May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Not sure how you measure "great" US presidents, but the last one not having a "higher education" was Harry S. Truman.

Really?  Is that your total knowledge of American Presidents - or your total capabilities with Google?  You need to talk to Grouse who will give you the benefit of his vastly superior education.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I and my friends are still the future. I still believe I have another 40 years plus to contribute to the world. Just as someone say reaches 40, it doesn't mean they are not the future. We all are.

 

I have 2 degrees ( proper ones) AND I'm over 60. So where does that leave me, Gravy? All that real world experience, all that education, but not so much future! I'm pro remain but consider my children (4) and grandchildren (3)....

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, SgtRock said:

Another headache has just reared its ugly for the EU. Or is that just another nail in it's coffin ?

 

 

 

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-26/swiss-president-expects-immigration-plan-referendum-challenge-ivzgefr8

 

Officials in Brussels have said '' the agreements cannot be renegotiated ''

 

Is that another example of the great decisive leadership that the EU shows, or simply another head in the sand approach ?

 

This WILL be interesting! IF the EU modify the free movement "pillar" will that effect the Brexit situation? May trigger another referendum ?

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Yes I do and have not said otherwise. Do you not understand my point? Having a university degree does not make you better informed on the referendum.

 

You seem to confuse a university EDUCATION with training for a specific job. I guess you couldn't be expected to know the difference. ?

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, jpinx said:

What utter garbage.  How many of the great US presidents managed perfectly well without "higher education" in the form of whatever degree?  Education is absolutely NO guarantee of commonsense - in fact it is usually the other way around.  Hence the incessant infantile bleatings of the "educated" remainers who can not accept democracy.

 

Fabulous! All together in the same lick net!

 

I think you should think through my point a little more thoroughly.

 

How do you explain the fact that the majority of remainers are better educated and more successful generally?

 

I'm sorry that you are so blinkered that you can not consider any other viewpoint or angle....

[jpinx]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

You seem to confuse a university EDUCATION with training for a specific job. I guess you couldn't be expected to know the difference. ?

A university education without a degree implies a failure? ...or a society dropout?  Training for what specific job will make you a more "intelligent" voter?  Really -- there is some seriously smelly garbage being spouted in this thread by some people who are deluded by their own sense of self-importance.  

[jpinx]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Fabulous! All together in the same lick net!

 

I think you should think through my point a little more thoroughly.

 

How do you explain the fact that the majority of remainers are better educated and more successful generally?

 

I'm sorry that you are so blinkered that you can not consider any other viewpoint or angle....

The blinkers are on you, my friend   How did you measure the "success" (or otherwise) of the remainers?  As has been said many times -- Education is no guarantee of common sense, usually the opposite.  If every university graduate was a "success" - does that promote stacking shelves in a supermarket to some level of a profession?

[AlexRich]

3 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the older generation are responsible for the UK's debt crisis ?

 

The people most responsible for the UK's debt crisis are successive Government who could not see beyond the timescale of a fixed Parliament and did not plan for the future.

 

I would hazard a guess that not many pensioners would have had any input into the State Pension triple lock.

 

Are you forgetting that the older generation went through the pain of sky high interest rates and came out the other side. Swings and roundabouts.

 

As a UK taxpayer, and I will be to the day I die. You are very much mistaken, myself, and every other person who is in the same boat as me, are indeed, part of the UK's future.

 

I am more than willing to extract myself from the UK's future in return for the Government giving up the right to tax me.

 

The crippling debts (that will have to be paid back by future generations of taxpayers) are and anchor around the necks of people who did not get to vote in the referendum. The young one's who did vote voted to stay. The older generation claim to be doing it for their grandkids ... that's a laugh ... when you are financially secure and you don't have much time to go you don't have to be concerned about whether the Brexit effects the economy or not. You simply don't care. I'm alright Jack!

 

I watched a vox pop of an old guy of around 90 who voted Brexit to 'get rid of the immigrants'? <deleted>? We need plenty of tax paying immigrants to help fund the future pension and medical requirements of the selfish older generation who voted for the calamity that is Brexit. 

 

 

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, jpinx said:

A university education without a degree implies a failure? ...or a society dropout?  Training for what specific job will make you a more "intelligent" voter?  Really -- there is some seriously smelly garbage being spouted in this thread by some people who are deluded by their own sense of self-importance.  

 

And so it continues. I'm trying to make the point that a university education provides much more than a paper qualification. Sorry you did not understand that. Several years immersed with bright people does have its benefits including being open to other view points. Collegiate universities are particularly good in this respect ?. 

 

BTW, there is quite a list of university drop outs who went on the achieve great things; Bill Gates for example.

[AlexRich]

3 hours ago, jpinx said:

That is probably the worst attempt to de-rail a conversation as I have seen in here -- and there's been some whoppers !

 

Whoppers?

 

[jpinx]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

And so it continues. I'm trying to make the point that a university education provides much more than a paper qualification. Sorry you did not understand that. Several years immersed with bright people does have its benefits including being open to other view points. Collegiate universities are particularly good in this respect ?. 

 

BTW, there is quite a list of university drop outs who went on the achieve great things; Bill Gates for example.

One of my previous tasks was to take these "educated university graduates" and try to make them fit into the real world.  It was uphill work, but highly gratifying when some of them eventually "got it" :)  A university education is no better than a tech college diploma, or a simple apprenticeship when it comes to the things that matter in life -- like who to vote for.   Most Uni grads come out with a sense of entitlement that makes them arrogant and self-important.  The ones that do well are usually the ones who spend a year or two stacking shelves because their chosen field does not have any openings for them. 

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

My point was twofold, and you appear to have missed them both.

 

1. If some sort of payoff is required by the EU, it is already parked in the ECB. Problem solved. Have it, we are walking away. Want anymore, then we will have a problem.

 

2. The 2nd reason was to highlight that the UK's membership, despite all white noise, does not cost £12 Billion a year less rebate. It costs a lot more, due to the hidden factors that were not, and never will be made public.

 

Funds to the ECB and the IMF being only 2 of them.

 

I would hate to have a true figure of what is actually paid out to the EU and subsidiary funds.

Of course, why didn't I realise the UK could pay off its debt with worthless shares.

I should also have also realised it would be perfectly normal if prone to exaggeration to see the UK contribution of 0.7 percent as an outrageous hidden cost buried on a public website.

 

There is little point pursuing this EU assassination, who are you trying to convince anyway, yourself? With this constant barrage of anti EU propaganda you obviously believe that if you shout loud enough others will take it in.

The damage to the UK is progressing steadily, only the extent now needs to be determined.

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, jpinx said:

The blinkers are on you, my friend   How did you measure the "success" (or otherwise) of the remainers?  As has been said many times -- Education is no guarantee of common sense, usually the opposite.  If every university graduate was a "success" - does that promote stacking shelves in a supermarket to some level of a profession?

 

Now you're being a silly Billy!

 

I have said right from the very start that the debate was complex, multi faceted. In contrast many Brexiteers can not accept any points made that do not agree with their mono agenda.

 

Sadly, and I guess you will accept this, encouraging so many young people down an academic route has degraded the value of some "degrees". That's what I meant by a "proper" degree.

 

Don't have such a chip on your shoulder though! When I went up to university only 4% of the population did so (fully funded).The point is, I learnt much more than quantum mechanics!

 

I was privileged, yes, but I am certainly not embarrassed by it. Fortunately, I did not have to spend all my time with other semi conductor physicists! Perish the thought!

 

Now, please can we get back to the topic?

[jpinx]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Now you're being a silly Billy!

 

I have said right from the very start that the debate was complex, multi faceted. In contrast many Brexiteers can not accept any points made that do not agree with their mono agenda.

 

Sadly, and I guess you will accept this, encouraging so many young people down an academic route has degraded the value of some "degrees". That's what I meant by a "proper" degree.

 

Don't have such a chip on your shoulder though! When I went up to university only 4% of the population did so (fully funded).The point is, I learnt much more than quantum mechanics!

 

I was privileged, yes, but I am certainly not embarrassed by it. Fortunately, I did not have to spend all my time with other semi conductor physicists! Perish the thought!

 

Now, please can we get back to the topic?

The narrowness of thinking is demonstrated by the comment on Brexiters having a "mono-agenda" -- implyin that the remainers have the credit for being "multi-faceted".  More like they are a bunch of two-faced, self-serving hypocrites....   Don't hide behind your olive branch -- answer the question. How did you measure the "success" (or otherwise) of the remainers?

Edited November 27, 2016 by jpinx

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, jpinx said:

One of my previous tasks was to take these "educated university graduates" and try to make them fit into the real world.  It was uphill work, but highly gratifying when some of them eventually "got it" :)  A university education is no better than a tech college diploma, or a simple apprenticeship when it comes to the things that matter in life -- like who to vote for.   Most Uni grads come out with a sense of entitlement that makes them arrogant and self-important.  The ones that do well are usually the ones who spend a year or two stacking shelves because their chosen field does not have any openings for them. 

 

Your comments only serve to highlight your own inferiority complex. Some, but not all, of those that never graduated from a University like to make themselves feel better by rubbishing those that did, with childish comments about stacking supermarket shelves. They are usually the same one's who are desperate for their children to attend one. Jealousy.

 

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, jpinx said:

One of my previous tasks was to take these "educated university graduates" and try to make them fit into the real world.  It was uphill work, but highly gratifying when some of them eventually "got it" :)  A university education is no better than a tech college diploma, or a simple apprenticeship when it comes to the things that matter in life -- like who to vote for.   Most Uni grads come out with a sense of entitlement that makes them arrogant and self-important.  The ones that do well are usually the ones who spend a year or two stacking shelves because their chosen field does not have any openings for them. 

 

Clearly you are beyond redemption. Sorry that you obviously have such a crippling inferiority complex ?

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Don't hide behind your olive branch -- answer the question. How did you measure the "success" (or otherwise) of the remainers?

 

My theory is that the relatively successful are more inclined toward the status quo.

 

How to measure success? Well how long do you have? Do you know about Maslow's staircase? Self actualisation? Acceptance by peers? 

 

It's certainly not having the most toys!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Grouse

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Your comments only serve to highlight your own inferiority complex. Some, but not all, of those that never graduated from a University like to make themselves feel better by rubbishing those that did, with childish comments about stacking supermarket shelves. They are usually the same one's who are desperate for their children to attend one. Jealousy.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Clearly you are beyond redemption. Sorry that you obviously have such a crippling inferiority complex ?

Ah-ha -- the first to play the "inferiority complex" card shows that he is down to the last gambit of his failed strategy.  Unlike the remainers here, I feel no need to demonstrate or advertise my qualifications or experience.  There is no need to support one side or another in this debate, it is sufficient for me to lambast the arrogance displayed by some of the posters. 

[SgtRock]

14 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The crippling debts (that will have to be paid back by future generations of taxpayers) are and anchor around the necks of people who did not get to vote in the referendum. The young one's who did vote voted to stay. The older generation claim to be doing it for their grandkids ... that's a laugh ... when you are financially secure and you don't have much time to go you don't have to be concerned about whether the Brexit effects the economy or not. You simply don't care. I'm alright Jack!

 

I watched a vox pop of an old guy of around 90 who voted Brexit to 'get rid of the immigrants'? <deleted>? We need plenty of tax paying immigrants to help fund the future pension and medical requirements of the selfish older generation who voted for the calamity that is Brexit. 

 

 

 

Does any of that address what I asked ? Which was:

 

Quote

Are you seriously suggesting that the older generation are responsible for the UK's debt crisis ?

 

The people most responsible for the UK's debt crisis are successive Government who could not see beyond the timescale of a fixed Parliament and did not plan for the future.

 

I would hazard a guess that not many pensioners would have had any input into the State Pension triple lock.

 

Are you forgetting that the older generation went through the pain of sky high interest rates and came out the other side. Swings and roundabouts.

 

As a UK taxpayer, and I will be to the day I die. You are very much mistaken, myself, and every other person who is in the same boat as me, are indeed, part of the UK's future.

 

I am more than willing to extract myself from the UK's future in return for the Government giving up the right to tax me.

 

Which came directly from here:

 

Quote

The same generation that have racked up the debt, triple locked their pensions and benefited greatly from property booms and company pensions vote for something that does not effect them financially ... and leave the younger generations in more straightened circumstances to clear up the mess. They are the future of the country, not you and your friends. 

 

No, it does not in any way address what I asked.

 

So why take the time to reply ?

[jpinx]

Just now, Grouse said:

 

My theory is that the relatively successful are more inclined toward the status quo.

 

How to measure success? Well how long do you have? Do you know about Maslov's staircase? Self fulfilment? Acceptance by peers? 

 

It's certainly not having the most toys!

 

 

A man is measured by the friends he has. 

[SgtRock]

It is now fairly obvious to me that is a concentrated effort to get this thread closed down.

 

It needs a liberal spraying with:

 

[sandyf]

17 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The crippling debts (that will have to be paid back by future generations of taxpayers) are and anchor around the necks of people who did not get to vote in the referendum. The young one's who did vote voted to stay. The older generation claim to be doing it for their grandkids ... that's a laugh ... when you are financially secure and you don't have much time to go you don't have to be concerned about whether the Brexit effects the economy or not. You simply don't care. I'm alright Jack!

 

I watched a vox pop of an old guy of around 90 who voted Brexit to 'get rid of the immigrants'? <deleted>? We need plenty of tax paying immigrants to help fund the future pension and medical requirements of the selfish older generation who voted for the calamity that is Brexit. 

 

 

That is a point that many are just completely unaware of, they just pay the tax oblivious as to how the liability is created.

In the last HMRC breakdown, 5% of income tax went on national debt interest as opposed to the 0.6% on the UK contribution to the EU Budget. Of course it was the EU budget that was seen as the financial millstone.

With the increase in public borrowing and the lack of confidence in the the UK, it is a foregoing certainty that the national debt interest will become a larger percentage of income tax and borne by a reducing number of taxpayers.

[SgtRock]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

How to measure success? Well how long do you have? Do you know about Maslov's staircase? Self fulfilment? Acceptance by peers? 

 

When you can get his name correct, I would ask you to come back and tell us all about Maslow and his hierarchy of needs.

 

But it is as off topic as your post.

 

Uni indeed 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jpinx]

 

5 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

It is now fairly obvious to me that is a concentrated effort to get this thread closed down.

 

It needs a liberal spraying with:

 

I tried to get it closed down a wee while ago - but no response.  Some people even suggested that it's better with 2 threads on the same topic.  Crazy stuff.

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, jpinx said:

A man is measured by the friends he has. 

 

Like the guy who buys drinks for everyone at the bar?

 

Or like Farage?

 

Let's drop it and agree to differ ?

[SgtRock]

29 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Of course, why didn't I realise the UK could pay off its debt with worthless shares.

I should also have also realised it would be perfectly normal if prone to exaggeration to see the UK contribution of 0.7 percent as an outrageous hidden cost buried on a public website.

 

There is little point pursuing this EU assassination, who are you trying to convince anyway, yourself? With this constant barrage of anti EU propaganda you obviously believe that if you shout loud enough others will take it in.

The damage to the UK is progressing steadily, only the extent now needs to be determined.

 

Sandy

 

What is this debt you speak  of ? You are under the impression that the UK will have to pay a financial penalty for leaving the EU.

 

So speak up man, put us all out of our misery, tell us all what it is. You are the only one that knows.

 

I will decide what I post, not you, and if the powers that be do not like, they will remove it.

 

Just for your info. It is not me trying to assassinate the EU. I provide links and sources not write and produce them. It seems to me that the EU do not need assassinated, they are sleeping walking towards committing suicide.

Edited November 27, 2016 by SgtRock
Typo

[jpinx]

7 minutes ago, sandyf said:

That is a point that many are just completely unaware of, they just pay the tax oblivious as to how the liability is created.

In the last HMRC breakdown, 5% of income tax went on national debt interest as opposed to the 0.6% on the UK contribution to the EU Budget. Of course it was the EU budget that was seen as the financial millstone.

With the increase in public borrowing and the lack of confidence in the the UK, it is a foregoing certainty that the national debt interest will become a larger percentage of income tax and borne by a reducing number of taxpayers.

According to the paper sent out with tax-coding, the figure for "welfare" was the biggest, followed by Health, State Pensions, Education, Defence, and then National Debt interest.  The government approves about twice as much on "Overseas Aid" as is contributed to the EU.  Everyone gets this information, so there is absolutely no mileage in trying to claim that people are unaware of it. 

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Like the guy who buys drinks for everyone at the bar?

 

Or like Farage?

 

Let's drop it and agree to differ ?

No - your definition of "friend" speaks volumes about you.  Now that your are exposed, you may retire, there is no need to agree to differ - a much abused oxymoron. 

[Grouse]

To try and pull this back on Topic...

 

I am postulating that May's mandate is largely supplied by people who are highly dissatisfied with the status quo. I think that is related to inequality. 

 

Those who have done better are more inclined to favour remaining.

 

I'm not saying ALL. Obviously there are a host of reasons for wanting to vote leave. However, with a more egalitarian society I don't think we would have seen the rise of UKIP and Brexit would not have come up as a serious issue.

[Orac]

To try and pull this back on Topic...
 
I am postulating that May's mandate is largely supplied by people who are highly dissatisfied with the status quo. I think that is related to inequality. 
 
Those who have done better are more inclined to favour remaining.
 
I'm not saying ALL. Obviously there are a host of reasons for wanting to vote leave. However, with a more egalitarian society I don't think we would have seen the rise of UKIP and Brexit would not have come up as a serious issue.

Possibly a given that those who have been successful and done well out of the current system wish to retain the status quo.

I do think the EU debate/referendum has highlighted some major structural differences within the UK but it is now overshadowing those internal UK problems and will distract from them being dealt with.

Interesting article a couple of days ago by Gordon Brown - not exactly my favourite politician but some interesting incites and figures here:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/uk-brexit-constitutional-convention-by-gordon-brown-2016-11