Accountancy & Finance Career Advice?

[middlesexMDS]

Hello All,

I'm currently studying CIMA and working in accountancy in the UK. As my wife has family in Bangkok I started to look at the idea of working there, if possible, in the not too distant future.

Does anyone work for an multinational in accountancy & finance and have any advice about how to best go about this? I have read articles on people transfering from the UK with PWC or KPMG to work in Bangkok for a few years but these also seem to be the lucky few.

I'm in Bangkok for a few weeks in January and was hoping to find some sort financial seminar or company event or networking event that I could away along to but no such event seems to ever occur

I intend to learn Thai which I hope is viewed as an asset (as I heard with teaching it isn't?) and hope to start gaining business and financial awareness for the far east and Thailand.

Any advice will be greatfully accepted.

[bendix]

Who do you work for now? If you work for one of the Big Four, then you might get extra lucky and secure yourself a secondment, but I would say those are as rare as hens' teeth and generally are short-term.

If you came over here, you'd have to take pot luck and get yourself a job. 99% of those would be local salary positions in which you would be competing against Thai Nationals; 1% are more geared towards farang, working in multinationals. Obviously those roles are for very experienced professionals. Most weeks sees a couple of roles like that advertised in Bkk Post and there are a couple of recruitment companies (whose names escape me but other posters will know) who seem to specialise in these more senior roles.

I know a guy who worked for PWC, Accenture and then a big law firm as their Finance Director. He came here for a lifestyle change 8 months ago; he landed a 200,000baht plus job using his financial skills within 3 weeks of being here, so it is possible.

[steveromagnino]

Further to Bendix's comments, I'd say there is a chance to work here in senior accounting/finance roles, but only at a reasonably senior level or a very junior semi-internship level.

The middle rungs are full up; and in my experience there are plenty of perfectly capable people in finance/accounting available locally; so adding value as a foreigner will usually take the form of working for some MNE that wants 'one of their guys' there sorting things. Alternatively, in a JV with a local partner, they may want someone that is seen as a little more impartial than someone recommended by the local partner. Or perhaps, you bring expertise to the table that they cannot find at the time locally. Always possible. particularly, if you have specific industry experience that is hard to get here, then even some local companies or listed companies might have a use for you.

e.g. Pepsi/Fritolay the CFO there is a foreigner (I think that is what the guy I know does); earns a salary that would dwarf the 200k mentioned earlier; because that company wants a guy who can fly around regionally, talk about hitting home runs and taking things offline etc; he is 'one of the Americans' and for many MNEs the ability to talk the same language is very important. He is also extremely good at his job, and there are probably few Thais as capable as he is at that level that would want to work selling flavoured water and greasy fatty bits of potato :-) Incidentally, for CFOs and financial controllers (Thai) working in large MNEs, the pay scale difference is not so great either; at a senior level there are plenty of Thais working on decent money too.

However, at a mid level, you will struggle to find work, as it is probably more work for the people around you to have to speak english the whole time, and more work for the company arranging work permits and so on, and you may not be any better at the job than a local. Worth applying though; stranger things have happened. It might also be mindnumbingly boring.

Speaking Thai in my view is a massive asset. Anyone that tells you about any job where it is a liability, even english teaching, is talking nonsense. There is so much conversation outside of the formal meetings and presentations where you will struggle to participate in a meaningful way if you don't speak Thai at least to some level; even in an organisation where everyone speaks perfectly good english. Without the Thai, for instance, here at my major client's site, the jokes, the camaradary and smoe fairly important cultural shows of respect would just be lost; even though most of our daily work stuff can be done in english the whole time (almost everyone in the office here is foreign educated). The one foreigner in a senior position (not me) has had to work twice as hard to build friendships and meaningful relationships with his staff, because a fair chunk of the time he is either behaving in a way that they don't understand; saying something that is simply not likely to be said in Thai, or not joining in for the jokes and the fun bits.

It doesn't take much; but a little goes a long way. The only reason I have my current job is because I bring to the table some foreign knowledge; I think outside the box as a result; I have a good handle on trendy sayings and can look the part of the foreign talent BUT I also have the local knowledge of how to behalve; I can be trusted to talk to all customers and not speak out of turn plus my bosses like me - there is no way I could do the latter parts without at least some Thai ability (other consultants around here have discovered that).

No doubt there are some organisations where it is totally unneeded; especially Goldman Sachs/McKinsey type organisations full of Ivy league educated people; however whenever I meet these sorts of people we are still talking Thai, and the language lends itself to building relationships more easily in some ways that english (on the flip side I think the langage sometimes makes getting things done punctually harder than english, due to lack of precision and need to the whole feel good relationship side).

Having said all this I'd say if you are in a relationship with a Thai person, knowing Thai and the way the language is spoken would be mandatory anyway; for a career it isn't going to open the door for you much (unless you can really speak Thai) but it will certainly make life easier once you start.

Have you thought about getting here in a series of steps? I know if used to be the case that HK and Singapore were using a lot of foreign accountants/auditors/consultants; perhaps that is halfway here, then would make it easier to understand working in Asia and a smaller step to Thailand?

For developing countries, I'll give you a piece of advice. Generalists do better than extreme experts for the most part.

Get in touch with some local headhunters (I know PW has a division in that area) and work on building a solid CV; then let us know how it goes! Best of luck.

Edited November 24, 2006 by steveromagnino

[bendix]

yeah, that's what I was going to say too . . . . .

[steveromagnino]

yeah, that's what I was going to say too . . . . .

oi!

I hadn't finished!

the end.

ok...finished now.

One things to add; in general the reason why there are so many successful Australians, New Zealanders and Scandanavians working here is they tend to be generalists. many of these same people would do markedly less well in say USA/UK IMHO for the reason that in those countries, the skills required tend to be very specalist, sometimes with a team fo 30 working on organisation strategy and planning. By comparison, a typical NZ firm would have one person working on strategy combined with making a few cups of coffee, talking to customers and also doing the photocopying.

Developing countries tend to have a need for one skill, and you may be hired for that, but at the end of the day they will need someone who can do considerably more than that one skill (other than a few isolated examples, which seem to reduce even further when I talk to people in that industry, including the legal profession, where even there the foreign lawyers, according to Bendix, tend to be somewhat generalist, although holding one particular in depth area of expertise as well sometimes.)

Therefore... sort out a good solid set of general skills in a particular industry, or sort out a solid single area of expertise but not at the exclusion of some other skills, and you might find yourself enjoying it out here. For every prominent elitest complaining farang on this board who swears they are about to start the mass exodus of farangs out of Thailand unable to cope with the rampant racism, closing times and ineptness of all Thai people, there are probably 10 just quietly getting on with it, and enjoying almost every minute.

Good luck once again.

[bendix]

Finished now?

[MiG16]

others have given very lengthy advice already, so I will just try to name some headhunters

Grant Thorton (apart from PWC) does a lot of headhunting in the financial /accountancy area.

good luck

[p_brownstone]

The OP says he's "currently studying CIMA and working in accountancy" from which I infer that he's young and as yet has no Senior Management experience - let alone professional qualifications.

I very much doubt that a young, non Thai speaking / reading Farang could get an Accountancy position here.

Patrick

[PeaceBlondie]

The OP says he's "currently studying CIMA and working in accountancy" from which I infer that he's young and as yet has no Senior Management experience - let alone professional qualifications.

I very much doubt that a young, non Thai speaking / reading Farang could get an Accountancy position here.

Patrick

...Yeah, just what I was going to say...

Original poster middlesex, could you give us a bit more of your accountancy qualifications?

I think the advice to date has been for holders of BBA, M.Acc., MBA, ten years in higher management, etc.

[lanny]

Being an accountant myself, I would say there are few opportunities in Thailand. At most levels, any accountant here will be dealing with Thai staff, documents written in Thai, records kept in the Thai language, Thai accounting practices and principals, and Thai tax law. Thai universities graduate large numbers of accounting students to fill positions in accounting departments. There simply is no place for a farang in the accounting department.

That said, an experienced accounting manager may be able to find a position at a senior lever. Many international companies want a farang to oversee the reporting by local affiliates. However, even those positions are hard to obtain because they are often filled by transferring in someone from the home office or another branch.

An accounting background might be useful in many marketing positions, however. For example, much software is related to accounting functions and the marketing staff needs the appropriate training.

[middlesexMDS]

Hi, Thanks for the honest opinions, sounds like its going to very hard or take a very long time.

With regards to earlier Q's; I guess you could say I youngish - 27yrs. In terms of other details I have a B average BSc in Mathematics with Business Studies from a 'good' London Uni, though am only half way through CIMA. In terms of work experience I've 4yrs within the public sector for a London Council, working in payables ledger than management accounts now systems accounting.

Some guy I read about from PWC who transferred to Bangkok from Reading worked in dealing with in the differences in Thai GAAP and IFRS/IAS's, this isn't too specialist so I see how this was possible. It's partly a shame Thailand is so protective of professional areas, I guess coming from the UK where we give foreigners advantages sometimes I feel I have an even bigger gap to cross.

So luck via a big company or come back in 15-20 yrs with significant experience at high level matters seems to be the only avenues!??

What the western community like, in particular the Brits like in Bnagkok, anyone know any accountants or finance people??

[steveromagnino]

It's partly a shame Thailand is so protective of professional areas, I guess coming from the UK where we give foreigners advantages sometimes I feel I have an even bigger gap to cross.

So luck via a big company or come back in 15-20 yrs with significant experience at high level matters seems to be the only avenues!??

What the western community like, in particular the Brits like in Bnagkok, anyone know any accountants or finance people??

What you perceive as 'protectionism' I perceive as pragmatic; in my experience a few foreigners can do a really good job here, some are ok, but some are very expensive show ponies who do no better job than locals but cost more to hire and reduce efficiency around them due to bad understanding of handling customers/clients/staff in a 'Thai way'; difficulty in reading documentation; difficulty in communicating effectively (sometimes, you have to speak Thai to communicate with certain levels of staff) and inappropriate behaviour (showing up to company functions with women who appear to be out of Nana plaza, wearing fake copy clothes and not respecting the people they are meeting as a result, poor hygiene, making snide comments and looking down on their staff as a result of them being Thai etc etc - all the usual foreigner mistakes).

In accounting in particular, without being excessively harsh, I think you'll find it is a career that is very low on entreprenuership/thinking outside the box and very high on following procedures and being rigorous; two things that many Thais (particularly women) seem to be very strong at. Only when getting to a senior level do the usual advantages of coming from a more developed country (free thinking, problem solving, etc) become useful. And that's why you see plenty of senior fund managers, CFOs and so on that are non Thai. At that level, they are worth the money (and incidentally, at that level, Thais are able to work abroad, so compensation even for Thai nationals is starting to get up there).

You could consider teaching accounting at a private university, but you'll need a bit more than the qualifications you have. You could also consider setting up a business, or exploring a career outside of accounting I guess. But if straight accounting, then I think the chances are possible, but slim to come out here, as without more experience/qualifications, you don't yet bring enough to the table. But a decent degree from a decent university would certainly open some doors.

You'd be much more likely to get a job in finance as an analyst than in accounting; I just had a friend start doing work for one of the big finance houses out here; American, good solid work experience a fraction older than you, his skill set to analyse and recommend is something sought after here. That's key.

[middlesexMDS]

An analyst role would be very suitable as my degree was statistical and analysis based. Anyone have any comments or advice on that career path??

[steveromagnino]

An analyst role would be very suitable as my degree was statistical and analysis based. Anyone have any comments or advice on that career path??

Interesting job; higher pressure and far more academically interesting than accounting (I was an audit intern, and siwtched to a finance double major). Mind you, financial accounting/auditing does tend to have more hot chicks, because it is something for people without much initiative to do, and for whatever reason, this seems to attract (at least in my encounters with them) the 'pretty people who are quite dumb, but will look nice in front of a client'. Ah....those were the days; I even used to have a scholarship from one of those big accounting firms; ok, here is how dumb they are; they paid for me to go to university; I decided not to study accounting, then persuaded them I was too stupid to be an accountant for them, so they let me switch to finance and marketing without ever paying them back!

Finance people tend to make me feel stupid and worried to say something dumb; never have that problem with audit firms, who can be relied on to open their mouths and remove all doubt as to who has no clue about actually running something. Of course there are many smart ones, and those end up going to a senior level, but a ton that are just...for want of a better word..... frigging useless.

That said, senior management accounting is pretty cool; in some ways a bit of a bridge between the finance and accounting worlds; and actually those guys tend to be hot poo, rather than cold urine.

To get into analysis, need to have sound knowledge of balance sheets, corporate financing, building models, that sort of thing. ALWAYS be brave enough to go and talk to people in the field; if I was wanting to go into that field, I'd just ring up CitiGroup, Kim Eng or whoever is some big IB/Broker/Securities House type operation wherever you are, and offer someone lunch to tell you about what they do.

Most people don't want to be analysts, so the head of analysis will probably be so happy that you actually are interested in what they do.

And what they do, is to understand what drives a business, then turn that into a financial model. Far better and more useful than auditing or bean counting IMHO, but no doubt some accountant will put 2 billable minutes into writing some pithy reply about why they are so cool and that they rock and that they are hot like Paris Hilton.

To that I have 1 word. Porn.

As an accountant, there is no way you'll be surfing the information superhighway on client time to look at stick pics. But as a finance guy, especially in analysis, there is every chance you'll be looking to value the Private pornography empire, giving you ample opportunities to explore every hole of every model of every magazine. A famous financier once said when working on the private equity deal that purchased the strip club empire in UK, Stringfellows I think, when the accountant showed up while he was closing the deal so to speak:

'of all the holes in all the whores, this bean counter had to show up in mine'[

I think of those as fitting words.

Think of all the Thai family businesses; there will be more and more looking for investment; there will be continued deregulation of the markets; analyst type role in a securities house gives you a solid bakground to value and do deals, in a way that accounting does not IMHO.

You need finance degree most likely like an MFA, or some sort of diploma; accounting degree might get you by, but talk to some people in the field, and they can set you right.