Seven year old's father goes to police to report beating of his son

[katana]

Here's the CCTV. Hope it's alright to post this here. Warning. Contains graphic scenes. You can see the small kid in white run away like he knows what's coming before the father even enters the scene. Wonder if he had seen this kind of behaviour before and knew what was coming.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by katana

[seahorse]

38 minutes ago, katana said:

Here's the CCTV. Hope it's alright to post this here. Warning. Contains graphic scenes. You can see the small kid in white run away like he knows what's coming before the father even enters the scene. Wonder if he had seen this kind of behaviour before and knew what was coming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for posting the video. I hadn't seen it anywhere else. It's despicable behaviour. The boy in red is clearly comforting the son. The little boy in white even held his hands up to his head as if he knew what the father was going to do.

[dorayme]

Right on JVS! Two wrongs don't make one right.

 

What kind of man would do that to a child?

[chainarong]

I think that the father should have got a couple of the lads and gone around and had a little serious chat with the prick, if the police were more active in their duty than just pretending, then I would have gone to the police, however justice in Thailand is Hi So territory .............................................................

[oldlakey]

17 hours ago, MikeyIdea said:

16 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

If this is justice it stinks and is wrong on so many levels. Just because it is law or the Thai way doesn't justify credence. I am sure any decent human being Thai, Western or anyone would find the actions of the man disturbing and the way the handling of it just as disturbing.

 

Did you just arrive at suvarnabhumi airport yesterday or are you as green and wet behind the ears as you appear

Oh dear this is Thailand my son you left Kansas behind with Dorothy 

I think you need to adjust or maybe try Canada 555555555

[MikeyIdea]

There are a few things that I challenge in your post Dexlowe  Friendly nudge only, OK?

 

16 hours ago, Dexlowe said:

And that also should be the father's priority - the police should not be sidetracking him

 

I think that you are wrong about "And that also should be the father's priority"

 

I'll give another sample. I always thought that teenagers who got raped must press charges before I had one myself. I actually think my daughter's best is more important than punish the victim now. I don't care if all westerners think I am wrong but I would ask her what she wants

 

And about "the police should not be sidetracking him"

The police can't stop the father. They can legally want a negotiation first, that is all. Many westerners think that that only the police can press changes because that's how it is in their home country but both the victim and the police can press criminal charges here. And why should the police not want a negotiation first? It gives the victim a chance to think through if perhaps compensation is a better choice than putting the offender in jail now when he can't work and support his children any longer - just another stronger sample why negotiation before or instead of criminal charges is not only bad. If the victim still prefers criminal charges, then they are processed

 

17 hours ago, Dexlowe said:

But what we have in these cases is a seemingly callous demand for money facilitated by the police whose function is to bring justice to the victim

 

Yes, the police function is to bring justice to the victim. There are 2 ways to see that: The western system first of all protects society, and secondly the victim - Don't get me wrong, there is of course much good in that. The Thai system put the victim in the centre more (as often is in under-developed and developing countries) for 2 reasons 1) Mutual agreement and it is more likely that hostilities end and 2) The victim can benefit more from compensation than seeing the offender in jail. Thailand would benefit more from the Western approach, yes, but many Thai's actually don't want to change what they have now

 

18 hours ago, Dexlowe said:

There are also govt agencies and various social groups available for him to tap into, either now or later

 

Yes, there are government agencies and social groups also in Thailand but there is zero money. There is only spending money to contact them and what you get is advice. The daughter of the victim still can't go to school because he can't work and buy a school uniform for her - just another stronger sample

 

18 hours ago, Dexlowe said:

This was attempted murder of a child

 

Manslaughter, not murder. He didn't plan to go down the stairs and kill the kid beforehand

 

Everything in society / life is there for a reason, not because of stupidity, everything links together

 

There is one thing that I really dislike in the Thai culture and that is how much the apology means, it doesn't mean anything in something as strong as this case though.

 

Imagine the roi ween policeman dealing with this case. He is smart, he is a good leader type, he has a law degree, he has kids of his own so he is angry too and he knows that he can force this to court and the guy will be sentenced to 6 months to 10 years if he wants - and he knows that court certainly won't be lenient

 

He doesn't want to stop this if the father wants to press on. The "Police stopping justice - only wants money" thingie in a case like this simply doesn't exist. It is pure fiction

 

[cardinalblue]

The victim's father prepared to accept an apology? Again, another endorsement of lack of accountability.

 

Are Thai men really men? Time it grow a pair....

[MikeyIdea]

2 minutes ago, cardinalblue said:

The victim's father prepared to accept an apology? Again, another endorsement of lack of accountability.

 

Are Thai men really men? Time it grow a pair....

 

Perhaps you think that a Thai could accept an apology because that is a possible solution in your home country. It would certainly not happen here

 

You didn't read properly, Please read again

 

[tattoodrob]

9 hours ago, MikeyIdea said:

There are a few things that I challenge in your post Dexlowe  Friendly nudge only, OK?

 

 

I think that you are wrong about "And that also should be the father's priority"

 

I'll give another sample. I always thought that teenagers who got raped must press charges before I had one myself. I actually think my daughter's best is more important than punish the victim now. I don't care if all westerners think I am wrong but I would ask her what she wants

 

And about "the police should not be sidetracking him"

The police can't stop the father. They can legally want a negotiation first, that is all. Many westerners think that that only the police can press changes because that's how it is in their home country but both the victim and the police can press criminal charges here. And why should the police not want a negotiation first? It gives the victim a chance to think through if perhaps compensation is a better choice than putting the offender in jail now when he can't work and support his children any longer - just another stronger sample why negotiation before or instead of criminal charges is not only bad. If the victim still prefers criminal charges, then they are processed

 

 

Yes, the police function is to bring justice to the victim. There are 2 ways to see that: The western system first of all protects society, and secondly the victim - Don't get me wrong, there is of course much good in that. The Thai system put the victim in the centre more (as often is in under-developed and developing countries) for 2 reasons 1) Mutual agreement and it is more likely that hostilities end and 2) The victim can benefit more from compensation than seeing the offender in jail. Thailand would benefit more from the Western approach, yes, but many Thai's actually don't want to change what they have now

 

 

Yes, there are government agencies and social groups also in Thailand but there is zero money. There is only spending money to contact them and what you get is advice. The daughter of the victim still can't go to school because he can't work and buy a school uniform for her - just another stronger sample

 

 

Manslaughter, not murder. He didn't plan to go down the stairs and kill the kid beforehand

 

Everything in society / life is there for a reason, not because of stupidity, everything links together

 

There is one thing that I really dislike in the Thai culture and that is how much the apology means, it doesn't mean anything in something as strong as this case though.

 

Imagine the roi ween policeman dealing with this case. He is smart, he is a good leader type, he has a law degree, he has kids of his own so he is angry too and he knows that he can force this to court and the guy will be sentenced to 6 months to 10 years if he wants - and he knows that court certainly won't be lenient

 

He doesn't want to stop this if the father wants to press on. The "Police stopping justice - only wants money" thingie in a case like this simply doesn't exist. It is pure fiction

 

So lets say that the compensation negotiated by the police was he has to give the victim  200k baht (for an example sake only) and he hasnt got 2 beans to rub together ? so cant pay them anything! then what?

I think in a serious case like this then Police should prosecute no matter what and if Father decides not to then is his choice but police should be showing its not acceptable behaviour,the guy should get jail time and pay compensation (if possible).......what about the Agressor Dad..how you think he treats his own children if he is ok to do that to others for nothing,he doesnt deserve to be a Father and how his kids will grow up seeing and receiving such violence anyway.......they will do the same hence many Thai boys already behave like that and so where the cycle will stop? I would guess thats not the first time he has has acted like this to the children in his block but possibly the first he has been caught on camera.

I think most Thais do not like to go to the police or report many incidents to the police as usually everyone ends up getting no real justice hence they either put up with it or sort it out themselves like old style societies of hundreds of years ago,most people in all societies are generally glad to have a police force to go to,im not sure that is the case here........Thai know for the police to help then have to pay them ,no debate.....they are not a free service like in most countries,there is a reason they are known as the mafia.

You think the police would not get any money in this case,maybe not a lot due to no one involved having a lot  of money but i think will do ok for themselves if the father accepts this route.

As to your example of a teenage rape victim making/choosing a good decision in what happens to the rapist then yes and no,firstly they are a teenager and also just been violated so maybe cannot make a good decision especially if in shock or very recent so Police should prosecute to save the other women in society even if the rape victim doesnt want that and same in this kids case........of course its not nice to have to go to court and face the rapist again but in all crimes then im sure nobody likes to see the perp again ever.

This Perp does not deserve to live with the rest of society as has no morals at all and is prepared to do whatever he wants to get the desired result he wants,his kids are better off in the long run without him no matter what they think right now..i hope the mother is at least a  half decent person. Im sure the kids in his area will also feel a lot safer if he was locked up even if the Dad of the victim doesnt think so. The perp is a danger to society? or is that negotiable????

I wonder why the police like to call people in when some serious offence happens instead of actually going and getting them,does make them look like lazy bar stards....also gives the perp time to leg it!.......doesnt give the public much faith in them.That kid could have died,does anyone care?

[MikeyIdea]

Hi Tattoodrob

 

I really don't know how to get the through to people who have no first hand experience and do not understand how the system really works. I don't mean to be impolite and I certainly don't mean only you in any way. I am more thinking of those who don't want to have their preconceived opinion shattered regardless of how obvious or ridiculous what they write is

 

There are several understandings in your post above that are coloured by your preconceived opinion. Some if it definitely also has truth in it of course. I find one lack of understanding directly in your first sentence. I'll answer that one now and then I will go to bed. I think that you will see that things don't quite work the way you think

 

4 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

So lets say that the compensation negotiated by the police was he has to give the victim  200k baht (for an example sake only) and he hasnt got 2 beans to rub together ? so cant pay them anything! then what?

 

OK, and the answer is

 

4 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

Imagine the roi ween policeman dealing with this case. He is smart, he is a good leader type, he has a law degree, he has kids of his own so he is angry too and he knows that he can force this to court and the guy will be sentenced to 6 months to 10 years if he wants - and he knows that court certainly won't be lenient

 

Please read carefully. The policeman leading the negotiation (roiween) is a smart, strong leader type father with a law degree who also has seen the video numerous times. He is of course disgusted of what happened and he is angry too. He has exactly the same feelings that we have. Do we agree?

 

I must point this out first: Roiween is not the dark skinned low level policeman on a motorcycle that most westerners think of. Roiween is a university educated smart white skinned policeman 

 

The answer to your first sentence is very easy: 

Put yourself in the policeman's shoes, what are his feelings? You can answer yourself: He would never allow that to happen, he would feel ashamed of himself if he did just like I and you would. His job <at that stage> is to advise and help the father. If the father needs compensation, then the policeman is certainly in the mood to help him to put pressure on the offender, and if the offender (and his relatives of course) can provide what the father thinks is an acceptable amount of money within the statute time limit, then there can be a negotiated solution, otherwise not

 

If there can be no negotiated solution, then the policeman's job <at that stage> is to help the father to press charges. He is happy to do that, being a father himself. 

 

Both the father and the police can press charges in Thailand. It's even possible that the victim needs and asks for money but the offender and his relatives don't have enough to kill the case. The father gets some money and doesn't press charges but the police still push the offence to the district attorney. The policeman himself would then be called to court and he will say the truth. The offender paid some money to compensate the victim. The judges decide how that will affect sentencing

 

The process is strange for westerners but it helps to keep a few things in mind

1) It does not have a bad intent

2) It puts the victim in focus, not society

3) There is flesh and blood and common sense involved

 

It's quite likely that this case now has so much publicity that it won't be killed regardless of if the offender pays the father satisfactory. Grievous bodily harm gives between 6 months and 10 years in jail. This crime is so horrible in the eyes of the Thai's that it would give several years jail time if no money is paid for sure. I have no idea what it would give if the offender and his relatives do what they can to compensate the victim

 

I dislike how deeply rooted the apology is in Thai culture, how Thai's many times expect everything is fine because they didn't mean it and apologised, how it affects punishments and also how willing policemen are to process if an incident was not intentional and the person apologised.

 

There is a big difference between not intentional and intentional, most foreigners don't know that This case is - very - intentional

 

Now sleep :)

 

Good Night, sweet  dreams

Mikey

Edited October 7, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[Prbkk]

The willingness of the victim's father to accept an apology is entirely irrelevant. He may well have his own reasons for adopting that view but the community gets to have a say in these matters as well : and one suspects that the vast majority of people would want this psycho thug off the streets and out of stairwells for a very long time....10 years at least.

[MikeyIdea]

49 minutes ago, Prbkk said:

The willingness of the victim's father to accept an apology is entirely irrelevant. He may well have his own reasons for adopting that view but the community gets to have a say in these matters as well : and one suspects that the vast majority of people would want this psycho thug off the streets and out of stairwells for a very long time....10 years at least.

Would you still think that it is more important to punish the victim also if you couldn't work and support your children after an incident and they would have to stop school and go to work at the age of 12? Your choice would, in the eye of the Thai's, show a somewhat cold attitude toward your children

 

But, westerners generally think that Thai's can't think clearly so it's probably a warm attitude

 

What you suggest works fine in a developed country, this is a developing country. It will work here when Thailand has the well working social security network of a developed country

 

Until then, what should a father do?

 

We will have to agree to disagree I think 

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

Prbkk - I should also add that I will be happy that I can have the same opinion as you do once Thailand has a well working social security network. It is fact that it just doesn't have it yet and I have therefore had to adjust my original western view

 

[Prbkk]

52 minutes ago, MikeyIdea said:

Prbkk - I should also add that I will be happy that I can have the same opinion as you do once Thailand has a well working social security network. It is fact that it just doesn't have it yet and I have therefore had to adjust my original western view

 

 

It's a question of the lesser of 2 evils. Agree there are no winners but the higher priority is to get nutters like this one off the streets: those actions are not a one-off loss of control under extreme circumstances. A bit of digging and observation ( eg the little boy scampering off quick smart) would uncover a pattern of behaviour of a similar nature. Almost guarenteed. I'd bet money that he has form and a history.

The opinions of the victim's father are inconsequential.

[MikeyIdea]

10 hours ago, Prbkk said:

 

It's a question of the lesser of 2 evils. Agree there are no winners but the higher priority is to get nutters like this one off the streets: those actions are not a one-off loss of control under extreme circumstances. A bit of digging and observation ( eg the little boy scampering off quick smart) would uncover a pattern of behaviour of a similar nature. Almost guarenteed. I'd bet money that he has form and a history.

The opinions of the victim's father are inconsequential.

 

What I want to emphasise in this post is the understanding that there is no difference in why the western and the Thai systems are implemented  

 

The western system is implemented the way it is to help the poor who cannot support or help themselves

The Thai system is implemented the way it is to help the poor who cannot support or help themselves

 

They try to do the same thing in very different ways though and to very different cost

 

The sample I took and you answered on is about a 12 year old child. I am less honourable than you. If I were poor, then I would not doom my child to a future where education ends at 12, I'd take the money

 

You  state that the opinion of the victims father is inconsequential so if you answered based on my sample and not something else, then you would I presume sacrifice the future of your child to support society. You would definitely be more honourable than I am if you follow through with that

 

Can we have more opinions on this? NongKhai, you liked the post so what would you choose to do?

 

The system is built the way it is to help the poor who cannot support or help themselves and this sample is about that specific case so don't come with workarounds that don't exist in reality please

 

What would you westerners out there choose?

 

 

Edited October 8, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

10 hours ago, Prbkk said:

A bit of digging and observation ( eg the little boy scampering off quick smart) would uncover a pattern of behaviour of a similar nature. Almost guarenteed. I'd bet money that he has form and a history

 

Yes I believe you are absolutely right. The police would investigate that and come to exactly the same conclusion

 

They would consider and act on that. It is not that it is not acted on because a different approach to the solution

 

Edited October 8, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[Artisi]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 4:55 PM, seahorse said:

 

Thank you for posting the video. I hadn't seen it anywhere else. It's despicable behaviour. The boy in red is clearly comforting the son. The little boy in white even held his hands up to his head as if he knew what the father was going to do.

Well now after watching the video - something I refrained from doing initially, it only reinforces the belief that this scum bag a*sehole needs a good lesson in life -  like 2 broken legs but not at the same time and that's just for starters. 

[MikeyIdea]

19 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

think in a serious case like this then Police should prosecute no matter what and if Father decides not to then is his choice but police should be showing its not acceptable behaviour,the guy should get jail time and pay compensation (if possible).......

 

The police can and may prosecute also if the offender pays in this case. The police would then be called to court and he would witness  what extra the offender has tried to do. The court will decide how that affects the sentencing

 

19 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

what about the Agressor Dad..how you think he treats his own children if he is ok to do that to others for nothing,he doesnt deserve to be a Father and how his kids will grow up seeing and receiving such violence anyway.......they will do the same hence many Thai boys already behave like that and so where the cycle will stop? I would guess thats not the first time he has has acted like this to the children in his block but possibly the first he has been caught on camer

 

All probably badly of course and agree that his kids will be affected by growing op seeing such violence and the rest you say. I still fail to see how perhaps taking away the only income the child has for several years would help the child.  If there are good options and it is a disgusting crime like this one, then the police would be happy to play both his cards at hand. The one doesn't automatically exclude the other

 

Another problem the policeman considers is the offenders child. The mother can go to court and she can get free help. Court will be happy to order sole custody to the mother - except that she probably already has it - order that the offender must pay alimony - except that they only have a way to enforce it if the offender has a formal job - and that he must not come near the child - That they would enforce with an arrest warrant if need be. 

 

There is not much benefit in any of it for that child either

 

19 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

I think most Thais do not like to go to the police or report many incidents to the police as usually everyone ends up getting no real justice hence they either put up with it or sort it out themselves like old style societies of hundreds of years ago,most people in all societies are generally glad to have a police force to go to,im not sure that is the case here........

 

I don't mean you here: It is amazing how many westerners posting on ThaiVisa who don't know the difference between civil and criminal law and that the police have no authority to intervene in civil matters and even break the law if they do. Still, westerners are university law professors compared to most Thai's  I have never met any nationality on this earth that has lower knowledge in this area.

 

Part of what you describe is due to that it's a case where the police either have no authority to act or no evidence.  - I told you that he hit me, arrest him!  - You must provide evidence.  - I just did, I told you he hit me...  Police cannot legally act without evidence and uneducated Thai's are just about the most ignorant people in the world when it comes to understanding what evidence is and the importance of it

 

19 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

Thai know for the police to help then have to pay them ,no debate.....they are not a free service like in most countries,there is a reason they are known as the mafia.

 

That is not the opinion of the Thai's I have worked with at the office for 25 years. They are concerned if they have enough evidence in the first place, irritated with the time they have to waste, including possibly deliberate delays if the police thinks it is disputable, but they do not worry about money if they have a case

 

19 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

You think the police would not get any money in this case,maybe not a lot due to no one involved having a lot  of money but i think will do ok for themselves if the father accepts this route.

 

I do think that the police would get money in this case, what I am saying is that it would all have happened to the benefit of the father and the child also if they did not. It is certainly not - I won't do it or - I won't press changes without money

 

19 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

Im sure the kids in his area will also feel a lot safer if he was locked up even if the Dad of the victim doesnt think so. The perp is a danger to society? or is that negotiable????

 

I don't know how to make you think outside your preconceived line of thinking, I really don't. I want to put it in bold and large fonts: You must have problems understanding if you think that the father doesn't think that everybody in the neighbourhood would feel safer if the guy is locked up for 3-4 years. Of course he does. Of course he thinks all you write, so do I, so does the police. He also needs something more that there is no social network here that can give

 

We will probably see that the father refuses money and forces this to court

 

The police will check this gut up after, they won't just walk away. I't not organised by schedule, they'll lose him if he moves away... It's not as good as it would have been in the west of course. 

 

We are not in a developed country. I dislike westerners who think that Thai's are stupid if they don't act as if this was a western country

 

I don't think Thai's should as if this was a western country and sod the consequences

 

Edited October 8, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[Wilsonandson]

 
I don't know how to make you think outside your preconceived line of thinking, I really don't. I want to put it in bold and large fonts: You must have problems understanding if you think that the father doesn't think that everybody in the neighbourhood would feel safer if the guy is locked up for 3-4 years. Of course he does. Of course he thinks all you write, so do I, so does the police. He also needs something more that there is no social network here that can give
 
We will probably see that the father refuses money and forces this to court
 
The police will check this gut up after, they won't just walk away. I't not organised by schedule, they'll lose him if he moves away... It's not as good as it would have been in the west of course. 
 
We are not in a developed country. I dislike westerners who think that Thai's are stupid if they don't act as if this was a western country
 
I don't think Thai's should as if this was a western country and sod the consequences
 

Lock the b@stard up and throw away the key. End of story.

[MikeyIdea]

15 minutes ago, Wilsonandson said:

Lock the b@stard up and throw away the key. End of story.

 

End of story for what? Do you mean end of story for your own children if you are the victim or the offender? 

 

It really wasn't to be rude that I wrote preconceived line of thinking. It could be a valid question in a developing country but not where you come from of course I know.

 

[tattoodrob]

MikeyIdea............do we know if this guy has a job? if he does do we know how much he earns?  what do you think he contributes to his children,from his actions then i guess he not really a caring compassionate guy and so probably doesnt spend much of his earnings on his children if he does have a job...maybe the wife works and he just drinks and smokes all her earnings???

 

The family may actually be better off with this scumbag in prison but the point is that whether he is rich/poor ,employed or not then he is a danger to his kids and those around him...that should be first priority is it not?? ......yes will be sad if he is the only bread winner and contributes a lot (which i doubt) but im sure the kids will still be fed and grow up better for that ar#ole not being there......that may be a western view to you but we must agree to disagree.......yes i know Thai operates differently to the west but i dont think you have the views of the poor Thai people either.

 

Your office Thais may be a bit different to the really poor but im pretty sure most  Thais dont go to the police for many criminal matters because they are corrupt and not because they dont understand that they dont have the evidence the police need etc.....i think when anyone goes to the police then not much action is taken until police have weighed up what is in it for them and so if nothing then a report is made and nothing much else.....evidence or no evidence etc  they dont do much investigating so they dont bother to go in the first place...............and  of course in civil action then they need a good lawyer which the poor cant afford plus they also know from experience that courts are very slow and results are not very good.....and we already see from many reports that punishments in Thailand rarely reflect the offence committed especially in criminal cases.

There are many reports of quite serious offences resulting in just small fines,maybe they not considered serious here where they would in my western world so maybe thats my problem and i should understand this is the Thai way and not the western way so should keep my preconceived ideas out of it.

If you think that this white skinned intelligent legal trained guy (roiween) is contacted in every case to clear it then i beg to differ as i would think hes hardly used otherwise would need 1000's of them and then is less money for the regular RTP........sorry for the sudden change of writing style but accidently pressed something and it changed!!

Anyway you say they all think the same way as us but just do it differently then i dont think they do think the same way as us as the father of the victim saying wants an apology is not what any westerner would think after such an incident........that father should want him taken care of in the worst way he can think of and tell all and maybe even get angry a bit??......&lt;deleted&gt; the apology!!!

We live in a different society now (Thailand) and know it operates differently but i think is because they do think differently to us in such matters as this and have different priorities to us and to be honest i think most Thai are too money motivated but in a seriously bad way but lets not get onto that!!

"I really don't know how to get the through to people who have no first hand experience and do not understand how the system really works. I don't mean to be impolite and I certainly don't mean only you in any way "

By the way i do have a few first hand experiences with Police and civil court actions myself(and from other peoples experiences too) and so without going into details the police may have procedures but dont always stick to them and courts are very slow and waste of time generally and ive never seen or heard of this Roiween at any time!...maybe if police did not want money then maybe i would have seen this Roiween or is for thai and thai only and called in by who?you seem to know about this?

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2016 by tattoodrob
added extra

[MikeyIdea]

 

 

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:47 PM, tattoodrob said:

MikeyIdea............do we know if this guy has a job? if he does do we know how much he earns?  what do you think he contributes to his children,from his actions then i guess he not really a caring compassionate guy and so probably doesnt spend much of his earnings on his children if he does have a job...maybe the wife works and he just drinks and smokes all her earnings???

 

The family may actually be better off with this scumbag in prison but the point is that whether he is rich/poor ,employed or not then he is a danger to his kids and those around him...that should be first priority is it not?? ......yes will be sad if he is the only bread winner and contributes a lot (which i doubt) but im sure the kids will still be fed and grow up better for that ar#ole not being there......that may be a western view to you but we must agree to disagree.......

 

 

The apartment block is a typical cheap lower working class area, rent perhaps 4,000 max 5,000 baht per month. We don't know if the men are working but normally they do, there is no unemployment in their salary range and they tend to starve if they don't. The mothers tend to stay at home and take care of the kids unless they have relatives around

 

Sure the family may be better off with the offender in jail in this case. The father isn't hurt so he can still continue to work. He did tell the police his intent to push this to criminal court so he thinks what happened deserve jail. He would probably also have to pay 30% of his yearly salary for a cheap lawyer if he forces this through - that is a lawyer for criminal court. If the little boy gets permanent damage, then the police probably pushes this for the father - I don't think that is the case though because we can see the little boy sit up at the end of the video

 

Let's see what happens, it should soon be time for a solution. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we can see on the news soon that the case has been solved, the guy apologises publically and the police put a big show on showing how good they have been solving the case to everybody's benefit and even the TV announcer is glad that everything has been solved so well without further escalation

 

That is Thailand, that is Thai culture and that is what the population of Thailand really wants to happen

 

I of course dislike this most of the time too, I dislike how the apology means so much in Thai society but what I dislike even more is when people bash it without knowing that there is more going on behind the scene. The offender will be thoroughly scared to death by the police and told that if he ever does anything even remotely like this again, then he will go to jail for 4-5 years. The victim will probably get quite a bit of money from the offender and his relatives, the offender will probably move away

 

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:47 PM, tattoodrob said:

Your office Thais may be a bit different to the really poor but im pretty sure most  Thais dont go to the police for many criminal matters because they are corrupt and not because they dont understand that they dont have the evidence the police need etc.....i think when anyone goes to the police then not much action is taken until police have weighed up what is in it for them and so if nothing then a report is made and nothing much else.....evidence or no evidence etc  they dont do much investigating so they dont bother to go in the first place...............and  of course in civil action then they need a good lawyer which the poor cant afford plus they also know from experience that courts are very slow and results are not very good.....and we already see from many reports that punishments in Thailand rarely reflect the offence committed especially in criminal cases.

 

Well, they of course represent a smaller percentage of That's but they are Thai's. Most of then will sit at home thinking it is good if they see a solution without further escalation. Some will think that it would have been better to force the guy to jail but they also understand the hardship of the father having to put out maybe 30% of a yearly salary to do it

 

You are right and you are wrong about that the police don't investigate much. A victim can choose if he wants to pursue in civil or criminal court in Thailand. The evidence burden in both cases are on the victim if he is the one pursuing the case. If the police takes it up, then the evidence burden is on them and they investigate

 

It is not so much as you say that "not much action is taken until police have weighed up what is in it for them and so if nothing then a report is made and nothing much else". What is the crime and who is the evidence burden with?

 

I was interpreter in a case where an 8 year old girl was abducted from his father. Father had CCTV evidence that it was a relative on the mothers side who did it and the girl willingly went with her. Yes, it took 3 weeks for the police to get an arrest warrant - note here that the police have no right to arrest the woman until a judge has signed an arrest warrant - and she was arrested in another week. The father paid the expenses for the police who for the police who found the woman and arrested her, a couple of thousand baht for fuel, food etc. They would have done it anyway but it would have been impolite of the man not to do it

 

This case went to the district attorney and he of course ordered the woman to be released pending decision considering that the girl willingly went with her = no criminal intent. Then a year went by and he ordered case closed from his side as he saw no criminal intent = up to the father to pursue kidnapping charges himself. That is how it works here

 

Punishments are lenient in Thailand. Criminal law has high max penalties but low min => low min also because the police aren't the only ones using criminal law here

 

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:47 PM, tattoodrob said:

If you think that this white skinned intelligent legal trained guy (roiween) is contacted in every case to clear it then i beg to differ as i would think hes hardly used otherwise would need 1000's of them and then is less money for the regular RTP........sorry for the sudden change of writing style but accidently pressed something and it changed!!

Anyway you say they all think the same way as us but just do it differently then i dont think they do think the same way as us as the father of the victim saying wants an apology is not what any westerner would think after such an incident........that father should want him taken care of in the worst way he can think of and tell all and maybe even get angry a bit??......&lt;deleted&gt; the apology!!!

We live in a different society now (Thailand) and know it operates differently but i think is because they do think differently to us in such matters as this and have different priorities to us and to be honest i think most Thai are too money motivated but in a seriously bad way but lets not get onto that!!

 

There are 4 levels of policemen at a police station

Roi tamroat trii is the 3rd level that drives around on motor cycles, they know nothing and have no power at all. They are the ones who wants money the rude way. If you have done nothing wrong, then you handle them by going to the police station. They get very small in front of roiween when you report them for corruption

 

Roi tamroat to is the second level, he is the one that has the right to sign off police reports (3rd level do not). He is the one going to court to get arrest warrants and he is the one going to court as witness if the police pushes a criminal case to court. This guy has a working relationship with the district attorney. This guy always have a law degree, he wouldn't be able to do his job without one

 

I was at the police station as interpreter in a case and had prepared myself, I read up a bit on 2 paragraphs that should be valid. Roiween quickly quoted both of them completely and they were not short ones. Mikey back on earth again :)

 

Roi tamroat eek is the first level = he is responsible for a unit = traffic, 191... there are 5-6 of them.  They each have a number of 2nd level policemen who in turn has lots of 3rd level policemen under them

 

Then highest rank at a policeman is Pann trii = that's the 3rd level of the next level up. The 5-6 first level policemen report to him. He is the boss of the police station and sits on one of the higher up floors.  

 

The second level policeman up has the same feelings we do about kids, sure he does, and he is coloured by Thai culture the way he works, he must be. Thai's think that is good. Let's see how this case is presented in TV if a mutual solution is found

 

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:47 PM, tattoodrob said:

By the way i do have a few first hand experiences with Police and civil court actions myself(and from other peoples experiences too) and so without going into details the police may have procedures but dont always stick to them and courts are very slow and waste of time generally and ive never seen or heard of this Roiween at any time!...

 

True, the police don't always follow procedures, but as I said earlier, you can force a criminal case if you want, the police don't have the power to stop you. If you do, then you need to follow up with the district attorney for sure because the police may sit on the paperwork if he doesn't agree, and you need to follow up with the district attorney too because he is very likely to order the case closed within a year in line with roi ween without even telling you

 

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:47 PM, tattoodrob said:

ive never seen or heard of this Roiween at any time!...maybe if police did not want money then maybe i would have seen this Roiween or is for thai and thai only and called in by who?you seem to know about this?

 

You have seen him, he is the one with 2 stars

 

I also really dislike the power of the apology in Thai culture, I sometimes dislike how Thai culture always try to find a mutual agreement, sometimes not. It is great to push mutual agreement in Juvenile Court, it is bad in cases where the victim doesn't need help and working long term would be better

 

I also thought that money steered this process from the beginning but I realised after lots of contact with the police that money is just a small part of it. This is Thai culture in action, this happens with or without money

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[MikeyIdea]

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:47 PM, tattoodrob said:

yes i know Thai operates differently to the west but i dont think you have the views of the poor Thai people either.

 

I started leasing a house in a working class area in Bangkok 23 years ago, lease finished 17 years later and I let my daughter buy the land. I still live there with the family

 

My neighbours used to be Tuktuk drivers (they are now taxi drivers, what a development), they do laundry (they have washing machine nowadays), one family has the small shop at the corner, they are all lower to middle level working class. I deliberately chose that 23 years ago mainly because I don't like how the rich think they are too good to talk to each other. There is good and bad in it

 

We talk quite a lot with each other, the community is more active, much more than in moo baans surrounded by nice houses, the soi gets quiet(er) when Kaopansaa comes Mid July and louder again when it's time for aakpansaa mid October - That is the 3 months every year when Buddhists shouldn't drink alcohol... The police has been to the soi several times to break up quarrels in 20 years. There is a total lack of understanding what the police can and cannot do and what they have asked the police for help with in the 23 years I have been there are all things that the police have no authority to do anything about

 

Then I had a daughter and the soi environment was still good and bad. Many people to take care of her but all the neighbours of course slapped her on the fingers if they touched the ground, scared her of ghosts and cockroaches so that she wouldn't walk away and I nicely had to tell them that I was different and I asked them to stop so they half did.

 

Then came the school years and it wasn't that good any longer. I put my daughter in a private kindergarten and I cared about her future much differently from my neighbours, they cared about today and tomorrow for their children. Then came primary school and the environment became a problem. The neighbours way of presenting themselves scream working class and they use swear words and generally speak in a way that doesn't look good in a private bilingual school. I am happy that she has this experience of both worlds and can mingle in both. It really is 2 different worlds

 

I have changed a lot the last 23 years in that soi. The Thai's have not, actually, they haven't changed anything almost. They have it much better but they haven't changed.

 

They used to hit their kids fingers every time they wanted to explore something even slightly dirty and scared them of ghosts all the time. They didn't care if the kids slept day or night almost, they didn't care if it was quiet when the kids should sleep, they didn't care about times for food. 

 

I recommended the cheap Thai books you can buy at Big C with good advice how to help children develop better, they were no more than 40-50 baht. The parents didn't look happy when I did, they came with an excuse about money, then went a bought more beer half an hour later. I stopped mentioning it because I saw that they didn't like it, they didn't want to change, they wanted to continue to bring up their children the way their parents had brought up them

 

Some of the families are still there today. I saw their kids grow up, one girl had 2 abortions and two kids by the age of 20-21, then she sterilized herself. I asked her, You're only 20, what if you and your boyfriend split up and he fights for custody, you have another boyfriend? I could see that she didn't like it so I stopped. Thai's don't want to think of the negative

 

This girl is 22 or so now, she still hits the fingers of her children when they touch the ground, she still scares them of ghosts so that they don't walk away so that they themselves can sit down and drink. She still screams at them with and without reason and do not consider if actions are good or bad for their future development. So do everybody else. In short, they still bring up their children the same way their parents brought up them. They have it better though so the kids will probably finish university in 20 years time, full of knowledge that they have memorized but can't use very well 

 

The neighbours can see that my daughter is different from their kids, she has more initiative, she dares to try thinks, she questions, she has more self confidence, more imagination. We talk about our kids and I tell them that it's about how we teach our kids and not the school they go to and the neighbours walk away convinced that it is the better school I send my daughter too that makes the difference...

 

This is what I have seen of the poor Thai's the last 25 years.

 

I compare to the office and the middle class there, my friends there discuss how to bring up children, pros and cons and they act on it. They understand that school is only part of it 

 

Is the working class really closing the gap? Or is the middle class here in Thailand more running away? In some ways I think they are

 

Not quite on topic but you questioned what experience I have of the working class. Here it is

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by MikeyIdea

[tattoodrob]

Agree that Thai dont want to change even given the chance..so frustrating that many dont want to improve themselves or there children.

I would gladly pay the fathers lawyer fees to have this guy prosecuted.

Yes offender may be scared of the Police now but as you know he and many other sickos wont think of that and so wont stop his future actions,if he had any morals etc then he woudnt have kicked the kid many times already so the scaring him not to do it in the future hardly will stop him,maybe stop him for the next 2 weeks or so! Usually the excuse of "i was drunk" seems to be the most used one in cases of extreme violence but not seen to be used in this instance..he just a bully of small children and extremely sick in the brain.

We westerners will never understand that they  are all happy with an apology and case closed as we all know saying sorry is easy and useless.I prefer when the mob take justice into there own hands and batter him especially in this case,this is closer to real justice.......but looks like no one bothered "too much"....forgot about a few days after.

As you know by living in a normal street that most Thais rely on alcohol to get them through life day to day which not the best way to bring up children.

Can you at least admit the Police are the real mafia in this country???? They control most illegal activities in some way and there are many that have a lot of money from undisclosed sources...yes?? so do Thai trust them..i think not.

There doesnt seem to be much follow up on criminal cases and so that makes it very easy to clear things up in a way that nobody gets to see or hear about and also would you agree that in this country then is very much based on who you know to how much you can get away with and i would also say that money does seem to be more important than justice in many policemans(judges etc) eyes.....and so can you trust the system......its a closed club with many of there own internal ways to operate with greed being one of them....and to try and look good themselves in front when they darn well know they havent done well.

Anyway i know some of the murkier ways they operate so i would not like to go to them when i have trouble and that seems to be the way most Thai operate i think,you may not think that.

It does seem to be a compensation system they operate here and so if you can compensate with money after your wrong doing then all ok!!!! but this is wrong..yes compensation hurts them but does not teach them as then they could think if have more money then could get away with more(rich Thai?) but anyway its not a real punishment is it?? "oh sorry i raped your daughter,heres 200000 bt to make her feel better..ok lets move on" when really he should go to prison for 10 years for ruining her life...this is why westerners will not understand Thai way or ever be happy with the Thai way...as it doesnt make sense hence why we all complain on thai visa etc as we westerners will never understand why they cant operate in a more sensible way......we dont understand the system as is not a good system and doesnt operate as you say in many many cases as seems the Police just interested in compensation and there share at the beginning of any investigation...maybe thats more the Farang cases than the Thai cases so i cant speak about Police in non tourist areas but definitely is very hard for a Farang to come out fairly against a Thai.

Thanks for your insight into Thailand but everyone has different experiences and seems most on Thai Visa will know or hear about Farang cases rather than Thai although we do see that many things are swept under the rug if it suits them with no real recourse,how many times we see policeman moved to other station when found to be doing something really bad instead of actually losing there job and being prosecuted and punished,happens too many times...so the system is not trusted so dont get upset yourself if many westerners dont understand the way the Thai procede as is more upsetting that law here dont procede the way it would in the western world..hence the frustration on Thaivisa.

[MikeyIdea]

14 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

Agree that Thai dont want to change even given the chance..so frustrating that many dont want to improve themselves or there children.

I would gladly pay the fathers lawyer fees to have this guy prosecuted.

 

Maybe we agree that we understand each other on more things, maybe we agree on more things  There are probably quite a few things that we won't be able to agree on because it sounds like you and I, while we both live in working class areas, still live in totally different environments in Thailand

 

I do not agree with your word useless, different kind of justice, that is all. Jail better for society, not for the victim. I do absolutely not prefer the mob like you do. The victim should just push this to court if he wants a different kind of justice and he will get it, lenient justice but he will get it

 

The video from ThaiRath is up on YouTube. The case was “closed” the Thai way. The police put on a big public show how good they had been solving the case without escalation, the offender publically apologized, the ThaiRath announcer said she was happy that the case had been closed

 

We agree that more had been going on behind the scene now. The bully had been scared out of the offender. His relatives are definitely angry with him for wasting their money and the deal probably included that he must move away. I hope we agree that this guy won’t do this again, there are others who still will

 

Yes, you are right, Thai’s will forget so easily. But it's better to say: Things in the past don’t matter quickly here, it’s practically the same as forget but not quite. I remember how I thought that Sujinda would never dare to come back to Thailand again after he had been called before the King and told to step down. I was so wrong and ignorant back then. He was back a couple of years later living in luxury down on Sukhumvit Rd, he even had his own police protection. Forget doesn’t mean forget in the physical sense. No Thai has forgotten that lots of people died during the events leading up to Sujinda’s resignation.

 

15 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

We westerners will never understand that they  are all happy with an apology and case closed as we all know saying sorry is easy and useless.I prefer when the mob take justice into there own hands and batter him especially in this case,this is closer to real justice.......but looks like no one bothered "too much"....forgot about a few days after.

 

I feel I do understand, apology matters much more here and it's also more difficult for Thai's to say it too. It's so easy to say sorry for westerners that it doesn't matter much either. Thai's learn to remember and they are better at remembering than westerners are. Westerners learn to understand and we are not good at remembering. Thai's do not forget, they choose to not think and talk about it. This is very different

 

15 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

As you know by living in a normal street that most Thais rely on alcohol to get them through life day to day which not the best way to bring up children.

 

Depends totally on...: 400 people in the company I work for and I see nothing of that, 15 houses on the soi I live and I see several. I don’t agree with “most” at all. Lower working class quite often do, middle working class not much, middle class up don’t. Sad with generalization but there are real trends.

 

15 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

Can you at least admit the Police are the real mafia in this country???? They control most illegal activities in some way and there are many that have a lot of money from undisclosed sources...yes?? so do Thai trust them..i think not.

 

Yes absolutely. The police often run illegal gambling dens etc. If their “interest” is not good enough, then they close down. The police are not trusted and not respected because of that but there is also more or less understanding of what that actually affects and not depending on education. It doesn't affect a case of child violence

 

The police sometimes help to negotiate justice so the poor and uneducated gets confused / misled. They ask the police for justice but they don’t know that the police actually have no right to offer justice at all. Strictly speaking, the police are only allowed to serve and protect also in Thailand. Is this perhaps why westerners not used to this and poor Thai's think that the police not only run the negotiations, they also run the outcome? No so

 

Justice is/should be handled totally by courts. It would be better to have a clear line because of this reason but Thailand is an underdeveloped country, that won’t happen until Thailand is a developed country

 

I still stand by what I wrote earlier that the educated don’t worry about if they can trust the police if they want to push criminal charges. They worry about other things like do they have enough evidence, waste of time and money, especially considering that punishment will be lenient, some criminal court verdicts can give minimum 2,000 baht penalty... What's the point? But what's the point? and I don't trust them are not the same thing

 

There is reason why the Thai people respect soldiers much more than the police => Soldiers and the military deserve much more. There are (sad) class differences in the understanding too. The poor see all policemen the same, the well educated don’t

 

15 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

There doesnt seem to be much follow up on criminal cases and so that makes it very easy to clear things up in a way that nobody gets to see or hear about and also would you agree that in this country then is very much based on who you know to how much you can get away with and i would also say that money does seem to be more important than justice in many policemans(judges etc) eyes.....and so can you trust the system......its a closed club with many of there own internal ways to operate with greed being one of them....and to try and look good themselves in front when they darn well know they havent done well.

 

We see this differently  Policemen are not responsible for investigating criminal cases that private people push, only what they raise themselves. They manage their workload by being difficult in disputable cases => the same even in Sweden nowadays, known to be a role model of social protection in the past. There is more in the newspapers about that the police choose to not pursue nowadays. Does not apply to rape and grievous bodily harm of course

 

I have been to court many times as an interpreter in Thailand. There is absolutely zero corruption money in Family and Juvenile court, I have never heard of a Thai lawyer who really knows of a case where judges were included in the money part of a deal. Westerners often think that there is corruption in Family and Juvenile court and that corruption is common in civil courts and it just bores me. I still think: People who don’t know speak easily

 

Compensation negotiated in court is not corruption. It’s for mutual benefit and it does not include judges in civil courts. The X million baht that a Thai mother was awarded to agree to sign over sole custody of her child to the western father so that he could bring him home was negotiated and the judges really made sure that the mother really was happy with the deal.

 

Status can matter, sure, money to judges...? What's the point? There are 3 (three) levels of courts, not one = first money, then more money and then more money again. And you won't know when you pay one level if the next level will accept or if you lose the money you already paid. This is very rare and very high profile only. If a civil court judge could accept a million baht, would a Supreme Court judge want a million dollars to risk his status?  

 

I bet that when you use the word judges together with money above, you do it because other do it

 

15 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

Anyway i know some of the murkier ways they operate so i would not like to go to them when i have trouble and that seems to be the way most Thai operate i think,you may not think that.

 

Most of my Thai friends at the office would be happy to go to the police if they need justice and know they are innocent. And it matches my own experience too. Most of my Thai friends on the soi at home won't. I will never be able to get my different friends to agree and we will never agree

 

15 hours ago, tattoodrob said:

It does seem to be a compensation system they operate here and so if you can compensate with money after your wrong doing then all ok!!!! but this is wrong..yes compensation hurts them but does not teach them as then they could think if have more money then could get away with more(rich Thai?) but anyway its not a real punishment is it?? "oh sorry i raped your daughter,heres 200000 bt to make her feel better..ok lets move on" when really he should go to prison for 10 years for ruining her life...this is why westerners will not understand Thai way or ever be happy with the Thai way...as it doesnt make sense hence why we all complain on thai visa etc as we westerners will never understand why they cant operate in a more sensible way......we dont understand the system as is not a good system and doesnt operate as you say in many many cases as seems the Police just interested in compensation and there share at the beginning of any investigation...

 

You’re doing it again  You write like you think the police decides if the victim should accept compensation or not. The victim decides. The police are sometimes lazy, true, they sometimes want money too, also true - and they get it from the offenders side, not the victims side - unless they have no mandate to act in the first place but then that is correct. If we ask them to do something they actually have no right to do, then we should pay. 

This is not the full story either. That culture expects no escalation solution

 

I see it as an advantage that I can raise criminal charges myself if I have to. Why don't you ever mention that? It would help everybody if the minimum sentences were raised a lot too of course, that's another way, but if you do that, then you'd have to (should) take away the right for ordinary people to pursue criminal changes

 

I have myself pushed a criminal case that the police didn’t want to do themselves. It was easy, he refused because he wanted negotiation, I said sure, I came to the negotiation and said that I still refuse, good let’s press charges... I had already used legal vocabulary so it was simply that he knew that I knew that he didn’t have the power to stop me. Would he have continued to refuse if he knew that I didn't know? Yes

 

I pushed criminal charges, the guy moved away a couple of months later. I never heard anything from the case again, exactly as I expected. I don't know if it was because the policeman sat on the papers or if the district attorney ordered case closed without calling me (against procedure) and I don't care. I knew from the beginning that the district attorney would order the case closed if I didn't contact him. When the bad guy moved away, I didn't. Things work a bit different here

 

You write that it in your opinion is difficult for a farang to come out fairly against a Thai. I also thought that 25 years ago. Maybe it’s true in Pattaya and Phuket but I do not see or hear that in Thai Thai areas at all. I see fairness

 

I must say this: I brought up rape because I know that Thailand compared to western countries have hard sentencing for rape, both the death penalty and life imprisonment are possible here too, there are many rapists doing life in Thai jails. I am surprised that you bring rape up.

 

I cannot change my mind about this either: I am so glad that I live in a country where I as a father of a teenage daughter together with her are the ones deciding if her rape should go to court or not. I wouldn't want it any other way. If she's strong enough, then let's get the guy on a life sentence, if she's not strong enough, then I'll be happy to explain that to the police and ask them for help to squeeze out as much money as possible and give them some of it of course.

 

I can even reward the police greatly if they pursue themselves here, and when my daughter is called to court as a witness, then I'll go and explain that she refused to come because of the trauma. Court will be understanding and will arrange a minimum protected session with her and I have hit 2 birds with one stone. I will have protected my daughter from exposure and set the court heavily against the rapist, big smile on Daddy's face.

 

So will the poor Thai rape have problems with the police? No, she will have problems with her parents losing face and absolutely not wanting her to press changes, not with the police... Some things are really bad in Thai culture

 

You must live in a very unfair part of Thailand. Worse than Phuket. Do you live around Pattaya?

I still enjoy writing this. It's amazing how different the Thai's around us are. In Europe I would be bored to death because nothing ever happens. I can plan and everything goes according to plan

 

Mikey

 

[cncltd1973]

On 10/6/2016 at 8:46 AM, Laughing Gravy said:

If this is justice it stinks and is wrong on so many levels. Just because it is law or the Thai way doesn't justify credence. I am sure any decent human being Thai, Western or anyone would find the actions of the man disturbing and the way the handling of it just as disturbing.

The kicker thought he was above the other boy's father and lost face when his son 'slighted' by the other boy. Now the lower father asks for compensation for the brutality and face is restored. Horrible to watch, but that's how they're traditional justice system has worked,. Village chiefs would have moderated, but police have assumed the role now.

There was a phone video of a park security kicking the head of an 18yo boy, on and off for many minutes, and Thais only watched with little complaint. He would kick a few times,walk around and come back for more kicks. With each kick, he was restoring his public position and face.

 

We're seeing  it through our experience with the brotherhood of democracy, where we're all equal bricks in the wall. The entire Thai existence has been a pyramid type, with those above maintaining order with brutal punishment, grinding down those below so they don't raise above you. Also a reason democracy isn't quite working out here, but let's not get into that here.