May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[SaintLouisBlues]

11 minutes ago, jpinx said:

More importantly -- how do *you* see the UK in 5 years time?

Off in the realms of fantasy are we? None of us have the faintest idea what a large polity like the UK will be like in two years' time, let alone five years time. It's only politicians who think like that - and they're always wrong. The consensus in 2005 was "more of the same", then the GFC came along, to take one simple example

[Loeilad]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

A sovereign country making its own rules and laws. Selectively choosing who can come and work in the country based on qualifications experience and availability. There are still 1.7 million people unemployed in the UK. Get them back working. I also want to change the culture that is prevalent at present with being scared to be British, English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish (Irish).  Frightened of saying anything against certain sectors of the people who are clearing using the UK's liberalism and goodwill who constantly play the racist card. Stop foreign aid going to countries that clearly do not need it. India doesn't need it when it spends billions on sending someone to space. Being allowed without penalty to trade with any country it chooses and increasing exports. Allowing people to become British Citizens who integrate and take a means test of suitability. I would envisage the UK to be an integral part of the world, as it still is but without being told by Brussels fat cats what and how to do it. I also want this for the other EU countries so their identity and cultures are not eroded.

 

That its for a start.

...and that just about sums it up for the average mentality of Brexiteers - and they expect to be taken seriously!

Edited December 5, 2016 by Loeilad

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Now this is a election that the majority of people have spoken for the whole country, not some poxy by election in Luvvy land (Richmond) that is so middle class and selective.

 

If there is one thing guaranteed to drive certain petty bourgeois elements beyond the M25 mad with resentment and jealousy its a successful middle class area such as Richmond, in London, to boot. Richmond is not really known as a luvvie area (too expensive for that), though it does have its own local theatre and is more famously known for the Crawdaddy where the Rolling Stones played in their early days. Actors by the way want to be nearer the centre of town and and Richmond is way out in Zone 4. One is more likely these days to find actors maybe living in East London or even South London where prices are more affordable (though even there have gone up big time) Wherever it is, they are unlikely to be found dead in the provinces, unless retired.

[SheungWan]

30 minutes ago, jpinx said:

More importantly -- how do *you* see the UK in 5 years time?

 

Hopefully not living in the past with your lot.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Now this is a election that the majority of people have spoken for the whole country, not some poxy by election in Luvvy land (Richmond) that is so middle class and selective.

 

4 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

If there is one thing guaranteed to drive certain petty bourgeois elements beyond the M25 mad with resentment and jealousy its a successful middle class area such as Richmond, in London, to boot. Richmond is not really known as a luvvie area (too expensive for that), though it does have its own local theatre and is more famously known for the Crawdaddy where the Rolling Stones played in their early days. Actors by the way want to be nearer the centre of town and and Richmond is way out in Zone 4. One is more likely these days to find actors maybe living in East London or even South London where prices are more affordable (though even there have gone up big time) Wherever it is, they are unlikely to be found dead in the provinces, unless retired.

So you agree that Richmond is far from representative - being a very wealthy constituency that voted strongly remain?

 

But this would be better discussed in the Richmond by-election thread.

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

It's a rejection of Renzi, not a rejection of the EU ... as bad as Brexit will be for the UK, the Italians would create chaos for themselves ... and unfortunately the UK ... we are not in a protective bubble.

 

You really say some of the strangest of things  and certainly leave yourself open for criticism. I will leave it for others to do just that.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Loeilad said:

...and that just about sums it up for the average mentality of Brexiteers - and they expect to be taken seriously!

 

And another one from the poster who whinges about personal attacks .

[Laughing Gravy]

50 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

If there is one thing guaranteed to drive certain petty bourgeois elements beyond the M25 mad with resentment and jealousy its a successful middle class area such as Richmond, in London, to boot. Richmond is not really known as a luvvie area (too expensive for that), though it does have its own local theatre and is more famously known for the Crawdaddy where the Rolling Stones played in their early days. Actors by the way want to be nearer the centre of town and and Richmond is way out in Zone 4. One is more likely these days to find actors maybe living in East London or even South London where prices are more affordable (though even there have gone up big time) Wherever it is, they are unlikely to be found dead in the provinces, unless retired.

Richmond is exactly that a luvvy area. Wealthy and for the few. There are no immigrants living there and sadly with many parts of London the British people and I don't just mean white British, others have been forced out, living in areas that have lost their identity and culture. Sports and social clubs closed down, community based projects gone and urban inner city working class areas are now slums and no go areas. Well done to multiculturalism which has failed.  Richmond is just about what the rest of the UK, is not about.

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, Loeilad said:

...and that just about sums it up for the average mentality of Brexiteers - and they expect to be taken seriously!

If that is seen as a mentality then I thank you for it. others call it patriotism and caring for the welfare of the country and people. Yes I do expect to be taken seriously, as the growing trend with populist politics is showing. In fact it is your view that is showing how out of touch you are. Time to take wake up and start listening. The people have had enough of being told what to do by the EU. The corrupt EU is trying to erode thousands of years culture and tradition in 40 plus years and is failing. I am jot against our fellow cousins in the Euro zone but I am totally against the  EU trying its best to dilute each and every country's history and culture.

[Loeilad]

Just now, Laughing Gravy said:

If that is seen as a mentality then I thank you for it. others call it patriotism and caring for the welfare of the country and people. Yes I do expect to be taken seriously, as the growing trend with populist politics is showing. In fact it is your view that is showing how out of touch you are. Time to take wake up and start listening. The people have had enough of being told what to do by the EU. The corrupt EU is trying to erode thousands of years culture and tradition in 40 plus years and is failing. I am jot against our fellow cousins in the Euro zone but I am totally against the  EU trying its best to dilute each and every country's history and culture.

you sound like something out of the "Boys own Book of Brexit" 

[Laughing Gravy]

Well thanks I will take that as a compliment. You sound like.... well difficult to put in words.

[SheungWan]

30 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Richmond is exactly that a luvvy area. Wealthy and for the few. There are no immigrants living there and sadly with many parts of London the British people and I don't just mean white British, others have been forced out, living in areas that have lost their identity and culture. Sports and social clubs closed down, community based projects gone and urban inner city working class areas are now slums and no go areas. Well done to multiculturalism which has failed.  Richmond is just about what the rest of the UK, is not about.

 

If you want to know how out of date some of our provincial Brexiteer friends are just read them bang on about 'inner {London} working class areas are now slums and no go areas'. It all now comes out. What they are really on about. Racism at its core. By the way 'luvvy'/'luvvie' is slang for the acting profession. At least get that bit right.

[Laughing Gravy]

17 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

By the way 'luvvy'/'luvvie' is slang for the acting profession. At least get that bit right

Yes it originally was, it is now often used for so many wannabies who like to think they are actors with their lifestyle. A bit like the 1980 Yuppies. Maybe you should move with the times.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

[dick dasterdly]

20 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

If you want to know how out of date some of our provincial Brexiteer friends are just read them bang on about 'inner {London} working class areas are now slums and no go areas'. It all now comes out. What they are really on about. Racism at its core. By the way 'luvvy'/'luvvie' is slang for the acting profession. At least get that bit right.

I've no doubt that you think all brexiteers are racists.....

 

But the discussion would be better served by avoiding those types of slurs IMO.

 

FWIW, I agree that parts of  inner city (and even East End) areas have been 'gentrified'.  Not that suprising, as the area used to be extremely cheap - and is close to the centre.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You really say some of the strangest of things  and certainly leave yourself open for criticism. I will leave it for others to do just that.

 

Not concerned about criticism from people who are hoping for an EU meltdown. An Italian referendum on the EU would need a change in their constitution. Market reaction is muted, that tells you something.

[Laughing Gravy]

13 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Not concerned about criticism from people who are hoping for an EU meltdown. An Italian referendum on the EU would need a change in their constitution. Market reaction is muted, that tells you something.

You still don't grasp the whole concept do you. The many countries in the EU have had enough of it. The majority voters are shunning the establishment. They want out. Now due to the 40 years of back door policies, that ties everyone in to the EU without such horrendous difficulties, most want out. People are starting to see it for what it is. Maybe you should start too. The EU and Euro are breaking and you and some others on here, are championing its cause. I would give you some respect, if you were to admit it needs a radical reform and originate back to its true meaning,  but you don't. If I didn't know better I swear you were Jean Claude Junker himself.

 

That's another concept many remoaners cling on too. The constant challenging of the people with silly little laws and get out clauses, challenging democracy. Hypocritically, as then championing the EU as a democratic institution.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

[MJP]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

If you want to know how out of date some of our provincial Brexiteer friends are just read them bang on about 'inner {London} working class areas are now slums and no go areas'. It all now comes out. What they are really on about. Racism at its core. By the way 'luvvy'/'luvvie' is slang for the acting profession. At least get that bit right.

 

I do wonder how many working class people from the inner city you actually know, let alone why they voted leave.

 

You see, I do know working class people from the east end. Yes they voted leave. 

 

They're all black by the way, some of them Muslim. It wasn't down to racism.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Richmond is exactly that a luvvy area. Wealthy and for the few. There are no immigrants living there and sadly with many parts of London the British people and I don't just mean white British, others have been forced out, living in areas that have lost their identity and culture. Sports and social clubs closed down, community based projects gone and urban inner city working class areas are now slums and no go areas. Well done to multiculturalism which has failed.  Richmond is just about what the rest of the UK, is not about.

(7by7 emphasis)

 

No immigrants in Richmond?

 

From Wikipedia (you can check elsewhere if you don't trust this source)

Quote

In 2011, Richmond was 66.5% White British, 1.2% Black, 6.3% Asian, 3.5% Mixed and 18.6% Other White. The rest is made up of Arab and Other ethnic groups.

 

This is just one example of how your knowledge of the UK in general and London in particular is sadly lacking. Perhaps you should check your facts before posting such rubbish?

[AlexRich]

19 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You still don't grasp the whole concept do you. The many countries in the EU have had enough of it. The majority voters are shunning the establishment. They want out. Now due to the 40 years of back door policies, that ties everyone in to the EU without such horrendous difficulties, most want out. People are starting to see it for what it is. Maybe you should start too. The EU and Euro are breaking and you and some others on here, are championing its cause. I would give you some respect, if you were to admit it needs a radical reform and originate back to its true meaning,  but you don't. If I didn't know better I swear you were Jean Claude Junker himself.

 

That's another concept many remoaners cling on too. The constant challenging of the people with silly little laws and get out clauses, challenging democracy. Hypocritically, as then championing the EU as a democratic institution.

 

You'd need to trawl back to previous posts ... I've never ever said that the EU was a perfect arrangement? Or the Euro for that matter. But what I have said is that the EU has the capacity to make changes to get through its current difficulties ... that could involve changes to Euro membership and amendments to current policies. What makes me laugh about you are your ilk is that you fail to see that as a possible outcome ... the option to adapt and move forward. You seem only happy with a meltdown in Europe, something that would not help the UK or the world for that matter.

 

The market reaction says it all ... the EU will reform and continue ... much to your disappointment. 

 

[jpinx]

3 hours ago, Loeilad said:

...and that just about sums it up for the average mentality of Brexiteers - and they expect to be taken seriously!

I asked you the same question -- you not have the courage to reply?

[jpinx]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

 

If you want to know how out of date some of our provincial Brexiteer friends are just read them bang on about 'inner {London} working class areas are now slums and no go areas'. It all now comes out. What they are really on about. Racism at its core. By the way 'luvvy'/'luvvie' is slang for the acting profession. At least get that bit right.

This is not a London-centred issue --  this is about the whole of UK.  It's such a shame that people can not keep the big picture in view

[Grouse]

Wow, such high levels of grumpiness today!

 

I think the Italians were voting anti- austerity. Renzi was actually good for Italy IMHO. It's a shot over the bows. No way they would elect anti EU in an election.

 

As far as the UK situation is concerned I'm increasingly of the opinion that much of the leave vote was motivated by inequality and general dissatisfaction with living conditions. I'm also conscious of the fact that the areas where the leave vote was greatest, were the areas that had seen the highest RATE of immigration NOT the areas with the highest number of immigrants.

 

In this febrile environment, it is easy for demagogues to rally people against a particular foe.

 

I share the general dissatisfaction with the state we have got ourselves into.

 

My difference is that I blame the situation on our governments over the last 40 years NOT the EU.

 

The Con Party are not going to improve things anytime soon. I am appalled that they are continuing with austerity while reducing taxes on the relatively wealthy and corporations. Cynicism at its best.

 

I hope that the EU will make changes without destroying the overall concept.

[Laughing Gravy]

18 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

No immigrants in Richmond?

 

From Wikipedia (you can check elsewhere if you don't trust this source)

 

This is just one example of how your knowledge of the UK in general and London in particular is sadly lacking. Perhaps you should check your facts before posting such rubbish?

Well as you are calling me out on this I will clarify. No recent immigrants from Europe. I have a very dear fried who lives there. She is a 2nd generation Pakistani. She considers herself to be from the UK as she was born there and I agree with her.  Admittedly I have not lived in London for a while but still keep in touch with a variety of friends who do. My point being is that Richmond is not a working class area at all.

If you thing my posts are rubbish move on.

 

Again I still stick by the claim the bye election in Richmond was not the people voting against brexit.

Just to your point. I do not class the polo club as a working class social club as mentioned in your link. As for the fact there are  66'5 percent white British, well compared to many places that is a huge number.

[jpinx]

21 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

You'd need to trawl back to previous posts ... I've never ever said that the EU was a perfect arrangement? Or the Euro for that matter. But what I have said is that the EU has the capacity to make changes to get through its current difficulties ... that could involve changes to Euro membership and amendments to current policies. What makes me laugh about you are your ilk is that you fail to see that as a possible outcome ... the option to adapt and move forward. You seem only happy with a meltdown in Europe, something that would not help the UK or the world for that matter.

 

The market reaction says it all ... the EU will reform and continue ... much to your disappointment. 

 

That's been offered and rebuked many times.  The EU has had umpteen chances to reform, but it ploughs on down the same road to hell that it started in the 1980's  Even a major contributor threatening to leave is not enough to get any dialogue on EU reform.  Too many pigs with their noses in the trough, but the people are starting to see this.  Brexit support has hardened and increased slightly since the actual vote, does that tell you *anything*?

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, MJP said:

 

I do wonder how many working class people from the inner city you actually know, let alone why they voted leave.

 

You see, I do know working class people from the east end. Yes they voted leave. 

 

They're all black by the way, some of them Muslim. It wasn't down to racism.

I was born a genuine Cockney - i.e. within the sound of Bow Bells.

 

Admittedly my parents moved out of the East End shortly thereafter - but my grandparents remained in Poplar their entire lives and so I saw the way things changed in that working class area over the decades.  And it wasn't for the better in the opinion of my grandparents or myself.

 

They were forced out of the home they'd lived in for many decades (and in which they'd brought up their family) to be moved into a high-rise nearby against their wishes.  Their home was destroyed to make way for a wealthy development....

 

Which partly explains why I'm not suprised that so many of the working class finally had enough.  Rather, I'm suprised it took this long.

[Laughing Gravy]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think the Italians were voting anti- austerity. Renzi was actually good for Italy IMHO. It's a shot over the bows. No way they would elect anti EU in an election

Grouse anti austerity is an EU issue, as due to the euro and the EU's way of dominating and controlling the governments, including immigration that is exactly what the people voted for IMO. Obviously its an opinion, I don't have the crystal balls some posters have here who insist they know for a fact.

[jpinx]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Wow, such high levels of grumpiness today!

 

I think the Italians were voting anti- austerity. Renzi was actually good for Italy IMHO. It's a shot over the bows. No way they would elect anti EU in an election.

 

As far as the UK situation is concerned I'm increasingly of the opinion that much of the leave vote was motivated by inequality and general dissatisfaction with living conditions. I'm also conscious of the fact that the areas where the leave vote was greatest, were the areas that had seen the highest RATE of immigration NOT the areas with the highest number of immigrants.

 

In this febrile environment, it is easy for demagogues to rally people against a particular foe.

 

I share the general dissatisfaction with the state we have got ourselves into.

 

My difference is that I blame the situation on our governments over the last 40 years NOT the EU.

 

The Con Party are not going to improve things anytime soon. I am appalled that they are continuing with austerity while reducing taxes on the relatively wealthy and corporations. Cynicism at its best.

 

I hope that the EU will make changes without destroying the overall concept.

Agreed that the situation did not arise yesterday -- this has been coming for many years. The UK government has equal blame with the EU for allowing the EU to become so much more than the EFTA -- that was a monumental mistake.

[dick dasterdly]

27 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

You'd need to trawl back to previous posts ... I've never ever said that the EU was a perfect arrangement? Or the Euro for that matter. But what I have said is that the EU has the capacity to make changes to get through its current difficulties ... that could involve changes to Euro membership and amendments to current policies. What makes me laugh about you are your ilk is that you fail to see that as a possible outcome ... the option to adapt and move forward. You seem only happy with a meltdown in Europe, something that would not help the UK or the world for that matter.

 

The market reaction says it all ... the EU will reform and continue ... much to your disappointment. 

 

The EU has the capacity to make changes - but not the will.

[Laughing Gravy]

28 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

You'd need to trawl back to previous posts ... I've never ever said that the EU was a perfect arrangement? Or the Euro for that matter. But what I have said is that the EU has the capacity to make changes to get through its current difficulties ... that could involve changes to Euro membership and amendments to current policies. What makes me laugh about you are your ilk is that you fail to see that as a possible outcome ... the option to adapt and move forward. You seem only happy with a meltdown in Europe, something that would not help the UK or the world for that matter.

 

The market reaction says it all ... the EU will reform and continue ... much to your disappointment. 

 

The EU has had its chance. In fact for the last 40 years plus. Instead its arrogance and control has annoyed people and they have had enough. The whole EU concept was a lie and is showing it more and more. There are only a few who still have the audacity to even suggest it can reform. It was et up to control Europe from within and it has tried very successfully in doing so. The trouble is that the countries of Europe have finally realized. It will be a domino affect.

 

[jpinx]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The EU has the capacity to make changes - but not the will.

Agreed 110% -- When you look at the statements coming out of Tusk, Junkers, Schultz, etc it is extremely obvious that there is absolutely no intention to reform the EU, so the only solution is to leave

 

Edited December 5, 2016 by jpinx