May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[7by7]

26 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 Thank you for that.7by7. So he was in agreement to join the EEC, as were the majority of the British electorate in 1973, myself included,as previously stated. 

We never agreed to become part of the EU. And we can only guess what would have been W.C opinion of this so called Union.

 

 We don't have to guess.

 

In both his 1930 article and his 1946 speech he was advocating a United States of Europe. I haven't done the research, but would not be surprised if he repeated that advocacy elsewhere at other times.

 

The concept of a USE, a federal state along the lines of the USA, suggests, to me at least, far greater political union than that of the EU.

 

Edit: Found another example:

Quote

Churchill wrote to his foreign secretary, Anthony Eden, on 21 October 1942:

‘Hard as it is to say now.. I look forward to a United States of Europe, in which the barriers between the nations will be greatly minimised and unrestricted travel will be possible.’

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by 7by7
Addendum

[7by7]

13 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

Completely agree, once the EU apron ties are cut then our own Government will be totally accountable, no excuses.

 

Indeed, post Brexit those who currently blame the EU for all of the UK's woes will have to find other scapegoats.

15 minutes ago, citybiker said:

The UK is more than capable of succeeding post Brexit, less doom and gloom negativity and more progressive level head mindset thinking.

Succeeding in some way? Probably.

 

Achieving the same, or better, level of prosperity than had we remained in the EU? We will have to wait and see; but I doubt it. Which is why I voted to remain.

 

But the die is cast, and all we can hope for is the best future possible outside the EU.

 

 

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 We don't have to guess.

 

In both his 1930 article and his 1946 speech he was advocating a United States of Europe. I haven't done the research, but would not be surprised if he repeated that advocacy elsewhere at other times.

 

The concept of a USE, a federal state along the lines of the USA, suggests, to me at least, far greater political union than that of the EU.

 

Edit: Found another example:

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree on what W.C would have thought of this 

so called Union.

 

We are with them, but not of them!' Even Sir Winston Churchill opposed membership of EU

PROOF has emerged that wartime Prime Minister Winston Churchill opposed British membership of the EU.

By DAVID MADDOX

04:45, Thu, Jun 2, 2016 | UPDATED: 08:51, Thu, Jun 2, 2016

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GETTY

A dossier has been uncovered which is thought to prove that Churchill opposed Britain in the EU

A Veterans For Britain dossier has been hailed by the former Prime Minister’s biographer Boris Johnson as ending claims that he wanted us in the EU.

The Remain campaign claim is set to be repeated this week with the launch of the new £5 note with Churchill’s portrait. But an analysis of speeches by Sir Winston and a conversation he had with Field Marshall Bernard Montgomery reveal that he was firmly opposed to British membership.

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Instead he wanted Britain to be a “friend and sponsor” to a United States of Europe.

We have our own Commonwealth and Empire

Prime Minister Winston Churchill

As early as 1946, Churchill saw Britain helping a new Europe but not being part of it.

He said: “Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine.”

As Prime Minister in 1953, he was explicit that Britain should not be part of the arrangement. He told the Commons: “Where do we stand? We are not members of the European Defence Community, nor do we intend to be merged in a Federal European system. We feel we have a special relation to both. This can be expressed by prepositions, by the preposition ‘with’ but not ‘of’ – we are with them, but not of them. We have our own Commonwealth and Empire.”

GETTY

Boris Johnson hailed the discovery as ending claims the Churchill wanted the UK in the EU

He also told the Cabinet that “we are not merged with United Europe, we are a separate closely – and specially related – ally and friend, but we will not be subordinated into a federal system”.

The message was repeated in a number of his speeches in the 1950s and 1960s. When the Tories were first trying to take Britain into the European Economic Community in 1962 he was asked by Montgomery on his hospital bed whether it should happen.

Winston Churchill in pictures

Sun, May 10, 2015

Winston Churchill died in January 24, 1965

PLAY SLIDESHOW

PA

1 of 43

Sir Winston Churchill shows the peace sign while smoking a cigar in 1954

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His reply was reported as “No!” accompanied by colourful language. Montgomery apologised but only for asking Churchill while he was ill, not for the accuracy of the report.

In echoes of the intimidation used by Downing Street today, he later noted: “The governmental and party machine went into action very quickly and put him back on the fence!

“The old man is not allowed to say what he thinks publicly.”

GETTY

Churchill described the UK as 'separate closely' to United Europe

Mr Johnson said: “The evidence is absolutely conclusive that Churchill did not want us to join the EU or its predecessor.

“He had the opportunity to take us in as Prime Minister in the 1950s and didn’t take it because he did not want us in.

“He would be horrified at the loss of sovereignty this country has suffered and would definitely campaign for us to Leave.”

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5K

[Richard W]

5 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Succeeding in some way? Probably.

 

Achieving the same, or better, level of prosperity than had we remained in the EU? We will have to wait and see; but I doubt it. Which is why I voted to remain.

And not for any nobler reason?  I think that is why the leavers won.

[citybiker]

Well, an interesting development being reported by the Telegraph. Factual information based on legal advice from senior Solictors/lawyers including Paul Hardy, the Counsel for European Legislation states the U.K. Is under no obligation to pay a penny unless a deal is reached at the end of Article 50 negotiations.

A political but small financial settlement is a possible suggestion/proposal but I suggest this may infuriate or frustrate Junker et al.

I'd say the next meeting PMTM has with the EU on the 9/10 March could be somewhat awkward.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/04/britain-will-not-have-pay-penny-leave-european-union-say-peers/


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[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Well, an interesting development being reported by the Telegraph. Factual information based on legal advice from senior Solictors/lawyers including Paul Hardy, the Counsel for European Legislation states the U.K. Is under no obligation to pay a penny unless a deal is reached at the end of Article 50 negotiations.

A political but small financial settlement is a possible suggestion/proposal but I suggest this may infuriate or frustrate Junker et al.

I'd say the next meeting PMTM has with the EU on the 9/10 March could be somewhat awkward.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/04/britain-will-not-have-pay-penny-leave-european-union-say-peers/


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There is a separate thread on this precise topic

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, Flustered said:

No, I know nothing about Germany, I only lived there for 7 years, (Scheun), my daughter was born there and I am fluent in German (my second language) also I was posted there in the 70s in the army so no, I am not qualified to speak on the matter.

 

You will never see sense with regards to the dangers in Europe so the discussion is pointless.

 

Brexit is the greatest thing that has happened to Europe since the Berlin wall came down. A common market is the ideal that Europe should have pursued and what we signed up to in the 70s. We never signed up to a Federal Europe with political integration.

 

As I said, you will never agree as you are one of those Bremoaners who would rather see the UK suffer and it's nationals in the EU thrown out just so you can say "told you so".so no point discussing it with you.

I was stationed at RAF Laarbruch in the early 70's but of course only you have a valid opinion.

[Flustered]

8 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I was stationed at RAF Laarbruch in the early 70's but of course only you have a valid opinion.

Exactly. It is experiences in life that give us our points of view.

 

The more traveled and immersed in other cultures you become, the better your point of view.

 

For me, it is all about identity and self governance. Not the Brussels one size fits all and Frau Merkle's do as you are told.

 

Drive through France and see the empty villages, the boulangeries, patisseries and charcutiers  closed down. They cannot compete with the Euro standard supermarkets.

 

Same in the UK, Germany and most of Europe. Little people like Junkers wants a Euro standard across the whole economic and political spectrum. Thank God we are coming out.

[Grouse]

What is it that you think the EU is doing to support supermarket chains at the expense of small retailers?

 

Dont you think it's our own fault? Lowest prices, online shopping, advertising!

 

I think Defra is a good thing but it won't survive Brexit. You think small farms and village shops are going to do better? 

 

Look, even nostalgia isn't what it used to be. We can't blame everything on the EU.

[Flustered]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What is it that you think the EU is doing to support supermarket chains at the expense of small retailers?

 

Dont you think it's our own fault? Lowest prices, online shopping, advertising!

 

I think Defra is a good thing but it won't survive Brexit. You think small farms and village shops are going to do better? 

 

Look, even nostalgia isn't what it used to be. We can't blame everything on the EU.

It is happening under yours and others very eyes and is not noticeable.

 

It's part of the Global Market.

 

Take away all of the red tape and allow anyone to expand into other countries. Soon the only ones who can make a profit are the big boys. They grow produce and manufacture in the countries where labour costs are lowest and then export to their chains in the countries where labour costs are high and there are large profits to be made.

 

This is why so many shops, jobs and ways of life are being destroyed.

 

The only solution if you want a Federal Europe is for all wages, taxes, benefits and laws to be the same. Then it is down to individual countries/areas work ethic.

 

Make no mistake about it, a Federal Europe will destroy the original members and allow the poorer eastern bloc to prosper. The one exception is Germany who have a wonderful patriotic attitude and also control the ECB and other essential parts of the EU allowing them to decide who get what in the way of hand outs.

 

As a side note, I never understood why a patriotic Englishman is a racist and everyone else is a Patriot?

 

 

[Grouse]

17 minutes ago, Flustered said:

It is happening under yours and others very eyes and is not noticeable.

 

It's part of the Global Market.

 

Take away all of the red tape and allow anyone to expand into other countries. Soon the only ones who can make a profit are the big boys. They grow produce and manufacture in the countries where labour costs are lowest and then export to their chains in the countries where labour costs are high and there are large profits to be made.

 

This is why so many shops, jobs and ways of life are being destroyed.

 

The only solution if you want a Federal Europe is for all wages, taxes, benefits and laws to be the same. Then it is down to individual countries/areas work ethic.

 

Make no mistake about it, a Federal Europe will destroy the original members and allow the poorer eastern bloc to prosper. The one exception is Germany who have a wonderful patriotic attitude and also control the ECB and other essential parts of the EU allowing them to decide who get what in the way of hand outs.

 

As a side note, I never understood why a patriotic Englishman is a racist and everyone else is a Patriot?

 

 

I think globalisation is another issue. At least the EU enforces environmental, food safety and employment laws to level the playing field somewhat.

 

Engishmen/patriots/racists; may I direct the honourable gentleman to Thursday's question time? Observe the audience .....

 

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Grouse

[7by7]

20 hours ago, nontabury said:

I think we will have to agree to disagree on what W.C would have thought of this 

so called Union.

Interesting article.

 

How much is actual fact, and how much is made up?

 

We have already seen how the Brexit campaign lied when they stated he said something in Parliament on a specific date when he clearly didn't as there is no record of it in Hansard.

 

Your article claims he said something in Parliament; but gives no date. Can you provide one so we can check Hansard? After all, the Brexit camp have already been proven to lie about what Churchill said in Parliament.

 

Maybe you can also provide links to at least one of the speeches the article claims he made: I can't find any.

 

Did come across this 1996 article, though: A Euro-sceptic? Churchill? Never.

Quote

I knew Winston Churchill, I worked with him, I stayed with him at his home at Chartwell and I have read his speeches many times. I can assure you that Winston Churchill was no Euro-sceptic..........

 

I readily accept that at that time Churchill did not envisage Britain being a full member of this united Europe, but in gleefully seizing upon this point, Euro-sceptics have misunderstood or misrepresented the nature of Churchill's attitude to full British participation in Europe. This reluctance was based on circumstance; it was not opposition based on principle. And the circumstances have changed in such a way that I am sure Churchill would now favour a policy that enabled Britain to be at the heart of the European Union.

As that article says, and as I said earlier, Churchill's original belief that the UK should not be part of any European Union was based upon the Empire and Commonwealth.

Quote

Churchill was reluctant to embrace full British membership of the European Community only because he believed that Britain was the central pillar of a triumvirate for the maintenance of world order consisting of the Commonwealth as a unit, the United States and a united Europe,

This was a grand vision of Britain's role in the world, but Churchill recognised that it was wholly dependent on the realities of power. It could only work if the Commonwealth was a powerful political unit and if Britain could exercise significant influence over both Europe and the United States.

But circumstances changed; the Empire died, the Commonwealth was not the unified organisation many hoped it would be.

Quote

In these circumstances, Britain could only continue playing the role in the world that Churchill had envisaged by joining the European Community. Churchill himself recognised this fact in a letter to his constituency chairman in August 1961, in which he declared, "I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community."

 But whatever Churchill's views were; the die is cast.

 

For good or ill, the UK is set on a course and there is no turning back.

Edited March 4, 2017 by 7by7

[7by7]

16 hours ago, Richard W said:

21 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Succeeding in some way? Probably.

 

Achieving the same, or better, level of prosperity than had we remained in the EU? We will have to wait and see; but I doubt it. Which is why I voted to remain.

 

But the die is cast, and all we can hope for is the best future possible outside the EU.

And not for any nobler reason?  I think that is why the leavers won.

 

Please explain why voting Remain because I believed the UK would be more prosperous in than out is in any way ignoble.

[Flustered]

28 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Engishmen/patriots/racists; may I direct the honourable gentleman to Thursday's question time? Observe the audience .....

 

 

Apart from making me sit through some 30 minutes before the part you refer to came up, all I could see was the usual BBC bias to wards a left luvvie audience with a very articulate man putting some old has been Lib Dem (who I have actually met a few time in my athletic youth) in his place (Meng even thinks the word foreigner is politically incorrect.......amazing. and then the guy with a Russian wife nailed home the coffin.

 

Shame the rest of the audience had to boo...typical lefty activist attitude.

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Apart from making me sit through some 30 minutes before the part you refer to came up, all I could see was the usual BBC bias to wards a left luvvie audience with a very articulate man putting some old has been Lib Dem (who I have actually met a few time in my athletic youth) in his place (Meng even thinks the word foreigner is politically incorrect.......amazing. and then the guy with a Russian wife nailed home the coffin.

 

Shame the rest of the audience had to boo...typical lefty activist attitude.

Did you not think it was shameful? I was embarrassed!

 

The country is REALLY divided. There are various parameters but the division line is roughly the same.

[Flustered]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Did you not think it was shameful? I was embarrassed!

 

The country is REALLY divided. There are various parameters but the division line is roughly the same.

For me, the shameful part is the way the BBC pick the audience and the politicians/celebs they invite on.

 

The classic one was on the election debate in 2015 that included Nigel Farage.

 

I cannot remember how many were on but I think it was 6 people. excluding the Tories.

 

The BBC said the audience was representative of the members of the debate. 5 left wing and 1 right wing. Over 83% of the audience were left wing supporters. That is BBC bias for you.

 

A bit like the Benny Hill Chinese restaurant gag that included a rabbit and horse pie. 50% rabbit and 50% horse or as Chow Mein (Benny Hill) says, 1 rabbit 1 horse.

 

Very balanced I don't think.

 

[Grouse]

Flustered, you are clearly a knowledgeable, well educated chap!

 

How is that we find ourselves on opposite sides of the great divide?

 

My father was involved with Bletchley and the Y service but spent several years at Guetesloh.

 

You obviously are a Europhile even though you don't like the EU. I'm sure you also appreciate a Spitzen Pils!

 

What does it all mean ??

[billd766]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

I was stationed at RAF Laarbruch in the early 70's but of course only you have a valid opinion.

 

I was stationed at RAF Widenrath in 1973 to 76 so we were almost neighbours. No passport really required as my NATO travel permit got me almost everywhere except France. French food and wine was crap compared to Germany, Holland and Belgium.

[citybiker]

For me, the shameful part is the way the BBC pick the audience and the politicians/celebs they invite on.
 
The classic one was on the election debate in 2015 that included Nigel Farage.
 
I cannot remember how many were on but I think it was 6 people. excluding the Tories.
 
The BBC said the audience was representative of the members of the debate. 5 left wing and 1 right wing. Over 83% of the audience were left wing supporters. That is BBC bias for you.
 
A bit like the Benny Hill Chinese restaurant gag that included a rabbit and horse pie. 50% rabbit and 50% horse or as Chow Mein (Benny Hill) says, 1 rabbit 1 horse.
 
Very balanced I don't think.
 

The BBC has history of poor audience filtering on just one programme for example Question Time.

Although, fair play to Dimbers as the Host & referee since Brexit gripped the UK.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Flustered]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

My father was involved with Bletchley and the Y service but spent several years at Guetesloh.

 

You obviously are a Europhile even though you don't like the EU. I'm sure you also appreciate a Spitzen Pils!

 

If you look at what unit was at Scheuen, you will understand why I cannot comment any further on my time in Germany. Although based at Scheun, my work was at Wesendorf.

 

Yes I am a Europhile. I would love the UK to stay in the EEC as was but I do not believe that political union is wise or helpful.

 

People like Junkers will destroy the EU with his dreams of unification. Of course he wants unification, he is from a tiny country and now he finds himself in an important position. He hates anyone who opposes his views which is why we have to come out.

 

Decisions must be made by a democratically elected Parliament, not by bureaucrats.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Flustered

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I was stationed at RAF Widenrath in 1973 to 76 so we were almost neighbours. No passport really required as my NATO travel permit got me almost everywhere except France. French food and wine was crap compared to Germany, Holland and Belgium.

Yes Bill, about the same time, I went out mid 72 and came back end of 74, worked on Buccaneers. Venlo was the nearest big town to us and many went there to do their shopping, real pain getting through border control, they were always on the lookout for fresh produce which was prohibited. Great days though, it was 11.4 DM to the pound when I arrived, about 5 by the time I left. Just a pity the pound is not worth 5 times the German currency today. 

[billd766]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

Yes Bill, about the same time, I went out mid 72 and came back end of 74, worked on Buccaneers. Venlo was the nearest big town to us and many went there to do their shopping, real pain getting through border control, they were always on the lookout for fresh produce which was prohibited. Great days though, it was 11.4 DM to the pound when I arrived, about 5 by the time I left. Just a pity the pound is not worth 5 times the German currency today. 

 

Don't forget the duty frees or the BP coupons for fuel. Buying vodka in the NAAFI shop to put in the screen washer bottle of the car in winter as it didn't freeze.

 

I used to run the tea bar and once a week I went to Roermond on a shopping trip for Dutch frikandelles and stuff. We used to pop over the border somewhere to a bar and make phone calls to the UK as it was about 50% of the price from Germany.

 

I have looked at Wildenrath on Google Earth and Siemens are using a lot of it as ta railway test track.

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Don't forget the duty frees or the BP coupons for fuel. Buying vodka in the NAAFI shop to put in the screen washer bottle of the car in winter as it didn't freeze.

 

I used to run the tea bar and once a week I went to Roermond on a shopping trip for Dutch frikandelles and stuff. We used to pop over the border somewhere to a bar and make phone calls to the UK as it was about 50% of the price from Germany.

 

I have looked at Wildenrath on Google Earth and Siemens are using a lot of it as ta railway test track.

Fond memories Bill. On a cold winters nightshift, not uncommon to see a few car bonnets going up and down.

Laarbruch became Weeze airport and as it happens I have heard today that Ryanair will stop the Stanstead to Weeze service from the end of this month. They took a bit of a hit following the referendum.

http://www.essexlive.news/ryanair-to-cut-stansted-airport-flights-following-brexit-result/story-29548509-detail/story.html

[Grouse]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-theresa-may-plan-leave-eu-no-plan-uk-public-oppose-prime-minister-a7614526.html%3Famp

 

Take back Control!

 

From TM and return sovereignty to parliament and the people!

[Laughing Gravy]

As soon as I read the poll was commissioned by the independent newspaper, all credibility went out the window.

 

It was an online poll which makes it even more dubious. The independent is really sinking low to grab headlines on a poll it has done itself.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Laughing Gravy

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

As soon as I read the poll was commissioned by the independent newspaper, all credibility went out the window.

 

It was an online poll which makes it even more dubious. The independent is really sinking low to grab headlines on a poll it has done itself.

Sorry, I should have checked Breitbart!

 

I guess you hold similar views to Trump concerning media?

 

It makes me snigger the way you Brexiteers HATE our parliament having any say. 

[Laughing Gravy]

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry, I should have checked Breitbart!

 

I guess you hold similar views to Trump concerning media?

 

It makes me snigger the way you Brexiteers HATE our parliament having any say. 

Your guess is wrong but I do remember that you have slated papers like the express before. You have to admit that a poll online by the paper is hardly credible.

 

Parliament is having its say but what I don't agree is that they are trying to undermine the PM's positioning on getting the best deal for the UK.

 

[Khun Han]

39 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

As soon as I read the poll was commissioned by the independent newspaper, all credibility went out the window.

 

It was an online poll which makes it even more dubious. The independent is really sinking low to grab headlines on a poll it has done itself.

 

Gravy, you have to understand that the remainers 'we have accepted brexit' mantra is a sham, a distraction. They are doing everything they can think of to undermine brexit, and the large sections of media that support them are doing their bit too. Thankfully, we appear to have a Prime Minister who sees through these scams and is determined to carry out a genuine brexit.

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

As soon as I read the poll was commissioned by the independent newspaper, all credibility went out the window.

 

It was an online poll which makes it even more dubious. The independent is really sinking low to grab headlines on a poll it has done itself.

The poll was conducted by BMG research, who have in the past been featured by Sunday Express

http://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/scots-opposed-second-referendum/

[Grouse]

No, entirely incorrect

 

TM doesn't give a damn about what's best for the country as a whole. She cares only about the Con Party.

 

WE, however, want what is best for our economy in general.

 

Parliament MUST have the final say.

 

I fear that what the Con Party REALLY want is a low cost, low tax, low benefit state which will be great for some but awful for most ( including, Ironically, the numpties and Cornwall)