Power showers.. With a pump

[LivinLOS]

I have an otherwise great rental home, but one that suffers from fluctuating water pressure in the master bedroom ensuite, as its a long way from the pump and I think the house piping was smaller bore than it should / could have been. It also has a low end shower heater and cold season in chiang mai means I would gift the landlord an upgrade.

 

As a way to kill 2 birds with one stone I would like to add one of those power showers, the kind with a built in pump and a thermostat.. Wouldnt mind even going a bit higher end with a waterfall shower option.

 

Just tried the local home pro and not only got the 'mai mee's but also got the look.. The one where I may as well have had 2 heads for suggesting a shower could come with a built in pump. Communication didnt seem to be the issue, not only my rudimentary Thai but they understood, they just never seemed to have heard of it and this process involved a fair few folks in the plumbing / bathroom dept.

 

Is this yet another thing that for reasons unclear doesnt exist in the Thai market ?? Fairly routine item surely. 

 

 

 

 

[eyecatcher]

A power shower to me means a pump pumping already heated water direct to your shower head.

so for example a typical hot water cylinder, heated with a thermostat or even a decent type of combi gas boiler.

The nearest you will get to that here are the electric storage tanks that stiebel and Mazuma make. they are expensive starting at about 7k for the smallest tank that will not hold enough water for your nearest and dearest to follow on witha hot shower...its emptied already.

Then you need to move up into the bigger tanks; and you need a place to put it, electric feeds etc etc.

 

A standard pump and electric shower is fine as long as its strong enough to pump the distance you need but even the heavier duty showers (I have a stiebel 6/8kw multipoint) are struggling for the temp I like.

The pumps makes the problem worse in some ways because it s pumping water over the element quicker thus not giving sufficient time to heat it up.

 

Most showers now in winter will struggle as they can only heat a few degrees higher than the incoming temp.

What i do is to try and restrict the flow. just turn the water flow tap down a couple of notches. The pressure will always remain the same but the waterflow over the element is less slower giving it chance to heat up better.

 

but it does sound like your gripe is with enough hot water and if you are confident on your pump then maybe just upgrade the electric shower. if your pump is working hard to get to an upstairs level you could add a second pump on the same run either nearer the bathroom or in the roof as we do with the showers on our 3 storey business

[wayned]

Ebay UK has power showers with a pump, but no heater.  They are meant to pump heated water as eyecatcher said. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/Redring-power-shower-with-booster-pump/162324581301?hlpht=true&ops=true&viphx=1&_trksid=p5197.c100068.m2280&_trkparms=ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140211130857%26meid%3Df0983fed3b7b498bb94452178da3f4a0%26pid%3D100068%26clkid%3D1429866955333636565&_qi=RTM2063723

[Kwasaki]

19 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

but one that suffers from fluctuating water pressure in the master bedroom ensuite, as its a long way from the pump

 

Sounds like your house pump has a problem or is not up to the task,  most any water piping can be 1/2" with bends and junctions to ones shower unit and not be a pressure problem.

Our 7 kw shower unit in our 1st floor upstairs bathroom is like power shower with outside pump on.  

[LivinLOS]

The issue is the pump comes on.. Provides (almost I guess) adequate pressure.. Then shuts off (not enough flow, so it pressurizes tank) and pressure gradually drops.. So hot / cold / hot.. The same pump runs garden watering systems fine, they are enough 'bore' that any open tap means the pump kicks in and stays on.. 

 

Secondly until the pump detects pressure drop (15 or 20m away same level) the pressure is sort of low.. Not low enough a Thai builder thinks its low.. But low for me. 

 

Its a rental house, I am not keen on upgrading too much that doesnt belong to me.. 

 

 

[LivinLOS]

I just checked.. Its a 1hp pump (0.75kw I think it said) and it pressurizes the tank to 0.3 on the pressure dail (I guess ft lbs but it doesnt say) before shut off, but then doesnt kick in until it drops as low as 0.12 - 0.14.. Local crappy plumbers both said this was normal range.. Personally I would think a more sensitive switch would solve most of the pressure issue as its the slow fall, kick in, slow fall cycle which is poor. I would live with it if the pump just stayed on and working until the taps / shower were closed. 

 

What is the normal 'pressure' one of these pumps maintains and kicks in at when it falls ?? 

 

Doesnt help that plumbers seem totally disinterested in even listening to the problem.. "but theres some water.. whats the issue"..  

 

=============

 

Yesterday finally found the first person who understood what I was asking for.. Clarte sell one in Thailand for 6k and is a 4500 kw heater. If I upgrade the flow we need a better shower heater anyway so seems 2 birds with one stone ?? Otherwise I am fixing his pump and buying a new shower heater anyway.

 

https://www.directtoshop.com/product/1051619?millis=1475043166352&lang=en

 

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, wayned said:

Ebay UK has power showers with a pump, but no heater.  They are meant to pump heated water as eyecatcher said. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/Redring-power-shower-with-booster-pump/162324581301?hlpht=true&ops=true&viphx=1&_trksid=p5197.c100068.m2280&_trkparms=ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140211130857%26meid%3Df0983fed3b7b498bb94452178da3f4a0%26pid%3D100068%26clkid%3D1429866955333636565&_qi=RTM2063723

 

It seems the correct name for this is a pumped electric shower.. 

 

Plenty exist in UK.. Its whats at a UK home I use often. 

 

https://www.showerdoc.com/showers/pumped-electric

[wayned]

I put "pumped electric shower" on eBay UK and yep your are right they are available there.  I've never seen one here but you could order one direct from eBa y, I use them a

25 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

It seems the correct name for this is a pumped electric shower.. 

 

Plenty exist in UK.. Its whats at a UK home I use often. 

 

https://www.showerdoc.com/showers/pumped-electric

ll of the time.

[LivinLOS]

Yeah I can order a clarte one with a 4500kw heater it turned up yesterday.. 6k baht. I couldnt get an answer on how long that order would take but its not massively urgent. 

 

Interested to know if others think my pump pressure switch range is the culprit.. Thai plumbers say its normal.. I suspect its low ?? 

 

My other way is to replace that switch and add a decent shower heater. Its more in line with what local installer would understand too. 

[CGW]

The pressure you mention seeing at the pump make no sense? as a minimum you should be seeing 30 Psi (~2 Bar)

You could put a reasonable sized pressure tank in but sounds like the problems are with your pump?

[LivinLOS]

3 hours ago, CGW said:

The pressure you mention seeing at the pump make no sense? as a minimum you should be seeing 30 Psi (~2 Bar)

You could put a reasonable sized pressure tank in but sounds like the problems are with your pump?

 

 

The pump has no measurement to go with the numbers.. Possibly the 0.3 and 0.2 etc is for multiples to be bar ?? 

 

There is also a pressure tank.. If the pressure tank was smaller, the pump would detect the pressure drop better I would expect.. 

 

Previous setups didnt have the kind of tank mine has.. was like a pump and tank combo..

 

Like I said the garden system which has larger bore pipe and taps, runs fine.. Open tap pump kicks in and keeps running until you close the tap.. Its the house system off the same pump which has weaker pressure and cuts on and off so fluctuates.. 

[RichCor]

If you're getting stuttering pressure variations with the pump cycling then sounds like the pump's pressure tank is too small, needs to be bled of air, or replaced if the bladder isn't holding up.

 

Another option would be to add a larger pressure tank to the system. 

 

Whichever, with a properly working pressure tank you shouldn't even notice a pressure change when running water.

[LivinLOS]

Really ?? I would have assumed a smaller tank would have allowed the sensor to detect the pressure drop easier.. It would lose more pressure with less water removed. Now it takes 20 or so seconds of tap flow for the pump to kick in, for a few seconds, and then cycle.. The garden you open a tap and it kicks in.. 

 

What size tank is normal (2 bed 2 bathroom) ?? We have had 2 'plumbers' who didnt want to even acknowledge the issue really.. One who was responsible for the pump install so obviously hes motivated to claim its perfect, but the other just wanted to claim it was fine and leave without payment in a hurry.. Seems annoying difficult to find a decent plumber interested in solving the issue here. 

 

Also seems the garden, which to me appears to work much better, doesnt go through the filtration system.. But the house, with its weaker pressure does.. Too much backpressure from the filter ?? It gets backwashed regularly but the house after the filter has such weak flow rate. 

 

See all this hassle is why I just thought add a pumped electric shower.. Solved without messing with the landlords stuff too much.. Getting too deep into upgrading his house while I rent seems poor planning. I have little interest in upgrading his pump, or his tanks too much.. 

 

[CGW]

Have you tried draining water from the pressure tank? need a head of air (buffer) for pressure tank to work correctly. Does the filter system do any good, I have found the type of filter system ineffective as "city" water in recent years is a lot cleaner than it was in the past, try bypass the filter and see if there is any improvement.

I can understand your reluctance to invest in improving things for the landlord but you should have a clause in your contract that states he has to pay above a certain amount!

Good luck trying to find a "Thai plumber" from my experience non existent!

[LivinLOS]

The logic is.. If the same pump / pressure system makes the garden work fine.. Then surely its not the pump pressure system which is failing the house.. Its something in the system after the pump / pressure tank ??? They have vaguely claimed pump too far from shower and house possibly has 'thin pipes'.. The former possibly the latter I dont see how effects pressure. 

 

Turn garden taps on.. in a couple of seconds the pump kicks in.. Stays on.. Decent pressure.. High flow (garden is all 1 inch or 3/4 pipe, high flow taps) rate. 

 

Turn the house taps on.. Water flows out, but v weakly and unpressurized.. 20 or even 30 seconds later pump kicks in, theres a brief bit of pressure (shower goes cool).. Pump shuts off.. water dribbles out for 20 or 30 seconds.. rinse repeat :) 

 

Our water comes from the village headmans well.. Often poor.. Backwash shows a lot of grime in it each time.. I dont think the landlords ok with me bypassing or removing filters etc. 

 

Yes the (very decent) landlord who is renting me this great place for a bargain price is responsible for any repairs over 4k baht.. However to them, the way the water is now doesnt need repair.. It is 'working' in thier eyes. They dont have my standards is hardly something I can make a big deal of. I also am heading away in 6 weeks, probably spending 3 months a year here over the next few years, so its kind of a temporary inconvenience. Would just like hot power shower during cool season in the north. 

[CGW]

Most Thai built houses use 1/2" pipe in the house, better of using 3/4" then reduce down for taps etc, sounds like you have 1/2" or less, or maybe a blockage? what size pipe goes into the house (if you can see it?)

The smaller the pipes equates to less volume and more friction + less flow, not an easy fix! would think that from what you say there is something more wrong with your system, no matter what size pipe is you should get a constant flow, if there is a valve in the system in the house I would try remove it (with the pump off!) see if there is any crap in the valve (s) then turn on the pump, see if pressure improves, there are some crappy valves on the market that are not "full" opening.

Doesn't sound like a good idea to bypass filter!!

[Daffy D]

I had a power shower when I was renting an apartment about 10 years ago. It worked just fine and took it with me when I moved.

Have since moved into our house that has pump for the whole house so gave the power shower to mother in law. 

 

It still works after all these years.   

[Pdaz]

Does the water going to the house pass through a filter suite ? If it does ( and the gatden water doesn't ) that could explain your low flow. Either clogged filter or badly sized which is causing the restriction

[LivinLOS]

yes as said and photo'd heres a great big filter job in the system. 

 

 

[CGW]

Its hard to see exactly how the filter is set up from the pictures, I have always installed them on the suction side then run a line to backflush, try bypass it and see if that makes a difference, looks like you have the valves available to do that?

Have you tried backflushing filter, if the water is as dirty as you say will need to be done weekly!

[RichCor]

From what you've described in the latest posts it definitely sounds like you have occlusion of the filter, reducing the amount of water that can be delivered under certain pressure.

 

20-30 seconds of reserve pressure for the house sounds great, but not if it's at a greatly reduced flow rate. 

 

As other's have suggested, try running the filter valves in bypass, see if the house flow/pressure is rectified.  

 

Hopefully you're also back-washing any end-point aerators regularly as they tend to clog up with deposits and reduce flow as well.