May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

You missed it again!

Why don't you enlighten us all? 

[nauseus]

12 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Why don't you enlighten us all? 

Too busy sippin Leo.

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Too busy sippin Leo.

And wasting people's time?

[billd766]

13 hours ago, Johnyo said:

 

 

 

The future PM of the U.K. How can anyone take this woman seriously? She is not going to the debate because she is thinking about Brexit!! You cons really buy this crap???

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

How can anyone take you seriously? She has done far more for the country than you have or ever will.

 

She has been the MP for Maidenhead since 1997 and although she lost votes (but still won the seat) in the 1997 and 2001 elections she regained them in the 2005 election and increased her votes in 2010 and 2015.

 

If you are so smart and so good why don't you stand for election in the UK and see how many votes you get?

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

How can anyone take you seriously? She has done far more for the country than you have or ever will.

 

She has been the MP for Maidenhead since 1997 and although she lost votes (but still won the seat) in the 1997 and 2001 elections she regained them in the 2005 election and increased her votes in 2010 and 2015.

 

If you are so smart and so good why don't you stand for election in the UK and see how many votes you get?

 

That's an answer? What about her dad being bigger than Johnyo's dad? 

 

It was a fair point to raise ... if this country is going to go through the biggest change in decades why is May terrified of debating her position? "Brexit means Brexit" is not much of an argument ... neither is a "red, white and blue" Brexit ... meaningless tosh just like "no deal is better than a bad deal" ... the truth is that "the deal" was always going to be "bad" ... and that's why she failed to back Leave to begin with. 

 

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

And wasting people's time?

OK I'll try and explain but this might be tricky for you:

 

19 hours ago, jpinx said:

With the benefit of hindsight it is clear that the EU should have been better thought out than it actually was.  Brexit has highlighted many flaws in the structure, the currency, joining and leaving requirements, etc, etc.  If the EU had sat down and shown serious intent to reform these fundamentals, UK would probably not be leaving.  This points to the personal attitudes of the politicians and beaurocrats as being the driving force behind EU expansion-ism, not the "will of the people".

 

Then you said : I loathe the expression "will of the people" ... it refers to about 30% of the population, and quite frankly is a nonsense description of a vote where 48% opposed the decision and those that voted for it were predominantly anti-immigration protesters. I'd liken the vote to the X Factor or Britain's Got Talent ... two years later no one can remember who the winner was or why anyone voted for them. 

 

Now I say: you bypassed the essence of a very sensible post, to go to straight the quotation "will of the people. The point of the post was to show the lack of willingness by the EU bureaucrats to consider any meaningful reform - but you totally ignore that (probably because it's true) and go straight into a rant about UK referendum voting percentages. This has been thrashed to death over the last 12 months and so it is you who is the time-waster. Revive yourself with a Chang, you'll fell better!

[AlexRich]

13 minutes ago, nauseus said:

OK I'll try and explain but this might be tricky for you:

 

19 hours ago, jpinx said:

With the benefit of hindsight it is clear that the EU should have been better thought out than it actually was.  Brexit has highlighted many flaws in the structure, the currency, joining and leaving requirements, etc, etc.  If the EU had sat down and shown serious intent to reform these fundamentals, UK would probably not be leaving.  This points to the personal attitudes of the politicians and beaurocrats as being the driving force behind EU expansion-ism, not the "will of the people".

 

Then you said : I loathe the expression "will of the people" ... it refers to about 30% of the population, and quite frankly is a nonsense description of a vote where 48% opposed the decision and those that voted for it were predominantly anti-immigration protesters. I'd liken the vote to the X Factor or Britain's Got Talent ... two years later no one can remember who the winner was or why anyone voted for them. 

 

Now I say: you bypassed the essence of a very sensible post, to go to straight the quotation "will of the people. The point of the post was to show the lack of willingness by the EU bureaucrats to consider any meaningful reform - but you totally ignore that (probably because it's true) and go straight into a rant about UK referendum voting percentages. This has been thrashed to death over the last 12 months and so it is you who is the time-waster. Revive yourself with a Chang, you'll fell better!

 

I already answered that question in the later post ... the one you've quoted refers only to the "will of the people" comment, a phrase which I'm heartily sick of ... as I explained I don't have to go through a post point by point ... is there a rule that says that I do? Of course not.

 

In the follow up (for your benefit) I stated that even some EU politicians would like reforms. Also, did it ever cross your mind that many of the EU's voters don't seek those reforms that you refer to? When you are involved in a 28 country agreement there will never be a set of rules that everyone is satisfied with. The question is do the benefits outweigh the costs ... and I, like many others in Europe, believe that they do. You stay in the club and work with like minded people for your point of view, you don't cut your nose of to spite your face. Brexit was a Pyrrhic victory ... and the future generations will pay the cost.  

 

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

I already answered that question in the later post ... the one you've quoted refers only to the "will of the people" comment, a phrase which I'm heartily sick of ... as I explained I don't have to go through a post point by point ... is there a rule that says that I do? Of course not.

 

In the follow up (for your benefit) I stated that even some EU politicians would like reforms. Also, did it ever cross your mind that many of the EU's voters don't seek those reforms that you refer to? When you are involved in a 28 country agreement there will never be a set of rules that everyone is satisfied with. The question is do the benefits outweigh the costs ... and I, like many others in Europe, believe that they do. You stay in the club and work with like minded people for your point of view, you don't cut your nose of to spite your face. Brexit was a Pyrrhic victory ... and the future generations will pay the cost.  

 

I saw the follow-up. That some EU politicians would like reforms is all very well but they are powerless against their bureaucratic chiefs in the commission, who are selected but not elected. Yes, 28 countries will rarely reach agreement and that's why the EU makes little real progress.

 

Unlike yourself, the big question for many of us is: do you want to lose your country?  I, like many others do not!  If the EU had been properly structured, with pragmatic and acceptable aims and reform along the way it might have worked out OK. But it was sold as a common market in the 1970's, when the real intention was to federalize Europe, with Germany in control. This was never acceptable to me and, obviously now, is not acceptable to many others.  

 

The Brexit result was the result an honest vote. Many of the older voters that are complained about so much saw a chance to correct the 1975 error. At least the future of future British kids will be in their own British hands.   

[AlexRich]

41 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I saw the follow-up. That some EU politicians would like reforms is all very well but they are powerless against their bureaucratic chiefs in the commission, who are selected but not elected. Yes, 28 countries will rarely reach agreement and that's why the EU makes little real progress.

 

Unlike yourself, the big question for many of us is: do you want to lose your country?  I, like many others do not!  If the EU had been properly structured, with pragmatic and acceptable aims and reform along the way it might have worked out OK. But it was sold as a common market in the 1970's, when the real intention was to federalize Europe, with Germany in control. This was never acceptable to me and, obviously now, is not acceptable to many others.  

 

The Brexit result was the result an honest vote. Many of the older voters that are complained about so much saw a chance to correct the 1975 error. At least the future of future British kids will be in their own British hands.   

 

The UK has its own defence, sets its own taxes, operates its own currency and makes it's own decisions in the world ... the idea that anyone has lost their country is pretty ridiculous ... the future of British kids has been hamstrung by an older generation who have through their selfishness reduced their life possibilities and burdened them with an ageing populace to pay for whilst navigating a job market that will be increasingly difficult for them due to robotics and a declining working population. Not for sovereignty or bendy bananas ... for the most part because they don't want to see immigrants on their streets during their twilight years. 

 

This vote was about immigration ... but no one wants to admit that ... so we get all this nonsense about sovereignty and trading with the world (like we don't do that already?). More tosh.

[uptheos]

9 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The SDP ceased to exist some time ago but Lord Owen would no doubt appreciate your gesture. As for a possible coalition, this would be a throwback to the horse-trading 2 elections ago when Brown tried to put something together for Labour but failed and instead we got the Tory/LDP coalition. Now such a coalition repeat is not on the table precisely because of Brexit and if you think that Labour can this time put together its own coalition good luck with that given that the LDP and the SNP would make very specific demands re a re-run of both the referendum and Scottish independence. Everything in the air and the pound down the drain. If for one moment you really think Corbyn is going to win run, run to TT Exchange and get rid of your pounds.

Where did  I say Corbyn will win? I said, I think May will win but its entirely possible that she cant't get a majority to form a government,  Read the post properly.

[dick dasterdly]

On 5/31/2017 at 2:52 PM, AlexRich said:

 

Greeks are not poor because of the EU, they are poor because their government cheated their way onto a single currency that they were not qualified to join, and used that relatively stronger EU currency to go on a debt binge ... add to that a reluctance to enforce tax rules and a corrupt political culture and it only takes a financial crisis to create the chaos that is now Greece. 

 

The UK, on the other hand, retained its own currency, raised and collected its own taxes, and prospered within the single market, whatever its faults. But we prefer the good old days when we were much poorer ... "roll out the barrel"!

 

Hang on a minute - the EU knew (and media pointed out) that figures were being 'fudged' to allow Greece into the EU!

 

Apologies if this has already been pointed out - I tend to start from where I left off, and continue from there.

Edited June 1, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

I already answered that question in the later post ... the one you've quoted refers only to the "will of the people" comment, a phrase which I'm heartily sick of ... as I explained I don't have to go through a post point by point ... is there a rule that says that I do? Of course not.

 

In the follow up (for your benefit) I stated that even some EU politicians would like reforms. Also, did it ever cross your mind that many of the EU's voters don't seek those reforms that you refer to? When you are involved in a 28 country agreement there will never be a set of rules that everyone is satisfied with. The question is do the benefits outweigh the costs ... and I, like many others in Europe, believe that they do. You stay in the club and work with like minded people for your point of view, you don't cut your nose of to spite your face. Brexit was a Pyrrhic victory ... and the future generations will pay the cost.  

 

To some it is all as clear as mud. There are some reforms of the EU that everyone in Europe is in favour of, but the problem has absolutely nothing to do with the commission, just another myth.

The real problem stems from what is entrenched in treaties and no one wants to suggest rewriting the treaties. It would be like another brexit, no one would have any idea where it would end up.

[sandyf]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Hang on a minute - the EU (and media pointed out) that figures were being 'fudged' to allow Greece into the EU!

 

Apologies if this has already been pointed out - I tend to start from where I left off, and continue from there.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say.

Greece supposedly qualified in 2000 and entered the EU on Jan 2001. It wasn't until the latter part of 2004 that the creative accounting came to light.

 

ATHENS, Sept. 22 - Greece confessed Wednesday to having repeatedly misrepresented significant economic data before it joined the European currency union, prompting suggestions that it might not have qualified had the true figures been known.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/23/world/europe/greece-admits-faking-data-to-join-europe.html?_r=0

[dick dasterdly]

22 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

I loathe the expression "will of the people" ... it refers to about 30% of the population, and quite frankly is a nonsense description of a vote where 48% opposed the decision and those that voted for it were predominantly anti-immigration protesters. I'd liken the vote to the X Factor or Britain's Got Talent ... two years later no one can remember who the winner was or why anyone voted for them. 

Nothing wrong with the poorer UK segement of society becoming "anti-immigration protesters".

 

They've had enough of even poorer immigrants being allowed into the country,  and thereby reducing salaries for everyone - apart from those at the top of course.....

[dick dasterdly]

19 hours ago, SheungWan said:

I think you will find in the United Republic of Pattaya that members of the People's Popular Front for Brexit never ever turn on the air-con unless completely desperate and as for beer the tipple of choice would be Leo. Sip, sip.

Thank you for that ridiculous and (clearly) unbiased slur on the character of anyone that disagrees with your view on this subject.....

[pitrevie]

15 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Nothing wrong with the poorer UK segement of society becoming "anti-immigration protesters".

 

They've had enough of even poorer immigrants being allowed into the country,  and thereby reducing salaries for everyone - apart from those at the top of course.....

where is the evidence for that statement?

[dick dasterdly]

14 hours ago, mommysboy said:

In becoming so obsessed with the phoney Brexit war, the Tory party is losing any grip it had on the economy.

 

That said, and even though Corbyn is increasingly impressive, I think the Cons will win at a canter, because for some inexplicable reason hordes of English working class people have this insane belief in corporate Britain delivering them the life of their dreams; youd have thought they'd know better by now.

I know what you mean about the "phoney Brexit war" as, let's be honest - all politicians and money markets would prefer the UK stay within the EU.

 

Agree entirely with "for some inexplicable reason hordes of English working class people have this insane belief in corporate Britain delivering them the life of their dreams; youd have thought they'd know better by now." 

 

It appears that they've finally woken up to this slightly - hence the brexit vote.

[dick dasterdly]

14 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

like many similar Thais they have been barinwashed to doff their caps at their 'betters and elders" I'm afarid.

And yet they ignored their "betters and elders"  and voted for brexit.

[dick dasterdly]

36 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Not quite sure what you are trying to say.

Greece supposedly qualified in 2000 and entered the EU on Jan 2001. It wasn't until the latter part of 2004 that the creative accounting came to light.

 

ATHENS, Sept. 22 - Greece confessed Wednesday to having repeatedly misrepresented significant economic data before it joined the European currency union, prompting suggestions that it might not have qualified had the true figures been known.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/23/world/europe/greece-admits-faking-data-to-join-europe.html?_r=0

Perhaps my memory is playing up - but I could have sworn the the media was pointing out before Greece joined the EU, that figures were being fudged.

 

Assuming my memory is wrong - its incomprehensible that the EU didn't already know that Greece was 'misrepresenting significant economic data'.  If the EU didn't realise this, they were even more incompetent than previously thought.....

[jpinx]

58 minutes ago, sandyf said:

To some it is all as clear as mud. There are some reforms of the EU that everyone in Europe is in favour of, but the problem has absolutely nothing to do with the commission, just another myth.

The real problem stems from what is entrenched in treaties and no one wants to suggest rewriting the treaties. It would be like another brexit, no one would have any idea where it would end up.

This is very true.  Politicians are the least capable people for planning the future, given that their terms in power are kept short by the democratic process.  So many things need sorting out it'd be hard to know where to start.  How about the electoral system as a starting point?   History is littered with badly written treaties, full of terms that only applied "in the moment" and had no exit clause, usually inspired by the possibility of short term financial and political gain with little regard for the long term.   TM's recent pensioners proposals and the prompt U-turn are a classic example of this muddled and short-term thinking.

 

 

[AlexRich]

56 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Nothing wrong with the poorer UK segement of society becoming "anti-immigration protesters".

 

They've had enough of even poorer immigrants being allowed into the country,  and thereby reducing salaries for everyone - apart from those at the top of course.....

It strikes me more that our lazy and feckless benefits scroungers were scared of the competition from immigrants ... coming over here taking our council houses and muscling in on our life on the dole. The irony being that the majority of immigrants work and pay taxes to fund their lifestyle.

[dick dasterdly]

27 minutes ago, jpinx said:

This is very true.  Politicians are the least capable people for planning the future, given that their terms in power are kept short by the democratic process.  So many things need sorting out it'd be hard to know where to start.  How about the electoral system as a starting point?   History is littered with badly written treaties, full of terms that only applied "in the moment" and had no exit clause, usually inspired by the possibility of short term financial and political gain with little regard for the long term.   TM's recent pensioners proposals and the prompt U-turn are a classic example of this muddled and short-term thinking.

 

 

Its impossible to 'sort out' as those we would like in power have no interest in power, and only those we would least like (because they are so concerned about power) - pursue this path!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

I know what you mean about the "phoney Brexit war" as, let's be honest - all politicians and money markets would prefer the UK stay within the EU.

 

Agree entirely with "for some inexplicable reason hordes of English working class people have this insane belief in corporate Britain delivering them the life of their dreams; youd have thought they'd know better by now." 

 

It appears that they've finally woken up to this slightly - hence the brexit vote.

I'm sure Hyacinth Bucket voted Conservative. So much more middle class, don't you know!

[dick dasterdly]

29 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

It strikes me more that our lazy and feckless benefits scroungers were scared of the competition from immigrants ... coming over here taking our council houses and muscling in on our life on the dole. The irony being that the majority of immigrants work and pay taxes to fund their lifestyle.

Probably a good time to explain why some of us were luckier (and therefore have good pension provisions) feel the same way having seen salaries at the bottom of the scale continually eroded over the last few decades?

 

To be fair, this isn't entirely due to open immigration - but it certainly hasn't helped!

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'm sure Hyacinth Bucket voted Conservative. So much more middle class, don't you know!

You think Hyacinth Bucket would have voted anything other than 'remain'???

 

But I'm kicking myself for responding to such a ridiculous post.

Edited June 1, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

In my defense, I'm extremely pissed and responding to that comment made me realise it was time to 'get out of here'!

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

In my defense, I'm extremely pissed and responding to that comment made me realise it was time to 'get out of here'!

 

But ... strangely more coherent than most Brexiteers on here? 

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

The UK has its own defence, sets its own taxes, operates its own currency and makes it's own decisions in the world ... the idea that anyone has lost their country is pretty ridiculous ... the future of British kids has been hamstrung by an older generation who have through their selfishness reduced their life possibilities and burdened them with an ageing populace to pay for whilst navigating a job market that will be increasingly difficult for them due to robotics and a declining working population. Not for sovereignty or bendy bananas ... for the most part because they don't want to see immigrants on their streets during their twilight years. 

 

This vote was about immigration ... but no one wants to admit that ... so we get all this nonsense about sovereignty and trading with the world (like we don't do that already?). More tosh.

Immigration was second on my list after sovereignty and I've said that here before.

 

Any nation staying in this dubious "union", unless there is serious and major reform, will probably shortly lose control of its military, tax system, foreign policy, currency and other assets. The youngsters will lose their birthright to be free British or whatever. These oldies with any vision are actually trying to protect the kids from this. 

 

"Burdened them with an ageing populace to pay for" is a very cruel statement and can be only the opinion of a thoughtless, thankless individual. Snowflake kids, like those interviewed on TV after the referendum (but mainly in London), have the same outlook. But who will care for them in future years when nobody gives a poop at all?  

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by nauseus

[beautifulthailand99]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

And yet they ignored their "betters and elders"  and voted for brexit.

fair point - but the British Establishment is a much more sophisticated , well oiled engine of progress compared to the military dictatorship and business interests which is Thailand.  Which has also had to accomodate 'the will of the people' over the centuries or risk destruiction.

[beautifulthailand99]

15 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Immigration was second on my list after sovereignty and I've said that here before.

 

Any nation staying in this dubious "union", unless there is serious and major reform, will probably shortly lose control of its military, tax system, foreign policy, currency and other assets. The youngsters will lose their birthright to be free British or whatever. These oldies with any vision are actually trying to protect the kids from this. 

 

"Burdened them with an ageing populace to pay for" is a very cruel statement and can be only the opinion of a thoughtless, thankless individual. Snowflake kids, like those interviewed on TV after the referendum (but mainly in London), have the same outlook. But who will care for them in future year when nobody gives a poop at all?  

 

 

 

 

There is no such thing as 'free British' - you are not free not to pay your taxes , not free to settle land you don't own , not free to withold your children from the dictates of the state , or drive a car without a licence.  And last time I looked just 5 families owned 10% of the nations wealth. This myth that free of the EU 'we' will be masters of our own destiny - is just that a myth. We are born free but are everywhere in chains. And in the end is probably to settle for the best deal that promises peace and prosperity. Brexit offers neither and I lay the blame firmly at the foot of Etonian Cameron's feet who has played fast and loose with the stability of the UK for a short term political position which turned out he didn't even need. There are a lot of good people who voted Brexit , I'm sure , but whatever happens you won't be getting some heady 'freedom' anytime soon I'm afraid.