An SSA question

[chiang mai]

I got caught by WEP and found I was able to separate the company contributions from the personal ones, that reduced the impact of WEP by over 50%, as things stand my US SSc pension was reduced by about 21%.

[tutsiwarrior]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

I got caught by WEP and found I was able to separate the company contributions from the personal ones, that reduced the impact of WEP by over 50%, as things stand my US SSc pension was reduced by about 21%.

 

thanks fer that chiang mai...interesting to hear that others on the forum have been victimized as well...

 

I'm gonna send form SSA-561 'request for reconsideration' to Baltimore (email?) and then presume that there will be an interview...did it go that way with you? did Manila get involved at all?

[chiang mai]

49 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

 

thanks fer that chiang mai...interesting to hear that others on the forum have been victimized as well...

 

I'm gonna send form SSA-561 'request for reconsideration' to Baltimore (email?) and then presume that there will be an interview...did it go that way with you? did Manila get involved at all?

 

No, there's no interview.

 

Manilla and Baltimore are not in synch., I have a strong suspicion they don't communicate other than through some records updating process and that Baltimore largely ignores Manilla. I've had several conversations on the same subject with both almost simultaneously, believing they were in synch, only to find out that Baltimore was doing one thing whilst Manilla was doing something entirely different. BTW it took ten months for Baltimore to make the WEP adjustment to my payments, despite being sent originals of all the documents they needed they still went back to the source and got the same documents over again - interestingly that resulted in me being over paid for those ten months, Manilla had me fill out a (Baltimore issued) form whereby the overpay would be reclaimed at a ludicrous twenty bucks a months for god knows how long, Baltimore didn't pay any attention to that and simply stopped paying me anything until the overage had been reclaimed. Good luck.

Edited December 25, 2016 by chiang mai

[Pib]

I would deal only with Baltimore as much as possible on this issue, because Baltimore is where the experts and decisions are made; Manila is only a "middleman" which takes SS applications, handles simple SS questions and updates, passes along forms, and since some folks prefer to deal with a "local" SS office it provides that warm fuzzy for those kind of folks.   But local offices is not where the decisions and final processing occurs....that's at a central SS operation like how the SS Baltimore center is for "international operations/payments."

 

Info for Baltimore Office

https://www.ssa.gov/foreign/

 

 

But with that being said it definitely won't hurt to talk to Manila again about your situation, what has happened so far,  and see what they recommend.  

[tutsiwarrior]

yeah, thanks for that, pib...I was gonna deal directly with Baltimore on this one...although many folks have had a good experience with Manila my 'mileage varied' (unnecessary delays) considerably...just hopin' that we can do this 'reconsideration' business by email...who should I send the form SSA - 561 to I wonder? is there an SSA department that deals with overseas applicants in Baltimore? I haven't seen any instructions for handling the form...

[Pib]

I seriously doubt you are going to be able to deal with one of the SSA payment centers via email like the Baltimore center whose responsibility is to handle SS claimants who live outside the U.S. & international related things affecting SS.   Dealing with the SSA is basically done by snail mail, phone call, fax, visit to an office, and in some cases email to local offices like the Manila office.   

 

In addition to any point of contact info given to you in their determination letter to you, the weblink below gives their phone numbers and a fax number you can use.   I can tell you from experience when I called the Baltimore office a few times when I applied for my SS pension and wanted to find out the status of my application, when calling a Baltimore number you will be lucky to get a real person to answer the phone...instead you'll probably get a recording to say leave a voice message with your issue and a call back number....and the recording should say they will call you back within 48 business hours.   I did get a real person "one" time in my calls...other times I had to leave a message and I was calling during their business hours.   First time I left a message I did "not" get a call back within 48 hours....around a week later I called again and left another message and this time I did get a call back at about the 46th hour point.     Now I have a couple of U.S. landline numbers here at my Bangkok home (U.S. VOIP numbers) so for me to make and receive calls to/from the U.S. is just like I'm in the U.S. versus calling international long distance.

 

Now during that callback....which was a good news callback in that my application had been approved...no issues....the Baltimore person said if I don't see it officially in snail mail and on my online SSA account within X-days to call him back at "his" office number (which he gave me) and not one of the central numbers.   He said the central numbers are manned by Baltimore reps who all get the call center duty  for a few days each month (like he had it for 2 days that month)....then they are back working their regular Baltimate center duties/jobs until call center duty comes up again.

 

I also had called the SSA 1800 number which you can call regarding any SS issue but when those reps looked into their computer system and saw my application was at the Baltimore center all they could do is tell me what status was shown in the computer, give me a number to call at Baltimore (one of their call center numbers), or they sent an intra-system email to Baltimore (which one rep did) but I never saw no action from their intra-system email.   

 

This link gives Baltimore phone numbers and a fax number.

https://www.ssa.gov/foreign/phones.html

 

And this SSA link is to their POMS regulations that talks WEP in detail....it's basically details how the SSA is to deal with the WEP and gives "details" on WEP which may be helpful to you.  

https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0300605360

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

 

[tutsiwarrior]

thanks pib...looks like I'm gonna havta forward the SSA - 561 to Manila and request that they forward to the dept in Baltimore...sorta hate to do it as I've had probs with Manila as I've described above...hopefully I can count on them for simple document forwarding to Baltimore...

 

I wonder how Baltimore will respond? I'll be traveling outside of Thailand for a week next month to the 'ol home town in Ky Anh, Vietnam which is remote but I'll have my laptop and phone on roaming with me...will all the communication be on snail mail I wonder...

[taxout]

It's difficult to explain the logic behind the Windfall Elimination provision in just a few sentences. So bear with me.

 

The starting point is this: while Social Security benefits are based on how much you've paid into the system, benefit calculations are skewed, so that lower-paid workers get a better return than higher-paid workers. Take the case of two workers, one who made $25,000 each year over 30 years, the other $50,000. While the $50,000 worker will have paid in twice the Social Security taxes of the $25,000 worker, his benefits won't be twice as much. He'll get less because the benefit calculations are adjusted to give a higher return to lower-paid workers.

 

Now, let's assume you worked in the U.S. at a very good salary, $120,000 say, for five years, then spent the rest of your career working overseas outside Social Security. In deciding whether you were a lower-paid or higher-paid worker, Social Security looks at your average Social Security earnings over 30 years. So in this case, Social Security will calculate your average annual earnings as about $20,000 ($120,000 X 5 /30). As a result,  you'll fall into the lower-paid worker category and get benefits based on a high rate of return.

 

The Windfall Elimination provision says that's not right. You're actually a higher-paid worker, so we'll pay your benefits based on the reduced rates that apply to higher-paid workers. (But we won't cut your benefits by more than half the pension you receive from your overseas employment.)

 

Of course that's all a bit simplified -- there are some twists and turns in the rules -- but it's the basic concept. It may well be wrong and unfair, but it is the rule.

 

Because there are twists and turns, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the rules and do a rough calculation of your benefits before you go back to Social Security.

 

If you deal with Manila, at least you have someone to contact if there are delays or questions. Trying to find who's actually dealing with your file in Baltimore by yourself is near impossible.

 

[tutsiwarrior]

I don't understand...if I didn't mention my UK pension on my application then my SS payments as originally calculated would not be affected...and the SSA recalculated based upon the amount that I will receive from the UK pension...that don't line up too well with your explanation but for which I thank you for your effort to clarify...

[chiang mai]

SSc is designed to support the lower paid worker more than the higher paid, the WEP calculation takes that into account and adjusts down for higher income.

[tutsiwarrior]

still don't make no sense...my reported earnings over the past 30 years would make me one of the lowest paid workers...if I hadn't been paid big money when working for an american outfit for 2 years durimg that time I probably wouldn't qualify for SS altogether...

[Pib]

I expect Baltimore will do all their reply corresponding with you via snail mail.     

 

Regarding how the SSA found out about your UK pension the SSA gets crossfeed documentation/info from a variety of sources....somehow they found out about your UK pension although you didn't tell them.    And the SSA apparently searches for info regarding other pensions, 401K type plans, and a wide variety of other things regarding a person's pension during their application and during periodic reviews.   And with computers now days and interchange of info at many levels, a flag can appear at anytime that a person's payment needs to be reviewed due to new info/some change.

 

Heck, as mentioned earlier,  I just started my social security pension and will get my first payment in about a week/3 Jan 17. One of the documents I got by snail mail in some of the approval documentation they sent me was an old tax related 401K annual form from Fidelity.   Fidelity has managed the 401K plan for a company I worked at for about a year.   Now I had worked at this company in the late 90s only for a  year, had transferred the 401K years later to another financial company,   but this form I got was dated around 2003 showing I may or may not still have some money in that 401K....if was kinda an FYI form I figure saying they had become aware of the 401K during my application processing.   Apparently they had dug up this 401K info during my pension application process all in their effort to see what other pension/benefit plans (just anything) I have that which "might" affect my social security payment amount or something I had intentionally/unintentionally forgot to tell them about.  I was just surprised to get such old documentation from the SSA....I thought to myself they definitely have access to some old financial information beyond just the annual earnings that get reported to them.

[chiang mai]

10 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

still don't make no sense...my reported earnings over the past 30 years would make me one of the lowest paid workers...if I hadn't been paid big money when working for an american outfit for 2 years durimg that time I probably wouldn't qualify for SS altogether...

 

Whether you qualify or not is based on years of contributions, a minimum of ten years is required, how much you earned in those ten years is not a factor as to whether or not you qualify.

 

And presumably you are American? As  Brit living outside the UK I lose 20% to WEP and a further 24.5% to mandatory income tax at source, consider your self lucky in many respects.

 

Agreed with PIB, there's a free flow of information between the US and UK on a range of fronts so there's no hiding in one or the other, data protection act my arse.

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by chiang mai

[tutsiwarrior]

yeah, my measly GBP500 UK pension got hit by 12% tax so we's all in de same boat...and (ahem) I'm not an 'american'...I'm from California...

 

if you're a brit and receive a UK gov't pension then there might be reason for the SSA to recalculate...this is a point that I wanted to make to the SSA, that my UK pension is a company scheme with voluntary contributions from my salary and that I do not receive any gov't benefits...

[taxout]

Receiving a foreign pension in respect of employment not covered by Social Security is what triggers WEP. They then recalculate your Social Security benefits as if you were a higher-paid worker, but cap the adjustment to one-half your foreign pension.

 

Social Security doesn't need any information from the UK to know you're receiving a foreign pension, though they may receive it. Presumably your U.S. Federal tax returns show foreign pension income (assuming you're a U.S. citizen).

[tutsiwarrior]

yeah...this is what I understand but how can half of GBP500 require any SSA payment adjustment? bizarre...

 

and it is ironic that my UK pension makes me a 'higher paid worker'...university trained engineers in the UK get lumped in with uneducated apprentice boys and are paid accordingly...never seen such miserable wages, could barely keep things afloat when I lived there...

[chiang mai]

17 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

yeah, my measly GBP500 UK pension got hit by 12% tax so we's all in de same boat...and (ahem) I'm not an 'american'...I'm from California...

 

if you're a brit and receive a UK gov't pension then there might be reason for the SSA to recalculate...this is a point that I wanted to make to the SSA, that my UK pension is a company scheme with voluntary contributions from my salary and that I do not receive any gov't benefits...

 

Again, if the contributions to the foreign pension scheme were all voluntary, your SSc is not subject to WEP. BUT, you have to tell SSc they were voluntary and you have to prove it otherwise they will presume they were not.

 

 

[tutsiwarrior]

16 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

Again, if the contributions to the foreign pension scheme were all voluntary, your SSc is not subject to WEP. BUT, you have to tell SSc they were voluntary and you have to prove it otherwise they will presume they were not.

 

 

 

this is exactly the reason for which I will file the SSA - 561 for 'reconsideration'...I just wanna make sure that they got the facts straight...signing up for the company pension scheme was purely voluntary with monthly salary deductions, no one forces you to sign up for this arrangement...and it's reasonable to presume that the SSA know that...

 

some jerkoff zealot wantin' to save the outfit some money, I suppose...

 

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by tutsiwarrior

[Pib]

I got caught by WEP and found I was able to separate the company contributions from the personal ones, that reduced the impact of WEP by over 50%, as things stand my US SSc pension was reduced by about 21%.

Curiosity question...did the SSA first ask you about WEP when you "initially" applied for the SS pension or they asked months or years after you had been drawing the SS pension?

I know you said in another post after they finally made their WEP decision they required back payments to recover the overpayments but I'm unclear if their WEP enquiry began with your initial application or it initially came along significantly down the road after your initial application was approved and payments had been underway for months/years.

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

Curiosity question...did the SSA first ask you about WEP when you "initially" applied for the SS pension or they asked months or years after you had been drawing the SS pension?

I know you said in another post after they finally made their WEP decision they required back payments to recover the overpayments but I'm unclear if their WEP enquiry began with your initial application or it initially came along significantly down the road after your initial application was approved and payments had been underway for months/years.

 

Manilla asked me first during the initial SSc interview if I had any foreign pensions due, other than SSc, and I replied yes. At the time I didn't know about WEP and as the time grew closer to me receiving my UK state pension I figured I'd better come clean on the whole thing - by then however I had found out about voluntary versus mandatory contributions so the blow was somewhat lessened. So their WEP enquiry began on my 65th birthday when I started to receive my UK pension, as said I mailed them all the documents and the calculation all of which they ignored and subsequently went to the UK pensions folks for the very same things.

[Pib]

20 hours ago, Pib said:

 

And this SSA link is to their POMS regulations that talks WEP in detail....it's basically details how the SSA is to deal with the WEP and gives "details" on WEP which may be helpful to you.  

https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0300605360

 

 

Spent some time today starting at above link given earlier....clicked the "Next" sublinks to read more about WEP.   Found out it applies to even some various U.S. pensions....not just foreign pensions.   Below link talks WEP foreign pensions.  I would like to say it's not to hard to understand, but I can't.

https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0200307290#c5