May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[jpinx]

1 minute ago, Srikcir said:

Vote them out?

Isn't that how democracy works?

The UK version of democracy is Party politics, which make every MP represent a Party, not his constituents. 

[SaintLouisBlues]

4 minutes ago, jpinx said:

The UK version of democracy is Party politics, which make every MP represent a Party, not his constituents. 

Technically a person is nominated, in most cases by a political party, to represent a constituency. Because he's been nominated by a party, and is therefore a member of that party, the electors make their decision based on his known political affiliation. Therefore in exercising his rights and duties as a member of a political party he is representing his constituents according to their expressed preference. However, constituency duties are more than merely attending parliament. MPs often intercede with bureaucrats at the national or local level on behalf of constituents who may or may not have voted for them. By the way every MP does not have to represent a Party; independents are elected from time to time. In 2006, for example, Dai Davies was elected as an Independent for the Blaenau Ghent constituency

[jpinx]

2 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Technically a person is nominated, in most cases by a political party, to represent a constituency. Because he's been nominated by a party, and is therefore a member of that party, the electors make their decision based on his known political affiliation. Therefore in exercising his rights and duties as a member of a political party he is representing his constituents according to their expressed preference. However, constituency duties are more than merely attending parliament. MPs often intercede with bureaucrats at the national or local level on behalf of constituents who may or may not have voted for them. By the way every MP does not have to represent a Party; independents are elected from time to time. In 2006, for example, Dai Davies was elected as an Independent for the Blaenau Ghent constituency

The "technical" details are well-known, but the reality on the ground is that the local party officers control everything, and make sure the faithful are rewarded. MP's hate interceding with the bureaucrats because they are wary of getting tangled up in things that might backfire across the party lines.  Windfarm objectors can tell a lot of stories about that.

[SaintLouisBlues]

6 minutes ago, jpinx said:

The "technical" details are well-known, but the reality on the ground is that the local party officers control everything, and make sure the faithful are rewarded. MP's hate interceding with the bureaucrats because they are wary of getting tangled up in things that might backfire across the party lines.  Windfarm objectors can tell a lot of stories about that.

My sister-in-law works in a constituency office and is run off her feet dealing with "constituency matters". You're confusing policy matters with constituency matters. She characterizes her work as "trying to move someone with ingrown toenails up the waiting list". An exaggeration of course, but that's the level of trivia that "constituency matters" is about, and that's what most constituents care about - someone who can intercede on their behalf with a faceless bureaucracy or other inconsequential to others but important to them matters.

Edited January 3, 2017 by SaintLouisBlues

[jpinx]

So another committed remainer jumps ship because he can not make everyone sing from his songsheet.  To have bureaucrats with strong political views is always a bad thing, so best he goes out to pasture where he can  not taint to negotiations any more.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38503020

[jpinx]

17 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

My sister-in-law works in a constituency office and is run off her feet dealing with "constituency matters". You're confusing policy matters with constituency matters. She characterizes her work as "trying to move someone with ingrown toenails up the waiting list". An exaggeration of course, but that's the level of trivia that "constituency matters" is about, and that's what most constituents care about - someone who can intercede on their behalf with a faceless bureaucracy or other inconsequential to others but important to them matters.

I am sure that is the case, but experience elsewhere raises much wider issues and the usual reaction is the MP can not help, and we all know that it's because it crosses with the MP's party line.

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, jpinx said:

I am sure that is the case, but experience elsewhere raises much wider issues and the usual reaction is the MP can not help, and we all know that it's because it crosses with the MP's party line.

As I said, you're confusing "policy matters" with "constituency matters". MPs are not there simply to represent every special interest group that happens to pop up in their constituency

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

As I said, you're confusing "policy matters" with "constituency matters". MPs are not there simply to represent every special interest group that happens to pop up in their constituency

Similarly you mistake the issues I refer to as something about special interest groups, but the reality for my family is that it is a personal issue to do with their personal property within the constituency.   I have little time for these special interest groups who seem to manage to rub everyone up the wrong way. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by jpinx

[SaintLouisBlues]

1 minute ago, jpinx said:

Similarly you mistake the issues I refer to as something about special interest groups, but the reality for my family is that it is a personal issue to do with their personal property within the constituency.   I have little time for these special interest groups who seem to manage to rub everyone up the wrong way. 

Always reassuring to see someone engaging in massive generalizations that relate to a really specific circumstance

[jpinx]

7 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Always reassuring to see someone engaging in massive generalizations that relate to a really specific circumstance

There are numerous incidences of MP not acting for their constituents when it crosses party lines.  I am not about to quote chapter and verse on such private matters, any more than you can do so for your relation working in a constituency office.  If you can't disagree in an amiable way, just don't reply

[SaintLouisBlues]

11 minutes ago, jpinx said:

There are numerous incidences of MP not acting for their constituents when it crosses party lines.  I am not about to quote chapter and verse on such private matters, any more than you can do so for your relation working in a constituency office.  If you can't disagree in an amiable way, just don't reply

I disagree with your spin on UK MPs' responsibilities, amiably or otherwise. The constituents of any and every electorate choose a local member in the full knowledge of his party affiliation. Their grasp of reality should lead them to assume he's going to support party policy, whether or not they like it, and whether or not it goes against their personal, sectional or class interests. That's the way it is. That is not the same as what you are asserting - that MPs represent their parties, not their constituents

Edited January 4, 2017 by SaintLouisBlues

[Grouse]

25 minutes ago, jpinx said:

So another committed remainer jumps ship because he can not make everyone sing from his songsheet.  To have bureaucrats with strong political views is always a bad thing, so best he goes out to pasture where he can  not taint to negotiations any more.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38503020

 

Dont you think it's odd, worrying even, that most of the best people, the most capable ones are remainers? Doesn't that give you pause?

[SaintLouisBlues]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Dont you think it's odd, worrying even, that most of the best people, the most capable ones are remainers? Doesn't that give you pause?

Even if it, what difference will that make?

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Even if it, what difference will that make?

 

The blind leading the blind ?

[SaintLouisBlues]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

The blind leading the blind ?

I repeat, even if true, what difference will it make?

[jpinx]

 

23 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I disagree with your spin on UK MPs' responsibilities, amiably or otherwise. The constituents of any and every electorate choose a local member in the full knowledge of his party affiliation. Their grasp of reality should lead them to assume he's going to support party policy, whether or not they like it, and whether or not it goes against their personal, sectional or class interests. That's the way it is. That is not the same as what you are asserting - that MPs represent their parties, not their constituents

"... a local member ..."   You would do well to find a listing of MP's and where they came from vs their constituency.  Most are "placed" by their party.

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, jpinx said:

"... a local member ..."   You would do well to find a listing of MP's and where they came from vs their constituency.  Most are "placed" by their party.

You really do struggle with the English language don't you. "Local member" does not and never has meant someone from the locality. It means the member for that locality

[jpinx]

8 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I repeat, even if true, what difference will it make?

 

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

The blind leading the blind ?

Yes -- the blind remainers who can not see how UK can thrive outside the EU and need their comfort blanket of Brussels to get through their day.   No matter how many repetitions - it doesn't make it true.

[sandyf]

48 minutes ago, jpinx said:

So another committed remainer jumps ship because he can not make everyone sing from his songsheet.  To have bureaucrats with strong political views is always a bad thing, so best he goes out to pasture where he can  not taint to negotiations any more.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38503020

Sounds like a plan, replace all the experience with amateur brexiteers.

[jpinx]

1 minute ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

You really do struggle with the English language don't you. "Local member" does not and never has meant someone from the locality. It means the member for that locality

Well -- thanks for agreeing with my point that MP's are not native to their constituency, nor do they represent the people there, only the party interests in the area.

[jpinx]

1 minute ago, sandyf said:

Sounds like a plan, replace all the experience with amateur brexiteers.

I'd rather have one committed, intelligent UK supporter than a dozen dyed in the wool intransigent remainers

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, jpinx said:

Well -- thanks for agreeing with my point that MP's are not native to their constituency, nor do they represent the people there, only the party interests in the area.

Don't misquote me. I never said they don't represent the people there since, clearly, the people there have elected them, nor have I said they only represent party interest in the area. I suggest you re-read the first sentence of the post you are quoting.

[jpinx]

2 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Don't misquote me. I never said they don't represent the people there since, clearly, the people there have elected them, nor have I said they only represent party interest in the area. I suggest you re-read the first sentence of the post you are quoting.

The people voted for a party - not the man.

[SaintLouisBlues]

Just now, jpinx said:

The people voted for a party - not the man.

So your argument is that no MP ever builds up a personal following while serving as the local member?

[jpinx]

8 minutes ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

So your argument is that no MP ever builds up a personal following while serving as the local member?

After the fact, some of them might, but all too often people don't even know what their MP looks like....

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

I'd rather have one committed, intelligent UK supporter than a dozen dyed in the wool intransigent remainers

 

There does seem to be a paucity of wise Brexiteers wouldn't you agree? Maybe they're hiding? The BBC were reduced to wheeling out the truely dreadful Farage for comment.  Jesus wept.

[AlexRich]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

There does seem to be a paucity of wise Brexiteers wouldn't you agree? Maybe they're hiding? The BBC were reduced to wheeling out the truely dreadful Farage for comment.  Jesus wept.

 

They need someone who has drunk the Brexit kool aid ... a yes man. The Brexit diehards in the Government are busy putting their fingers in their ears and shouting "la la la ... " loudly when they hear an opinion that doesn't fit their "Pollyanna" narrative. But we need to get on with this so that we can prepare plans to retake the Empire and the American colonies ... for England and St George!

 

Hard Brexit here we come.

 

[AlexRich]

6 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I repeat, even if true, what difference will it make?

 

I can think of a few:

 

1) they are incapable of negotiating effectively than more capable colleagues.

2) they are wrong on the likelihood of a long term positive outcome.

[Khun Han]

Another nail in Project Fear's coffin. The UK economy is expanding:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38515971

[AlexRich]

The UK economy is expanding but retail stocks are selling off after the Next plc update on their prospects for 2017. Their CEO is a Brexiteer. Consumption is the biggest part of GDP ... it is slowing. 

 

We don't leave the EU until 2019 at the earliest ... once Theresa gets all her "yes" men in a row we are heading for hard Brexit and WTO trade rules with the EU, our biggest trading area. Compared to remaining in the EU, our GDP growth will be lower.