German legal experts say Poland has no right to WW2 reparations - report

[transam]

Just now, johna said:

Your argument is equally applicable to Germans who fought in the war.

So, what about your clean hands comment...?

[johna]

Just now, transam said:

The Germans carpet bombed civilians in the UK in 1940, is that OK with you...?

Some of you snowflakes really need to get a life, the British carpet bombed German cities into ashes is that OK with you.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, johna said:

And I will go on defending Irving as one of WW2 best historians, I never defended Irving's Holocaust denial. You can Google Dresden and get as many different casualty figures as you like, none of which makes the bombing of a city packed with refugees, of no military significance in the closing days of the war justifiable. You seem to be looking for some moral high ground here if so you have failed miserably. 

He's one of WW2's best historians who is a holocaust denier? And for someone who claims to be able to judge the competence of an historian. you seem bizarrely unable to understand how to judge evidence. I'm sure you can get estimates all over the place. The function of an historian is to discern which are the most reliable ones. Clearly he ignored authoritative sources. And while the bombing of Dresden may have been a war crime, it is the function of an historian to accurately depict events including the extent of that crime. Instead, Irving lied about it.

[johna]

1 minute ago, transam said:

So, what about your clean hands comment...?

What about it ???

[transam]

13 minutes ago, johna said:

Some of you snowflakes really need to get a life, the British carpet bombed German cities into ashes is that OK with you.

You will not answer my simple question, the Germans carpet bombed UK cities in 1940, they started the tactic years before...Is that OK with you...You dismiss the fact don't you..

 

PS. Don't call folk here snowflakes.

[cyberfarang]

On 9/1/2017 at 10:01 PM, johna said:

Hardly a good reason for bombing Dresden, my parents fought through WW2 and I never heard them complain about the Germans as much as you people do!!!!

Who`s side were they on?

 

My father fought for Britain and the allies during WW2, he was one of part of the British force that liberated Belsen and hated the Germans until the day he died.

[Jdiddy]

22 hours ago, transam said:

Do not forget the Germans started what the free world had to finish..

I wouldnt call the Soviets the free world

[Justgrazing]

On 01/09/2017 at 0:19 PM, gamini said:

The russians by far

Indeed .. The Russians tend to get off lightly when it comes to the  " Oo did what " from that time .. and what about the Ruskies paying some compo for everything they smashed up or nicked .. 

[GinBoy2]

Interesting if you look at who the real casualties of WW2 were.

China, Poland, Lithuania, Timor & the Soviet Union were the real losers by numbers, and by % of population it was staggering

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

Sorry I did misquote there. Hyper inflation was in part due the the massive over borrowing, you can't live on credit for ever. 

But the final collapse was absolutely due the US banks calling in their loans after the crash

They hyperinflation was not due to overborrowing. It was due to Germany having to print currency to purchase gold backed foreign currency to pay off the fines imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. Of course that led to devaluation which led to more printing which led to more devaluation etc. Ultimately the mark became  virtually worthless. So France and Belgium occupied the Ruhr to extract payment in coal. Also, once the hyperinflation crisis was past, the Germany economy began to recover very strongly. So the great depression really wasn't the final blow. It had nothing to do with what went on before in Germany. An entirely exogenous shock.

[GinBoy2]

14 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

They hyperinflation was not due to overborrowing. It was due to Germany having to print currency to purchase gold backed foreign currency to pay off the fines imposed by the Treaty of Versailles. Of course that led to devaluation which led to more printing which led to more devaluation etc. Ultimately the mark became  virtually worthless. So France and Belgium occupied the Ruhr to extract payment in coal. Also, once the hyperinflation crisis was past, the Germany economy began to recover very strongly. So the great depression really wasn't the final blow. It had nothing to do with what went on before in Germany. An entirely exogenous shock.

Again, they stopping paying anything from 1923. The massive borrowing from then had absolutely nothing to do with 1919

[ilostmypassword]

35 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Again, they stopping paying anything from 1923. The massive borrowing from then had absolutely nothing to do with 1919

Add by then it was too late. And the massive borrowing as you call it began after the hyperinflation was put behind them. Borrowing played virtually no role in the hyperinflation that Germany experienced. There certainly was borrowing by the Germans to pay the war debt but that started in 1924. After hyperinflation was tamed.It was called the Dawes Plan.

[johna]

23 hours ago, transam said:

You will not answer my simple question, the Germans carpet bombed UK cities in 1940, they started the tactic years before...Is that OK with you...You dismiss the fact don't you..

 

PS. Don't call folk here snowflakes.

Germans bombed British cities, British bombed German cities, it's called war, something about that you don't understand. ????

[johna]

23 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

He's one of WW2's best historians who is a holocaust denier? And for someone who claims to be able to judge the competence of an historian. you seem bizarrely unable to understand how to judge evidence. I'm sure you can get estimates all over the place. The function of an historian is to discern which are the most reliable ones. Clearly he ignored authoritative sources. And while the bombing of Dresden may have been a war crime, it is the function of an historian to accurately depict events including the extent of that crime. Instead, Irving lied about it.

and what evidence did Irving ignore, please enlighten me, Irving had until his Holocaust denial problems complete access to British, German and Russian war archives, I know of no other historian granted such access.

[boomerangutang]

On 9/1/2017 at 9:09 AM, johna said:

I agree that these claims should be thrown out, not because of a treaty signed in 1990 but simply because there would be no end to such claims. WW2 ended 72 years ago.  No one who fought in WW2 has clean hands.

Wow, this is a big topic.  I can see both sides.  In Germany's defense, it can say "Hey, tough tamales, wars happen. Whatdyagonnado? Sue Mongolia for the hordes of horsemen who caused havoc centuries ago? ....sue Turkey for the two invasions of Austria?  Sue France for the massive suffering caused by Napoleon's armies?  ....on and on."

 

On the other hand, WWII happened 2 generations ago.  Germans blatantly invaded neighboring countries.  Actually, Russia invaded Poland also, concurrently at that time.  It's the mother of all cans of worms.  If taken to the 10th degree, about 50 countries would be involved.   

 

 

[GOLDBUGGY]

4 minutes ago, johna said:

Germans bombed British cities, British bombed German cities, it's called war, something about that you don't understand. ????

This is true.

 

But since this topic is about what the war compensation between Germany and Poland should, or should not be, how many German Cities did Poland bomb? How many German Ships or Submarines did Poland sink and destroy? How many German Citizens did Poland line up and shoot? How many German Women did Polish Men rape? In fact the only bombing and sabotage I can think of against the Germans was in there own country done by there Underground Forces against an enemy who invaded them.  

 

Please don't use Russia in your calculations as Russia and Poland are two totally different countries then. In fact Russia helped destroy what was left of Poor Poland that the Germans didn't destroy yet. 

[ilostmypassword]

11 minutes ago, johna said:

and what evidence did Irving ignore, please enlighten me, Irving had until his Holocaust denial problems complete access to British, German and Russian war archives, I know of no other historian granted such access.

I just cited you an example. His estimate of up to 250,000 dead from the Dresden bombings was absurd. It exceeded even what Goebbels claimed. Goebbels! 

"According to Richard J. Evans, an expert witness for the defence at the 2000 libel trial of Deborah Lipstadt,^[9] Irving based his estimates of the dead at Dresden on the word of one individual, Hans Voigt, who provided no supporting documentation,^[10] used forged documents,^[11] and described one witness named Max Funfack as Dresden's Deputy Chief Medical Officer.^[12] Funfack had made it clear by letter to Irving on 19 January 1965 that he had not been either the Chief or Deputy Chief Medical Officer in Dresden, that he had no knowledge of any documentation about the number of people who were killed in the bombing, and during the war he had only heard rumours, which varied greatly, over the number of people who were killed in the raids".^[12][13]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Destruction_of_Dresden}

In addition he is a proven liar. Detailed specific evidence was cited to show how Irving consistently mistranslated or omitted inconvenient facts. So who cares what archives he had access to. It's what you do with that access that counts.

 "Not one of [Irving's] books, speeches or articles, not one paragraph, not one sentence in any of them, can be taken on trust as an accurate representation of its historical subject. All of them are completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be trusted anywhere, in any of them, to give a reliable account of what he is talking or writing about (Evans 1996d, General Conclusion ¶ 6.21).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Destruction_of_Dresden

[ilostmypassword]

7 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

This is true.

 

But since this topic is about what the war compensation between Germany and Poland should, or should not be, how many German Cities did Poland bomb? How many German Ships or Submarines did Poland sink and destroy? How many German Citizens did Poland line up and shoot? How many German Women did Polish Men rape? In fact the only bombing and sabotage I can think of against the Germans was in there own country done by there Underground Forces against an enemy who invaded them.  

 

Please don't use Russia in your calculations as Russia and Poland are two totally different countries then. In fact Russia helped destroy what was left of Poor Poland that the Germans didn't destroy yet. 

And to add to that, please don't cite that fake figure of 58,000 ethnic German Polish citizens killed by Poles before the war. It's an entirely fake claim the source of which was Josef Goebbels.

[GOLDBUGGY]

9 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

Wow, this is a big topic.  I can see both sides.  In Germany's defense, it can say "Hey, tough tamales, wars happen. Whatdyagonnado? Sue Mongolia for the hordes of horsemen who caused havoc centuries ago? ....sue Turkey for the two invasions of Austria?  Sue France for the massive suffering caused by Napoleon's armies?  ....on and on."

 

On the other hand, WWII happened 2 generations ago.  Germans blatantly invaded neighboring countries.  Actually, Russia invaded Poland also, concurrently at that time.  It's the mother of all cans of worms.  If taken to the 10th degree, about 50 countries would be involved.   

 

 

I agree. It is also a little late to be asking for compensation anyway, but an apology may be in order. 

 

Germany already was forced to pay a lot of compensation after the first World War, which may even had led up to the second war. Germany also suffered huge loses in this war and after the war. Including having there country divided, and losing a lot of land to Poland. Many of which were the rich coal fields which are now the East of Poland. 

 

So maybe they are even. That maybe Poland should be going after Russia for compensation. But being so close to Russia most Polish People still fear a Russina Invastion even today. 

[yardrunner]

On 9/3/2017 at 10:30 AM, Jdiddy said:

I wouldnt call the Soviets the free world

as Churchill said, i would have a treaty with the devil if i had to

[David Walden]

3 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

Wow, this is a big topic.  I can see both sides.  In Germany's defense, it can say "Hey, tough tamales, wars happen. Whatdyagonnado? Sue Mongolia for the hordes of horsemen who caused havoc centuries ago? ....sue Turkey for the two invasions of Austria?  Sue France for the massive suffering caused by Napoleon's armies?  ....on and on."

 

On the other hand, WWII happened 2 generations ago.  Germans blatantly invaded neighboring countries.  Actually, Russia invaded Poland also, concurrently at that time.  It's the mother of all cans of worms.  If taken to the 10th degree, about 50 countries would be involved. 

 

 

  

 

 

Never truer words spoken....If you go back and study up history and the restrictive trading arrangements imposed on Germany leading up to WW1 by other European nations you will get a better prospective of why the war came about...WW1 had very little to with the Balkans  assassinations when WW1 started that was just an excuse the get the show on the road.   Wars are always about trading matters...ALWAYS.

[GinBoy2]

41 minutes ago, David Walden said:

Never truer words spoken....If you go back and study up history and the restrictive trading arrangements imposed on Germany leading up to WW1 by other European nations you will get a better prospective of why the war came about...WW1 had very little to with the Balkans  assassinations when WW1 started that was just an excuse the get the show on the road.   Wars are always about trading matters...ALWAYS.

Thats a very simplistic view

The reasons for WW1 probably date back to Kaiser Wilhelm firing Bismark.

Bismark understood very well the danger for Germany being surrounded, so actively sought allies. 

Wilhelm was mercurial and unpredictable, that coupled with his rather bizarre relationship with his English mother, Vicky, created a very unstable element.

Remember, even though there was  the Reichstag, Germany was still essentially an autocracy.

Germany before 1914 was producing more steel than than Britain, so the notion that it's trade was being thwarted is false.

Wilhelm actually tried to backtrack on his 'blank check' to Austria-Hungary, but the military leadership blocked his telegram to Franz-Josef.

It is one of the great 'what if's' of history, that had Wilhelm's father Fritz and his mother Vicky had actually reigned longer than 99 days whether Germany may have turned from autocratic militarism to a more constitution monarchy, which was after after all the goal of Victoria & Albert when they basically dispatched Vicky as a child bride to marry Fritz

[transam]

4 hours ago, johna said:

Germans bombed British cities, British bombed German cities, it's called war, something about that you don't understand. ????

Think you are twisting what you initially said, you condemn German cities being bombed in the later part of the war but you dismiss that the Germans started the tactic in 1940, and it wasn't only the UK that suffered carpet bombing. Plus the Germans starved to death zillions in Russian cities.........And do not forget the zillions of civilians that were executed for doing nothing wrong in execution camps.......

[GinBoy2]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

Think you are twisting what you initially said, you condemn German cities being bombed in the later part of the war but you dismiss that the Germans started the tactic in 1940, and it wasn't only the UK that suffered carpet bombing. Plus the Germans starved to death zillions in Russian cities.........And do not forget the zillions of civilians that were executed for doing nothing wrong in execution camps.......

To put this in perspective

 

Compare that to the 6M in Poland and the 20M who died in the Soviet Union.

 

I think we kind of forget the scale of the killing that occurred in the East, but it dwarfs anything that Germany suffered, as bad as that was

[zydeco]

On 9/1/2017 at 4:57 PM, ilostmypassword said:

Actually, after WW1 Germany was forced to pay massive compensation. A big factor leading to WW2.

The Dawes and Young plans, together, essentially let Germany off the hook for most of its reparations due other countries as a result of World War II

[David Walden]

4 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

Thats a very simplistic view

The reasons for WW1 probably date back to Kaiser Wilhelm firing Bismark.

Bismark understood very well the danger for Germany being surrounded, so actively sought allies. 

Wilhelm was mercurial and unpredictable, that coupled with his rather bizarre relationship with his English mother, Vicky, created a very unstable element.

Remember, even though there was  the Reichstag, Germany was still essentially an autocracy.

Germany before 1914 was producing more steel than than Britain, so the notion that it's trade was being thwarted is false.

Wilhelm actually tried to backtrack on his 'blank check' to Austria-Hungary, but the military leadership blocked his telegram to Franz-Josef.

It is one of the great 'what if's' of history, that had Wilhelm's father Fritz and his mother Vicky had actually reigned longer than 99 days whether Germany may have turned from autocratic militarism to a more constitution monarchy, which was after after all the goal of Victoria & Albert when they basically dispatched Vicky as a child bride to marry Fritz

I could go into thousands of pages and details about the economics of Germany and Europe in the world prior to WW1.  You mention that Germany was producing more steel then Britain, I believe this is true but they needed someone to sell it to, wars are all about trade...20/30 years later the same thing happened prior to WW2, Germany had the capacity to produce gargantuan amounts of steel and many other products again no one would buy them, 60% unemployed.  So rev up the population and say it "we gotta do something, if they will not buy our steel we will make tanks, canons, planes, battleships etc etc and blast our way out of this", Germany lost the war battles. but would you believe they won the economic war, it all worked. There are thousand of examples going back to when time began, they are all about trade between nations.  Germany is and has been the largest economic power in Europe for 50 years...Hitler achieved what he set out to do ...be it 50 years after his death.

 

This sort of things has been happening since time began in a thousands of wars.  It is happening to-day.  When trade is not even with countries all hell can breakout.  North Korea today could be a classic example.

[ilostmypassword]

6 minutes ago, David Walden said:

I could go into thousands of pages and details about the economics of Germany and Europe in the world prior to WW1.  You mention that Germany was producing more steel then Britain, I believe this is true but they needed someone to sell it to, wars are all about trade...20/30 years later the same thing happened prior to WW2, Germany had the capacity to produce gargantuan amounts of steel and many other products again no one would buy them, 60% unemployed.  So rev up the population and say it "we gotta do something, if they will not buy our steel we will make tanks, canons, planes, battleships etc etc and blast our way out of this", Germany lost the war battles. but would you believe they won the economic war, it all worked. There are thousand of examples going back to when time began, they are all about trade between nations.  Germany is and has been the largest economic power in Europe for 50 years...Hitler achieved what he set out to do ...be it 50 years after his death.

 

This sort of things has been happening since time began in a thousands of wars.  It is happening to-day.  When trade is not even with countries all hell can breakout.  North Korea today could be a classic example.

You have yet to produce any evidence of that 60 percent figure. And your evidence is tendentious. There's plenty of unequal trading relations in the EU. No sign of war. This is a bee-in-the-bonnet version of history.

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, David Walden said:

I could go into thousands of pages and details about the economics of Germany and Europe in the world prior to WW1.  You mention that Germany was producing more steel then Britain, I believe this is true but they needed someone to sell it to, wars are all about trade...20/30 years later the same thing happened prior to WW2, Germany had the capacity to produce gargantuan amounts of steel and many other products again no one would buy them, 60% unemployed.  So rev up the population and say it "we gotta do something, if they will not buy our steel we will make tanks, canons, planes, battleships etc etc and blast our way out of this", Germany lost the war battles. but would you believe they won the economic war, it all worked. There are thousand of examples going back to when time began, they are all about trade between nations.  Germany is and has been the largest economic power in Europe for 50 years...Hitler achieved what he set out to do ...be it 50 years after his death.

 

This sort of things has been happening since time began in a thousands of wars.  It is happening to-day.  When trade is not even with countries all hell can breakout.  North Korea today could be a classic example.

You're making up a version of history which the facts don't support.

 

The German Economy By 1914 - Was Europe's industrial superpower, share of world trade only rivalled by Britain, largest manufacture of cotton cloth, overtaken Britain in iron, steel prod increased 9 times 1890-1914. AEG + Siemens 50% of worlds electrical products, by 1900 prod 90% of worlds synthetic dyes, Dailmer and Benz created first car

 

https://getrevising.co.uk/grids/economy_in_wilhelmine_germany_1900_1914_1

[David Walden]

On 9/3/2017 at 8:36 AM, David Walden said:

Forget about all the details of how wars come about...all wars since time began are about trading arrangements and the ability of nations to produce products and to sell them to other people so they can provides jobs for their people..

 

Both Germany and Japan for the 20 years prior to WW2 had the most developed manufacturing base in the world.  They were almost totally unused until Hitler came along.  He had 60% unemployed (he blamed the Jews for this) but soon sorted that out by using his manufacturing base to produce fighter planes, battleships, submarines, cannons, roads, rifles and blast his way around.  The result was full employment and lot of soldiers...Japan did the same.  In a nutshell this is how wars are started and won.  If you screw your neighbour till he has nothing to loose he will come and bite you.

 

Hitler set out the make Germany the most influential and the best trading nation in the world, his methods as we know were just terrible.  So what did he achieve?  The best trading nation in the world or maybe it's that other nation Japan...it is a toss up who really won WW2.

 

People often say what's the point of studying history, well history will tell you how all wars are started...give it a go.

 

    

My comments in this subject are neither for against Germany.  My figures come from "the Funk and Wagnel Encyclopedia" which was very popular 40 years ago. This encyclopedia has a large section which describes much about Germany and gives lots and lots of figures about the times leading up to WW2.  My 60 % unemployment figure come from about half a volume on this subject.  It is published by Jewish people.  It contains some surprising information leading up to and after the 3rd Reich being established.

 

In addition to this at the age now of 75 yo.  I very much recall a history teacher I had in 1955, I was 13 y/o at the time.  The teacher was Captain Doug Whitten British Army and a real Scotsman (Brrrrrristish Army thank you)  posted to Palestine During WW2.  After the war he remained in Palestine during the establishment of Israel. (long story)

 

He retired from the army in 1950 and spent 5 years working for the United Nation on the refugee problems which was created by the displacement of a million or more people from Israel after 1948.

 

  He was also my teacher at the time of the Suez Canal crises and building the Aswan Dam in Egypt when the USSR issued an ultimatum to Briton and France to remove their troops from the Suez with a certain time or a state of war would exist.  The USSR had over a million men to place in the field at Suez within a few days.  Briton and France complied.  He was an expert on all matter relating to WW2 and Middle East.  We had first hand daily commentary from him ( very exciting for 13 y/o boys at the time).  It very nearly started.

 

  Doug was often interrupted by the headmaster during lessons when some politician from the Australian Government wanting to talk to him or other newspapers to get advice.  He also had a program on Sunday Radio when he answered questions about Middle East problems.  When he was needed our Headmaster would take over the class while Doug went to the phone he liked to remind us boys, just how good a teacher we had, we all agreed and very much liked him (didn't like most of my teachers).  Being not long after the war he made History a delight, anything about the war was all we wanted to talk about.  It was he that made the claim that all wars since the beginning of time are about trade between nations.  Australia produces about 35 million tons of grain each year, we use about 2 million tons.  If nobody would buy the leftover 33 million tons we would likely want to shoot someone.  That's what wars are.

 

He often used to say to us boys (13 y/o) how do think you would feel if you had to line up each day for food, live in tents in Lebanon, have no shoes live in rags, he predicted lots of likely outcomes about the looming terrorist problems.  He predicted that in 10 years the terrorist problem in the Middle East would be out of control when all the refugee boys like us grew up, they had nothing to loose.  He had hands on experience.  Still going on 60 years later.

 

He was posted to Germany prior to WW2 which he mention but would not talk about.  His figures about unemployment in Germany prior to Hitler was 66% out of work with lots of evidence to back it up?  I believed him then, still do.

 

 

 

 

[David Walden]

6 hours ago, Justgrazing said:

You Sir are a scholar .. 

Thank you...I'm really enjoying this discussion.  Perhaps it's out of control under this Thaivisa heading?...