Exclusive: Indonesia's reputation as a model of moderate Islam intact - president

[snoop1130]

Exclusive: Indonesia's reputation as a model of moderate Islam intact - president

By John Chalmers and Eveline Danubrata

 

Indonesia's President Joko Widodo gestures during an interview with Reuters in Jakarta, Indonesia, July 3, 2017. REUTERS/Beawiharta

 

JAKARTA (Reuters) - Indonesia's president said on Monday his country remains a model of moderate Islam, countering critics who point to mass rallies by radical Muslim and the jailing of a Christian politician for blasphemy as evidence its reputation is crumbling.

 

"Pluralism has always been a part of Indonesia's DNA," Joko Widodo told Reuters in an interview at the presidential palace in Jakarta. "Despite many challenges, Islam in Indonesia has always been a force for moderation."

 

Indonesia's state ideology includes national unity, social justice and democracy alongside belief in God, and enshrines religious diversity in a secular system of government.

 

Hardline Islamist groups were banned under the authoritarian regime of President Suharto, which ended in 1998, but they have gained ground in recent years, emerging from the fringes of society in the world's biggest Muslim-majority country.

 

Religious and political tensions spiralled at the end of last year when Islamists led protests by hundreds of thousands in Jakarta against the capital's former governor, an ethnic-Chinese Christian who was charged with insulting the Koran.

 

Governor Basuki Tjahaja Purnama, an ally of President Widodo, lost his bid for re-election to a Muslim rival in April after months of agitation against him by a radical group, the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI).

 

In May he was sentenced to two years in jail for blasphemy.

 

Widodo said Indonesia was "still a model" of pluralism and noted comments on Saturday by former U.S. President Barack Obama - on a personal visit to the country where he spent some of his childhood - that its history of tolerance must be preserved.

 

"It is very important here in Indonesia, the United States, Europe, everywhere, to fight against the politics of 'us and them'," Obama told a conference in Jakarta.

 

CAREFUL LINE ON HOMOSEXUALITY

 

The targets of hardline Islamic groups have included the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community, many of whom have been driven underground by police raids.

 

With the exception of the ultra-conservative Aceh province, where Islamic law is enforced and two men were publicly flogged last month for gay sex, homosexuality is legal in Indonesia.

 

But Widodo's own defence minister has branded homosexuality a national security threat and last week a leader of Indonesia's second-largest Muslim group called for a boycott of Starbucks because of the international coffee chain's pro-gay stand.

 

The president trod a careful line on the question of LGBT rights, saying that "Indonesia remains a tolerant nation" whose constitution guarantees that everyone's rights are respected and protected.

 

But he added: "We are the largest majority Muslim country so Indonesia has its own religious norms, unique values and also cultures that must be respected."

 

ISIS HAS NO PLACE IN INDONESIA

 

The muscle-flexing of hardline groups has fed fears that Indonesia will become fertile ground for Islamist militants.

 

The attempt in May by a small army of Islamic State-allied fighters to overrun a city in the southern Philippines has been widely seen as a bid by the ultra-radical group, on a backfoot in Syria and Iraq, to establish a stronghold in Southeast Asia.

 

Philippines officials have said there were Indonesians and Malaysians among the fighters who attacked Marawi City, where a battle with government troops has ground on for six weeks.

 

"ISIS has no place in Indonesia," Widodo said, using a popular acronym for Islamic State.

 

He noted that Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines had agreed to joint maritime patrols to prevent militants moving across their islands, and said he discussed cooperation on a phone call with Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte last week.

 

"Our security and intelligence agencies continue to work hard to combat this threat. We are also continuing to promote the values of moderate Islam and when I talked with President Duterte last week I said that 'your problem is my problem'.

 

(Reporting by John Chalmers and Eveline Danubrata; Editing by Bill Tarrant)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-7-3

[hansnl]

Ahhhhhh

Reuters.

There is no moderate islam.

There is just islam, the so-called "religion of peace".

[wombat]

the people of West Papua would disagree that  Indonesia's reputation as a model of moderate Islam is intact

Edited July 3, 2017 by wombat

[anon4546543]

When the former mayor of Jakarta was jailed because he is said to have stated that Islam was tolerant and violence had no part in Indonesian politics according to the Koran - he was jailed for blasphemy.

 Indonesia will be the next radical state, it will be supported by hand washers like Widodo. The Islamic Defenders Front and others control Indonesia now.  It used to be a moderate Sunni state, now it is up for grabs. Just don't do business with them or even entertain the idea that you would like to visit. If you do, at your peril.

[phantomfiddler]

Bulls**t ! In a country where someone is jailed for 2 years just because he is a Christian, and Christian churches are regularly torched with the congregation still inside, for anyone to say Indonesia is moderate muslim is a joke. Just because David Beckham just enjoyed a visit is no reason to make political use of it. I worked in Indonesia for 15 years, and can possibly see through this nonsense more than most.

[anon4546543]

6 hours ago, wombat said:

the people of West Papua would disagree that  Indonesia's reputation as a model of moderate Islam is intact

West Irian is the wholesale sellout by the US, Australia and Holland. These three countries all on their own decided the fate of West Papuans after Holland left Indonesia.  The fact that Papua has no customs, ethnicity, Islam ideology, or in fact any similarities with Indonesia was totally overlooked and only because Indonesia promised to be anti communist. (The US loved that aspect) That was enough for US and Aust and Nederlands to scrap the rights of a whole nation of Papuans and put them under control of Islam and the oh so tolerant notions of Islam extremism.

Australia trains the Indo special forces that inflict murder on any dissent by Papuans. It is one of the worst cases of the US being the "sheriff" of the world after WW11. Australia as per usual stuck its head up uncle sams butt, and it still remains there. Meanwhile a whole country of Papuans suffer under the lovely Islamic state that rules them mercilessly. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There was an article in the news just the other day on how nearly 150 7-11 stores in Indonesia, all those owned by the main franchisor there where they are not the main mini-mart, had closed down because their parent company was in financial trouble. The article noted that part of the reason for the financial trouble was that the government there a couple years back apparently forbid mini-marts like 7-11 from selling alcoholic beverages -- not just during certain hours, but anytime.  Moderate Islam???  I don't think so.

 

[anon4546543]

19 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

There was an article in the news just the other day on how nearly 150 7-11 stores in Indonesia, all those owned by the main franchisor there where they are not the main mini-mart, had closed down because their parent company was in financial trouble. The article noted that part of the reason for the financial trouble was that the government there a couple years back apparently forbid mini-marts like 7-11 from selling alcoholic beverages -- not just during certain hours, but anytime.  Moderate Islam???  I don't think so.

 

Quote me one moderate Islam country.

[Flustered]

4 minutes ago, spiderorchid said:

Quote me one moderate Islam country.

United Kingdom.

[anon4546543]

5 minutes ago, Flustered said:

United Kingdom.

Good to see you again Flustered and good to see some good pommy humour.

 

[Flustered]

It would be funny if it was not serious.

[simple1]

5 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

When the former mayor of Jakarta was jailed because he is said to have stated that Islam was tolerant and violence had no part in Indonesian politics according to the Koran - he was jailed for blasphemy.

It's correct Islamist hardliners used an accusation of blasphemy as a political weapon, though some Indonesian Islamic scholars resisted and claimed  the words Ahok said were not blasphemy (example below). To quote Ahok...

“In your inner hearts, ladies and gentlemen, you may feel you cannot vote for me, because [you have been] lied to by the use of Surah al-Maidah, Verse 51. […] So, if you cannot vote for me because you are afraid of being condemned to hell, you do not need to feel uneasy, because you are being fooled. It is alright.”

 

Translation of the referenced verse....

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

 

Example of support for Ahok by Islamic scholar...

Rahayu said, Ahok meant the verse had been used by some people to lie. “The Quran can’t lie, but people can use anything to lie,” she said. (ebf)

Edited July 3, 2017 by simple1

[simple1]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

There was an article in the news just the other day on how nearly 150 7-11 stores in Indonesia, all those owned by the main franchisor there where they are not the main mini-mart, had closed down because their parent company was in financial trouble. The article noted that part of the reason for the financial trouble was that the government there a couple years back apparently forbid mini-marts like 7-11 from selling alcoholic beverages -- not just during certain hours, but anytime.  Moderate Islam???  I don't think so.

 

The ruling was later altered, but still impacted 7-Eleven revenue. As of 12/2016, alcohol sales represented 10% of 7-Eleven revenue.

 

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/12/22/more-7-eleven-stores-close-down-amid-alcohol-ban-high-operating-expenses.html

 

There is an ongoing push by Islamists to ban alcohol, but at this stage they only hold a third of parliamentary seats, so currently unlikely, plus of course many Muslims drink alcohol, as they do in other countries. More detail...

 

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/01/economist-explains-5

 

 

[Kiwiken]

Indonesia and Malyasia will radicalize and then Australia will have a major problem on their borders. I wonder if young Australians have the stomach for another Kokoda.

The threat is real you just need to take your rose tinted glasses off and look.

The Phillipines and Buddhist Asia plus the communist states are also threatened.

The USA and Australia make enemies of their neighbours, who are their friends for short time political gains at home.

While the real threat grows globally.

Russia is not the problem, China is not the problem for we all suffer the same threat. Put petty territorial and ideological differences to the side and confront the truth before little by little we disappear

[simple1]

2 hours ago, Kiwiken said:

Indonesia and Malyasia will radicalize and then Australia will have a major problem on their borders. I wonder if young Australians have the stomach for another Kokoda.

The threat is real you just need to take your rose tinted glasses off and look.

The Phillipines and Buddhist Asia plus the communist states are also threatened.

The USA and Australia make enemies of their neighbours, who are their friends for short time political gains at home.

While the real threat grows globally.

Russia is not the problem, China is not the problem for we all suffer the same threat. Put petty territorial and ideological differences to the side and confront the truth before little by little we disappear

Paul Dibbs views on the potential threat from Indonesia, though others argue the greater overall strategic threat is the diminishing of adherence to global rules of order by some leaders.

 

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/indonesia-future-threat-australia/

 

IMO Dobbs views are interesting as the Indonesian military is focused on internal threats, not external force projection. However, I sincerely doubt the US and others would stand aside should Indonesia target Australia.

Edited July 4, 2017 by simple1

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, simple1 said:

The ruling was later altered, but still impacted 7-Eleven revenue. As of 12/2016, alcohol sales represented 10% of 7-Eleven revenue.

 

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2016/12/22/more-7-eleven-stores-close-down-amid-alcohol-ban-high-operating-expenses.html

 

There is an ongoing push by Islamists to ban alcohol, but at this stage they only hold a third of parliamentary seats, so currently unlikely, plus of course many Muslims drink alcohol, as they do in other countries. More detail...

 

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/01/economist-explains-5

 

 

Re the first article, so it says they want from a national ban on alcohol sales at all minimarts (not just 7-11s) to one where local regions can decide? Unfortunately, it doesn't explain what actually happened at the local levels as a result of that change:

 

 

Quote

 

Convenience stores were previously prohibited from selling any kind of alcohol, including beer, as former trade minister Rachmat Gobel issued a regulation on the control of alcohol in April last year in a bid to “protect young generations from the dangers of alcohol”.

 

However, five months after that the ministry, under minister Thomas Trikasih Lembong, relaxed the policy and handed the rights to control alcohol production, distribution and sales to regional administrations, including the Jakarta administration.

 

 

Re the second article, that deals not just with a minimarts regulations, but with a national proposal to ban alcohol entirely and make it a crime. Very moderate, I would say...

 

Quote

Two Muslim parties in parliament, the National Development Party (PPP) and the Prosperous Justice Party (PKS), are proposing legislation that would criminalise the production, distribution and consumption of alcoholic drinks. Anyone caught drinking alcohol could face two years in prison, while those making it or selling it would be put away for ten years.

 

Here is one version of the more recent articles I saw just the other day on the 7-11 franchisee in Indonesia closing all their stores. It's interesting to note that apparently there were talks with CP All from Thailand to buy out the franchise, but that didn't succeed:

 

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/business/7-eleven-indonesia-to-close-all-domestic-outlets-over-limited-8996714

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Like with the minimarts alcohol ban above, one of the problems with Indonesia and fundamentalist Islam is that at the national level, they appear to have given local regions the right to adopt and enforce their own restrictive laws, so areas like Aceh have effectively begun enforcing Shariah law in their jurisdictions.

 

Quote

 

When people hear of Aceh, what comes to mind is a puritan area where nothing fun ever happens.

Aceh began to adopt Islamic law in 2001 after a wave of decentralization allowed provinces in Indonesia to issue regional laws. The 2005 Helsinki Agreement that ended the decades-long insurgency in Aceh also strengthened the enforcement of the sharia, but it was not until 2014 that Aceh fully embraced the Qanun Jinayat.

 

Quote

The beaches of Aceh are often overshadowed by those of Bali and Lombok, which also means they are less crowded and cleaner. The sharia-compliant beaches are closed at 6 p.m. and it is forbidden people who are not muhrim (lawful spouses or close relatives) to swim together.

 

http://www.thejakartapost.com/travel/2017/06/25/why-you-should-consider-aceh-for-your-next-trip.html

 

And then there's stuff like this:
 

Quote

 

A leader of Indonesia's second-largest Muslim organisation has called for a boycott of Starbucks, saying that the international coffee chain's pro-gay stand risks ruining the "religious and cultured" core of the Southeast Asian nation.

With the exception of the ultra-conservative Aceh province, homosexuality is legal in Indonesia. But police raids on the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community have risen in the world's most populous Muslim country.

Anwar Abbas of Muhammadiyah, an organisation that has around 30 million members, said the government should revoke Starbucks' operating licence as the company's support for the LGBT community is "not in line" with the nation's ideology.

 

 

 

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-muslim-leader-urges-indonesians-to-boycott-starbucks-over-lgbt-stand-2489387

 

And this:

 

Quote

 

Court in Indonesia sentences gay men to 85 cane strokes

An Islamic court in the conservative Indonesian province of Aceh has sentenced two gay men to a public caning. The ruling, a first for the province, was delivered on International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia.

Two Indonesian men were sentenced by an Islamic Shariah court on Wednesday to receive 85 strokes each in a public caning for having sex with each other.

The lead judge, Khairil Jamal, said the 20- and 23-year-old men were "legally and convincingly proven to have committed gay sex."

Wednesday's verdict was the first time the punishment had been handed down since Aceh province since a local law banning gay sex came into force in 2015. Anyone caught engaging in consensual gay sex could receive up to 100 lashes, 100 months in jail or a fine of 1,000 grams of gold.

 

http://www.dw.com/en/court-in-indonesia-sentences-gay-men-to-85-cane-strokes/a-38871552

Edited July 4, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[jak2002003]

Hmmm... this county is openly leaning more and more to conservatism and Sharia law. 

 

The public lashings for same sex acts are moderate?

Banning women from straddling motorbikes when riding behind a man,

the proposal to veil all women.. even non Muslims,

the burning down and closure or churches and other religions buildings,

restrictions on hotels, bars,

over 150 laws restricting minorities rights,

 

Indonesia was once a country of great diversity, but now Islam and Muslims are taking over. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Indonesia was once a country of great diversity, but now Islam and Muslims are taking over. 

 

As like with Christian fundamentalists in western countries.......  It's one thing if THEY (the fundamentalist Muslims or Christians) want to follow and live by their own beliefs and codes. But for them, that's never enough.

 

Rather, they both actively try to obtain national and local laws and policies that require EVERYONE ELSE to likewise follow their fundamentalist beliefs -- even those who are obviously not fundamentalists.  Fundamentalism is inherently antithetical to moderation and tolerance.

 

[i claudius]

Hmmm... this county is openly leaning more and more to conservatism and Sharia law. 
 
The public lashings for same sex acts are moderate?
Banning women from straddling motorbikes when riding behind a man,
the proposal to veil all women.. even non Muslims,
the burning down and closure or churches and other religions buildings,
restrictions on hotels, bars,
over 150 laws restricting minorities rights,
 
Indonesia was once a country of great diversity, but now Islam and Muslims are taking over. 

As they will in the West if allowed

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[simple1]

1 hour ago, jak2002003 said:

Hmmm... this county is openly leaning more and more to conservatism and Sharia law. 

 

The public lashings for same sex acts are moderate?

Banning women from straddling motorbikes when riding behind a man,

the proposal to veil all women.. even non Muslims,

the burning down and closure or churches and other religions buildings,

restrictions on hotels, bars,

over 150 laws restricting minorities rights,

 

Indonesia was once a country of great diversity, but now Islam and Muslims are taking over. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand the primary problems you talk to are with Aceh. Aceh was granted a degree of autonomy to bring an end to conflict in the province, during which thousands were killed by the Indonesian military as well as local Christians and Muslims busily murdering each other. A timeline of the major events below.

 

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/3929

 

Indonesia is a G20 member country and currently forecast to be the tenth largest economy worldwide by 2025. As with other Muslim, so called moderate, majority countries it's down to the politicians and security forces to endeavour to keep the Islamists under control.  One hopes that Indonesia doesn't fall into a quagmire of death and destruction visited upon the military and civilians as has happened in Pakistan due to ul Huq's strategic folly with the hardliners in the late 1970s.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by simple1

[ilostmypassword]

University of terror: The Jihadi school on Australia’s doorstep funded by Donald Trump’s friend Saudi Arabia

 

DONALD Trump’s best friend in the Middle East — Saudi Arabia — is promoting radical Islam via a university right on Australia’s doorstep.

The Saudi Arabia-funded Institute for the Study of Islam and Arabic in Jakarta has produced some of Indonesia’s terrorist leaders.

The hard line Islam taught at LIPIA approves of death for homosexual people and blasphemers, stoning for adulterers and the amputation of hands for thieves, reports Voice of America.

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/university-of-terror-the-jihadi-school-on-australias-doorstep-funded-by-donald-trumps-friend-saudi-arabia/news-story/267fcd2904925182cc3092833efff0f2

 

Indonesia’s Moderate Islam is Slowly Crumbling 

"Beyond these internal issues, Saudi Arabia has also invested billions of dollars since 1980 to spread puritanical Salafi Islam in Indonesia. Despite its explicitly anti-Wahhabi origins, NU has largely neglected to address the effects of this program, Assyaunakie said. “Plus, Salafi ideas are entering the organization itself, which has become steadily more conservative since the day Wahid left.”

 foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/14/indonesias-moderate-islam-is-slowly-crumbling/

 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[simple1]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Re the second article, that deals not just with a minimarts regulations, but with a national proposal to ban alcohol entirely and make it a crime. Very moderate, I would say...

 

Naturally the hardliners will demand this and that, but at this stage have not succeeded with a national alcohol ban.

 

Thoughts on why currently efforts to ban nationally will not be realised.

 

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2017/01/economist-explains-5

 

I remember trying Muslim home brew alcohol in Indo, vile stuff, similar to Lao Khao.

[Dumbastheycome]

19 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

There was an article in the news just the other day on how nearly 150 7-11 stores in Indonesia, all those owned by the main franchisor there where they are not the main mini-mart, had closed down because their parent company was in financial trouble. The article noted that part of the reason for the financial trouble was that the government there a couple years back apparently forbid mini-marts like 7-11 from selling alcoholic beverages -- not just during certain hours, but anytime.  Moderate Islam???  I don't think so.

 

Ermmmm.... I  have   never  ever seen a  single  7/11  in  Indo  over the  last   20  years.  There  are  many  varieties  of  similar. 

[anon4546543]

19 hours ago, simple1 said:

It's correct Islamist hardliners used an accusation of blasphemy as a political weapon, though some Indonesian Islamic scholars resisted and claimed  the words Ahok said were not blasphemy (example below). To quote Ahok...

“In your inner hearts, ladies and gentlemen, you may feel you cannot vote for me, because [you have been] lied to by the use of Surah al-Maidah, Verse 51. […] So, if you cannot vote for me because you are afraid of being condemned to hell, you do not need to feel uneasy, because you are being fooled. It is alright.”

 

Translation of the referenced verse....

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

 

Example of support for Ahok by Islamic scholar...

Rahayu said, Ahok meant the verse had been used by some people to lie. “The Quran can’t lie, but people can use anything to lie,” she said. (ebf)

Regardless, the mayor was put on trial in "moderate" Indonesia and he was was jailed by the "moderate" court of Indonesia for blasphemy.

Indonesia by this crass extremist version of justice and extreme interpretation of Islam shows just where it stands now. It kowtows to extremist Islam.

 A few Islamic scholars may be alarmed. But the extremists are not listening to scholars. Nor is the justice system and courts in Indonesia.

Indonesia is no longer a moderate Sunni country. The amount of its citizens that went to fight for IS and have since returned makes this a most dangerous nation to visit. 

 

[Flustered]

What the world must wake up to is that this is not a fringe minority practising an extreme version of Islam, this is the real world. Islam is an extreme religion and spreading.

[anon4546543]

17 hours ago, simple1 said:

Paul Dibbs views on the potential threat from Indonesia, though others argue the greater overall strategic threat is the diminishing of adherence to global rules of order by some leaders.

 

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/indonesia-future-threat-australia/

 

IMO Dobbs views are interesting as the Indonesian military is focused on internal threats, not external force projection. However, I sincerely doubt the US and others would stand aside should Indonesia target Australia.

I was in the Aust army in the 70's a whole generation ago. At that time I clearly remember hearing the US ambassador state that under the ANZUS treaty, there was never a requirement for the US to ever defend Australia or New Zealand should it have any troubles with our close neighbours. Australia as a middle country needs to develop its own diplomacy for its own region.  I believe this is true. There is no certainty in the ANZUS treaty to do anything more than "consult".

But still Australia and to a lesser extent NZ, kowtow to all US overseas crusades, foreign policy stupidity and futile economic sanctions to some countries.   Instead Aust and NZ need to re open dialogue with Indonesia, at the same time cut military ties and start preparing for the extremism to flow out of Indon.

[simple1]

3 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

Regardless, the mayor was put on trial in "moderate" Indonesia and he was was jailed by the "moderate" court of Indonesia for blasphemy.

Indonesia by this crass extremist version of justice and extreme interpretation of Islam shows just where it stands now. It kowtows to extremist Islam.

 A few Islamic scholars may be alarmed. But the extremists are not listening to scholars. Nor is the justice system and courts in Indonesia.

Indonesia is no longer a moderate Sunni country. The amount of its citizens that went to fight for IS and have since returned makes this a most dangerous nation to visit. 

 

When one takes into account the number of foreign fighters joining ISIS from places such as France, UK, Russia or Tunisia reported numbers from Indonesia are relatively small in comparison to the population size, though of course do represent a threat. Each to their own, but I would have no qualms visiting Indonesia based upon likelihood of death / injury from an Islamist terror attack. 

 

Regards the jail sentence, the prosecutors actually asked for a two year probationary sentence, could have asked for a maximum of five years jail, but seems the judges were influenced by a political minority party hardliner leader to impose a two year jail sentence. As I said in another post in this topic one  hopes overall Indo politicians do not give in to the elected Muslim political hardliners, who at this stage are still very much the minority in government.

Edited July 4, 2017 by simple1

[anon4546543]

2 minutes ago, simple1 said:

When one takes into account the number of foreign fighters joining ISIS from places such as France, UK, Russia or Tunisia reported numbers from Indonesia are relatively small in comparison to the population size, though of course do represent a threat. Each to their own, but I would have no qualms visiting Indonesia based upon likelihood of death / injury from an Islamist terror attack. 

 

Regards the jail sentence, the prosecutors actually asked for a two year probationary sentence, could have asked for a maximum of five years jail, but seems the judges were influenced by a political minority party hardliner leader to impose a two year jail sentence. As I said in another post in this topic one  hopes overall Indo politicians do not give in to the elected Muslim political hardliners, who at this stage are still very much the minority in government.

I do not understand your post. "You hope Indo politicians do not give in to hardliners"

 They already have!

 You need to stop excusing every extremist act by Islamist extremists and Islamist countries.

If you read my posts, you will find that I abhor US crusades. I do not seek to excuse them.

I do not seek to excuse my own governments culpability in allowing Muslims to control West Papua.

But you always kowtow to everything that is wrong with the Muslim so called faith.

If you do not condemn them, you are in fact in support of them. Kowtow

 

[simple1]

3 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

I was in the Aust army in the 70's a whole generation ago. At that time I clearly remember hearing the US ambassador state that under the ANZUS treaty, there was never a requirement for the US to ever defend Australia or New Zealand should it have any troubles with our close neighbours. Australia as a middle country needs to develop its own diplomacy for its own region.  I believe this is true. There is no certainty in the ANZUS treaty to do anything more than "consult".

But still Australia and to a lesser extent NZ, kowtow to all US overseas crusades, foreign policy stupidity and futile economic sanctions to some countries.   Instead Aust and NZ need to re open dialogue with Indonesia, at the same time cut military ties and start preparing for the extremism to flow out of Indon.

On the diplomatic front with Indonesia seems you need to update your knowledge. Strategic planners disagree with you, counter productive to cut military ties.