Foreign Radical Feminists In Thailand

[natee1]

Herr Johan,

I don't know how to deal with you any more, to be honest.

There are a few things I would like to have a conversation about, but not on this forum, such as fairness regarding retirement age in Austria etc., but on the whole, I find your post is so riddled with insinuations and comments on things I never mentioned, or possibly plain misunderstandings, it would be tedious to waste other people's time with sorting this out.

However, I invite you to communicate with me by e-mail or possibly a chat in person if you have time in BKK, sometimes it clears things up amazingly fast to talk face to face.

[MsNina]

Marshy, natee1 is talking about hypothetical situations which happen to women, not situations which he himself has experienced. i.e. women experience disparaging retorts to their arguments such as "Is it your time of month?" Natee1, as a man, does not have to put up with this. Try reading things a little less literally and you will understand what he is saying.

Natee1, your understanding of power, privelege and hierarchy is great to see. I hope that others learn from you. Re: the radical feminist statements that all intercourse equals rape, I believe that such statements are more rhetorical than factual. The purpose they serve is to encourage people to really think about all the power relations which underpin the sexual act. I too was offended when I first heard such a statement - did my hetersexual relationship mean that I was not a real feminist? or that I was a victim of rape? I certainly didn't feel like a non-feminist or like a victim! - but when I really thought about the statement, espeically in the context of the so-called sexual liberation of the 1970s, the contemporary pressures on women to have casual sex, the direct pressures from men on women to have sex without a condom and to take sole responsibility for contraception through using the contraceptive pill, the greater risks of getting HIV/AIDS and other STDs for a woman (women are two to three times more likely of getting HIV from a man than a man is from a woman), the greater responsibility women have for raising children if they get pregnant, the stigma attached to abortions and often the illegality of abortions etc. etc. I could see why a feminist might say that all intercourse is rape. (Hope the long unwieldy sentnce makes sense!)

Snark, another voice of sanity and reason!

and Otherstuff, certainly at least a voice of reason. (Though don't think that you can get away with such back-handed 'compliments'!... After such comments, if I were to ever have a beer with you, I would expect you to take on the traditional male role and pay for the drinks... :oB)) I really don't think though the radical feminists have 'hijacked' the movement, certainly not to the extent that radical feminists are the dominant voices within feminism. I think that the backlash against feminism that started in the 80s and the emergence of new feminisms championed by Camille Paglia and Katie Roiphe are the reasons why many women today do not identify as feminists.

Yohan, I have replied to you as much as possible, but find some of your statements not worth the effort and don't always find your points easy to decipher. You seem particularly concerned about people's views on so-called interracial marriage. Honestly, I have no problem with partnerships between people from different cultures. I do object to the phenomenon of 'mail order brides,' and I do wonder about the power differentials in a marriage between a rich Western male and a less asset-rich, Majority World woman. I am not saying by any stretch of the imagination that all such marriages would be exploitative, involve abuse of the woman, or place her in a highly vulnerable situation but that there is a greater likelihood of the woman being abused in any relationship where she is dependent upon the man. For example, Filipina brides in Australia are six times more likely to be the victims of spousal homicide than any other group of wives, and experience higher rates of domestic violence - this is because they are far away from their support networks and thus vulnerable to extreme exploitation and violence. There are very good reasons why feminists are concerned about such marriages. Even the Australian government has acknowledged that there is a particular problem prevalent in Fillipina-Australian unions, and now all Filipinas who come to Australia on a spouse visa receive information about the occurrence of domestic violence against Filipinas in Australia, their rights in Australia, and services that are available to them in Australia such as refuges, telephone hotlines, financial aid, etc., prior to their departure from the Philippines.

[Boon Mee]

Allow Farang Radical Femms in LOS? Don't suppose there's any law against 'em. They'd be lower on the food-chain than the boys from the Church of the Latter Day Saints that people take the piss out of...

[Yohan]

Herr Johan,

I don't know how to deal with you any more, to be honest.

There are a few things I would like to have a conversation about, but not on this forum, such as fairness regarding retirement age in Austria etc., but on the whole, I find your post is so riddled with insinuations and comments on things I never mentioned, or possibly plain misunderstandings, it would be tedious to waste other people's time with sorting this out.

However, I invite you to communicate with me by e-mail or possibly a chat in person if you have time in BKK, sometimes it clears things up amazingly fast to talk face to face.

Question:

Explain me exactly where I can find my personal priviliges for being a man?

I do not see them.....

I do not see them on my banking account,

I do not see them paying taxes,

I do not see them checking my working hours,

I do not see them looking at my clothings,

I do not see them paying medical fees....

I do not see them paying our airtickets to Thailand...

......

I think, this is very clear English.

I do not see any privileges for me at all....

much more the opposite......

Where are my privileges?

And please do not come with that funny formulation, that I can go out alone for a beer and my wife cannot.....

Johann

[natee1]

If you still can't see your priviliges, maybe you are still looking in the wrong places...

I do not want to waste other people's time (or mine) on this here, in this thread, in this forum. E-mail me for further communication with view to a personal meeting.

Clear enough English?

[Yohan]

Yohan, I have replied to you as much as possible, but find some of your statements not worth the effort and don't always find your points easy to decipher.

Hi, MsNina,

It is not so easy to decipher, and not worth the effort.....

Last time, you remember, my postings were hilarious, then I was a woman-hater, and later on, you found me disturbing.

Now you can even not read my postings anymore?

OK, let me say it to you in a much more direct way:

Question:

What does a radical feminist expect from a man?

Wrong Question, Correction:

What should a radical feminist do with a man?

Answer:

Take from a man, whatever you can,

and give him as little as possible.....

For you this is *equality*.........

You are not accustomed to resistance, because you think, it might be so impolite not to give you, what you desire.....because you are a woman.........and in your idiot ideology, there are only poor and good women.

Yes, there are some men, they will kiss your feet, and you can kick them, and such men will give you what you like, until they are bankrupt......

I am sorry for such masochistic idiotic men, who gave to a woman all what they had and after they were left alone, lost everything or with a bundle of debits.

A radical feminist will never consider any man and his feelings in any situation....

A radical feminist considers any man as an object or criminal and the feeling for him goes through his wallet only. (in Thailand they say, walking ATM)

For me, any radical feminist is an outsider, and should such people show up in my house, then I have to fight them as enemies, and this is, what they are....

Johann

[natee1]

invitation to meet with me canceled.

Seriously disturbed, this guy.

And since it's all off topic, I propose to close the threat.

Just realised my spelling mistake, but leave it as it is...

[Yohan]

If you still can't see your priviliges, maybe you are still looking in the wrong places...

You told me, there are privileges for me, because I am a man.....

If you say such an argument, you should be able to proof it.

Otherwise such an argument is not valid and it is an untrue statement.

Write them all down, my many many privileges... everybody here should be able to see them.....

I do not think, it is a time-waste....

Many men here - I am sure about - also would like to see their many many privileges they have.....

I do not think however, there is a reply, because there are no privileges....

Johann

[Yohan]

This is my last posting here and George should close this thread.

Many thanks for posting your opinions....

I like the result of this poll, openly said.....confirming, what I expected....

There are no privileges....

We do not need all these foreign radical feminists here in Thailand - this includes the radical male feminists as well.

Thailand should remain unchanged as it is.

However to convert to Islam might be an alternate solution...

Thank you again....

Johann

[Axel]

Johann, don't close it so early. I start to like your banter with the young radical lady.

Man, she is not even here, but promised me previously she will not demonstrate her feminist ways to the sensitive Thais.

Keep it coming boys.

[samran]

This is my last posting here and George should close this thread.

Good.....cause it was such a silly thread to begin with.

Bunch of blokes who like their LOS boys club just the way it is. God forbid someone coming to Thailand and telling these boys to take their hand off it.

[natee1]

Herr Johan,

I offered you to exchange views one-to-one.

In the last 3 1/2 hours since my original offer, you have put up several posts here, but I haven't received any e-mail from you, only a public threat to 'fight them as enemies', a radical feminist, as you labelled me also.

You have no interest in resolving differences.

Go and wind somebody else up!!!

[anamore]

Dear Johann,

You should have considered the possibilities of this subject before starting a thread about it.

At first you try to make the topic feminisme and Nina sound ridiculous.

Your pouring out your own experience in Austria still makes you outrageous.

But this is not a good base to start a discussion. You are thinking with your hart not with your head. You feel victimized by women and there is no good woord you can say about them.

But society in Austria is not dominated by women. The decisionmakers are men and so are the politicians. Austria is quite conservative let me tell you and others living far from it. You see it in so many things around, even in Wenen.

I'm a woman I don't call myself feminist but it could be that Iam one.

When I wanted to go to work, because I wanted to do something with my education and earn some money of my own everybody would say:no because you have young children, this was 16 years ago. At the first job I was among men (28)the only woman and I had to give advice to guys that wouldn't take it. They were om the field and I was at the office dealing with the legal aspects of their work everyday. I was younger than them. Can it be worse? I had to became assertive and stop pouring coffee in their mugs, because they couldn't handle the different sides of a woman.

It took a long time before they would relate to me on a equal basis. It was not their fault, but also not mine. We had to change the status quo. I also had to learn lots of things about men. We are in this together. "This" meaning the world we live in. I don't want to export my opinions to other countries and I certainly won't paternalize women in other cultures. They are doing fine and they wil get there where they want to be at their own pace. End of the week I'll be in thailand and I wil look at the women and the way they live, but I won't tell them what to do. The way I live and think is different and they know how to solve their problems.

I could give so many examples of laws and uses that create a gap between men and women, their situation and possibilities in society in Holland and sorrounding countries.

I have much more freedom than my mothersgeneration had, but I have had to work hard for it and still do. There have been times that I wished I could be a housewife like my mother was, because at home she was the boss and my father wouldn't be anywhere without her, they completed each other.

Nina is really busy with the ideology behind women's rights, but in many things I agree with her and with Natee too. Just open up your mind to this matters.

The pain you suffered in the past doesn't have anything to do with feminisme.

greetings

anamore

[meemiathai]

You have been naughty, ladies!

And Dr Yohan is soon going to give you your lessons!

Come on Dr Yohan, tell them how we men have been oppressed by women in the society worldwide. It can't be more obvious, can it? Just look at all the domestic violences, men have to use forces to defend themselves. Women are sold into prostitution, to become wives(sex slaves) because they are so radical. Men also like to sexually harrass women because of that.

Don't say I didn't warn you, guys! It is much better to agree with Dr Yohan or else you are going to have a very hard time, I swear! I have learnt it! I now actually am capable of seeing a horse and think that it is a dog. Say it is white when something is black. It feels much better!

BTW, Dr Yohan, can you teach me how to walk?

[taxexile]

if women want equal rights with men,then thats fine with me. i've no wish to see women circumcised against their will,beaten,paid less than men,prevented from getting jobs that they are qualified to get,working as prostitutes if that is what they want, etc.etc.etc.

but there is something about the postings of the radicals that sounds revengeful,mean,malicious,demanding,spiteful,hateful and nasty that leads me to believe that such people would have trouble having a long relationship with a man.

there would be too much analysis, too much searching for something that might be wrong in the relationship, for that reason alone i would not wish to see the rise of radical feminism in thailand.

the majority of thai women seem to be in control of their situations, they control most businesses here, they know how to keep on top of their men in more ways than one,they know when to interfere and they know when not to and they dont take sh1t from no one. if there were more women in parliament here then it would be the perfect country, cos it sure is the men who ruin a lot of stuff here,

the feminists are welcome here,sure, but come to learn, not to teach.

and loosen up, relax, dont take life in the "majority world " so seriously.

[natee1]

Women are retiring earlier than men in Austria, so it is not true what you say, it is a lie made up by bad women who you obey, poor spineless soul.

[taxexile]

if women want equal rights with men,then thats fine with me. i've no wish to see women circumcised against their will,beaten,paid less than men,prevented from getting jobs that they are qualified to get,working as prostitutes if that is what they want, etc.etc.etc.

but there is something about the postings of the radicals that sounds revengeful,mean,malicious,demanding,spiteful,hateful and nasty that leads me to believe that such people would have trouble having a long relationship with a man.

there would be too much analysis, too much searching for something that might be wrong in the relationship, for that reason alone i would not wish to see the rise of radical feminism in thailand.

the majority of thai women seem to be in control of their situations, they control most businesses here, they know how to keep on top of their men in more ways than one,they know when to interfere and they know when not to and they dont take sh1t from no one. if there were more women in parliament here then it would be the perfect country, cos it sure is the men who ruin a lot of stuff here,

the feminists are welcome here,sure, but come to learn, not to teach.

and loosen up, relax, dont take life in the "majority world " so seriously

[natee1]

hoops, didn't I just see the same post on the last page?

Am I included when you relate to 'the postings of the radicals'?

Reading on, I guess not, good. I' d hate to have that label stuck on.

Looks like we were both putting a post up at the same time, my bit in between your 2 is a response to meemiathai's post, sorry.

[meadish_sweetball]

What privileges does a man have that a woman does not have?

I would say the major privelege a man has, is that his opinions receive more attention and are taken more seriously than the opinions of a woman. This has been scientifically proved in a number of tests.

Researchers in Sweden have presented fake news clippings attributed to politicians with the fictive names "Ingvar" and "Ingvor", where the first one is a male Swedish name, and the latter is a female name.

The news clippings would read, for example: "MP Ingvar/Ingvor Larsson suggests that restaurants close one hour earlier at night, to decrease violent incidents induced from alcohol in after hours." (Not an actual example, and please dont comment on the example, that's beside the point).

The test group was then asked of their opinion of the politician behind the suggestion. No matter what the political suggestion was, the fictive man Ingvar received more positive comments from the test group males AND females than the fictive woman, Ingvor.

Another test was carried out with auditions to a musical college, which had slightly more male than female students, despite the fact that more women applied to get in.

The auditions were originally conducted so that the judges could see the applicants while they played their instruments. For the purposes of the test, the applicants were placed behind a screen and thus invisible to the judges. The number of women who were admitted to the school immediately increased when the judges could not see them.

At a Swedish mixed school, boys occupied more than 75% of the teacher's attention in everyday classroom situations. It was demonstrated that if the teacher attempted to let the female pupils time speak 50% of the time, the boys thought the teacher was being unfair, and the teacher felt as if he/she gave the girls 90% of the attention. (Einarsson & Hultman, 1984). Even some of the girls asked the teacher to "go back to normal", because they felt uncomfortable receiving the same amount of attention as the boys.

My ex-GF wrote a thesis on news articles and gender, examining five Swedish daily newspapers. Her first exercise was comparing how many times men were mentioned in the newspapers, and how many times women were mentioned. Her overall figures were 73% for men, and 27% for women. In the "heavy" sections such as politics and society, men dominated even more.

I can only say it is obvious that our society gives more importance to men in almost all respects. Being born a capable woman means having to struggle harder than being born a capable man. This is true EVEN in the most equal countries in the West.

That being said, I think Dworkin's statements are intellectual masturbations and they don't really give me that much - the experiments stated above are much more to the point.

Yohann, you are using very classical techniques in proving your argument: trying very hard to find the most outrageous statements of his opponents, and then ignoring all the valid points they may have.

On a personal level though, I don't mind mixed-culture marriages - in fact, I will soon be in one myself. I do mind Western men who turn to the Third world because they want a servant instead of a partner though. (And I am not saying your marriage seems like that, Johann, but you know what I am talking about.)

Yohann, please let me ask you:

Why do you think laws are being passed in the West to improve women's situation? Why do you think these laws are being passed with a majority vote?

Honestly, now.

[meadish_sweetball]

there would be too much analysis, too much searching for something that might be wrong in the relationship, for that reason alone i would not wish to see the rise of radical feminism in thailand.

This is actually why my relationship with my (feminist) ex-GF did not work. Too much time was spent analysing the relationship, instead of just making it work. The constant discussions drove me up the wall - although they were very good intellectual exercises.

the majority of thai women seem to be in control of their situations, they control most businesses here, they know how to keep on top of their men in more ways than one,they know when to interfere and they know when not to and they dont take sh1t from no one. if there were more women in parliament here then it would be the perfect country, cos it sure is the men who ruin a lot of stuff here,

A lot of women control small businesses here, but do they really control "most businesses"? Do you have actual figures? In many cases, isn't it that the women work while the man gets drunk off the money - in other words, the man seems like a joke, and the woman seems to be on top because she is dealing with you, but at the end of the day when the shop closes and the man is getting drunk, is she still in control?

I dont know - anyone here with some official or personal insights?

the feminists are welcome here,sure, but come to learn, not to teach.

I think that goes for feminists and non-feminists alike. Anyone who comes here to preach without knowing how to first observe with their mouth shut and their ears open, and then ask questions to make sure they get the picture, should consider staying home. Point 1 a in intercultural understanding.

[taxexile]

A lot of women control small businesses here, but do they really control "most businesses"? Do you have actual figures? In many cases, isn't it that the women work while the man gets drunk off the money - in other words, the man seems like a joke, and the woman seems to be on top because she is dealing with you, but at the end of the day when the shop closes and the man is getting drunk, is she still in control?

are you seriously suggesting that the majority of thai men do actually spend all their time getting drunk on the profits of a business run by the woman.

no thai woman would stand for that for very long. thai women know very well when to walk out of a relationship, just as western women do, the thais are a lot more liberated than these wimmin radicalists give them credit for.

with thais.. life is for real here and the women have to do what is necessary to survive,just as the men do,in the west these wimmin radicalists are just putting on a show, just like the make up they so despise, they have to have something to bitch about ,to shout about,the slightest thing that they percieve is wrong in life, well lets start a pressure group.we must be disadvantaged,lets shout.

as with all species in nature,life is about one thing and one thing only,and the women will always be in control of that. sure, mens physical strength advantage coupled with an ugly streak in some characters will cause problems and the laws should be written to take care of that, but the women of this country by and large do not need any advice from western wimmins groups because they have got it right here, despite what you may think or deduce from appearances. appearances can be deceptive as you well know.

none of us have any rights in this world,we only have responsibilities

[natee1]

but there is something about the postings of the radicals that sounds revengeful,mean,malicious,demanding,spiteful,hateful and nasty

I wondered what exactly you mean, reading your last post I got a good feel of this 'something'.

[meadish_sweetball]

Taxexile:

No, I don't suggest the majority of Thai small business proceeds go to booze for husbands - but I know that some do, and from what I have seen myself, the women seem to work harder than the men. I don't have any exact figures or results to prove anything to you - then again, I don't see you trying to prove your point with anything other than your own words either.

Neither am I suggesting Thai women are incapable of making their own decisions or anything like that. I also clearly see that women in this culture are more liberated in some areas than in many other cultures around the world. This doesnt mean that they've got the best deal in the universe, however.

There is a lot of pressure on Thai girls in their upbringing - appearances, responsibilities, behaviour, and obedience. From what I see, I think a lot less pressure is put on Thai boys, relative to my own culture.

Is your experience different? Then tell me about it.

[taxexile]

I wondered what exactly you mean, reading your last post I got a good feel of this 'something'.

you are probably right!

[mbkudu]

Come on Boon Mee, where is your Global Whining banner?

[meemiathai]

Very, very, very good inputs, meadish_sweetball.

Thanks.

[Jeepz]

It all circles around the fact that life ain't fair. Should we make it fair? Sure! So what's fair? Can of Worms! Big Fat Nightcrawlers. On meth, I think.

Older guys don't take advice from young woman. Okay, I can easily believe that. They don't take advice from young guys much either. Ain't particularly chauvanistic, it age-ism. Bright eyed, Know It All, Young Noize Makers. Well, until they turn out to be right. And talented. And capable. So on and so on.

Some people simply expect respect. Occasionally they demand respect. But usually, in the end, they have to actually earn it.

Jeepz

[Yohan]

I am a foreign woman newly married to a wonderful Thai man. ;

I love to dress nicely, I don't leave the house without makeup, I keep my figure slim and I am NOT hairy! I am a girlie girl and I love being feminine. I also yearn to be the best wife I can be for my wonderful husband... believe me he wants to stay at home with me at nights, if you know what I mean... 

MsNina Posted on Mon 2004-05-03, 23:14:38

Equity feminist= liberal feminist. You want to be equal to men. Why be equal to men - and everything that entails, such as militarisation, state deregulation and liberal markets, colonialism/post-colonialism etc - when we could be liberated from all that?

And darling, you don't need make-up!! It's OK to be yourself! Love yourself as you are!

If a person like MsNina is disturbing your life as a married couple, the only choice the husband has, is to consider her as an enemy and to fight her.

Should he lose the fight, he might find himself divorced and most of his property and savings gone and he does not even know why....

Fight all radicals, this is the simple response.....radical Muslims, radical racists, or in this case radical feminists....

And MsNina, I would prefer you stay off Thailand and other parts of Asia, we do not need such people like you.

Johann

[keda]

For those of you  who have a problem with women deciding how they want to live their own lives, it gets worse, I personaly know a Thai woman who works in the UK and who distributes information to Thai brides who have arrived in the UK on how to get their rights to the matrimonial property..

Me too, hardfaced bitch, married a Brit, scored citizenship and dumped him less than 2 years later not forgetting her rights on the way out.

Now she's a financially sorted neofeminazi advising her sisters not only on matrimonial rights but also immigration, benefits and other state perks.

I wonder, could it be the same one? Mine's in London, can't be too many like that in one city - Holy Mary Mother of God please say there's only the one!

[Yohan]

Yohann, please let me ask you:

Why do you think laws are being passed in the West to improve women's situation? Why do you think these laws are being passed with a majority vote?

Honestly, now.

I certainly do not want the sex industry driven underground - I want it eradicated. Big difference. The closest we've come to an ideal model is the Swedish model whereby the women prostitutes are completely decriminalised and only the men, the buyers of sex, are criminalised. (MsNina, radical feminist, posting on Thaivisa, Wed 2004-04-28, 20:04:11)

1- We do not need such laws here in Thailand or the other countries in Asia, by the way, I do not think, they are equal or fair.....

Further, all these laws, separating man and woman are all now under revision in the European community due to legal rights out of equality.

Sweden, Austria (already members) and Norway with the last ones on the list.

2- Most laws were made after the WWII, to protect helpless impoverished women. Now radical feminists are trying to extend the meaning of such laws often for the reason to misuse justice with ridiculous claims (see above Swedish regulations) - United States has also its hard time with that.

3- You should consult a lawyer with this question, as I did. It is very questionable, if such laws keeping the separation between man and woman if seriously callenged in the Constitutional Court - they backfire, and often help the criminal more than the victim...

However unlike radical women, men mostly remain silent and feel ashamed, when cheated, or turn to violence....

I think, both are the wrong ways. Men also should seek immediately legal advice.

Example: (basic law in Austria to protect women, who are cheating, but still are helpless=jobless and claiming support money)

wife cheats the man, divorce only, if the man pays her support

man cheats the wife, divorce only, if the man pays her support

(this is NO typing mistake! Cheated by your wife is no reason for legal divorce! The man has to pay in any case.)

However:

If a crazy guy, alcoholician, violent and drug-abuser, jobless and so on....is cheating a woman, who has a permanent job and her own housing, then he might challenge this law in constitutional court, claiming equality....(especially now with the new legal situation within the European Union)

He might probably win, and the mistreated woman has to pay for his well-being, to support him....

It is idiotic, to protect the criminal more than the victim, man or woman does not matter in this case.....

Again, we do not need such laws in Thailand, which are mostly a relict out of the chaos of the WWII.

Johann