles on their wrists,
• Hindus with marks on their foreheads
• Rastafarians with dreadlocks,
• Jewish men in yarmulkes,
• Hasidic Jews; men in long black coats and large hats, women in headscarves and long skirts (some even wear burqas!),
• Mormon men in sober, black suits and ties,
• Christians wearing crucifixes,
• Christian priests in dog collars
• etc., etc.?

I assume that to fit in with the community where your live in Thailand that you, your wife and family dress the same as they do.

 

17 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

We don't wear ANY religious symbols. My wife and kids are Buddhist, I am a Jehovah's bystander.

 

whydo people broadcast their religion? It is BECAUSE they want to thrust it other people's faces.

 

I see, you want everyone, regardless of their religion, beliefs and choices,  to dress the way you demand. At least you are consistent.

 

It seems that you also want people to 'fit in'  where they live, even though you are not prepared to do so yourself!

[7by7]

12 hours ago, stevenl said:

I read that as she (as claimed) was asked to move to sit next to the sole Arab woman traveller in stead of the present male neighbour.

Sent from my ROBBY using Thaivisa Connect mobile app
 

 I suppose it could be read either that she, a women, was asked to move next to another woman because the other woman didn't want to sit next to a man, or that he, a man, was asked to move because an Arab woman didn't want to sit next to him.

 

Perhaps English isn't one of the languages she's fluent in.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎03‎.‎12‎.‎2016 at 1:53 PM, Seraphina said:

@shawn000: I hadn't realised that you were both female and Muslim. I, at least, can claim to be both.

 

I know for an absolute certainty that I own more books than you on the history of the Arab people, Islam and the trouble with Islam; I also know I've talked to far more Arabs than you because that's the job I'm paid to do, so you need to do a little more research yourself. Get some Arab friends, and no...not the north African 'Arabs'.

 

And if you want to call me a 'feminist', go right ahead. I don't deny that I believe in equal rights for women - indeed, I know few women who support suffrage, so I don't know where this leaves you when it comes to ranting about what you call, 'sexist crap'.

 

I speak three foreign languages including Arabic, and you, what do you speak? Are you even aware that the names for different clothes are called different things in different countries? Do you know what a thobe, a guthra or an agal is? Do you know which gender wears them? No, I didn't think so.

 

I visit this forum only rarely. There are too many men like you on it. Poorly educated and poorly read. I go along with the quote, "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

 

 

Do you know what a thobe, a guthra or an agal is? Do you know which gender wears them?

I do. I even owned some.

However, it doesn't make me sympathetic to people that pretend that wearing a tent is Islamic, as it certainly isn't.

I lived in Saudi and had no desire to be "friends" with people that thought I shouldn't be allowed to meet their female family members because their culture is so twisted that they think women that associate with non family members are prostitutes.

[ddavidovsky]

17 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

We don't wear ANY religious symbols. My wife and kids are Buddhist, I am a Jehovah's bystander.

 

whydo people broadcast their religion? It is BECAUSE they want to thrust it other people's faces.

 

Agreed. I'm an atheist and I wouldn't wear any kind of outfit that identified me as such (assuming atheists had one) - not even a badge. To do so would be to publicly differentiate myself ideologically and there is some degree of passive-aggression in that.

I only wish religious people showed me the same respect instead of shoving their ideology in my face.

 

Apart from that, I object on grounds of good taste. Can't see any difference between going to a restaurant wearing religious trappings and wearing a Manchester United scarf.

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

Agreed. I'm an atheist and I wouldn't wear any kind of outfit that identified me as such (assuming atheists had one) - not even a badge. To do so would be to publicly differentiate myself ideologically and there is some degree of passive-aggression in that.

I only wish religious people showed me the same respect instead of shoving their ideology in my face.

 

Apart from that, I object on grounds of good taste. Can't see any difference between going to a restaurant wearing religious trappings and wearing a Manchester United scarf.

 

But surely by demanding that those of a religious belief, any religious belief, are banned from wearing religious clothing and symbols for anything other than security or health and safety reasons, you are forcing your atheist beliefs upon them?

 

[Grouse]

42 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

 

I see, you want everyone, regardless of their religion, beliefs and choices,  to dress the way you demand. At least you are consistent.

 

It seems that you also want people to 'fit in'  where they live, even though you are not prepared to do so yourself!

 

Look buddy, read my post.

 

I don't like ANY religious symbols in public. You think a burka is a fashion statement? Don't be so silly

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

But surely by demanding that those of a religious belief, any religious belief, are banned from wearing religious clothing and symbols for anything other than security or health and safety reasons, you are forcing your atheist beliefs upon them?

 

I am not an atheist, but I'd like to see all religious symbols, of every religion banned, at least in countries with separation of state and religion.

Too many people have been killed over the centuries because of religious fairy stories, IMO. If people want to follow their particular fairy story, do so by every means, but don't get in my face with it.

No difference between wearing religious symbols and a swastika, IMO. They are just announcing to the world what people believe in. Religion has probably killed more people than Hitler.

[ddavidovsky]

Just now, 7by7 said:

 

But surely by demanding that those of a religious belief, any religious belief, are banned from wearing religious clothing and symbols for anything other than security or health and safety reasons, you are forcing your atheist beliefs upon them?

 

 

I don't think it's possible force beliefs on anyone. They can believe what they want, but they shouldn't be able to do what they want.

 

It's certainly possible and desirable to enforce appropriate behaviour, and societies do so all the time. When people of other religions and cultures choose to come and cash in on the country that my ancestors built up with tremendous effort over how many centuries, then it's only polite for them not to behave exactly as if it's their own country.

 

Probably that's what this discussion boils down to - the crassness of immigrants.

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

But surely by demanding that those of a religious belief, any religious belief, are banned from wearing religious clothing and symbols for anything other than security or health and safety reasons, you are forcing your atheist beliefs upon them?

 

No

 

You are free to believe what ever you like

 

Just don't shove it in my face

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

No

 

You are free to believe what ever you like

 

Just don't shove it in my face

True. Does any sane person actually believe that "God" cares if anyone wears a tent, or a silly hat?

If "God" invented everything, I would like to assume that s/he is more concerned as to what is in a persons character than what they wear.

Religious symbols are a requirement of the charlatans that exploit the believers.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

No

 

You are free to believe what ever you like

 

Just don't shove it in my face

Maybe churches, synagogues, mosques, ashrams, and wats should be covered in tarps.  It's just lunacy your equating equate seeing something with "shoving it in my face."