Foreign Radical Feminists In Thailand

[Yohan]

You have been naughty, ladies!

And Dr Yohan is soon going to give you your lessons!

Come on Dr Yohan, tell them how we men have been oppressed by women in the society worldwide.  It can't be more obvious, can it?  Just look at all the domestic violences, men have to use forces to defend themselves.  Women are sold into prostitution, to become wives(sex slaves) because they are so radical.  Men also like to sexually harrass women because of that.

Don't say I didn't warn you, guys!  It is much better to agree with Dr Yohan or else you are going to have a very hard time, I swear!  I have learnt it!  I now actually am capable of seeing a horse and think that it is a dog.  Say it is white when something is black.  It feels much better!

BTW, Dr Yohan, can you teach me how to walk?

Hi, Meemiathai,

I remember you well because of your statements about dual pricing in Thailand and you are indeed a person, who likes to separate all and everything into 2 parts,

one side in white and one side in black.....

Thais (the rich ones and the poor ones) and the foreigners (the rich ones and the poor ones)

Now you try to separate laws for men and for women.....

About my poll, you maybe refer to, you have to consult a Muslim cleric (Imam), if to convert to Islam as a radical feminist woman is the same as being sold into prostitution as a sex-slave..... no comment by my side, as I am not a Muslim.

Men also like to sexually harrass women because of that.

Not my words, never said something like that, but maybe better fitting in this case is:

Women also like to sexually harrass men because of that.

Equality, please!

Legal problems are already existing in the USA and Europe,

and therefore I think, we do not need such laws here in Thailand

I now actually am capable of seeing a horse and think that it is a dog

I am not responsible for your eyes... A consultation with an eye-doctor might be useful.

Johann

[Yohan]

What privileges does a man have that a woman does not have?

.......................................

I would say the major privelege a man has, is that his opinions receive more attention and are taken more seriously than the opinions of a woman.

.......................................

On a personal level though, I don't mind mixed-culture marriages - in fact, I will soon be in one myself. I do mind Western men who turn to the Third world because they want a servant instead of a partner though. (And I am not saying your marriage seems like that, Johann, but you know what I am talking about.) 

Thank you a lot for your posting.

1-

Tests, how people are reacting..... more attention about POLITICAL postings....

It is not the male name or female name, I think, it is the subject.

The result might be totally different, if you take any other subject, let me say a research about cosmetica ...elderly care or any other actual subject, which is more related to women......

Take a test with subject motorcycle..... = man

Take a test with subject fashion...........= woman

Take a test with subject gardening.......= woman

Take a test with subject football...........= man

Take a test with subject medical research = man or woman should not matter..

and so on.....

The question is, what personal advantage do I have for being a man?

And up to now, I did not see any advantage at all. Sorry....

2- Tests...you can turn them in a way you like.... for example, your own words... looking for a wife from overseas, interracial marriage.....You told me, no direct objection about race...however not looking for a servant.........but what is a servant, and what is a partner?

So there ARE objections.....

These objections are NOT existing, if you look for a local woman - you will not question or discuss that subject, if a rich man marries a compared to him poor-off women out of your own country.

In return with a 50 percent divorce rate among locals in Europe, to defend argumentation for international marriage is easy for me ....as I can argue with the RISK of marrying a local woman - with divorced local people, who envy the loser, just because his marriage is stable with his so-called sex-slave and how do you know, she is really a sex-slave?......Or is it only defamation?

3-

All such researches might be challenged, but one fact is true....and cannot be denied..

It is ALWAYS the man, and NEVER the woman, who will have to pay the bill out of divorce.....the RISK of any financial loss out of marriage is solely the RISK of the MAN.

So how can you say, I have privileges to be a man? Where are my personal advantages to be a man in case of marriage and divorce?

Just out of this 50 percent divorce RISK, which might cost the man well over 40 - 70 percent of his property, because he married the wrong woman for some months, yes, as MAN you are really better off looking over the border to find a woman, who is more faithful, less materialistic and more modest in her life than many women in Europe....

THAILAND is in fact a good option for that, and also many other Asian countries.

4-

Dworkin's statements, which you think, are intellectual masturbations - I openly tell you, I do not know, what intellectual masturbations really are.

Better THAILAND....believe me.....

No intellectual masturbations required

Johann

[natee1]

If you don't believe when Herr Johan says that black is white, and white is green, he suggests you should consult an eye-doctor.

And you sad losers should get a normal life. (Can't remember who suggested that)

[Yohan]

If you don't believe when Herr Johan says that black is white, and white is green, he suggests you should consult an eye-doctor.

And you sad losers should get a normal life. (Can't remember who suggested that)

Your quoting is not correct, Meemiathai said

I now actually am capable of seeing a horse and think that it is a dog

and I recommended to see an eye-doctor.....

Natee1,

Can you not produce occasionally a good posting on this thread, please, like for example ANAMORE or MEADISH SWEETBALL.....

I think, they made very good statements - and that I do not agree with their opinions and the contents of their statements, is another matter.....

Looking at the poll results, and some other statements on this thread, I found some people here even agree with me in some way.

And about Meemiathai, I like his interesting way how he compares facts, and one user (and this was not me) of this forum said a while ago (I think, it was about a Burma maid in Thailand) that he compares the sand of the beach with the dust on the moon.....

Johann

[samran]

No intellectual masturbations required

Johann

wrong Johann...

masturbation (intellectual or otherwise) is a polite way of describing this thread

[Yohan]

No intellectual masturbations required

Johann

wrong Johann...

masturbation (intellectual or otherwise) is a polite way of describing this thread

Great, thanks for your explication, and please open a new thread, with a topic related to Thailand, which does not require intellectual or otherwise masturbation.

Back to you....

Thank you.

Johann

[Asiantiger]

To my opinion ( been maried to a Thai ) and after 8 years traveling in S.E. Asia , have lived in Greece, France , Germany and living today in Australia.

Flerting with Left Ideas and my 52 years of little expiriance

I have seen in Thailand . the so called Femimnist to behave the same , if not the worst way than the "Sexual Hangry Falangs " . Using Femminism as pretext to score semi-educated Thai Dee's or Tom's

This is my Macroskopic and not my Microscopic observation .

In less than 25 words IT IS STRANGE AND DANGEROUS TO TRY TO APPLY , ADVANCED 1st WOPLD IDEAS TO A 3rd WORLD COUNTRY

P.S.

ONLY WOMEN or WOMYN ( AND PEOPLE IN GENERAL) WITH PERSONALATY DISORDERS TRY TO MAKE AN ELEPHANT TO FLY WITHOUT ANY REASON NOBLE ONE PREFEBLY . ( THIS PROGRES= EQUALITY = FEMMINISM etc , TAKES TIME IN THIS REGION )

If this broken English is my falt , so ... mea culpa

[Bad News]

like what if your only two out of the three? And male too?

What can you qualify for in the anger department.?

[samran]

No intellectual masturbations required

Johann

wrong Johann...

masturbation (intellectual or otherwise) is a polite way of describing this thread

Great, thanks for your explication, and please open a new thread, with a topic related to Thailand, which does not require intellectual or otherwise masturbation.

Back to you....

Thank you.

Johann

Why do that Yohann, when I can start a thread which is nothing more than a pathetically veiled flame of another member who has divergent views to me on sexual equality.

I'll then make it "Thailand Related" by putting out a badly worded and biased poll implying that I don't want this type of person in Thailand cause she had the cheek to, shock-horror, ask a question about moving to BKK, outlining what type of person she was so that she could get answers that would suit her.

It breaks the spirit of the forum rules and all it does is piss alot of people off.

[Bluecat]

[i'll then make it "Thailand Related" by putting out a badly worded and biased poll implying that I don't want this type of person in Thailand cause she had the cheek to, shock-horror, ask a question about moving to BKK, outlining what type of person she was so that she could get answers that would suit her.

True, Samran, the poll is very, very biased,...

But anyway, whether they come or not does not really matter.

Thai ladies are on average far, far smarter than farang ladies as far as emotional intelligence is concerned (I mean the abilty to "control" people (men) through their emotions), however "submissive" they appear to the people who do not know them,...

[Yohan]

But anyway, whether they come or not does not really matter.

Thai ladies are on average far, far smarter than farang ladies as far as emotional intelligence is concerned (I mean the abilty to "control" people (men) through their emotions), however "submissive" they appear to the people who do not know them,...

Thanks for your posting, Bluecat, but I think, you misunderstood this poll.

This is not a poll, foreign ladies yes or not,

this is a poll, if we need FOREIGN RADICAL FEMINISTS (male or female) in Thailand...

These are people, who will approach you friendly with some requests, if you have some information about this and that in Thailand... about women, sold children, AIDS, misusing foreigners, just to see this and that, if you can help out....

These people are interested to search ONLY for anything negative, will make reports about it, will try to make money out of that, and will even talk in a bad way about the person helping them, (it is the fault of the men, of course) and they will interfere and attack your family life.

Some people here with this forum are not aware, what RADICAL means....

RADICAL is RADICAL, if MOSLEM, FEMINIST, RACIST or whoever....

and I have my experience with such people, and my opinion is

RADICALS - no way....we do not need them in Thailand or whereever in Asia, we have other kind of problems.

Funny to see, how some weak men are protecting the RADICAL FEMINIST, while on the other side they are talking how bad RADICAL ISLAM or RACISM is in their eyes......

By the way, radical feminists are organized like aggressive religious sects...you can compare them in that way with all the other organized radical groups, they are no exception at all.

But if it comes from a poor helpless weak woman.....she is still a RADICAL.....

OK, they are successful, by calling me a woman-hater (not my first dispute - I do not care)....and some idiot-men are even believing them....(by the way, my wife is not believing, that I am a woman-hater and is complaining, that I love women too much)

Better do not see such radicals as women, but as radicals, and this is what they are...

Johann

[samran]

And what does that make you?

The radical anti-radical???

Bulls Head runs a comedy night regularly. You'd be a hit Johann.

[MsNina]

The radical anti-radical???

lol! Samran, I reckon you've hit the nail on the head.

I think it's worth pointing out that 'radical' does not mean 'fanatic'. Holding radical political views does mean that one holds extreme political views (i.e. that one believes that we need a revolution), but to be fanatic about something means that one expresses an uncritical devotion to something.

[Axel]

Now here is something I can agree to. Equal rights, equal pay for equal work are things I do support. Equal standing in society, absolutely no problem.

Radicalism, however, brings me up the tree, as it means somebody forces me to accept his or in this case her, opinion.

Let's go back to where it started:

I should also emphasise that I am a feminist woman and have no interest in mingling with the men who sustain the exploitation of women and children in Thailand's sex industries.

This not so subtile sentence implies already that men exploit women and children in...

An accusation that is absolutely not based on facts, at least not on facts as I know them from living in Thailand. Are we here talking about foreigners? About Thai men? All men? Is it based on own experience in Thailand or on hearsay?

Or most probably it is just a 'radical' way of saying 'you men are all sex-offenders'.

Such kind of radicals, I don't think Thailand needs, albeit MsNina certainly is welcome here. First, however, I would suggest learn from Thai ladies. Study, if you can, their ways of being tough but feminine. But don't try 'radical' ways to change them. Maybe try to understand why so many men prefer Thai ladies. Not because they are afraid of western or caucasians. Just because they have other things to do but to discuss about radical feminism.

I said in another threat that I do not really know what a radical feminist is, well I am learning.

What I still do not understand, what makes a nice, intelligent, educated young girl

become a feminist and on top of this a radical one?

[MsNina]

QUOTE 

I should also emphasise that I am a feminist woman and have no interest in mingling with the men who sustain the exploitation of women and children in Thailand's sex industries. 

This not so subtile sentence implies already that men exploit women and children in...

An accusation that is absolutely not based on facts, at least not on facts as I know them from living in Thailand. Are we here talking about foreigners? About Thai men? All men? Is it based on own experience in Thailand or on hearsay?

Are you serious?? Yes, men do exploit women and children in the sex industry/ies. If you do not know this despite living in Thailand, then you're probably living in a bubble. Whatever you think about prostitution - whether it is inherently exploitative or not - people from all sides of the debate agree that exploitation of women and children in the sex industry exists. Trafficking of women for prostitution is a fact, and Thailand is a major centre for this, as a source, transit and destination country. You may wish to disagree with me, but the Thai government set up a National Secretariat on Trafficking in Women and Children in the Mekon Sub-region; Thailand has been listed in the US State Department's Trafficking in Persons Report as a Tier Two country (which means that it has significant numbers of trafficked women); the Thai government is working with the Australian government on the Asia Regional Cooperation to Prevent People Trafficking project; a report was recently released in Australia documenting hundreds of cases of Thai women trafficked to Australia, and it is widely acknowledged that Thai women are trafficked to Japan, the Middle East and other countries in their thousands, etc. etc. Surely all these things wouldn't be happening if it weren't actually true.

Also, Axel, such statements like "Or most probably it is just a 'radical' way of saying 'you men are all sex-offenders'." suggest to me that you are not so ignorant of feminism as you pretend to be. Either you know more about it than you pretend or you've paid a lot of attention to Yohan's posts.

I don't care if men prefer Thai women or white women. Believe it or not, getting a man is not a top priority for me.

[Yohan]

And what does that make you?

The radical anti-radical???

Bulls Head runs a comedy night regularly. You'd be a hit Johann.

Thank you for posting this question,

I would like to ask everybody here on this forum....

There is a feminist.....

and there is a RADICAL FEMINIST

what is the opposite?

An Anti-feminist?

and is a woman, who agrees with me, like my wife, an female Anti-feminist?

and if you want to call me a radical......what kind of radical???

Awaiting your ideas....

------

About my way to write this posting....

When I was writing somehow friendly (read all my postings, also these in the Davethaibar thread and Bangkok thread), I was hilarious and preposterous....

Then, I was a woman-hater (totally in the wrong direction, even not questioned by some men here anymore)

Later on I am disturbing and finally not worth the effort to decipher -

And now I am a radical anti-radical......seems you are considering my postings again...

About the *biased poll*: I put the YES clearly in the first line..... 3 votes....

and the clear NO made 14 votes......

May I ask, how do you call the 3 voters for YES?

maybe *woman-freedom-fighters* or what?

May I ask, how do you call the 14 voters for NO?

-----

I accused purposely MsNina, to come to Thailand only as a troublemaker and for the reason to try to make money out of her *biased* research mission, looking only for the NEGATIVE and not even hesitate to interfere in the family life of married couples .....

No reply?

Thank you, MsNina,

MSNina, you are just out of the Primary School for Radical Feminists.....

You are not obliged to reply.....

Johann

(hilarous, women-hater, disturbing, not worth the effort, the radical anti-radical...

doctor.... did I forget something?)

[Yohan]

Also, Axel, such statements like "Or most probably it is just a 'radical' way of saying 'you men are all sex-offenders'." suggest to me that you are not so ignorant of feminism as you pretend to be.  Either you know more about it than you pretend or you've paid a lot of attention to Yohan's posts.

I don't care if men prefer Thai women or white women.  Believe it or not, getting a man is not a top priority for me.

As far as I can see from his postings, Axel has a long history in South East Asia and a huge experience about people in this region.....

He needs not to pay attention to Johann's postings.....

I have also about 30 years living in Asia experience, but I do not have Axel's remarkable patience......I tell you straight, what I am thinking.....

And it seems, you have NO experience at all.....except how to play Primary School Radical Feminist...

Believe it or not, getting a man is not a top priority for me.

In some parts in this world you are not supposed to get a man.....

Better say, you hope sincerely, a good man is getting you, despite you are not able yet to offer that much......

Visit a Buddhist temple and make a wish out of it.....maybe it will work out in this or in another way.... who knows? Sit down somewhere, close your eyes, and wait...maybe some other will decide.... Do this for some minutes, and later on maybe for some hours or even some days......

In Thailand you will learn soon to understand that language can express the same desires and still it sounds differently to the person who is listening....

This is often a good reason, why European men like the Asian girls......

(my wife still goes out 2 times a week for beer without me, and gets 80 percent of my salary.... and this after 27 years working as my sex-slave....)

Think about it...

Johann

By the way, this posting is intended to be serious and is not a hoax....

[Axel]

Are you serious??  Yes, men do exploit women and children in the sex industry/ies.  If you do not know this despite living in Thailand....

Well MsNina, allow me to start from the bottom. To get a wife is neither a top priority for me, I got one for the last 25 years, Asian, and frankly speaking I don't care for the origin. She is a woman and more important, she is my wife and, I am her lousy husband.

Yes, I am learning about radical feminism from both, you and Yohan. Something that never really bothered me b4.

Now, to the exploitation of woman and children. Yes, I do read in the newspapers about this. You might call me ignorant, but I never came across a real human being. Still I agree from what I read, there is a problem in Thailand. Mothers selling their children for 5000 Baht 'because they need the money.' Disgusting.

Trafficking of women for prostitution is a fact? One might agree but how to stop it?

Let's cut off the demand and there will be no supply.

US State Department's Trafficking in Persons Report? Are these the same guys you meet in the relevant areas of Bangkok, doing a first hand (so to speak) research?

Vice versa, are all the ladies, trading their wares down in Sukh Soi ..... exploited? They come from Russia, USA, Canada and some more Eastern European countries. The locals feel they are spoiling the market.

Probably you are right, I am living in Bangkok in a bubble. Entertaining my visitors is hardship for me. But than good news for the wifes at home, most of them go back to their hotels, ALONE.

Travelling myself a bit around Asia I do meet in most countries Thais, besides of Philippinas. Are these girls exploited? No, they go there for the extra income. Staying as long as the local immigration allows them to stay. I don't think they are exploited, they just do enjoy their fees, being Baht 4000 in Singapore, Baht 15000 in Hong Kong. My standard replies are. "Where you come from? Bangkok? Where? Lad Prao? How long your visa? 2 more weeks than back to BKK? OKI I can wait, Lat Prao much cheaper'

Not nice but close to the truth.

Back to your exploitation-theory. I am a cheater. Buy some 'cola' and never fcuck. It is my joice.

On the subject, I still don't like radicals in any form, face or colour.

I respect your statement of being a feminist and still try to find out what this means. But don't radically insist others to follow your way.

[chuckd]

MsNina says...."Believe it or not, getting a man is not a top priority with me."

I don't think you are going to find anybody that will dispute that statement.

I do have a couple of questions, though. As I understand it, you are planning on a trip to Thailand, right? Why? What do you propose accomplishing? Are you going to save some TBG from a life of sin and depravity and get her to follow the Gloria Steinem school of thought? Can you convince her she would be better off doing something you would prefer she do, and not the career path she has chosen?

I am relatively new to posting on the board although I have been a long time member, so please forgive me my ignorance in these matters...but, have you ever been to Thailand before? If so, can you recap a little of your experience from your previous field trip.

Now, lest you think I know not of what I speak...I first visited Thailand in 1976 and now live here. I have owned a bar, had a Thai wife and a Thai girlfriend (not at the same time) and am now, alas, single and happy. I am presently working outside the Kingdom but will retire within 90 days or so. I have enjoyed many pleasures of Thailand, the women being one of those pleasures. Golf is another but that's beside the point.

I apologize if my questions are too personal and am not trying to delve into your personal life. Just a little curious about what your aims are.

[natee1]

By the way, this posting is intended to be serious and is not a hoax....

This is precisely what is so very disturbing about it.

Somebody who for many years never wondered what he might possibly got wrong to get the perpetual negative reaction from others as he does.

As a hoax his postings would be bad enough, but to be serious?

-YOU NEED HELP, Johan. I am sure the Austrian taxpayers wouldn,t mind to finance it. I am sure they also told you already.

People pretending not to have heard of feminism , people who live in Bangkok questioning whether child abuse, traffiking and explotation really exist, but in favor of equality, but radicals, no , they might actually succeed in closing child prostitution down, given another 20 years of hardnosed campaigning, no- don't come to Thailand?

I am starting to realise the postings are real, not some big joke.

[Yohan]

Vice versa, are all the ladies, trading their wares down in Sukh Soi ..... exploited? They come from Russia, USA, Canada and some more Eastern European countries. The locals feel they are spoiling the market.

http://www.vachss.com/mission/dbt_update.html

This is a good link for all, who are accusing OR defending THAILAND.

This aggressive group made a remarkable friendly posting towards Thailand and even this posting is already several years old - end of 2000 - it shows clearly, Thailand is doing what is possible for a country of an GNP/person of about USD 2000,- per year.

I remember about 1998 - together with some students and one professor of an university, we had wild quarrels with them.....

Some people, indeed, even aggressive, do accept facts. Read yourself and check the full text using the link above. - It is nothing wrong to consider and to re-consider facts.

from their internet-page: we want to say that many things have changed since we began our effort. For one thing, Thailand is no longer the major offender, nor is the traffic so concentrated in any one country. And Thailand appears to have changed both its laws and its enforcement to some significant extent (numerous authenticated reports of child sex tourists being imprisoned there; no longer being billed as "Pedophile Paradise" by the freak groups, clear evidence of international cooperation against perpetrators, participation of organizations such as UNICEF with prosecution, etc.).

Thank you, and welcome in Thailand.....

Johann

PS: Some people are still far away from reality.....

natee1 Posted on Fri 2004-05-07, 04:41:39

People pretending not to have heard of feminism , people who live in Bangkok questioning whether child abuse, traffiking and explotation really exist, but in favor of equality, but radicals, no , they might actually succeed in closing child prostitution down, given another 20 years of hardnosed campaigning, no- don't come to Thailand?

-YOU NEED HELP, Johan. I am sure the Austrian taxpayers wouldn,t mind to finance it. I am sure they also told you already.

Natee1, you are confused....mixing up various posters....

About me, I have heard about feminists, and I have fully insurance cover in Japan as an permanent Japanese resident....no Austrian taxpayers required neither for my father, nor for myself....you are wrong.... sorry

Johann

[natee1]

Learn how to quote correctly!!

[samran]

Awaiting your ideas....

you want ideas?

Bugger that, I want to know what drugs you are taking. I want some!!!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Awaiting your ideas....

you want ideas?

Bugger that, I want to know what drugs you are taking. I want some!!!

See if you can get me some too Samran. I need a mood change as well.

[samran]

Awaiting your ideas....

you want ideas?

Bugger that, I want to know what drugs you are taking. I want some!!!

See if you can get me some too Samran. I need a mood change as well.

I'm not sure ole Yohann will tell me.

I'll have to consult a Japanese website to see what they give people who are one piece of sushi short of a lunchtime bento box (so to speak).

[MsNina]

Chuckd, I'm moving to Bangkok for a year to work there on a government project on the traffic in women and children. I have no particular aims for my year other than to do my job well, to learn first-hand about the traffic in women and children, to do volunteer work and to give back to these women, to learn some Thai and to learn about Thai culture, and to enjoy myself. I don't think these aims are particularly sinister nor ambitious even.

I do not plan, as you suggest, to 'save' a Thai woman from the bar scene, from a life of 'sin' and 'depravity'. Prostitution is not sin, nor a career, it's exploitation. A prostitute woman is not a sinful woman, who needs saving. She is more likely a woman who has limited resources in relation to her needs who needs more options in her life. So if I want to do anything about prostitution, I wouldn't be so imperialist or short-sighted as to try to convince the individual woman to leave prostitution. I would instead try to address the demand for prostitute and trafficked women, and I would try to create real alternatives of earning money to prostitution.

I haven't been to Thailand before, which you should be able to tell from my posts because I have never said anything specific about Thai women's situation, only commented upon the structural aspects. Nor have I ever claimed to speak for Thai women. I do however know a lot about prostitution and trafficking in women in Australia and Asia through my study and work experience.

[chuckd]

MsNina:

Thanks for the reasonable and unemotional response. I will try to do the same but I am caustic by nature so some sarcasm might leak out. In advance...please forgive the sarcasm.

Please do not come over here with the attitude that every lady in the p4p business is downtrodden and forced into the business. I do not frequent the lower end brothels where instances such as these may occur. What you will find is that the local population is the primary user of these type facilities. The expat community generally shuns it for various reasons but shuns it nevertheless. The lower end brothels are frequented by Thais and if you try and change this playground, you will really be "fighting city hall", so to speak.

The problem begins up-country where the people live at poverty level. They have few options to gain ground on their poverty other than having their daughters go into the business. This is where you should be working. Improve the level of income for the people and they will not send their daughters South to make the big bucks. The alternative for these girls is working a rice paddy or sewing up soccer balls for Nike at a minimum wage.

Now, to my personal experiences. I have frequented the p4p business on the upper end scale...the go-gos, massage parlors, bars, etc. The girls I have taken out have all been agreeable and willing partners in the experience. They have been well recompensed (by me, at least) and we have, in all cases save one, parted on a friendly note. The one instance was my ex-wife but that's another story. These girls are earning in one night what their parents earn in 10-15 days so I think you can see the allure. The girls I take out are happy (or I won't take them), fun to be with and glad to go with me. By the same token, many of these girls are players and can get blood out of a turnip, as the old saying goes. They are experts at giving the punters the story the guy wants to hear, provided he is willing to part with some baht on a regular or even partial basis. Don't think this is all a one way street of being exploited. We, the Westerners, are more book wise but some of these girls could teach a New York taxi driver a few schemes. You say prostitution is exploitation. After you see the scene locally, you might ask yourself who is being exploited.

One last thing you should consider is the act of sex as viewed by these girls and, in most cases, their families, is not a dirty or obscene thing to do. It is as natural as eating a meal or going shopping and carries no more shame than these acts do. They have no compunction against having sex with their boyfriend in the morning and going short time in the afternoon with another man and cannot understand why Western men see anything wrong with it. The man cannot do the same but they certainly can. Strange set of values in this respect.

Anyway, this is entirely too lengthy and is probably worth what you are paying for it, but you need to be fairly open-minded when you arrive and please don't come in with the attitude that all is wrong in Bangkok and you are all proper and correct. You will find that not to be the case. I hope your year will not be a waste of time but fear all you will do is write a report to GreenPeace or some such NGO and it will come to naught.

As for paedophiles...nail their ass to the barn door on Saturday night. They are the sickos.

[MsNina]

Chuckd, I do not believe that all prostitute women are downtrodden, nor that they are 'forced' into prostitution in the way most people here would understand by 'forced.' There is no chance that I am going to Thailand with such an attitude (and I have consistently said this in my posts).

The prostitute women I know here in Australia are generally incredibly resourceful, usually very funny women who I have immense respect and admiration for. Usually, they have gone to extreme lengths to provide for loved ones and either experience great stigma or spend most of their time hiding what they do, yet still display a remarkable fighting spirit. I expect that the same could be said for Thai women, and the second-hand knowledge I have of the interactions between Thai women and farang men suggests that this is indeed true.

Re: being forced into prostitution: I do not consider the choice between back-breaking work in the paddy fields, exploitative work in sweatshops and prostitution to be a real choice. So I believe that the distinction between 'forced' and 'chosen' prostitution to be a false distinction. What is the point of talking about choice when the options available are equally bad? Most women in prostitution don't want to be doing it. So instead of considering whether or not these women have been physically forced into prostitution, we should be looking at the structures of their lives which mean that prostitution is even an option.

Re: addressing poverty, I certainly agree that we should be working to eradicate poverty. However, there are currently billions of dollars being spent on such programs to prevent trafficking/prostitution, yet millions of women continue to be trafficked every year. These prevention projects may work on a very small-scale - i.e. in the village that is being targetted - but they are completely failing to stop traffic globally. This means we need to think laterally and address the demand side of the equation rather than the supply side.

[mango head]

no, i don't think thailand needs outside feminists barging in and i'll tell you why.

the thais take a dim view of outsiders telling them what to do, especially farangs.

but most importantly, you will come here without the faintest knowledge of thai culture because you wont take the time to try and understand the thais and assume that they will go along with your program just because you say so.

do your self a favor, if you come to thailand, bring lots of film for your camera and don't forget to wear shoes and cover up when visiting the temple of the emerald buddah. enjoy the food and the charming people and on your way out at don muang, thank the friendly immigration people for letting you visit.

chok dee

mango head

[chuckd]

Mango Head:

MsNina says there are billions of dollars being spent to solve the problems but very little is getting accomplished. Now they will think laterally (whatever that means) and come up with the solutions.

The billions being spent are probably going into the pockets of those that are spending it. NGOs are bad about that sort of thing. MsNina will be paid a year's salary and will come up with nothing too, despite all this lateral thinking. I hope she knows what she is in for.

I just hope she doesn't come to Pattaya and make me give up my fornicating ways.