Am i illegal working in Thailand? Do i illegaly create revenue which might be taxable?

[thailove36]

23 minutes ago, Bob12345 said:

Nope.
I didnt get involved in that part because as soon as they see white faces the prices go uo. My thai business partners arranged all that stuff.

But there are hundreds of legal firms in Phuket alone already (around 5 already on walking distance of where i live) so let your gf ask around and keep the 10k in mind as an idea how much it might cost (we had a limited partnership with 4 thais and 2m registered capital).

I don't have much money left since it's almost all in the farm. I have about 1-2M THB left on my bankaccount and don't want to freeze that into a company. Is there a way to transfer all the mining stuff towards the company and declare it worth 4M?

If i understand correctly this should be a foreignowned company? 

Or you recommend me to do 51/49 with my girlfriend, then marry her, employ her mom and this will get me a workpermit?

Edited August 23, 2017 by thailove36

[Zikomat]

4 hours ago, thailove36 said:

No, not really about the Bitcoin price. I'm very happy if we drop to 500$ at all. I would even love to mine on a slightly loss though.

Probably , I understand something wrong.  If you make 5 BTC a month - it is about 20k USD with the current (4 k per BTC) price. But if BTC price falls down to 1 k  USD - how on earth will you be able to make a profit with 5 BTC? It's value will be less than your monthly electricity bill. Also , you said you are ready to work without profit at all. This one really puzzles me. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by Zikomat

[thailove36]

22 minutes ago, Zikomat said:

Probably , I understand something wrong.  If you make 5 BTC a month - it is about 20k USD with the current (4 k per BTC) price. But if BTC price falls down to 1 k  USD - how on earth will you be able to make a profit with 5 BTC? It's value will be less than your monthly electricity bill. Also , you said you are ready to work without profit at all. This one really puzzles me. 

 

- lets say BTC = 4k$ and i make 5 BTC and pay 2 BTC electricity, nets me 3 BTC a month.

- lets say BTC = 1k$ and i make 15 BTC and pay 8 BTC electricity nets me 7 BTC a month.

- lets say BTC = 500$ and i make 25 BTC and pay 16 BTC electricity nets me 8 BTC a month

 

those are just fanc numbers and nobody knows how badly the network will be damaged if the price drops that high.

 

Those numers are in $. i don't think $, indeed i think Bitcoin.

The next batch costs 1299$ which is somewhat like 0.30 BTC or whatever it is. With tax and shipping and PSU i spend 0.40 BTC from my wallet.

At the end of whatever period i need 0.41 BTC from this machine to say "i ran with a profit". In this case i don't mind the $ price. i paid BTC and i get back more BTC, whatever the BTC/$ rate is. I believe in BTC > 50.000$ anyways. that's why it doesnt make sense for me to buy bitcoin in $ and wait till they hit 50k$ to say "now i have more $". I simply want more Bitcoin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob12345]

1 hour ago, thailove36 said:

I don't have much money left since it's almost all in the farm. I have about 1-2M THB left on my bankaccount and don't want to freeze that into a company. Is there a way to transfer all the mining stuff towards the company and declare it worth 4M?

If i understand correctly this should be a foreignowned company? 

Or you recommend me to do 51/49 with my girlfriend, then marry her, employ her mom and this will get me a workpermit?

We had 2M registered capital but never paid in more than 5,000 baht in the company bank account.

In case the company would go south creditors could demand 2 million from the 4 shareholders (or just pick one out randomly and demand 2 million from that person) but that does not mean you need to pay it in upfront.

 

I can't advice you much on the legal structure you should consider as I have no insight knowledge of that. All I am saying is that registering a company with 4 shareholders and 2M capital should cost around 10K (probably a bit more in Phuket) but I guess getting a workpermit will make it much more expensive.

 

Go find a legal company to advice and assist you.

They should be able to explain the procedures, requirements, processing time, etc to you.

 

Or keep doing it secretly, in which case I would never mention it to anyone and play dumb.

Move your money out of Thailand, don't flash it around, and keep a low profile.

And if anybody asks, tell them you got it from your parents back home who regularly transfer you some money.

[Zikomat]

50 minutes ago, thailove36 said:

 I believe in BTC > 50.000$ anyways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What makes you believe it? I know it is possible. But there are many other possibilities too.

[falang07]

14 hours ago, thailove36 said:

Just some of the S9 (Bitcoin Miners) crash sometimes. then you just push a button for restart. and yes, seriously, that's all how a farm is running. I don't plan to put any more ASICs into it or upgrade or whatever. This setup runs forever (or at least long) for a long time. So all my "girl" is doing is literally pushing a button, in case she gets a pushnotification that a miner is offline. 

 

 

and this simple task can be easily automatized, too, do not forget we are in the 21st century already :-)

writing a simple script checking the miner and restarting it should not take more than an hour

[thailove36]

Just now, Zikomat said:

What makes you believe it? I know it is possible. But there are many other possibilities too.

The fact that people doubt this, is my believe. People still believing in regular FIAT Money is the strong growth of Bitcoin. For the first time for the entire human race, we have money that belongs us - the human beeings. Nobody takes it away, Nobody tells you what to do with it. This never happened before. Just wait 20 years.

 

 

1 minute ago, falang07 said:

and this simple task can be easily automatized, too, do not forget we are in the 21st century already :-)

writing a simple script checking the miner and restarting it should not take more than an hour

No, since if they freeze they freeze. You need a hardware reboot/reset to then get them back along. I'm working on it already. 

[falang07]

3 minutes ago, thailove36 said:

 

No, since if they freeze they freeze. You need a hardware reboot/reset to then get them back along. I'm working on it already. 

really? what system do they run on? I feel quite happy using Windows where restarting anything does not require a harware reset :)

Edited August 23, 2017 by falang07

[thailove36]

Just now, falang07 said:

really? what system do they run on? I feel quite happy using Windows where restarting anything does not require a harware reset :)

I had GPU Mining Rigs on Windows, they rarely freeze, but sometimes they do freeze. I also tried Linux Systems with Ubuntu 14.04 Server, they sometimes freezed aswell. 

I stopped GPU Mining 2 years ago, totally regretting it now. With Ethereum i would have been a multimillionair now. I switched completely to ASICs, making me poor and hard working.

I use http://www.awesomeminer.com/ to maintain the farm, but here and there freezes are real.

I have 2 broken units who overheat all the time. Annoying. Need to send them back to HK to fix them. But still more profitable to mine with halfworking S9 rather then zero S9.

[bazza73]

This sounds to me like the South Sea bubble, or when the Dutch were shelling out fortunes for tulip bulbs. Only this time, as far as I can make out, it's a block of code on a computer.

Whether bitcoin in its various forms continues to appreciate is in the hands of governments. They object to losing control of their currency. I'm sure there are bureaucrats beavering away to shut the systems down, or bring it into the fold where it can be taxed.

It's a moot point as to whether the OP is working illegally. If he's doing something a Thai cannot do, that confers some legality. First the authorities have to detect him, then charge him with an offence. Permit me to doubt Thailand has legislation in place that criminalises bitcoin mining.

[thailove36]

1 minute ago, bazza73 said:

This sounds to me like the South Sea bubble, or when the Dutch were shelling out fortunes for tulip bulbs. Only this time, as far as I can make out, it's a block of code on a computer.

Whether bitcoin in its various forms continues to appreciate is in the hands of governments. They object to losing control of their currency. I'm sure there are bureaucrats beavering away to shut the systems down, or bring it into the fold where it can be taxed.

It's a moot point as to whether the OP is working illegally. If he's doing something a Thai cannot do, that confers some legality. First the authorities have to detect him, then charge him with an offence. Permit me to doubt Thailand has legislation in place that criminalises bitcoin mining.

Bitcoin Mining or Bitcoin in generall is highly legalized in Thailand and regulated via National Bank of Thailand. www.bx.in.th is a regulated bitcoin exchange where you buy/trade/sell cryptocurrencies. Sell Bitcoin now and have the THB 1-10 hours later on your Bankaccount. Very nice.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, bazza73 said:

It's a moot point as to whether the OP is working illegally. If he's doing something a Thai cannot do, that confers some legality. First the authorities have to detect him, then charge him with an offence. Permit me to doubt Thailand has legislation in place that criminalises bitcoin mining.

He is clearly working illegally because he doesn't have permission as prescribed in Immigration law (S37.1). Whether a Thai can do the job or not has no bearing on the legality of the job/work, however, I am sure 'a Thai' could do whatever the OP is doing. The type of work/job determines whether or not permission to work will be given. Permission would be declined if the job is on the excluded list or has an adverse affect on the local labour market.

 

It's highly unlikely the authorities would pursue him, but his main problem would be with someone reporting his activity to the authorities who would then have to act. Working without permission is a prosecutable offence under the Immigration Act, and bitcoin mining is not exempt.

 

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following :

1. Shall not engage in the occupation or temporary or employment unless authorized by the Director General. or competent official deputized by the Director General ...

 

Section 75 : Any alien, who fails to comply with the provisions of Section 37(1) shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding 1 year or a fine not exceeding 10,000Baht or both.

Edited August 23, 2017 by elviajero

[elviajero]

20 hours ago, thailove36 said:

i appreciate your answer. so basically i am in hot water and better tell nobody about this? It feels like half phuket town knows about this. Also the mining farm from rawaii beach knows me, so i'm fairly known to some thai guys. dangerous?

Being reported to the authorities by someone is your biggest problem. So don't upset anyone.

 

20 hours ago, thailove36 said:

So if i just go there at the end of the year and said, i made 2M THB Profit, please let me pay tax - everything is fine? But then i still worked illegal, right? Even tho i am online-poker playing on my laptop - i am working illegal in Thailand, do i understand that correctly?

The tax man doesn't care about your immigration status. If you owe tax they will want it. Anyone can get a tax ID number. I doubt the Revenue Department has any liked data with the Immigration Bureau.

 

If playing online poker is considered to be your occupation as in; job, work, business, way of earning a living etc, then it's illegal. Plus gambling is illegal in Thailand.

 

Basically, if the authorities can prove you are working they can prosecute. If you were caught I suspect they would just fine and deport you/get your agreement to leave. If you were stupid enough to fight it and take it to court they would have to prove you are working, which from what you've said would be very easy.

 

20 hours ago, thailove36 said:

i think so. But then the police, my enemies or the landlord will say that my girl, who is simply cutting hair in her salon is too stupid to run a bitcoin mining farm, nor doesnt she even be able to explain all this kind of technical stuff. 

If i will send her next month to register a company in her name for bitcoin mining/trading, i'm ok with that. but do i need to proof that i am just sleeping next to the mining room or does anybody who prosecuted me need to proof that i ever touched any of the systems? sounds almost like an agent-thriller.

Based on everything you've said I would, if I were you, legitimise the business in some way. 

 

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, thailove36 said:

I don't have much money left since it's almost all in the farm. I have about 1-2M THB left on my bankaccount and don't want to freeze that into a company. Is there a way to transfer all the mining stuff towards the company and declare it worth 4M?

If i understand correctly this should be a foreignowned company? 

Or you recommend me to do 51/49 with my girlfriend, then marry her, employ her mom and this will get me a workpermit?

• If you get a good accountant to set things up you shouldn't need to deposit the full 2M in cash.
• You cant have 51% of the company. It must be at least 51% Thai owned. If the companies set up correctly you can retain control with only 49%.
• Being married can reduce the number of Thai employees to two, but that's not a given and may depend on the office administering the company application.

[thailove36]

34 minutes ago, elviajero said:

• If you get a good accountant to set things up you shouldn't need to deposit the full 2M in cash.
• You cant have 51% of the company. It must be at least 51% Thai owned. If the companies set up correctly you can retain control with only 49%.
• Being married can reduce the number of Thai employees to two, but that's not a given and may depend on the office administering the company application.

thank you. i will consult a law agency 

[stevenl]

11 hours ago, onthesoi said:

If you mean the OP's setup is even more incriminating then I agree.

 

Of course the usual caveats apply, but do you have reason to disbelieve him?

____

 

I'm just wondering if someone in authority read this thread then requested a list of all the domestic properties in Phuket with a monthly electricty bill exceeding 100k baht, then the next question would be how many of those properties have a falang and thai girl living together..... How long would that list be?

Yes, when someone claims that somebody got arrested, tried and expelled for opening a door to labourers and watch them work I have reason to doubt that story.

[Maestro]

Using a computer or several computers to search for information is, in my opinion, not an activity that requires a work permit.

 

I know nothing about mining cryptocurrencies but is it not using one's computer to search for a number or an alphanumeric string of digits?

 

Of course, if you go around telling people you are working and if somebody then passes this information on to the police or the Department of Employment they would be derelict in their duties if they did not look into it.

[eisfeld]

It's debateable what the chances of him getting caught are but I don't think there can be anyone seriously seeing this as not working. He needs to order equipment, set it up, keep it running, rent a property, think about cooling and security, maybe he needs to every now and then change what currency he's mining, keep track of the cryptocurrency markets... all for a profit. It's a clear commercial enterprise, let's not kid ourselves. The OP is also fully aware of that and with other Thai miners in the area... they have a nice incentive to mess his operation up. Let the immigration police get a nice catch, maybe a reward and they get ahold of $100k worth of mining equipment. Why take all these risks if you can get a company and workpermit for a small fraction of the monthly electricity bill? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

Thailove36: I'm sure you're aware of this but if BTC were to crash again in value, you wouldn't just suddenly mine more coins, even if a lot of miners would stop. Of course if you'd also switch currencies then it might even out again.

[bazza73]

21 hours ago, elviajero said:

 

 

 

If playing online poker is considered to be your occupation as in; job, work, business, way of earning a living etc, then it's illegal. Plus gambling is illegal in Thailand.

 

 

 

Interesting. So if I play online poker in Thailand, I am breaking the law. If I trade on the SET, am I breaking the law if I don't have a work permit? Or is stock trading in Thailand regarded as gambling?

If I trade shares and options on the Australian sharemarket using an Australian online broker from my computer in Thailand, am I breaking the law?

Apologies if this is getting off topic.

[MyFriend You]

Now I know why they call it Crypto Currency - get enough people talking about it and it is indeed Cryptic...........meanwhile back in the US stock market..........I made $8,975 USD and didn't have to push any buttons, or pay any 200K Baht electricity bills.

[Bob12345]

Now I know why they call it Crypto Currency - get enough people talking about it and it is indeed Cryptic...........meanwhile back in the US stock market..........I made $8,975 USD and didn't have to push any buttons, or pay any 200K Baht electricity bills.

You seem like a small player.

I made a trillion dollars yesterday and didn't even have to get out of bed besides for a pee at 8am and a poo at noon.

Tomorrow i think i will predict the usd exchange rate to the euro and earn approximately 200 quatrillion dollars in an hour. And all without even paying for my lunch as Trump will send it to me for free as a gift.

Your turn again with nonsense bragging.

[MyFriend You]

Just now, Bob12345 said:

You seem like a small player.

I made a trillion dollars yesterday and didn't even have to get out of bed besides for a pee at 8am and a poo at noon.

Tomorrow i think i will predict the usd exchange rate to the euro and earn approximately 200 quatrillion dollars in an hour. And all without even paying for my lunch as Trump will send it to me for free as a gift.

Your turn again with nonsense bragging.

I surrender.............

[manonthemon]

Sooo, can I take you out for a beer to learn how to set up my own bitcoin farm on Phuket too? My girlfriend is really bored, some button-pushig would do her good

[elviajero]

On 8/24/2017 at 9:01 AM, bazza73 said:

Interesting. So if I play online poker in Thailand, I am breaking the law. If I trade on the SET, am I breaking the law if I don't have a work permit? Or is stock trading in Thailand regarded as gambling?

If I trade shares and options on the Australian sharemarket using an Australian online broker from my computer in Thailand, am I breaking the law?

Apologies if this is getting off topic.

As I said gambling in Thailand is illegal, and when you are in Thailand you are governed it's laws. It is your physical location that matters and not where the server you are gambling on is located. IMO it would be highly unlikely for the Thai authorities to prosecute a foreigner for playing online poker, but the possibility exists.

 

Trading the stock market isn't considered 'gambling', even though of course it is. And the official lottery, which is the ultimate gamble, is legal!

 

There is nothing stopping someone from earning a passive income from a business or investments abroad. All the law says is that you need permission to carry out an occupation. If you are a professional trader or actively making the trades then I think you'd be on dodgy ground, but I doubt this type of work would be prosecuted unless it was a blatant business being operated in Thailand.

Edited August 25, 2017 by elviajero

[thailove36]

Allright, setting um my company next week.

Including the end-goal of a work-permit i got an offer of 65k THB.

 

Costs seems a bit hefty tho, roughly 10k extra per month.

Now people say, that with 200k THB profit a month 10k shouldn't be an issue, BUT, with 4M THB down the line, an approximately good 6 months of mining untill i run breakeven unless the price skyrokets again, fearing that the coin drops massively in value and the factor of paying tax on the profits at the end of the year, yes 10k a month extra is annoying :)

[wgdanson]

On 8/23/2017 at 9:34 AM, ubonjoe said:

He running servers not a PC.

You calculation is not correct. You pay by KW hours. It would be 4.8 KW per day which would be about 576 baht.

Sorry Ubon, 576 per month. So where does 225,000 come from

 

[gk10002000]

Reading over the bit coin mining process, this engineer thinks you are nuts! 225 K baht electric bill?  Computers and servers all over the place?  I would not want to be you when the Thai authorities raid your place on a tip or a hint.  Between the underlying bit coin design and the Thai laws, the odds are stacked against you.  Go home, make some money, or set up your business there, then come back to Thailand.

[eisfeld]

33 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Sorry Ubon, 576 per month. So where does 225,000 come from

 

Ok let's try again. These specialized hardware miners (ASICs, nothing even close to a PC so don't compare it to one) that he's running consume roughly 1.2 - 1.4 kW according to the manufacturers page.

So a single unit will consume at least 1.2kW*24h*30 = 864kWh in a month. At his average price of 3.8 THB per kWh, one mining unit will cause electricity charges of 3283 THB. Or around 3800 THB if he has one with 1.4 kW. Add to that some cooling and other overhead and it surely is at least 4000 THB per miner. Now put 40-50 of these in a building (which comes close to the $100k he said he invested; you can already see 36 of them in the picture he posted) and you are at 200k+ THB electricity consumed each month.

Edited August 25, 2017 by eisfeld

[Naam]

On 8/22/2017 at 11:40 PM, thailove36 said:

 

just suuuper noisy at like 90 dB, roughly 45 kw/h per hour and a LOT of heat!

 

~200 amps from a 15/50amp meter?

[eisfeld]

Naam: At his avg price of 3.8 THB per kWh, he'd be actually using north of 80kW on avg, so something like 360-370A. But he did upgrade his meter and supply sufficiently it seems. He's not running on the 15/50A meter.

 

On 8/22/2017 at 5:10 PM, thailove36 said:

i run 3phase 400amp, in the other place 150amp.