I Think Rewiring Needed But Not Sure Exactly What

[grs90]

Hi

 

I'm hoping someone can advise on the extent of the work I need to get done to resolve some problems with my house wiring.  

 

Having spoken to a couple of local "electricians" (aka "man can do electric" from my wife), and getting told B3,000 by one and B40,000 by the other I'm not sure how big a problem I have got.  Also, having watched a different one a couple of months ago instal an external light by baring an existing couple of wires with a penknife and simply selotaping the new wires on to the bare patches I want to try and get as clear an idea as possible of the correct things to do so that when I get someone to do the work I can check he is dong what is needed.

 

My problem initially is that one of the circuit breakers in my main box keeps tripping.  Even with my lack of knowledge it was evident that the problem occurred when too many appliances were on turned on at the same time.  So, I had a go at switching everything off in the main box and then trying to see what was live when I turned different switches back on again.  The results were interesting and (possibly?) concerning.

 

The circuit breaker box itself has 5 switches.  See picture below.  From right to left: 

1. there is a main switch which I assume should turn everything in the house on/off but I am not sure if this should just provide power to the 4 switches to the left of it or whether house circuits can be wired directly in to this switch.

2. next is a what seems to be a C10 circuit breaker. 

3. next is another C10 circuit breaker.

4. next is a C20 circuit breaker.

5. finally another C20.

 

So, from my testing:

0.  With all 5 switches off nothing worked except the shower heater.  So I assume the wiring for this bypasses the box entirely.  However the shower circuit does have its own separate switch which is pic 2 below.  Not sure what the switch does other than on/off so don't know how much of an issue it is if this circuit is not on the main box.

 

1. With just the main switch with number 1 in the box turned on, the only things that are powered (apart from the shower as my test results are cumulative) are the upstairs socket outlets.  3 double outlets in total with the most we ever use at the same time being a TV, a digibox, a fan and a table lamp.  Sometimes a vacuum cleaner may be used.      

 

2. When I turn on the first C10 circuit the two upstairs bedroom lights come on as well.

 

3.  When I turn on the second C10 circuit everything else in the house except the two aircon units becomes live.  Unsurprisingly this is the circuit that keeps tripping.  It powers all the other lights (about 10) and all the downstairs sockets.  The fridge/freezer and water pump are permanently plugged in plus other things such as TV, computer/phone chargers, fans, microwave, kettle, tabletop oven, iron etc used as needed.  It is the addition of the oven or kettle to the load of an evening, when much else is on as well, which is the main cause of the tripping so we have to turn other things off if we want to use them.

 

4 & 5.  Each of these C20 circuits powers a single aircon unit.  That seems sensible although I am a bit scared that the wire for the downstairs unit comes out of the house, upheaval exterior wall and back in upstairs next to the box.  It is just a normal length of what I think is interior cable but is exposed to the rain and the sun.

 

It seems to be that, at the very least, I need to get some of the load currently on the second C10 switch moved off it.  Do I just need to select some sockets and get them rewired in to the first C20 circuit?  Or is a much wider range of work needed?  Obviously I want to minimise the cost but at the same time I do want things to be safe.

 

Any advice and assistance would be much appreciated.

 

Cheers 

 

 

[BEVUP]

Well your 2nd C10 is over loaded as you would know

Not sure what ! I would say the whole house

I also see that they wired the lights into the power outlet circuits in the roof no doubt ( Lazy unqualified sparky )

C10 should be light circuits 

C16 for power out lets 

C20 Aircons & one for the Water heater ( looks like the so called sparky tapped into the mains prior to box since it was easier )

* I bet you TV blinks when someone turns a fluro on

 

My 4 yr old Moo Baan house is wired from every available Live wire in the roof to anything & everything 

 

I would not even worry about the 3000 bht guy as he would no doubt grab a few of the outlet wires & tack them into the aircons since the wire looks bigger in the roof

 

I would say 40,000 may be a pro job & would asks for pictures of his work (they always have them on their phones )

& will use conduit & boxes everywhere 

 

[bankruatsteve]

What size wire was used on the downstairs C10 circuit?  I will be stamped on the cable and should be either 1.5 mm2 or 2.5 mm2.

[Crossy]

Task number one is to replace the MCB for the water heater with an RCBO, you can get ones that fit in the same box, about 500 Baht. It will have a "Test" button.

 

That will give you earth leakage (death) protection for your shower. Whilst you're at it check if the shower heater has an earth (it won't have) and install a rod (1.5m or longer) to ground the heater.

 

[Crossy]

38 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Task number one is to replace the MCB for the water heater with an RCBO, you can get ones that fit in the same box, about 500 Baht. It will have a "Test" button.

Looks like this:-

 

[grs90]

3 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

What size wire was used on the downstairs C10 circuit?  I will be stamped on the cable and should be either 1.5 mm2 or 2.5 mm2.

Thanks.  Having had a hunt around the only cable that seems to be marked is one that goes to the socket the water pump plugs in to. This says 2*2.5mm and is quite a chunky affair - about 1.2cm thick.  The other cables are a mix of ones about 0.6cm thick and 0.8cm thick but its hard to tell which goes where.    

 

49 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Task number one is to replace the MCB for the water heater with an RCBO, you can get ones that fit in the same box, about 500 Baht. It will have a "Test" button.

 

That will give you earth leakage (death) protection for your shower. Whilst you're at it check if the shower heater has an earth (it won't have) and install a rod (1.5m or longer) to ground the heater.

 

Thanks.  Ok will hunt around for a RCBO like the one of the in your picture.  Having said that I am somewhat reluctant to open the existing box up to fit it given there is apparently no way to isolate the box.  

 

When I was in the UK a while ago the local Distribution Business there fitted an isolator switch between the meter and the consumer unit so that I could get an electrician to replace the consumer unit without needing the DB in to de-energise and then re-energise the service.  I guess that sort of job would be done by a local "electrician" here?  If I can get done I would also get them to swap the MCB/RCBO and check for earthing.

 

Thanks for the help so far.  

 

 

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, grs90 said:

I guess that sort of job would be done by a local "electrician" here?  If I can get done I would also get them to swap the MCB/RCBO and check for earthing.

A local man is a good idea to replace the breaker with one you have sourced, but getting him to check earthing ...

 

"Thai electric not same farang electric, no need ground".

 

[impulse]

It would probably be helpful if you can (safely) remover the cover plate on the breaker panel and take some good photos showing the wires.

 

Having said that, and by personal experience in China, you may want to throw a volt meter on the panel box itself to make sure the steel box isn't live before you remove the 1-4 screws and lift the cover off.

 

It's not unusual (in China anyway) to find a rat's nest inside a breaker panel with multiple wires of various sizes and types connected to breakers more as an after thought than a properly designed system.  That could give a good sparkie a better idea of what you're up against.  (Disclaimer:  I'm not a household E- guy- I deal in the paper side of oilfield systems- not the nuts and bolts and pulling wires side)

 

[bankruatsteve]

13 hours ago, grs90 said:

Thanks.  Having had a hunt around the only cable that seems to be marked is one that goes to the socket the water pump plugs in to. This says 2*2.5mm and is quite a chunky affair - about 1.2cm thick.  The other cables are a mix of ones about 0.6cm thick and 0.8cm thick but its hard to tell which goes where.    

 

They should all be marked but if all the wires are 2.5mm2 then you can just change that C10 breaker to a C20 and most likely resolve your tripping issue.  Be sure to purchase the same kind of breaker and you should then be able to get your local spark to change it for the cost of a beer as it's only a 2 minute job.

 

I don't see where anybody suggested to replace your main breaker with RCBO - but should do that too.

 

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, bankruatsteve said:

I don't see where anybody suggested to replace your main breaker with RCBO - but should do that too.

Indeed,  but I think he's going to have difficulty finding a unit to fit and there's no spare ways. Solution is going to be an external Safe-T-Cut box or replace the relevant MCBs with single width RCBOs.

 

Piccies of the box with the lid off would be useful.

[Stuart21]

Ask the local sparks to list what they would do - translate (if poss) then post here -

 

 no point just asking a price

P.S. with ELCB!

 

 'Don't be vague, ask for Haig'

Edited August 21, 2017 by Stuart21

[bberrythailand]

A real good REAL electrician takes 1000 thb / day for hard work.

 

 

[grs90]

Thanks very much to those of you who have taken the time for the earlier and further replies.  I'm now away from home for a few days so can't provide any further pics at the moment I'm afraid.

 

However, I found out a few more things about the wiring last night and this morning having poked my head up in to the loft space, looked around outside, attempted to track wires from the circuit breaker box to their destinations and unscrewed some sockets and light switches.

 

Firstly, much to my surprise, the show unit does seem to be earthed.  At least there is a wire coming out of the wall behind the shower unit and attaching to a piece of metal sticking out of the concrete base of the house.  No idea how long the metal is as it can't be moved.  Apparently the guy who fitted it is the areas top man for electric as he used to work for the local electric company.  Probably why he has no problem with bypassing the consumer unit!!

 

However, I can see no sign at all of a single other earth wire.  Having said that I have not checked every socket.

 

Looking at the wires coming out of the box and going around the box, most seem to start off as 2.5mm and stay that way until they reach a socket. At various places though, 1.5mm wires are attached to them, generally with a bit of gaffer tape, and go off elsewhere, either to lights or other sockets.  In many cases a circuit starts as 2.5mm, changes to 1,5mm and then another bit of 2.5mm is attached to it to continue on its merry way.

 

Also, by testing the sockets by trying to charge an old and now redundant laptop, all the sockets work but at many the laptop actually seems to vibrate when you touch it.

 

So, given all the uncertainty that my checks have given me and, to be honest, given my own lack of practical experience working on electrical circuits, (the most I have ever done is taken the odd spur off a de-energised ring main and swapped out a socket outlet and I am somewhat cack-handed when it comes to DIY) I have concluded that I am going to have to bite the bullet and get replaced all the bits I don't like.

 

Specifically, I think I will get a new Consumer Unit with integral RCBO and a decent number of circuit switches.  I'll then run ducting through the house to each room and put in appropriately sized cables, including earth cables - I am I think capable of that).  I'll probably also get a couple of additional RCBO switches dedicated to the cables going to the sockets & lights on the exterior of the house.  And I'll purchase and hammer in a new earth rod outside the house.

 

Most of the sockets and switches in the house seem fine so probably don't need replacing.

 

I'll then get someone in to connect it all up as per wiring diagrams.

 

I reckon I can get all that done for less than 20,000baht which is halfway between the two prices I was given.

 

Does that sound like a sound plan?

 

Cheers 

 

 

 

    

[wayned]

Where are you located?  There might be someone nearby that would be willing to come by and take a look.

[bankruatsteve]

Your plan sounds good, but maybe a bit superfluous.  If you don't have ground (as many Thai houses do not) to the receptacles, it's not catastrophic for your electric as most appliances these days are class-2.  Again, you can simply replace the C10 breaker with a C20 to probably resolve your tripping problem.  As Crossy stated, you could put a front end Safe-T-Cut and you are in the 2-3K baht range.  Adding ground to specific appliances is another option. But 20,000 baht seems above what you really need.  The sparks will try to screw you if you do a complete overhaul.  "Up to you."

Edited August 21, 2017 by bankruatsteve

[bankruatsteve]

1 hour ago, bberrythailand said:

A real good REAL electrician takes 1000 thb / day for hard work.

 

 

How do you define a "REAL" electrician in Thailand?  The issue with most construction projects here is that there is no certification for the skilled labor much less the "engineers".  The only certification I have seen is for the architects.

[Dene16]

44 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Again, you can simply replace the C10 breaker with a C20 to probably resolve your tripping problem

This is really bad advice

Different amperage MCB's are there for a reason

The circuit is probably overloaded but that is not guarenteed at the moment 

No electrician would ever advise what you have suggested as it has the potential to cause a fire, destroy appliances, and kill in the right circumstances

The op has implied that he will will change his distribution board which to my mind is the best solution as allows him to distribute the loads more evenly

As Crossy has mentioned an RCBO is a must but would be easily incorporated into a new board  with more spaces

As the op has mentioned there are already questionable area's of wiring of which putting a larger amperage MCB would make it even worse and more dangerous 

[bankruatsteve]

21 minutes ago, Dene16 said:

This is really bad advice

Different amperage MCB's are there for a reason

The circuit is probably overloaded but that is not guarenteed at the moment 

No electrician would ever advise what you have suggested as it has the potential to cause a fire, destroy appliances, and kill in the right circumstances

The op has implied that he will will change his distribution board which to my mind is the best solution as allows him to distribute the loads more evenly

As Crossy has mentioned an RCBO is a must but would be easily incorporated into a new board  with more spaces

As the op has mentioned there are already questionable area's of wiring of which putting a larger amperage MCB would make it even worse and more dangerous 

MCB protects the wire - nothing else.  The OP has already stated that most of the wire is 2.5mm2.  That is rated for a 20 amp breaker.  If there is 1.5mm2 runs to light circuits - no big deal.  Any "electrician" would have done that in the first place.  My suggestion will not cause anything you say as a potential.

[Dene16]

13 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

MCB protects the wire - nothing else.  The OP has already stated that most of the wire is 2.5mm2.  That is rated for a 20 amp breaker.  If there is 1.5mm2 runs to light circuits - no big deal.

Apologies regarding the use of the 20A breaker you are correct, acting before brain was in gear

However it is not certain if the 1.5mm2 lighting is also connected to the sockets 

Wiring here is so dangerous in many instances that i become a little zealous

And someone with limited knowledge such as the OP is playing around with wiring that may also be questionable.

He's probably learn't more than most so called Thai electrician's know already 

 

 

 

 

[grs90]

3 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

Your plan sounds good, but maybe a bit superfluous.  If you don't have ground (as many Thai houses do not) to the receptacles, it's not catastrophic for your electric as most appliances these days are class-2.  Again, you can simply replace the C10 breaker with a C20 to probably resolve your tripping problem.  As Crossy stated, you could put a front end Safe-T-Cut and you are in the 2-3K baht range.  Adding ground to specific appliances is another option. But 20,000 baht seems above what you really need.  The sparks will try to screw you if you do a complete overhaul.  "Up to you."

 

2 hours ago, Dene16 said:

This is really bad advice

Different amperage MCB's are there for a reason

The circuit is probably overloaded but that is not guarenteed at the moment 

No electrician would ever advise what you have suggested as it has the potential to cause a fire, destroy appliances, and kill in the right circumstances

The op has implied that he will will change his distribution board which to my mind is the best solution as allows him to distribute the loads more evenly

As Crossy has mentioned an RCBO is a must but would be easily incorporated into a new board  with more spaces

As the op has mentioned there are already questionable area's of wiring of which putting a larger amperage MCB would make it even worse and more dangerous 

Hi again, and thanks again for the further advice.

 

Simply swapping out the C10 for the C20 and adding the new safe t-cut does sound like a lot less work than I am thinking about and obviously way cheaper as well although, following a quick trip to homepro to price things up, I'm now thinking a total cost of around 10-15K including labour at approx 1000 a day.

 

Not wishing to ignore that advice but I think now that I have scared myself to such an extent by actually inspecting the wiring that I think replacing it all, while probably excessive, is the only way I can be confident I have got something which is relatively safe.  Lack of knowledge on my part I guess so, again, thanks Bankruasteve for the suggestion which s appreciated even if I don't follow it.  

 

Cheers

[Elkski]

The RCBO needs to be installed in that box  before the shower heater.  There may be a rule or not  about distance from the heater or in sight.

Depending on how the wires are tied together in the attic and outlet boxes and  switches you may be able to transfer off some of the high load things from that one overloaded circuit.    Unless you want to install ground wire everywhere I don't see why you want to replace all the wire. 

If you don't know if smaller wire is used in that 10 a circuit I wouldnot change it to a 20 a.   Where did OP say there is questionable wiring?   There are these little pens you can buy that light up when put  the tip anywhere near an electified wire.  You could use one of these in the attic to do more of a detailed schematic.   Perhaps just adding another main box with 1-2 new 10 a circuits is all you need.  1 for microwave and oven going to the table top oven. Add this and that RCBO nay be all you need?  In USA we have 120 v so 10 a @120v wouldn't be enough to wattage for a 1500 watt table oven or microwave.  But you have 220 v hopefully.  

If you could provide a complete wiring diagram then many here could give you perfect advice plus your electrician guy would be less likely to mess it up. Or overcharge you.       Any idea if  most or all the wall outlets go to the attic then back down again?  Rather than horizontal in the wall? .I assume it's brick or block walls?  With conduit? Or just ran down the wall?

It's really not a complicated thing once you have a drawing.   

Perhaps having the worker who can do electrical over to help you draw up the wiring.  He would ba able to disconnect some of the wires in the outlets near the microwave and table oven to see where this things are tied on and what trails after them.   It's not rocket science and not dangerous if you always turn off breakers and check for live In the box with one of those pens.   You never know if two circuits are tied together.   

Can you provide the wattage requirements written on all the things hooked into that circuit that trips.   

[wayned]

25 minutes ago, Elkski said:

Perhaps just adding another main box with 1-2 new 10 a circuits is all you need.

If he does anything other than replacing existing circuit breakers he will have to do some rewiring to isolate the lights/sockets that will be connected to the new circuit breakers.

 

Unlike in the US,where the sockets and lights for one area are normally  on the same circuit breaker and are "daisy chained" from one fixture to the next. Most houses in the US are frame construction, wood/metal load bearing walls with no poles, with an exterior veneer  of brick, siding, stucco, etc. and it is not uncommon to have the wires run horizontally through the walls to connect fixtures. I actually coiled wire in some wall that I knew would require additional sockets at a later date so that I could cut a hole where the fixture needed to be added and I could reach in and locate the wire as it's difficult to run new wiring in existing walls as there are required fire breaks installed between the studs, at least in woad frame construction houses.

 

Here, normally there is a radial from the circuit breaker to the area that it powers and each socket box has a drop down connected to that radial.  This should have a junction box where the wires are connected above ceiling but my house in Bangkok just has exposed twisted wires wit electrician's tape..  The light circuits are usually "daisy chained" to each fixture with the switch leg running down to the switch box, which usually requires smaller wire.

[Crossy]

Ok, some good advice here.

 

I would:-

• Trace out exactly where the smaller cable goes, max 15A breaker on 1.5mm² so that may be an option for the 10A units.
• Install a front end RCBO (Safe-T-Cut).
• If you can't re-route the shower then a baby RCBO for it as I detailed earlier.
• Individual earthing rods for Class-1 appliances (mainly in your kitchen and your desktop PC)

Cheap, and apart from the live working to install the RCBOs (get a man in) an easy DIY.

 

[Elkski]

I have seen some new construction in Thailand. I've seen how  they run conduit inside block walks or leave a groove In The red brick walls for conduit and then fill that in.  I have also seen wires on the interior of the walls.

   I guess I wasn't clear.  I meant perhaps separate the outlet for the microwave and the table top oven and put these two on their own breaker.  So it would obviously require 2 new runs up into the attic from the breaker box. 

[BEVUP]

12 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

How do you define a "REAL" electrician in Thailand?  The issue with most construction projects here is that there is no certification for the skilled labor much less the "engineers".  The only certification I have seen is for the architects.

 

there are real Sparky's here

I had one & he knew exactly what was required (to Auss standards that I know ) not like quite a few of you here that are suggesting some of the obvious but leave the crap wiring in place

Edited August 22, 2017 by Crossy
Flame removed

[Crossy]

A flame has been removed, let's keep it civil shall we?

 

There are indeed real sparkies here, but the vast majority (note that doesn't mean "all") of them are on O&G or major projects and wouldn't be seen dead doing domestic wiring for 500 Baht a day.

 

It's a sad fact of life that the majority of domestic "jobbing" electricians are not even up to what would be considered good DIY standards back home. We used up five during our build and I ended up fixing a lot of the issues later anyway.

 

Also, one has to take a pragmatic approach, if it's not unsafe or plain dangerous, even it it's rough and doesn't meet "our" code, no need to disturb it.

 

Case in point, our OP has some 1.5mm² on an outlet circuit, whilst rough it's on a 10A breaker so no issue (and he could safely up that to 15A). He doesn't have earth leakage protection on his shower, first upgrade required.

 

 

[Antioc]

Just installed a new Aircon in the Wife's house and was told for a second time to have the Line to the house upgraded to 15 amps.  

 

Spoke to the electrical company and they said it is essential if you have more than 2 Aircons that may be on at the same time (promptly upgraded).  I started an electrical apprenticeship as a lad but was left cold after the boss returned to France.  Learned enough to know that the Wife's house is a nightmare of wires and old fittings that are downright dangerous, especially with modern electrical appliances and additional energy use.

 

Whilst away recently the Wife employed an electrician to install a decent Earth system in the house.  On return I found a few extra power points, no Earth installed and a message from electrician that the house had enough cut-out (overload/safety) protection should something go wrong.  Cold comfort and a waste of money.  Thailand does have good electricians but they are usually tied up and cost much more as a previous OP indicated.

 

[BEVUP]

1 hour ago, Antioc said:

Just installed a new Aircon in the Wife's house and was told for a second time to have the Line to the house upgraded to 15 amps.  

 

Spoke to the electrical company and they said it is essential if you have more than 2 Aircons that may be on at the same time (promptly upgraded).  I started an electrical apprenticeship as a lad but was left cold after the boss returned to France.  Learned enough to know that the Wife's house is a nightmare of wires and old fittings that are downright dangerous, especially with modern electrical appliances and additional energy use.

 

Whilst away recently the Wife employed an electrician to install a decent Earth system in the house.  On return I found a few extra power points, no Earth installed and a message from electrician that the house had enough cut-out (overload/safety) protection should something go wrong.  Cold comfort and a waste of money.  Thailand does have good electricians but they are usually tied up and cost much more as a previous OP indicated.

 

Yes they are very busy 

Maybe 8 yrs ago had a good sparky & they quoted by the outlet / switch & ect

It was a big place with many down lights ect ect, cost 17,000 bht just for labour which was himself & 2 laborers 

over a 3 day period so I would double that & maybe add some

[maxpower]

20 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

MCB protects the wire - nothing else.  The OP has already stated that most of the wire is 2.5mm2.  That is rated for a 20 amp breaker.  If there is 1.5mm2 runs to light circuits - no big deal.  Any "electrician" would have done that in the first place.  My suggestion will not cause anything you say as a potential.

The OP has no electrical experience and you are bombarding him with ideas and suggestions that could lead to disaster.

 

@Dene16 Has told you that no experienced electrician would suggest increasing breaker size to avoid nuisance tripping and he is absolutely correct. There could be hidden joints that continue with cables below required capacity. Its a NO NO suggestion for the inexperienced, period.

This whole story has one huge red flag and any experienced electrician would jump on it immediately.

 

When the distribution board isolator is in the off position,  the shower continues to work !

 

There is now only one road forward and it don't include running off to DIY stores to buy magic breakers. The installation has serious problems and requires proper attention ASAP.  Preferably not by the idiot who connected the shower directly to the street.

 

Thankfully the OP has started to get a grip on the situation and realized he needs to make drastic changes to the distribution arrangement. This of course is where a few pointers will help him  deal with a Thai electrician.

[maxpower]

23 hours ago, grs90 said:

Also, by testing the sockets by trying to charge an old and now redundant laptop, all the sockets work but at many the laptop actually seems to vibrate when you touch it.

   

That's often the case when you touch the metal surface of devices that require ground but there is no ground at the outlet.

Filter components inside electronic power supplies are often looking for ground. If there is no ground present your body will provide it.

If filter comments fail and there is no real ground present then its up to the gods when you touch the device.