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Swedish MP Condemns Brexit Deportations of Elderly Britons

A Swedish MP has criticised the deportation and removal of elderly British citizens from Sweden over Brexit residency rules, saying the cases are harming relations with the United Kingdom as both countries seek to improve ties.

Häkan Svenneling, an opposition lawmaker for Värmland, said he had written to Sweden’s migration minister, Johan Forssell, after Joyce Thomas, a 78-year-old British widow, was given four weeks to leave Sweden following 21 years living in the country.

Letter Sparks Questions Over Deportations

Svenneling said Thomas was ordered to leave after an appeal failed a week earlier, and he asked Forssell what steps the government plans to take “to stop the deportations”. Svenneling is due to meet Thomas on Wednesday.

Thomas moved to Sweden in her late 50s to live nearer one of her sons and her grandchildren. Her husband, who did administrative work in their household, died of cancer in 2023. Thomas said she and friends had checked whether they needed to complete forms to remain after Brexit, and were told they did not.

She later submitted a late application in 2023, several weeks after returning from the UK, but missed the deadline of 31 December 2021. Thomas told the Guardian that she is in “shock” and said her situation has left her feeling unwell, with her removal imminent.

Withdrawal Agreement And Missed Deadlines

Svenneling argued that British citizens who were legally resident in Sweden before the UK’s exit from the EU should retain their existing rights under the withdrawal agreement. He said the EU-UK treaty was not intended to strip people who had lived in Sweden for decades of their right to remain due to a missed deadline or alleged shortcomings in an application.


RELATED

Dementia-hit British man faces deportation from Sweden

Brexit Rules Threaten British Widow After 21 Years in Sweden


His intervention also adds to growing pressure on Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson and his centre-right minority coalition to address concerns about how Sweden is applying the legally binding withdrawal agreement.

Svenneling said the UK had long been an important partner for Sweden and described the removals as damaging bilateral relations.

screenshot_4224.jpg

Picture courtesy of The Guardian

Another Elderly Case Highlighted

The MP also cited another case involving Horace (George) Mason, 74, who has dementia and Parkinson’s disease and is in full-time care. Mason moved to Sweden 25 years ago to be near his son Carl and grandchildren and was also given four weeks to leave.

Mason’s family tried a second legal route to remain, arguing that European human rights rules require him to be able to stay close to relatives who rely on him. The migration court of appeal ruled against the request, saying the state’s interest in regulated immigration outweighed Mason’s interest in continuing to reside in Sweden.

Writing in the Guardian, David Milstead, who leads the campaign group Brits in Sweden, said the group had raised concerns about Sweden’s approach as far back as 2020 and said the safeguards were “untested”. He said that among cases of genuine late applications brought to the group, it could not verify an instance where Sweden accepted the reasons for applying after the deadline.

UK Says Sweden Takes Stricter Approach

The UK Foreign Office said it had repeatedly raised concerns with the European Commission that Sweden takes a considerably stricter approach than other EU member states to late applications, with a disproportionate number of refusals. It said that in practice people were unlikely to have their grounds for a late application accepted.

Sweden’s migration agency said it could not comment on individual cases. It added that not knowing that a Brexit-related application needed to be made to remain in the country was not considered a reasonable ground.

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19 August 2026

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Patong2021 Diamond Member

Patong2021

Advanced Member
13 hours ago, Parsve said:

What kind of proof do you have for that statement? It has happened a couple of times in Sweden that unauthorised people have been employed in hospitals; the most well-known one was an Italian professor who was a doctor, but faked the results of his studies. Most of those migrants in Sweden have to go through very hard tests, including Swedish language, even if they can show documents that they are authorised doctors or nurses from their home country. You are stating that the Swedish healthcare associations, as well as municipal and county council associations, say we are already severely understaffed, and that you are threatening to expel 1/3 of our staff. You are threatening Swedish welfare Show me the proof for that you are right.

This is not about unauthorized personnel. Migrants are not used for professional healthcare services. The proponents of open borders who bring up foreign healthworkers, like to focus on professional personnel, but they are neither at risk of removal, nor the majority of foreign national healthcare workers. The vast majority of foreign national workers are used for unskilled and general labour activities such as kitchen workers, cleaners, orderlies and attendants. These jobs had high turnover and staffing shortages became acute when Covid was underway. Refugee claimants were sent to fill these jobs. Screening, background checks and training was intentionally skipped or overlooked just so long as bodies could be sent to facilities.

The physical and sexual assaults on patients are real. It was not just Sweden. It was any country who took in migrants and sent them to senior care facilities and hospitals. The incidents are significantly under reported because it would require the facilities taking responsibility for the incidents. No government, whether it is in Sweden or Canada or Germany or Australia or the UK etc. wants to take responsibility for this serious problem. Ask the family members who raised the issue of physical abuse and neglect. Their concerns were dismissed. The worker unions certainly did their utmost to silence the issue using racial prejudice to distract from worker misconduct.

Prior to Covid, Sweden had an estimated patient abuse rate of "one in five female patients and one in ten male patients "

That's not me making up the data, but is taken from Toward an Understanding of Abuse in Health Care: A Female Patient Perspective, Brüggemann, A. Jelmer, Linköping University, Department of Clinical and Experimental Medicine, Gender and medicine. Linköping University, Faculty of Health Sciences.

Abuse has a broad definition and the direct physical and verbal abuse and neglect by general workers is a distinct sub-category. There may not be thousands of incidents, but they occur.

geisha Platinum Member

geisha

Advanced Member
On 8/19/2026 at 5:29 AM, Patong2021 said:

The Swedish tax payers should not be expected to take on the burden of British hardluck cases.

They were living there legally before Brexit. The Swedes are behaving cruelly, sending them away from their only family and grandchildren. Disgusting.

Geoff914 Gold Member

Geoff914

Advanced Member
On 8/19/2026 at 4:24 PM, DonniePeverley said:

Not a single benefit of Brexit. Farage and co lied to you all ... pandered to the racist gene in them.

Why are you blaming Farage for this. It was Johnson that took the UK out of the EU

loong Ruby Member

loong

Advanced Member
22 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

Are you incapable of doing basic math?

Sweden has a health care spend of 64,000 Kronar per citizen.

There are 829,000 registered foreign residents who have personnummers, giving them access state healthcare.

240,000 of these people are refugee status. https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/sverige-i-siffror/manniskorna-i-sverige/utlandska-medborgare-i-sverige/

There are an estimated 50,000+ unauthorized migrants in Sweden.

What is the product of 50,000 * 64,000? Do you think it is an inconsequential number?

Now, you are the one who says there is no financial burden. Fine. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Are you incapable of reading and basic comprehension?
I had no need to do any math as I have not made any statement or asked any question about the cost of Sweden's healthcare.

I simple stated that I have not read anywhere in the article that the people were any burden on the Swedes. I asked why you assumed that they are a burden. Maybe you could show me where the article states that they are a burden.

You then ask me

22 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

Now, you are the one who says there is no financial burden. Fine. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Nowhere did I say that there is no financial burden. I did not arrive at any conclusion regarding that. I simply stated that i had not read that they were a financial burden. I did, however, wonder how you reached the conclusion that they are a financial burden even though nothing was written in the article to that effect.

Patong2021 Diamond Member

Patong2021

Advanced Member
5 hours ago, Geoff914 said:

Why are you blaming Farage for this. It was Johnson that took the UK out of the EU

A majority of UK voters chose the option of leaving. Blaming a specific politician or politicians is unreasonable since the votrs chose.

Parsve Advanced Member

Parsve

Advanced Member
18 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

that all Swedish healthcare associations, as well as municipal and county council associations, say that in healthcare we are already severely understaffed and you are threatening to expel 1/3 of our staff! You are threatening Swedish welfare

10 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

This is not about unauthorized personnel. Migrants are not used for professional healthcare services. The proponents of open borders who bring up foreign healthworkers, like to focus on professional personnel, but they are neither at risk of removal, nor the majority of foreign national healthcare workers. The vast majority of foreign national workers are used for unskilled and general labour activities such as kitchen workers, cleaners, orderlies and attendants. These jobs had high turnover and staffing shortages became acute when Covid was underway. Refugee claimants were sent to fill these jobs. Screening, background checks and training was intentionally skipped or overlooked just so long as bodies could be sent to facilities.

The physical and sexual assaults on patients are real. It was not just Sweden. It was any country who took in migrants and sent them to senior care facilities and hospitals. The incidents are significantly under reported because it would require the facilities taking responsibility for the incidents. No government, whether it is in Sweden or Canada or Germany or Australia or the UK etc. wants to take responsibility for this serious problem. Ask the family members who raised the issue of physical abuse and neglect. Their concerns were dismissed. The worker unions certainly did their utmost to silence the issue using racial prejudice to distract from worker misconduct.

Prior to Covid, Sweden had an estimated patient abuse rate of "one in five female patients and one in ten male patients "

That's not me making up the data, but is taken from Toward an Understanding of Abuse in Health Care: A Female Patient Perspective, Brüggemann, A. Jelmer, Linköping University, Department of Clinical and Experimental Medicine, Gender and medicine. Linköping University, Faculty of Health Sciences.

Abuse has a broad definition and the direct physical and verbal abuse and neglect by general workers is a distinct sub-category. There may not be thousands of incidents, but they occur.

You must excuse me, but I have a little difficulty understanding your reasoning. I asked you to explain how it came about that your opinion regarding the need for immigration in Sweden to maintain, for example, the capacity of healthcare differed from that of all Swedish healthcare organizations, as well as municipal and county council organizations (the latter two are responsible for the elderly and healthcare in Sweden) - and you said that was false.

In your last answer you wrote that it was not about unauthorized personnel or immigrants working in healthcare facilities. Then I do not understand what your statement has to do with the matter. You also mention Covid 19 and refer to an article

Let me put it all in reverse chronological order.

2026

The Swedish government decides to withdraw all permanent residence permits.

2026

All Swedish healthcare associations, as well as municipal and county council associations, say that in healthcare we are already severely understaffed and you are threatening to expel 1/3 of our employed staff.

2019 – 2023

According to the Public Health Agency, this is the period during which Covid 19 lasted in Sweden. I don’t know if immigrants were employed for healthcare or care during this period, but generally speaking, a minimum of Swedish training as a registered nurse is required to work in Swedish healthcare.

2015 – 2016

During these two years, the largest refugee flows to Sweden took place.

2012

The article you refer to, Abuse in health care: a concept analysis, is published. It says the following in its conclusion. “Abuse in health care covers a phenomenon that has severe consequences, but is invisible if seen from a medical error or patient satisfaction perspective.” It does not mention immigrants, either as caregivers or care recipients. It does mention a case that could possibly be seen as a case of unauthorized personnel, but in positive terms. ”female homosexual patient (translated from Swedish) “There was an auxiliary nurse that came in and immediately understood who I was and treated us as a couple from the first moment… and it felt really comforting that there was someone who saw me and understood us… she grasped us directly.”

Regarding the article, it tells me, based on how the authors present themselves and the format of the article, that it is a student essay. (I have been a student, as well as a researcher and teacher at Linköping University and a researcher at Politico de Milano in Italy).

In summary, I have nothing against discussing, but then the arguments should stay on topic and not drift into irrelevant areas. That concludes this discussion for

Geoff914 Gold Member

Geoff914

Advanced Member
6 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

A majority of UK voters chose the option of leaving. Blaming a specific politician or politicians is unreasonable since the votrs chose.

When were the electorate pushing for a referendum? This was Cameron caving in to the right wing of the Tory party threatening to defect to UKIP.

Don't blame the voters as it wasn't them that demanded the referendum. That dumb stupid Cameron gave people the vote that they weren't asking for then you blame them for voting. Yes it is 100% Cameron's fault.

DonniePeverley Platinum Member

DonniePeverley

Advanced Member
18 hours ago, Geoff914 said:

Why are you blaming Farage for this. It was Johnson that took the UK out of the EU

Farage was one of the architects of Brexit. He was a huge figure in the debate. His whole 'Turkey will be joining the EU' was a massive nonsensical lie, amongst others.

Now he is asking the public to trust him again.

Geoff914 Gold Member

Geoff914

Advanced Member
4 hours ago, DonniePeverley said:

Farage was one of the architects of Brexit. He was a huge figure in the debate. His whole 'Turkey will be joining the EU' was a massive nonsensical lie, amongst others.

Now he is asking the public to trust him again.

How can he have been an architect of Brexit. He wasn't part of the Government, he wasn't even an MP then only an MEP. Parliament was supposed to be running Brexit not the unelected. There is one person responsible for Brexit, Cameron. He didn't need to call a referendum, his re-negotiation was a farce. Where was he during the Brexit negotiation? He buggered off

RayC Ruby Member

RayC

Advanced Member
On 8/20/2026 at 4:44 AM, Patong2021 said:

You dismiss the burden of unauthorized migrants in Sweden as absolute nonsense for the simple reason that it is contrary to your opinion. Had you looked at the data you would have have understood the financial burden carried by the Swedish nation.

I'm dismissing nothing. Illegal immigration does place a financial burden on all 'host' states. Sweden is different.

The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants are either refugees or economic migrants; very few are 'medical services' migrants. If Sweden decides that individuals are not fleeing persecution, war, etc and are therefore not refugees but economic migrants then they are justified in denying such individuals residency.

However, I would contend that the likes of Joyce Thomas are among the small number of individuals who do not fall into either category and could therefore be treated differently.

On 8/20/2026 at 4:44 AM, Patong2021 said:

One person claimed there were human rights violated because of Sweden's intent to enforce its immigration law. Well, there would be if your deficient reasoning was applied. If Sweden, in the absence of a treaty or other legal obligation, carved out exceptions on the sole basis of nationality or age or health condition, then Sweden would be engaged in a discrimnatory action. The law does not allow for carve outs or for it to be "bent" as you demand and the courts have held that immigration law must apply equally for all age groups and all national origins. "Bending" law is a subjective act and allows for impropriety and violates the underlying reqirement of equal treatment before the courts.

There are an estimated 50,000+ unauthorized migrants in Sweden. According to Eurostat, an average of 600 UK nationals have been removed each year from Sweden. In 2019, there were an estimated 30,000+ UK nationals living in Sweden. Most of the UK nationals managed to keep themselves compliant. The 600 who did not, were removed.

Nothing is stopping a person's family from filing the appropriate paperwork and applying for admission to Sweden for humanitarian or charitable reasons. The applicant will be treated like any other person asking for preferred humanitarian admission.

I don't think that anyone here is trying to underplay the problem of illegal immigration as you imply.

'Bending the law' was an inappropriate phrase to use. However, the law can be interpreted in different ways. The Swedish courts, to date, have adopted a strict interpretation of the laws in question but Thomas' lawyers have appealed her case and escalated it to a higher court.

In any event, the Swedish government are obviously aware of the negative publicity generated by these types of cases and have indicated that there may be a change to the laws governing British nationals and late submissions under the Brexit Agreement. Imo this is going too far. but if it helps the likes of Thomas then I'm pleased.

JonnyF Star Member

JonnyF

Advanced Member
3 minutes ago, RayC said:

I don't think that anyone here is trying to underplay the problem of illegal immigration as you imply.

You are. Clearly.

Careful out there Ray. Its not just women at risk its male pensioners like yourself. Don't go showing too much leg on the way to the shops you might be asking for it. Even in London the city you claim is perfectly safe 😃

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/migrant-raped-male-pensioner-after-37558912

Screenshot_20260822_214157_Chrome.jpg

RayC Ruby Member

RayC

Advanced Member
46 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You are. Clearly.

Really? Care to point out where? No thought not.

46 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Careful out there Ray. Its not just women at risk its male pensioners like yourself. Don't go showing too much leg on the way to the shops you might be asking for it. Even in London the city you claim is perfectly safe 😃

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/migrant-raped-male-pensioner-after-37558912

Screenshot_20260822_214157_Chrome.jpg

Well I am (still) extremely handsome and have to disappoint many admirers. Nevertheless, I'm touched by your concern.

Good to know that you have got your finger on the local Londo pulse from 7000 miles away. All +/-9m of us Londoners will sleep that much easier tonight knowing that you have got our backs covered.

Geoff914 Gold Member

Geoff914

Advanced Member

Well everybody is safe from rape now as illegal migrants are getting a book telling them rape is illegal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ceqe3y34e9eo

Does it also say that murder is illegal? Should they really need a book to tell them that rape is against the law?

RayC Ruby Member

RayC

Advanced Member
On 8/21/2026 at 11:10 AM, Geoff914 said:

When were the electorate pushing for a referendum? This was Cameron caving in to the right wing of the Tory party threatening to defect to UKIP.

Don't blame the voters as it wasn't them that demanded the referendum. That dumb stupid Cameron gave people the vote that they weren't asking for then you blame them for voting. Yes it is 100% Cameron's fault.

On 8/21/2026 at 10:43 PM, Geoff914 said:

How can he have been an architect of Brexit. He wasn't part of the Government, he wasn't even an MP then only an MEP. Parliament was supposed to be running Brexit not the unelected. There is one person responsible for Brexit, Cameron. He didn't need to call a referendum, his re-negotiation was a farce. Where was he during the Brexit negotiation? He buggered off

I'd agree more than disagree.

Imo you are absolutely correct in stating that the referendum represented " ... Cameron caving in to the right wing of the Tory party threatening to defect to UKIP", however, I don't think that the importance of Farage in the 2000s can be dismissed quite so easily.

While it's true that membership of the EU was fairly low down on the electorate's priority list, nevertheless Farage was almost single-handedly responsible for supplying the content for the right-wing press' anti-EU copy, and keeping the issue of Brexit at least in the corner of the British public's eye during that time.

JonnyF Star Member

JonnyF

Advanced Member
13 hours ago, RayC said:

Really? Care to point out where? No thought not.

Well I am (still) extremely handsome and have to disappoint many admirers. Nevertheless, I'm touched by your concern.

Good to know that you have got your finger on the local Londo pulse from 7000 miles away. All +/-9m of us Londoners will sleep that much easier tonight knowing that you have got our backs covered.

Seems i have my finger on the pulse more than you Raymond.

You didnt even know it happened despite living existing there.

Anyway. Be careful out there you might finally be in demand again. 😀

ronnie50 Platinum Member

ronnie50

Advanced Member

What sort of knuckle-dragger would call a 78 year old widower and 20 year male resident with alzheimers and parkinson's disease in full time care - 'dead beats' that should be kicked out?

RayC Ruby Member

RayC

Advanced Member
2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Seems i have my finger on the pulse more than you Raymond.

You didnt even know it happened despite living existing there.

Anyway. Be careful out there you might finally be in demand again. 😀

One terrible event concerning a pensioner means that all 1m pensioners living in London should bolt their doors and never leave their flats/ houses again! Don't feel like you have to continually prove that you are not blessed with a rational mind, Jonathan.

You're an outsider looking in. You have no more knowledge of London or the wider UK today than a Thai fellow from Issan who has never left his village.

nauseus Star Member

nauseus

Advanced Member
On 8/19/2026 at 10:17 PM, Patong2021 said:

The claim of the importance of the unauthorized migrants in the health care system is a falsehood. it is not just Sweden, but other countries as well. These people are not health professionals. They are almost all general labour and can be replaced with legal authorized foreign workers. Not mentioned is the higher rate of crime associated with the workers. These crimes involve sexual assault and physical abuse of patients as well as petty theft. The proponents of the myth never mention that these workers were often hired without background checks, screening and minimal training or supervision.

So many workers there. Bahaha.

nauseus Star Member

nauseus

Advanced Member
(edited)
On 8/22/2026 at 3:43 AM, Geoff914 said:

How can he have been an architect of Brexit. He wasn't part of the Government, he wasn't even an MP then only an MEP. Parliament was supposed to be running Brexit not the unelected. There is one person responsible for Brexit, Cameron. He didn't need to call a referendum, his re-negotiation was a farce. Where was he during the Brexit negotiation? He buggered off

True but he did have a lot to do with it. The Brexit campaign was not limited to the HOC and Lords. Several other parties actively participated. There were fewer high profile political "architects" in favour of leaving, than there were for remaining. However, there were millions of people hoping for Brexit - let's call them builders mates - about 17.2 million if I recall.

Farage was an MEP for two decades and was consistent with his criticism of the EU, especially its control over many aspects of British sovereignty. His UKIP and EU positions certainly enabled some influence inside British politics. The threat of a rising UKIP seemed to rattle Cameron enough to include a pledge of a referendum on the UK's EU membership within the Conservative GE manifesto for 2015. Cameron won a single party majority on the back of that and the referendum was held in 2016 - we all know the result - Captain Cameron then abruptly abandoned the ship that he felt he should not be the one to steer. Pathetic "leaders" we have don't we? Cameron's pre referendum negotiations were hopeless but we all know now, after the useless withdrawal talks, that taking anything reasonably sensible and mutually beneficial out of the EU is nigh on impossible.

Edited by nauseus

RayC Ruby Member

RayC

Advanced Member
2 hours ago, nauseus said:

True but he did have a lot to do with it. The Brexit campaign was not limited to the HOC and Lords. Several other parties actively participated. There were fewer high profile political "architects" in favour of leaving, than there were for remaining. However, there were millions of people hoping for Brexit - let's call them builders mates - about 17.2 million if I recall.

Farage was an MEP for two decades and was consistent with his criticism of the EU, especially its control over many aspects of British sovereignty. His UKIP and EU positions certainly enabled some influence inside British politics. The threat of a rising UKIP seemed to rattle Cameron enough to include a pledge of a referendum on the UK's EU membership within the Conservative GE manifesto for 2015. Cameron won a single party majority on the back of that and the referendum was held in 2016 - we all know the result - Captain Cameron then abruptly abandoned the ship that he felt he should not be the one to steer. Pathetic "leaders" we have don't we? Cameron's pre referendum negotiations were hopeless but we all know now, after the useless withdrawal talks, that taking anything reasonably sensible and mutually beneficial out of the EU is nigh on impossible.

Cameron's 2015 election win had very little to do with his manifesto promise to hold a Brexit referendum and almost everything to do with the opposition and circumstance.

Cameron was up against Miliband and Clegg. The former was viewed by the electorate as being too radical and was anything but a polished public performer. Clegg had become almost indistinguishable from Cameron; therefore 1) Tories and undecideds voted for the real thing rather than the clone and 2) traditional Liberals/ LibDems were so completely disenchanted with Clegg that they didn't vote or switched allegiance to the Tories. Throw in the fact that Cameron appeared personable, was a very polished political and public performer , and the eventual outcome shouldn't have been that much of a surprise. Imo the Tories would have won a majority without promising a referendum. The decision to do so obviously ultimately cost Cameron his premiership and the country much more.

The idea that the UK having access to the Single Market (while not allowing the free movement of EU nationals into the UK); remaining in the EU Customs Union (while at the same time being allowed to negotiate bilateral trade deals) and at the same time not being obliged to either 1) pay into the EU budget or 2) adopt EU regulation was not considered to be beneficial to the EU by the Commission. This unsurprising news seemed to come as shock to the UK government as - which quickly became apparent - there was no 'Plan B'. The idea that the EU were willing to consider any proposal that the UK put forward (Norway model, Canada+, EEA, etc) BUT that it would come at a price was met by mute horror by the UK side.

And so we ended up where we did and - despite a few improvements negotiated by Sunak and Starmer - pretty much where we still are. A poor deal dictated by the EU and where any subsequent and significant improvement to will come with a much larger price tag than if we had remained as part of the bloc. Oh, those sunny uplands!

As Barnier said, "There are no winners with Brexit", however, we were lucky that 'they need us more than we need them'🤦(sarcasm in case anyone had any doubts).

Patong2021 Diamond Member

Patong2021

Advanced Member

So now, the issue has become an opportunity to wage the battle of the UK's leaving the EU again. Fine.

The fact is that much of the current problems the UK is facing with Brexit is due to petty vindictiveness by EU members like France and Belgium, The migrant crisis in the UK is due in large part because of France aiding and encouraging the migrants. Some Europeans are so intent on "teaching" the UK a lesson that they have become blinded by their pettiness. The UK will eventually get through the implementation problems of Brexit and a the short term costs will start to be adjusted by the long term gains that are gradually occurring. Yes, Brexit means that some elderly UK pensioners in Sweden may have to leave Sweden because they did not fill out their paperwork. Well, they can file the paperwork and make a request to stay. Europeans are being asked to leave the UK too.

RayC Ruby Member

RayC

Advanced Member
3 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

So now, the issue has become an opportunity to wage the battle of the UK's leaving the EU again. Fine.

The fact is that much of the current problems the UK is facing with Brexit is due to petty vindictiveness by EU members like France and Belgium, The migrant crisis in the UK is due in large part because of France aiding and encouraging the migrants. Some Europeans are so intent on "teaching" the UK a lesson that they have become blinded by their pettiness. The UK will eventually get through the implementation problems of Brexit and a the short term costs will start to be adjusted by the long term gains that are gradually occurring. Yes, Brexit means that some elderly UK pensioners in Sweden may have to leave Sweden because they did not fill out their paperwork. Well, they can file the paperwork and make a request to stay. Europeans are being asked to leave the UK too.

Any problems which the UK faces as a result of Brexit are self-inflicted. Firstly, to state the blatantly obvious, if the UK hadn't left the bloc then no such problems would have occured. Secondly, the UK was asked continually and continuously what sort of deal it wanted and no clear answer was forthcoming, so we ended up with Johnson's rushed minimalist job. That is hardly vindictiveness on the part of the EU. (There may, of course, be problems being a member of the EU, but they pale into insignificance compared with the problems caused by leaving the bloc).

France - or any other EU country for that matter - is not aiding the flow of illegal immigrants. Most EU nations have their own domestic problems with illegal immigration and estimates suggest that the problem is bigger in France than it is in the UK.

What are these long-term Brexit gains that are starting to appear?

Geoff914 Gold Member

Geoff914

Advanced Member
13 minutes ago, RayC said:

Any problems which the UK faces as a result of Brexit are self-inflicted. Firstly, to state the blatantly obvious, if the UK hadn't left the bloc then no such problems would have occured. Secondly, the UK was asked continually and continuously what sort of deal it wanted and no clear answer was forthcoming, so we ended up with Johnson's rushed minimalist job. That is hardly vindictiveness on the part of the EU. (There may, of course, be problems being a member of the EU, but they pale into insignificance compared with the problems caused by leaving the bloc).

France - or any other EU country for that matter - is not aiding the flow of illegal immigrants. Most EU nations have their own domestic problems with illegal immigration and estimates suggest that the problem is bigger in France than it is in the UK.

What are these long-term Brexit gains that are starting to appear?

It is now 10 years since the referendum. Isn't it about time that the remoaners got over it? Not what I wanted or expected but I don't see the point of the endless recriminations. Point of fact the general population were not calling for a referendum, it was only the lunatic fringe of the Tory party. So having got the referendum that they didn't need to call the Tory Government failed completely to make the case to remain. Another fact, it was the the EU hating Tories that took us into the EEC as it was then and it was Labour that was dead against it. Ironic that the party that hated the EU was the party that took the UK into the EEC.

RayC Ruby Member

RayC

Advanced Member
26 minutes ago, Geoff914 said:

It is now 10 years since the referendum. Isn't it about time that the remoaners got over it? Not what I wanted or expected but I don't see the point of the endless recriminations. Point of fact the general population were not calling for a referendum, it was only the lunatic fringe of the Tory party. So having got the referendum that they didn't need to call the Tory Government failed completely to make the case to remain. Another fact, it was the the EU hating Tories that took us into the EEC as it was then and it was Labour that was dead against it. Ironic that the party that hated the EU was the party that took the UK into the EEC.

Why should we who didn't want to leave, and were negatively effected by it, simply 'get over Brexit' and ignore and passively accept the negative consequences of it?

As you say, it is 10 years since we voted to leave and 6.5 years since we formally left. If there were any significant benefits to Brexit they should at least be making themselves known by now.

ezzra Star Member

ezzra

Advanced Member

No issues it seems in letting in hundreds of thousand of muslims, many from places war in the middle east who no doubt come to establish radical arms and bases in Sweden and other scandinavian countries.

Geoff914 Gold Member

Geoff914

Advanced Member
1 hour ago, RayC said:

Why should we who didn't want to leave, and were negatively effected by it, simply 'get over Brexit' and ignore and passively accept the negative consequences of it?

Well it is going to be a long time before we have a Government interested in promoting re-joining the EU. And to be in power long enough to carry it through. The LDs are the only party committed to re-joining and hell will freeze over before the LDs form a Government. So you we had all better get used to it.

JonnyF Star Member

JonnyF

Advanced Member
17 hours ago, RayC said:

One terrible event concerning a pensioner means that all 1m pensioners living in London should bolt their doors and never leave their flats/ houses again! Don't feel like you have to continually prove that you are not blessed with a rational mind, Jonathan.

You're an outsider looking in. You have no more knowledge of London or the wider UK today than a Thai fellow from Issan who has never left his village.

It's not one incident though is it.

The rape gangs have been operating for decades, covered up by Labour and a racist police force.

Patong2021 Diamond Member

Patong2021

Advanced Member
8 hours ago, RayC said:

Any problems which the UK faces as a result of Brexit are self-inflicted. Firstly, to state the blatantly obvious, if the UK hadn't left the bloc then no such problems would have occured. Secondly, the UK was asked continually and continuously what sort of deal it wanted and no clear answer was forthcoming, so we ended up with Johnson's rushed minimalist job. That is hardly vindictiveness on the part of the EU. (There may, of course, be problems being a member of the EU, but they pale into insignificance compared with the problems caused by leaving the bloc).

France - or any other EU country for that matter - is not aiding the flow of illegal immigrants. Most EU nations have their own domestic problems with illegal immigration and estimates suggest that the problem is bigger in France than it is in the UK.

What are these long-term Brexit gains that are starting to appear?

How are you able to deny that France is not dumping migrants on the UK by enabling their transit at the ports and across the Channel? Is this a joke for you?

The UK has regained its sovereignty and no longer has to clear its laws with the EU regualtory bodies. It is free to set its own foreign policy too. The BBC has stated that the UK saves £9 billion annually now that it is not forced to support Romania, Hungary, Greece, Poland and others.

RayC Ruby Member

RayC

Advanced Member
6 hours ago, Geoff914 said:

Well it is going to be a long time before we have a Government interested in promoting re-joining the EU. And to be in power long enough to carry it through. The LDs are the only party committed to re-joining and hell will freeze over before the LDs form a Government. So you we had all better get used to it.

Once again I ( unfortunately) largely agree with you.

However, there is no reason why the government should not try to limit the damage caused by Brexit. Rejoining the Erasmus+ scheme is positive and introducing a young person's employment scheme would be another step in the right direction.

nauseus Star Member

nauseus

Advanced Member
18 hours ago, RayC said:

Cameron's 2015 election win had very little to do with his manifesto promise to hold a Brexit referendum and almost everything to do with the opposition and circumstance.

Cameron was up against Miliband and Clegg. The former was viewed by the electorate as being too radical and was anything but a polished public performer. Clegg had become almost indistinguishable from Cameron; therefore 1) Tories and undecideds voted for the real thing rather than the clone and 2) traditional Liberals/ LibDems were so completely disenchanted with Clegg that they didn't vote or switched allegiance to the Tories. Throw in the fact that Cameron appeared personable, was a very polished political and public performer , and the eventual outcome shouldn't have been that much of a surprise. Imo the Tories would have won a majority without promising a referendum. The decision to do so obviously ultimately cost Cameron his premiership and the country much more.

The idea that the UK having access to the Single Market (while not allowing the free movement of EU nationals into the UK); remaining in the EU Customs Union (while at the same time being allowed to negotiate bilateral trade deals) and at the same time not being obliged to either 1) pay into the EU budget or 2) adopt EU regulation was not considered to be beneficial to the EU by the Commission. This unsurprising news seemed to come as shock to the UK government as - which quickly became apparent - there was no 'Plan B'. The idea that the EU were willing to consider any proposal that the UK put forward (Norway model, Canada+, EEA, etc) BUT that it would come at a price was met by mute horror by the UK side.

And so we ended up where we did and - despite a few improvements negotiated by Sunak and Starmer - pretty much where we still are. A poor deal dictated by the EU and where any subsequent and significant improvement to will come with a much larger price tag than if we had remained as part of the bloc. Oh, those sunny uplands!

As Barnier said, "There are no winners with Brexit", however, we were lucky that 'they need us more than we need them'🤦(sarcasm in case anyone had any doubts).

I don't think I've ever seen anyone try and spin Brexit quite like that. Top marks for imagination.

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