Lawyer for Wills...Price?

[chiang mai]

46 minutes ago, JimGant said:

This was not meant to highlight "template wills." Substitute fella with a handwritten holographic will, if you want. The point was that Amphur Wills, even with all their formatting and proof of not being cuckoo hoops, are now seemingly subject to probate, along with all other forms of Wills (solely based on the reams of Will info on the forum). Even the now-defunct "ask the lawyer" subforum reported that Amphur Wills required probate (not that I believed a whole lot that guy had to say).

 

I don't either. Unless contested, the court will accept the testator's choice of executor/administrator. No lawyer needed to get past the "I'm the executor" goal post. And if the judge would then go stamp stamp, Will is probated, again, no lawyer needed. But, again with all the info on the Will threads here, this ain't what's going to happen -- even in simple situations. It's going to take months to process -- and I'm sure the lawyer mafia has made it this way, with known tall hurdles designed to have the prudent executor know he needs a lawyer from the git go (kinda like the agent situation at Chiang Mai Immigration). But, hey, if you're fluent in Thai, and familiar with the legal system, give it a shot.

 

There are several aspects to the lawyer or not issue:

 

The obvious first is that the language of the Court is Thai hence who ever presents and represents must be absolutely fluent in Thai and that rules out most farangs who may be acting as executor.

 

The second is process, whoever presents and represents must know the procedural process and that rules out many native Thai's.

 

The third is whether anyone apart from a lawyer may address or present at a Thai court, even a Probate Court. Probate has become a devolved process in many countries but this is Thailand and it seems unlikely the process has devolved here - I conclude I do not know for certain on this point but the mafia point is well taken, albeit I might refer to it as something tamer than that.

[kkerry]

So, in Thailand, does an executor or legal representative have to appear in a proper court room before a judge or not? 

 

In Australia when I lodged an application for probate I went to the Probate Office, and swore my application before the Registrar. He had an office in the section where you go to make application. The Registrar asked me a few questions, had me sign in a few places, stamped and signed some pages, checked to see all the documents were present and that was it apart from paying the lodgement fee. Five days later I received in the mail a Grant of Probate from the Supreme Court.

[NancyL]

OK, folks please read this thread from the very beginning.  It's not that long.  Somewhere around post #27 you'll see where I've been personally involved in settling the estates of three people where probate wasn't involved.  Either I was the executor or the guaranteer, which may be something unique to Bangkok Bank Kad Suan Kaew Chiang Mai.  Basically, I have enough personal funds on deposit there that if I sign off as saying that I knew the wishes of both the deceased and the primary beneficiary that I'd guarantee that I knew both the deceased and the primary beneficiary and that it was indeed the wishes of the deceased to carry out the wishes of the Final Will as stated.  If someone chose to challenge and a court of law found in their favor it was my rump on the line.  

 

In these cases, I felt very confident that I knew the wishes of the deceased, the primary beneficiaries and their family situations so that there would be no challenges.  In the case where I was the executor, let's just say that Bangkok Bank was surprised with who I brought in as the guaranteer.  Someone much better than they would have expected.

 

Maybe probate is something the banks want to do when they don't know their account holders, their family situation, their heirs and don't have guaranteers to CYA.

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, NancyL said:

OK, folks please read this thread from the very beginning.  It's not that long.  Somewhere around post #27 you'll see where I've been personally involved in settling the estates of three people where probate wasn't involved.  Either I was the executor or the guaranteer, which may be something unique to Bangkok Bank Kad Suan Kaew Chiang Mai.  Basically, I have enough personal funds on deposit there that if I sign off as saying that I knew the wishes of both the deceased and the primary beneficiary that I'd guarantee that I knew both the deceased and the primary beneficiary and that it was indeed the wishes of the deceased to carry out the wishes of the Final Will as stated.  If someone chose to challenge and a court of law found in their favor it was my rump on the line.  

 

In these cases, I felt very confident that I knew the wishes of the deceased, the primary beneficiaries and their family situations so that there would be no challenges.  In the case where I was the executor, let's just say that Bangkok Bank was surprised with who I brought in as the guaranteer.  Someone much better than they would have expected.

 

Maybe probate is something the banks want to do when they don't know their account holders, their family situation, their heirs and don't have guaranteers to CYA.

 

Please read the posts more carefully, the discussion has moved on and is now debating whether a layman can represent the will at Probate Court or if a lawyer must do that (assuming the need for Probate Court is actually required).

[jonwilly]

I did a will on my Thai assets at Star Visa, cost B4.500.

I intended that it be held by my bank but they advised that it must be deposited at The Amphur Office.

The Amphur office for me is located close by the 3 Kings Monument where I obtained my Thai ID Card.

I went there and they where helpful.

A lady at information desk got me a Number Ticket and after say a 10 min wait I was second person to be called forward.

The lady officer politely explained that the Lawyer's 'Witness Signature' had to be applied at the Ampure, in their office.

The lady phone Start Visa and I am now awaiting a reply from Star as to when a visit to Amphur is practical.

 

john

[sharktooth]

If I have offshore accounts in four different countries could a lawyer here deal with my will?

[jonwilly]

I spoke to a local businessman about my will and he said he was under the impression Flang wills could not be registered/held by Amphur.

However I hold a Thai ID Card issued by the Amphur which I had shown when they said Passport please.

After this I went down to Star Visa and had a talk. They will be able to attend Amphur at 14.00 on Monday.

No charge for this visit, which I though was very good of them.

 

john

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, jonwilly said:

I spoke to a local businessman about my will and he said he was under the impression Flang wills could not be registered/held by Amphur.

However I hold a Thai ID Card issued by the Amphur which I had shown when they said Passport please.

After this I went down to Star Visa and had a talk. They will be able to attend Amphur at 14.00 on Monday.

No charge for this visit, which I though was very good of them.

 

john

I have no idea what a "Flang will" is, but as I've said earlier in this thread I know of numerous cases where foreigners have obtained  and registered Amphur wills at Amphur Muang Chiang Mai -- office near the main police station in the old city.  Single foreigners, foreigner-foreigner couples and foreigners married to Thai people.  Doesn't matter.  I know of one case that was filed very recently.

 

May not be the case in other amphurs.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, jonwilly said:

I spoke to a local businessman about my will and he said he was under the impression Flang wills could not be registered/held by Amphur.

However I hold a Thai ID Card issued by the Amphur which I had shown when they said Passport please.

After this I went down to Star Visa and had a talk. They will be able to attend Amphur at 14.00 on Monday.

No charge for this visit, which I though was very good of them.

 

john

It's not clear to me why Star Visa needs to attend the Amphur if you're making a simple Amphur will, they have no role to play in that!

[JimGant]

Quote

I did a will on my Thai assets at Star Visa, cost B4.500.

I intended that it be held by my bank but they advised that it must be deposited at The Amphur Office.

Did Star Visa advise you about what happens when you croak? Does your executor have to go thru probate? Or, does somehow having your Will held by the Amphur preclude having to go thru probate? And, if probate is required, did Star Visa give you any figures and time lines for such probate?

[jonwilly]

'It's not clear to me why Star Visa needs to attend the Amphur if you're making a simple Amphur will, they have no role to play in that!'

As I said in the earlier post

The lady officer politely explained that the Lawyer's 'Witness Signature' had to be applied at the Ampure.

A US citizen, long term Thailand was JUSMAG in BKK early 60's, when he was the office boy, attempted to register his will at the Mae Rim Ampure and was  turned away, this is the case to which my businessman friend referred.

 

john

 

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, jonwilly said:

'It's not clear to me why Star Visa needs to attend the Amphur if you're making a simple Amphur will, they have no role to play in that!'

As I said in the earlier post

The lady officer politely explained that the Lawyer's 'Witness Signature' had to be applied at the Ampure.

A US citizen, long term Thailand was JUSMAG in BKK early 60's, when he was the office boy, attempted to register his will at the Mae Rim Ampure and was  turned away, this is the case to which my businessman friend referred.

 

john

 

With all due respect John something doesn't sound quite right here, the Amphur historically can supply witnesses, the witness doesn't have to be a lawyer. Plus I've never heard of a foreigner being turned away from the Amphur for this purpose, perhaps others can comment. It sounds to me from what I've read that Star Visa is selling a basically free Amphur service or did I miss something?

[jonwilly]

My will was signed by me at Star Visa. It was witness There by the two lawyers.

My original plan was to have my bank hold my Will.

When bank said no they told me that in Thailand it was normal practice for the Will to be deposited at Amphur.

My Amphur Office where some months ago they issued me with my Thai I.D. card is locate near the 3 Kings Monument.

They where very helpful but insisted and phoned Star Visa to have them come to sign my will. The actual signatures where more of 'Initials' as opposed a long signature.

I spoke to a friend who has his own business and he mentioned the problem of our mutual friend  a US citizen.

I went down to Star Visa and they made arrangement to sign on Monday.

 

john

All Thai folk where their normal friendly and helpful selves. 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, jonwilly said:

My will was signed by me at Star Visa. It was witness There by the two lawyers.

My original plan was to have my bank hold my Will.

When bank said no they told me that in Thailand it was normal practice for the Will to be deposited at Amphur.

My Amphur Office where some months ago they issued me with my Thai I.D. card is locate near the 3 Kings Monument.

They where very helpful but insisted and phoned Star Visa to have them come to sign my will. The actual signatures where more of 'Initials' as opposed a long signature.

I spoke to a friend who has his own business and he mentioned the problem of our mutual friend  a US citizen.

I went down to Star Visa and they made arrangement to sign on Monday.

 

john

All Thai folk where their normal friendly and helpful selves. 

OK now I understand, so you're using the Amphur for safe custody of the will, that makes sense.

[JimGant]

Quote

OK now I understand, so you're using the Amphur for safe custody of the will, that makes sense.

 

 

Quote

I intended that it be held by my bank but they advised that it must be deposited at The Amphur Office.

But, again, what happens upon your death? If the bank said store your Will at the Amphur, does that mean that upon your death, they'll accept the Will obtained from the Amphur by your executor -- then release your bank assets? What about any other assets mentioned in the Will?

 

Bottom line: What did Star Visa tell you happens to process your Will after death?

[luther]

Original Poster here with wills in hand. 

Done by Khun Sumalee and her staff on Huay Kaew Road, offices in the Punna Condo. 

Very professional, reasonable price.

 

With a simple straight forward will and no challenges to it, probate is very inexpensive.,

Send a message if you want more details.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, luther said:

Original Poster here with wills in hand. 

Done by Khun Sumalee and her staff on Huay Kaew Road, offices in the Punna Condo. 

Very professional, reasonable price.

 

With a simple straight forward will and no challenges to it, probate is very inexpensive.,

Send a message if you want more details.

And you think probate is how much?

 

Typically Probate costs between 1% and 2.25% of the assets involved, Kuhn Sumalee has also been my lawyer for many years.

[luther]

I was told a fee,  "not a percent" by several lawyers.  Where did you get the impression that it is a percent?

So you have 6 million baht in a bank account.  A lawyer is going to ask 120,000 baht for one or two appearances in court?

Edited February 6, 2017 by luther

[jonwilly]

I met my 2 lawyers at the Amphur at 13.15. They obtained a number from the machine and we where seen about 10 mins later.

The Civil Servants required a photocopy of the lawyers I.D. signed by them at the amphur.

My will was placed in a brown envelope, sealed  and I signed all the 'Flap' joints. 

Then a senior decided they required the I.D. number of the Executor. I said it is in the sealed envelope. They settled for phoning my executor and he gave them the number of his I.D. card.

My lawyers left after about 45 mins and I waited and signed two forms they prepared with all details on. I was out about 1 hr after arriving.

All the Thai folk where pleasant and helpful.

The lawyers clerk said that with all having read or prepared the will, Probate would be no problem, if ever required.

I went around to my executor and gave him the Receipt from the Amphur.

 

john

Previously I had told him 25 ltrs of benz and a match which annoyed him, now he knows Suan Dork Hospital to dispose of my carcass.

 

[NancyL]

You'd better put your wishes about a Suan Dok Hospital torch-off in writing.  It is cheap and efficient, but they don't let any friends or family members in to witness them pop you in the oven.  They don't even tell your loved ones when they're doing the deed.  They'll just call and tell your family when to come pick up the remains.

 

This can be disturbing for your Thai loved ones when they inquire about the details and they may pull your corpse out of the Suan Dok hospital morgue and hustle it off to a gilded wat for a 100,000 baht ceremony, just to show everyone how much you were loved.  Is that how you want them spending your money?   

[JimGant]

Quote

The lawyers clerk said that with all having read or prepared the will, Probate would be no problem, if ever required.

Did he/she give any amplification on "if ever required"?

[jonwilly]

Nancy, I used to know the former Brit Honorary Consul who was back then required to attend cremations.

No posh gas fired burner.

His description of what came out was not very nice, he too was an old soldier.

I'll speak to friends, might stop them laughing.

Mr Gant go see a lawyer, and ask .

 

john

[chiang mai]

10 hours ago, luther said:

I was told a fee,  "not a percent" by several lawyers.  Where did you get the impression that it is a percent?

So you have 6 million baht in a bank account.  A lawyer is going to ask 120,000 baht for one or two appearances in court?

From two sources, the first being reported here recently by a poster who had been through probate on two estates, the confirmation of that pricing however was from Kuhn Sumalee.

 

Also as said earlier, I wrote to my bank to ask about their process for the transfer of accounts at death and they, UOB, said the transfer takes about six months before they issue a cashiers check - just something to keep in mind because whilst BB seems to do things more quickly, not all banks do.

Edited February 6, 2017 by chiang mai

[JimGant]

Did anyone who's had a Will drawn up by a lawyer -- in which everything is being left to the spouse -- have specific language in that Will disinheriting all applicable statutory heirs? I ask because of the following I stumbled across (admittedly, dated -- and claiming no authoritative credit).

 

Quote

1.

A Farang buys a house in the village for himself, his Thai wife and his Thai stepson. Thailand law says a Farang can not own land, so he puts the house in his Thai wife’s name. The woman dies.

2.

Does the child own 100%, 50%, or zero % of the house?

Whether the wife left a Will or not, the house shares shall go to her statutory heirs. Though the husband is not part of the 6 classes of Statutory Heirs, the surviving spouse is , nevertheless, a statutory heir under Civil and Commercial Code Section 1635. Therefore, the husband gets 50% and the son gets 50%.

http://www.vfwpost9876.com/faqvfw_files/estate.htm

Now, my wife's Will leaves all her assets to me, even specifically naming those assets by title/serial number (chanotes, cars, bank accts). But, she didn't name any of her brothers or sisters for disinheritance. Is anyone knowledgeable that maybe we need to go back and reaccomplish her Will? Obviously, that would be a nice CYA move -- but has anyone's lawyer given any guidance on this? Don't want pay a lawyer's fee that may not be necessary.....

[jeffandgop]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Did anyone who's had a Will drawn up by a lawyer -- in which everything is being left to the spouse -- have specific language in that Will disinheriting all applicable statutory heirs? I ask because of the following I stumbled across (admittedly, dated -- and claiming no authoritative credit).

 

Now, my wife's Will leaves all her assets to me, even specifically naming those assets by title/serial number (chanotes, cars, bank accts). But, she didn't name any of her brothers or sisters for disinheritance. Is anyone knowledgeable that maybe we need to go back and reaccomplish her Will? Obviously, that would be a nice CYA move -- but has anyone's lawyer given any guidance on this? Don't want pay a lawyer's fee that may not be necessary.....

If the marriage is not legal under Thai law the spouse is not recognized as being the husband. An example is where the husband is non Thai and marries a Thai citizen outside of Thailand and does not register the marriage in Thailand. In this case the husband would get zero. 

A will does not need to specifically exclude statutory heirs to preclude those persons from obtaining a part of the estate. By having a will and designating the beneficiaries as you wish precludes that the estate does not get distributed to the statutory heirs. Statutory heirs really comes in to play when the deceased has no will. 

[Dante99]

Sure Jim do not bother with a lawyer fee or two, just believe the crap posted here.

 

Or would it be better to not believe anyone and have the lawyer add the disinheritance clause and of course have a second opinion from another lawyer to make sure the clause is properly worded.  How much is that going to cost compared to the potential loss?  Not much but penny wise pound foolish reigns.

[JimGant]

Quote

Or would it be better to not believe anyone and have the lawyer add the disinheritance clause and of course have a second opinion from another lawyer to make sure the clause is properly worded.

Second opinion? What I don't believe are all the different opinions we get on this forum in all the different Will threads from Thai lawyers and law firms, as well as Thai lawyer websites. "Ask the Lawyer" was a joke of conflicting answers. So, once again, does anyone (or their Thai wife) with a lawyer-prepared Will  have any disinheritance clauses in order to protect the primary beneficiary? Or, probably more simply, a clause, "I leave 10 baht to my dead beat brother, dang" (which is what we do in the US so that no one can contest that they've been forgotten).

 

I just think the VFW article I referenced got some bad info. Otherwise, those boilerplate Amphur Wills would have disinheritance clauses, which they don't.

 

[JimGant]

Quote

Quote

An example is where the husband is non Thai and marries a Thai citizen outside of Thailand and does not register the marriage in Thailand.

 

So your saying it gets even worse? That our marriage certificate from Hawaii is not valid because it's not registered in Thailand. Thus, I'm not even a statutory heir under Thai law and therefore all her statutory relatives get her inheritance -- even tho' her Will says I get everything?

The lunacy of all that certainly suggests disinheritance clauses are not needed. Not sure where the VFW got their info (albeit 2009), although they mention JUSMAAG -- but I can't find anything similar there.

[jeffandgop]

41 minutes ago, JimGant said:

So your saying it gets even worse? That our marriage certificate from Hawaii is not valid because it's not registered in Thailand. Thus, I'm not even a statutory heir under Thai law and therefore all her statutory relatives get her inheritance -- even tho' her Will says I get everything?

The lunacy of all that certainly suggests disinheritance clauses are not needed. Not sure where the VFW got their info (albeit 2009), although they mention JUSMAAG -- but I can't find anything similar there.

The statutory heirs comes into play when there is no will. Having a will with designated beneficiaries precludes distribution to statutory heirs by Thai Civil Code. 

Where there is a marriage not registered in Thailand Thai law does not recognize that as a legal marriage; so the risk is without a will the surviving spouse loses out to claims made by the statutory heirs. Having a will naming the spouse the beneficiary irrespective of the marriage not being registered in Thailand ensures the spouse inherits the estate. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by jeffandgop
Typo

[jeffandgop]

44 minutes ago, JimGant said:

So your saying it gets even worse? That our marriage certificate from Hawaii is not valid because it's not registered in Thailand. Thus, I'm not even a statutory heir under Thai law and therefore all her statutory relatives get her inheritance -- even tho' her Will says I get everything?

The lunacy of all that certainly suggests disinheritance clauses are not needed. Not sure where the VFW got their info (albeit 2009), although they mention JUSMAAG -- but I can't find anything similar there.

The statutory heirs comes into play when there is no will. Having a will with designated beneficiaries precludes distribution to statutory heirs  in accordance with the Thai Civil Code. 

Where there is a marriage not registered in Thailand, Thai law does not recognize that as a legal marriage; so the risk is, without a will, the surviving spouse loses out to claims made by statutory heirs. Having a will naming the spouse the beneficiary, irrespective of the marriage  not being registered in Thailand, ensures the spouse inherits the estate. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by jeffandgop
Typo