Thailand approves $393-mln purchase of Chinese submarines

[wabothai]

19 hours ago, Happyman58 said:

Save face you think

make face - lose face

[Joebuzz]

So who are they going to use to install the screen doors?

[Ahab]

12 hours ago, jabis said:

"Export variant: S20[edit]
At IDEX-2013, China revealed a scaled-down version of Type 039A submarine designated as S20, specially intended for export. The main difference between S20 and Type 039A is that the AIP system on the original Type 039A is deleted, but can be available and easily integrated due to modular design of S20, if potential customers choose to purchase AIP systems separately. Due to its modular design, a variety of sensors and weapons can also be easily adopted up on customers' requests.[10] Specifications of S20:[11]"

 

Extra moolah and you get AIP, S26T(Thailand variant) has not been announced to be purchased with it anywhere, so fitted with regular diesel engines and common sensor and weaponry systems it's just another rustbucket, so hardly state of the art...

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine

Yes it will not have AIP, which allows it to stay submerged for extended periods of time without running it's very quiet German manufactured MTU Diesel engines. AIP (air independent propulsion) does make the platform more stealthy (do not have to be shallow charging batteries for long periods of time, but as I mentioned previously these platforms are hard to detect even when they are charging batteries running the Diesel engines. Submerged on the battery they are formidable anti-surface ship platforms, especially in a congested shallow water littoral area such as the Gulf of Thailand. Still questionable if Thailand needs submarines, but this choice is a good one.

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, digger70 said:

Are they the ones that Dive down and stay Down?  ((:

Possible, but the shallow Gulf of Thailand (average depth 80 m) is an excellent place to sink if you have to sink. You could swim out and the water is warm.

[jabis]

32 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yes it will not have AIP, which allows it to stay submerged for extended periods of time without running it's very quiet German manufactured MTU Diesel engines. AIP (air independent propulsion) does make the platform more stealthy (do not have to be shallow charging batteries for long periods of time, but as I mentioned previously these platforms are hard to detect even when they are charging batteries running the Diesel engines. Submerged on the battery they are formidable anti-surface ship platforms, especially in a congested shallow water littoral area such as the Gulf of Thailand. Still questionable if Thailand needs submarines, but this choice is a good one.

I think you are a little bit confused by the terms, as you gave an earful to one previous poster about the cruciality of facts, in this case, the same argument is trashing your position also. The Diesel engines - well are Chinese "knock-offs" also - and don't have shit to do with German manufactured propulsion technology...
``By June 1996 that team had developed into the "specialized engine engineering research center"; by 2008 there were more than a hundred researchers. In 1998, the first experimental sample was built and a decade later and after a dozen technological breakthroughs, a wide range of matured versions became commercially available and the newest diesel-electric submarine in Chinese navy became the first customer. Although the official Chinese source had not mentioned the exact class of the submarine, it is generally accepted that the class is no other than Type 039A Yuan class, since it is the newest conventional powered submarine in the Chinese navy. The engine is built by Shanghai Qiyao Propulsion Technology Ltd. (上海齐耀动力技术有限公司), a wholly owned subsidiary of the 711th Institute.[7]`` 

 

EDIT:

Also you seem to have ignored all the relevant details as well, that was provided; all the advanced tech you seem to refer to is all but non-existent. A sub like this - even with all the bells and whistles - is totally useless in every corner where they are trying to place it 25-60m maximum !AVERAGE! depth - yeh let's not use patrol boats 'aye :)

Edited April 27, 2017 by jabis
A little rant-ish :)

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, jabis said:

I think you are a little bit confused by the terms, as you gave an earful to one previous poster about the cruciality of facts, in this case, the same argument is trashing your position also. The Diesel engines - well are Chinese "knock-offs" also - and don't have shit to do with German manufactured propulsion technology...
``By June 1996 that team had developed into the "specialized engine engineering research center"; by 2008 there were more than a hundred researchers. In 1998, the first experimental sample was built and a decade later and after a dozen technological breakthroughs, a wide range of matured versions became commercially available and the newest diesel-electric submarine in Chinese navy became the first customer. Although the official Chinese source had not mentioned the exact class of the submarine, it is generally accepted that the class is no other than Type 039A Yuan class, since it is the newest conventional powered submarine in the Chinese navy. The engine is built by Shanghai Qiyao Propulsion Technology Ltd. (上海齐耀动力技术有限公司), a wholly owned subsidiary of the 711th Institute.[7]`` 

Which are based completely on MTU Diesels originally supplied for the Song Class SSK. Whoever makes them they have the exact acoustic characteristics as the original MTU engines on which they are based. Including quietness of the diesel signature.

[jabis]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Which are based completely on MTU Diesels originally supplied for the Song Class SSK. Whoever makes them they have the exact acoustic characteristics as the original MTU engines on which they are based. Including quietness of the diesel signature.

That would be correct if the hulls anti 35dB "shock absorbers" were stock, which kinda make it on par with their german counterparts :)

Edited April 27, 2017 by jabis

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, jabis said:

That would be correct if the hulls anti 35dB "shock absorbers" were stock, which kinda make it on par with their german counterparts :)

How many Chinese or Russian submarines have you ever detected and tracked? If the number is more than zero, or you have something more than a Wikipedia article to go with maybe you would have a point. Song and Yuan class diesels are quiet (the Song is more likely to be acoustically similar to the Thailand export version) but it will still be a very challenging ASW target. 

 

I have 24 years experience as a US Navy Submarine Acoustic Intelligence Specialist (google "ACINT NEC ST0416"), I kind of know this topic well. 

[dageurreotype]

Anyway, back on topic, a bunch of bigwig businessmen are insisting on full disclosure soonest, according to today's BP. Better late than never ..

[Happyman58]

1 hour ago, dageurreotype said:

Anyway, back on topic, a bunch of bigwig businessmen are insisting on full disclosure soonest, according to today's BP. Better late than never ..

They wont get it everything is done behind close doors here

[Happyman58]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

How many Chinese or Russian submarines have you ever detected and tracked? If the number is more than zero, or you have something more than a Wikipedia article to go with maybe you would have a point. Song and Yuan class diesels are quiet (the Song is more likely to be acoustically similar to the Thailand export version) but it will still be a very challenging ASW target. 

 

I have 24 years experience as a US Navy Submarine Acoustic Intelligence Specialist (google "ACINT NEC ST0416"), I kind of know this topic well. 

Ok guys the war is over

[electric]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

How many Chinese or Russian submarines have you ever detected and tracked? If the number is more than zero, or you have something more than a Wikipedia article to go with maybe you would have a point. Song and Yuan class diesels are quiet (the Song is more likely to be acoustically similar to the Thailand export version) but it will still be a very challenging ASW target. 

 

I have 24 years experience as a US Navy Submarine Acoustic Intelligence Specialist (google "ACINT NEC ST0416"), I kind of know this topic well. 

 

Ahab .... haven't seen you on BE for a while. How's the oversize shoes going ? I acknowledge your expert opinion on this submarine topic.

 

Real question. Realistically, will these Thai subs be able to avoid detection by navies with state-of-the-art technology as it exits today ? 

 

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, electric said:

 

Ahab .... haven't seen you on BE for a while. How's the oversize shoes going ? I acknowledge your expert opinion on this submarine topic.

 

Real question. Realistically, will these Thai subs be able to avoid detection by navies with state-of-the-art technology as it exits today ? 

 

I am lurking on BE, living in Lahansai now. Short answer is yes, they are extremely difficult to detect if operated proficiently. If you are on a surface ship trying to kill one of these guys make sure your will is in order and you know where your lifeboat station is.

[jabis]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I am lurking on BE, living in Lahansai now. Short answer is yes, they are extremely difficult to detect if operated proficiently. If you are on a surface ship trying to kill one of these guys make sure your will is in order and you know where your lifeboat station is.

Tracking and pinging Russian subs was the favorite pastime back in Finnish Defence Forces. And though I don't have your 24 years of expertise on sonar equipment, naval assets are quite familiar to me. I'll take your word for the drive signature, but still I'd say that when the export version was announced, it clearly had anything but state of the art machinery in it, and I highly doubt the S26T is coming with all the bells and whistles, as the price tag would have had to be exponentially higher per boat :) Also as you very well know, the subs will be easy as pie to identify from air, whenever in the shallow Gulf of Thailand, which moots many of the points, including running silent, what's your take on that? :)

[Ahab]

36 minutes ago, jabis said:

Tracking and pinging Russian subs was the favorite pastime back in Finnish Defence Forces. And though I don't have your 24 years of expertise on sonar equipment, naval assets are quite familiar to me. I'll take your word for the drive signature, but still I'd say that when the export version was announced, it clearly had anything but state of the art machinery in it, and I highly doubt the S26T is coming with all the bells and whistles, as the price tag would have had to be exponentially higher per boat :) Also as you very well know, the subs will be easy as pie to identify from air, whenever in the shallow Gulf of Thailand, which moots many of the points, including running silent, what's your take on that? :)

That is always the vulnerability of a diesel electric submarine (having to be near the surface to recharge batteries on a regular basis). I prefer the US nuclear fast attack submarines, we make our own oxygen, and fresh drinking water, the only limitation to how long we can stay submerged is the amount of food we can pack onboard, and how often we are tasked to copy the broadcast.