Usufruct Voided On Divorce?

[JJJIIIMMM]

Will my usufruct on the land where i live be cancelled if i divorce?

 

We were planning to divorce, and then sell the land and house and split the proceeds, but i would be depending on the usufruct to ensure my wife could not evict me until we sold up.

 

If the usufruct is voided once divorce is complete i would need to sell the house before signing for divorce, to be sure of my half.......

[simoh1490]

The usufruct CAN be cancelled but it is not automatically cancelled.

 

You would be wise to sell the property before the divorce, if that is possible. Presumably your wife granted you the usufruct whilst you were married?

[JJJIIIMMM]

8 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

The usufruct CAN be cancelled but it is not automatically cancelled.

 

You would be wise to sell the property before the divorce, if that is possible. Presumably your wife granted you the usufruct whilst you were married?

 

yes, the usufruct was granted after we got married. 

 

Is it easy for her to do, and can be done quickly, or is it up to each individual land department?

[simoh1490]

1 minute ago, JJJIIIMMM said:

 

yes, the usufruct was granted after we got married. 

 

Is it easy for her to do, and can be done quickly, or is it up to each individual land department?

The house is a matrimonial asset that is shared and will be divided at the time of divorce, it is then that the usufruct will almost certainly be cancelled - the land office merely carries out the instructions of the court.

[funandsuninbangkok]

There is a law in Thailand that a wife can "change their mind" within one year of signing a document. 

[JJJIIIMMM]

51 minutes ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

There is a law in Thailand that a wife can "change their mind" within one year of signing a document. 

which document are you referring to mate?  the usufruct was granted over 3 years ago......  do you mean that, or the divorce document?

[12DrinkMore]

Only if the house/land was purchased after marriage will it count as matrimonial property, otherwise it will be considered as the wife's property. 

 

I don't think the usufruct can be cancelled unilaterally. If if can, then more than just a few guys thinking they have secured the right to live on a plot of land for life will be having existential issues. It would be good to have this confirmed by someone with legal knowledge and experience.

[GOLDBUGGY]

8 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Only if the house/land was purchased after marriage will it count as matrimonial property, otherwise it will be considered as the wife's property. 

 

I don't think the usufruct can be cancelled unilaterally. If if can, then more than just a few guys thinking they have secured the right to live on a plot of land for life will be having existential issues. It would be good to have this confirmed by someone with legal knowledge and experience.

Well, not really.

 

If the Usufruct was written with you future wife prior to the marriage then this would indeed be considered the wife's property before marriage. However, a Divorce only cancels contracts made between husband and wife. Since the Usufruct was written prior to this time, then this Usufruct would also still be valid.  

 

A Usufruct cannot be cancelled unilaterally and like you mentioned. But the property can change hands during the terms of this agreement. For example in the invent of your wife's death, if she holds the Land Title. But since this agreement was written prior to her death, then it still holds true and is still valid. In Contract Law, the consideration they take into account is the conditions on the date this Contract was written and signed, and not what happens 10 years after. Unless of course both partied wish to void the Contract.

 

If the Op has an agreement to sell this property and split the proceeds with his x-wife, then he should get this on legal paper. This saves on the possibility of one person not being fully understanding the agreement, or someone changing there mind later.  To make this valid then a time line will also have to be given. Say one year from the date of signing this agreement that the property must be sold by them and proceeds split, otherwise the person in best position may not want to sell the said property. Just say he tried and then keep the property for himself.

[elgordo38]

16 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

There is a law in Thailand that a wife can "change their mind" within one year of signing a document. 

Would not surprise me. 

[12DrinkMore]

7 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

However, a Divorce only cancels contracts made between husband and wife.

 

So any usufruct written during a marriage in the land deed is rendered void through a divorce?

 

That is more than a bit of a bummer.

 

There are any number of guys who have "secured" land in this way. 

[GOLDBUGGY]

I don't think the Divorce Courts in Thailand are really much different than yours back home. If a Husband and Wife buy a house together in your own country, and even if just the Husband works and the Wife stays at home, and the house is in his name only, it is considered joint property of the marriage. In the event of a Divorce there, then the value of there joint assets are split 50/50, including the house.

 

The same holds true in Thailand as well. In your home country and if you had the money, you could buy your x-wife out of this house and keep it for yourself. But the big difference in Thailand is that you are not allowed to own the land your house sits on. I suppose you could still buy her out and keep the house as a Usufruct, but why would anyone want to do that? After the Divorce, why would anyone want to still have a long term commitment with an X-wife? So better to sell it and move on I think.

[elgordo38]

1 minute ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

So any usufruct written during a marriage in the land deed is rendered void through a divorce?

 

That is more than a bit of a bummer.

 

There are any number of guys who have "secured" land in this way. 

She does have to make room for the new love of her life to move in. She certainly does not want to mix the new with the old outgoing one. 

[elgordo38]

1 minute ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

I don't think the Divorce Courts in Thailand are really much different than yours back home. If a Husband and Wife buy a house together in your own country, and even if just the Husband works and the Wife stays at home, and the house is in his name only, it is considered joint property of the marriage. In the event of a Divorce there, then the value of there joint assets are split 50/50, including the house.

 

The same holds true in Thailand as well. In your home country and if you had the money, you could buy your x-wife out of this house and keep it for yourself. But the big difference in Thailand is that you are not allowed to own the land your house sits on. I suppose you could still buy her out and keep the house as a Usufruct, but why would anyone want to do that? After the Divorce, why would anyone want to still have a long term commitment with an X-wife? So better to sell it and move on I think.

Your right of course and also who wants to live with old memories. 

[GOLDBUGGY]

17 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

There is a law in Thailand that a wife can "change their mind" within one year of signing a document. 

Nonsense! She signed the Marriage Contract as well. Are you trying to tell us now that in a years time she can change her mind on that to?

[elgordo38]

19 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Well, not really.

 

If the Usufruct was written with you future wife prior to the marriage then this would indeed be considered the wife's property before marriage. However, a Divorce only cancels contracts made between husband and wife. Since the Usufruct was written prior to this time, then this Usufruct would also still be valid.  

 

A Usufruct cannot be cancelled unilaterally and like you mentioned. But the property can change hands during the terms of this agreement. For example in the invent of your wife's death, if she holds the Land Title. But since this agreement was written prior to her death, then it still holds true and is still valid. In Contract Law, the consideration they take into account is the conditions on the date this Contract was written and signed, and not what happens 10 years after. Unless of course both partied wish to void the Contract.

 

If the Op has an agreement to sell this property and split the proceeds with his x-wife, then he should get this on legal paper. This saves on the possibility of one person not being fully understanding the agreement, or someone changing there mind later.  To make this valid then a time line will also have to be given. Say one year from the date of signing this agreement that the property must be sold by them and proceeds split, otherwise the person in best position may not want to sell the said property. Just say he tried and then keep the property for himself.

Ah yes the joys and tribulations of having to much money. Before all the marriage and building a house schemes break ground dig back into your memories of prior experiences I am sure you can come up with a similar experience and gauge how that worked out for you. If it was OK then you would obviously not be in your present position.  

[elgordo38]

4 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Nonsense! She signed the Marriage Contract as well. Are you trying to tell us now that in a years time she can change her mind on that to?

Do you feel one leg getting longer??

[GOLDBUGGY]

8 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

So any usufruct written during a marriage in the land deed is rendered void through a divorce?

 

That is more than a bit of a bummer.

 

There are any number of guys who have "secured" land in this way. 

Consider for a moment that instead of a Usufruct signed during the marriage he was able to buy this house and own it. Do you think this makes a pinch of Coo Poo difference when it comes to Divorce Time?

 

Well I have been down that road twice before and I am here to tell you it makes no difference at all. The Matrimonial Assets are split 50/50 no matter who owns it. This is the Divorce Law on many countries. You get half the house and she gets the other half. Same! Same! 

[chilli42]

17 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

There is a law in Thailand that a wife can "change their mind" within one year of signing a document. 

I assume this was intended as humor.

[12DrinkMore]

2 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Consider for a moment that instead of a Usufruct signed during the marriage he was able to buy this house and own it. Do you think this makes a pinch of Coo Poo difference when it comes to Divorce Time?

 

Well I have been down that road twice before and I am here to tell you it makes no difference at all. The Matrimonial Assets are split 50/50 no matter who owns it. This is the Divorce Law on many countries. You get half the house and she gets the other half. Same! Same! 

 

I get the 50/50 split.

 

However, it usually only applies to assets earned during the marriage. Stuff that was owned prior to the Big Day remains the property of the respective spouse. Which I believe is also the case in Thailand.

 

And in the UK for me it was more like 50/30/20 with 20% going to the legal profession, as my ex-wife (50%) went down the retribution path and strung out the whole thing for two years, treating her female solicitors like a social support service. A service they were quite happy to provide at some enormous hourly rate.

 

Still, it is always good to keep being reminded that we men in Thailand have few rights of posession.....

[GOLDBUGGY]

12 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

Ah yes the joys and tribulations of having to much money. Before all the marriage and building a house schemes break ground dig back into your memories of prior experiences I am sure you can come up with a similar experience and gauge how that worked out for you. If it was OK then you would obviously not be in your present position.  

Ah! Yes! The Risks and Dangers of getting Married. I am sure everyone here knows them all to well. It has gotten to the point that the younger generation don't even want to get married anymore. And who can blame them for that?

 

But No Man is an Island! We are not meant to live alone, although most of us have done this from time to time. But in all honesty not too many liked this way of life for too long either.

 

So the only solution is to make enough money where you can support 2 x-wives and a bunch of kids, but now be too poor for you new wife to want to leave you.

 

Works for me!

[12DrinkMore]

34 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

She does have to make room for the new love of her life to move in. She certainly does not want to mix the new with the old outgoing one. 

 

I dunno, some of these girls are quite adept at running a string of sponsors. They would make excellent project managers, being able to juggle resources on a timeline.

 

However, I don't think that moving Mr New into Mr Old's house is a strategy they would use. It would be more like,

 

"horney dear, I know a nice house owned by a relative going for a good price. If you buy it for us, I can wait for you there while you collect the big money that falls from the trees in Farangland".

Edited April 30, 2017 by 12DrinkMore

[12DrinkMore]

5 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

but now be too poor for you new wife to want to leave you.

 

You'll have to run that past me again.

 

[elgordo38]

1 minute ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

I dunno, some of these girls are quite adept at running a string of sponsors. They would make excellent project managers, being able to juggle resources are a timeline.

 

However, I don't think that moving Mr New into Mr Old's house is a strategy they would use. It would be more like,

 

"horney dear, I know a nice house owned by a relative going for a good price. If you buy it for us, I can wait for you there while you collect the big money that falls from the trees in Farangland".

While he is gone looking for said money she no doubt would know exactly where to go to cash in. Thanks for the reply made my brain move in another direction. Cranial stimulation at its best. 

[GOLDBUGGY]

5 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

I get the 50/50 split.

 

However, it usually only applies to assets earned during the marriage. Stuff that was owned prior to the Big Day remains the property of the respective spouse. Which I believe is also the case in Thailand.

 

And in the UK for me it was more like 50/30/20 with 20% going to the legal profession, as my ex-wife (50%) went down the retribution path and strung out the whole thing for two years, treating her female solicitors like a social support service. A service they were quite happy to provide at some enormous hourly rate.

 

Still, it is always good to keep being reminded that we men in Thailand have few rights of posession.....

Of course you are right about this split. Your 30% actually looks pretty good compared to myself and many other guys I know. Most guys I know left with a suitcase and $50 in their wallet after a lifetime of working and earning big money. Plus of course kids to support later as well, and in some case for many years to come.

 

From a Man's point of view, "Marriage Sucks"! But we really don't have many choices left out there to chose from. If I had it all over to do again, and was younger, I never would have gotten married at all in the first place. But then I said that after my first Divorce, and again after my second. So who knows for sure? 

[realviking48]

When divorcing in Thailand.. How many farang have got the half of the price of the house-sell?

I heard few stories about the wife put 10 M. price on the house, but it is worth 2 M. baht.

That way she makes sure the house will never be sold.. she can live in the house forever.

If the farang  no wants to move out himself... she has ways to get him out by force..

[funandsuninbangkok]

17 hours ago, funandsuninbangkok said:

There is a law in Thailand that a wife can "change their mind" within one year of signing a document. 

 

True

 

read down to agreements between hum and and wife

 

http://www.bia.co.th/033.html

[louse1953]

20 hours ago, JJJIIIMMM said:

 

yes, the usufruct was granted after we got married. 

 

Is it easy for her to do, and can be done quickly, or is it up to each individual land department?

You wasted your time getting the  usufract.She can not sign away her rights on divorce.This is for single people,mainly  men.

[louse1953]

2 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Well, not really.

 

If the Usufruct was written with you future wife prior to the marriage then this would indeed be considered the wife's property before marriage. However, a Divorce only cancels contracts made between husband and wife. Since the Usufruct was written prior to this time, then this Usufruct would also still be valid.  

 

A Usufruct cannot be cancelled unilaterally and like you mentioned. But the property can change hands during the terms of this agreement. For example in the invent of your wife's death, if she holds the Land Title. But since this agreement was written prior to her death, then it still holds true and is still valid. In Contract Law, the consideration they take into account is the conditions on the date this Contract was written and signed, and not what happens 10 years after. Unless of course both partied wish to void the Contract.

 

If the Op has an agreement to sell this property and split the proceeds with his x-wife, then he should get this on legal paper. This saves on the possibility of one person not being fully understanding the agreement, or someone changing there mind later.  To make this valid then a time line will also have to be given. Say one year from the date of signing this agreement that the property must be sold by them and proceeds split, otherwise the person in best position may not want to sell the said property. Just say he tried and then keep the property for himself.

The usufruct was signed after marriage,so useless.

[louse1953]

2 hours ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

So any usufruct written during a marriage in the land deed is rendered void through a divorce?

 

That is more than a bit of a bummer.

 

There are any number of guys who have "secured" land in this way. 

This is one of the resons i am not married,i live in sin.The woman i am with trusts me.

[louse1953]

1 hour ago, realviking48 said:

When divorcing in Thailand.. How many farang have got the half of the price of the house-sell?

I heard few stories about the wife put 10 M. price on the house, but it is worth 2 M. baht.

That way she makes sure the house will never be sold.. she can live in the house forever.

If the farang  no wants to move out himself... she has ways to get him out by force..

I have already told my long term gf this.She rekons she is too lazy to train another farang,so stuck with me.