Ukraine’s Fatal Miscalculation: Zelensky Believes He Can Handle What Comes After Oreshnik and Kedr?

8 minutes ago, Hakuna Matata said:

Ukraine’s Fatal Miscalculation: Zelensky Believes He Can Handle What Comes After Oreshnik and Kedr?

Garbage PRO KREMLIN propaganda source.

www.christianbaghai.medium.com/the-hindustan-times-and-the-russian-aggression-45b300df07ae

The Hindustan Times’s framing of Russia’s actions in Ukraine, at times, paints a picture that appears sympathetic to Putin’s narrative. Headlines that mirror the Russian President’s rhetoric about the West’s exploitation are potent examples. They resonate with a segment of Indian society that remains wary of Western intentions, given the historical context of colonialism. This narrative plays well within the framework of post-colonial discourse that still profoundly influences Indian politics and public sentiment.

Conversely, the relatively muted response to the humanitarian impact of the Ukrainian conflict is troubling. The lack of emphasis on civilian suffering and the international outcry against Russia’s actions raises questions. Is this an editorial choice driven by pragmatism, given India’s strategic and economic ties with Russia? Or is it a concerning oversight that underplays the gravity of the crisis?

The general is absolutely right. The tide has completely turned, and Putin is scared to death by his own people, even his closest. Many of them are now under surveillance, and even use of internet is forbidden for his closest employees.

This looks very much like Putin's last grasp of desperation. The Russians are hitting civilian targets desperately in a larger scale now, because they are losing on the ground, losing the drone war, and losing way too much personell and equipment, and more importantly, Ukraine is the country gaining most land the last 3 months.

In addition, Ukraine has hit Russian gas and oil refineries so hard lately, that Crimea is in fact not selling gasoline anymore. Ukraine has put a stop to that, by cutting off any supplies, by taking out every incoming truck with gasoline before they arrive.

Ukraine's own new Flamingo missiles can now reach 3000 km, and has been tested and used recently, with 100% success.

Their other drones are passing through Russia's defence on a daily basis. They're not able to protect their own refineries, or anything else.

All this in contrary to what was claimed recently by you-know-who in threads about the Ukraine war.

Ukraine will win this war, unless Putin can make a deal in the near future, and either withdraw, or living with much less than they claimed a while ago.

Ukraine does certainly have the upper hand now. It is even admitted by Russian war bloggers, who are furious. Facts (I do read Russian).

If you believe what that general is saying, I have a bridge to sell

33 minutes ago, Garouda said:

If you believe what that general is saying, I have a bridge to sell

If you are referring to the Kerch and Chonhar bridges - good luck. They will soon be at the bottom of the Black Sea.

Explosion Destroys Key Structure on Kerch Bridge Linking Crimea and Russia - Australia Times

Perhaps Putin will use a submarine to inspect them and the Black Sea fleet?

1 hour ago, Garouda said:

If you believe what that general is saying, I have a bridge to sell

I couldn't care less of what this general says. Or you. I'm all in for facts, by following this war closely.

And the general is not wrong.

1 hour ago, Garouda said:

If you believe what that general is saying, I have a bridge to sell

The Kirch bridge, Boris?

I certainly hope it’s true and this brave nation survives this war of aggression and emerges victorious surviving and thriving.A victory for the good causes is sorely needed in these times of disfunction and chaos in my view.I also would be delighted to see Russia evolve into a stable democracy and join the world in trading freely with the world…they have a lot to offer……guess I’m just a wishful dreamer ehh…anyway that being said Salva Ukraine you brave heroic nation !!I cannot imagine what you are going through defending your nation.

What should have been a tragic, local war was inflated into a grand moral crusade. Years later, Europe is poorer, Russia is more dangerous, Ukraine lies shattered, and millions are dead, wounded, displaced or bereaved. The promises of victory now echo across graveyards and ruins. A generation has been consumed by a war that neither side could decisively win.

Shame on those who launched it, and shame on those who prolonged it. Yet for many in the West, support for the war required little more than a flag emoji, a slogan, and the comforting certainty of being on the right side of history. While they collected social approval and moral self-satisfaction, others paid the real cost: their limbs, their homes, their futures, and their lives. History may yet conclude that the easiest sacrifice made during this war was someone else's.

https://archive.ph/lD2pL

Ukraine’s military losses remain a closely guarded military secret. But what is no secret to Ukrainian men of military age is that the state’s recruiting officers will stop at nothing to press-gang new recruits. Videos posted on Ukrainian social media daily show vans of officers grabbing men from the counters of fast-food outlets, from inside factories and in parks while they are walking their dogs. Often these operations involve desperate fights, with passers-by frequently intervening to attack the would-be recruiters. Forced recruitment – known as ‘busification’ – has become a major source of discontent, especially as evidence emerges of large-scale, systematic extortion of cash in exchange for release back into civilian society, often after brutal beatings.

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

What should have been a tragic, local war was inflated into a grand moral crusade. Years later, Europe is poorer, Russia is more dangerous, Ukraine lies shattered, and millions are dead, wounded, displaced or bereaved. The promises of victory now echo across graveyards and ruins. A generation has been consumed by a war that neither side could decisively win.

Shame on those who launched it, and shame on those who prolonged it. Yet for many in the West, support for the war required little more than a flag emoji, a slogan, and the comforting certainty of being on the right side of history. While they collected social approval and moral self-satisfaction, others paid the real cost: their limbs, their homes, their futures, and their lives. History may yet conclude that the easiest sacrifice made during this war was someone else's.

https://archive.ph/lD2pL

Ukraine’s military losses remain a closely guarded military secret. But what is no secret to Ukrainian men of military age is that the state’s recruiting officers will stop at nothing to press-gang new recruits. Videos posted on Ukrainian social media daily show vans of officers grabbing men from the counters of fast-food outlets, from inside factories and in parks while they are walking their dogs. Often these operations involve desperate fights, with passers-by frequently intervening to attack the would-be recruiters. Forced recruitment – known as ‘busification’ – has become a major source of discontent, especially as evidence emerges of large-scale, systematic extortion of cash in exchange for release back into civilian society, often after brutal beatings.

So in your view, the West should have let Russia roll over Ukraine.

14 minutes ago, TedG said:

So in your view, the West should have let Russia roll over Ukraine.

Sadly yes let dirty water find it's own level. It's not our fight from a British point of view not at the costs we have incurred and moreover inflicted on both Russia and Ukraine. The greatest tragedy of Ukraine was to have a charismatic actor and comedian rather than moustachioed anonymous Belarusian type leader who realised that bowing the knee to the Czar was wise counsel. No one has won anything here.

The UK government says it has committed up to £21.8 billion in support for Ukraine since the invasion began. That includes military aid, financial support, guarantees and reconstruction-related commitments. Unfreezing UK pensions globally would be around £1 billion a year - do the math.

Thailand nails it's flag to the mast - there’s no such thing as dirty money there just money.

Sooner or later the good people of Russia will wake up and hang Putin from a lamppost in Moscow, and he knows it. Then and only then there can be peace.

29 minutes ago, Caldera said:

Sooner or later the good people of Russia will wake up and hang Putin from a lamppost in Moscow, and he knows it. Then and only then there can be peace.

That's not how it works generally, besides which if he falls then there are worse actors waiting in the wings. Stalin died of natural causes as will Putin that's just the way it is.

4 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

What should have been a tragic, local war was inflated into a grand moral crusade. Years later, Europe is poorer, Russia is more dangerous, Ukraine lies shattered, and millions are dead, wounded, displaced or bereaved. The promises of victory now echo across graveyards and ruins. A generation has been consumed by a war that neither side could decisively win.

Shame on those who launched it, and shame on those who prolonged it. Yet for many in the West, support for the war required little more than a flag emoji, a slogan, and the comforting certainty of being on the right side of history. While they collected social approval and moral self-satisfaction, others paid the real cost: their limbs, their homes, their futures, and their lives. History may yet conclude that the easiest sacrifice made during this war was someone else's.

https://archive.ph/lD2pL

Ukraine’s military losses remain a closely guarded military secret. But what is no secret to Ukrainian men of military age is that the state’s recruiting officers will stop at nothing to press-gang new recruits. Videos posted on Ukrainian social media daily show vans of officers grabbing men from the counters of fast-food outlets, from inside factories and in parks while they are walking their dogs. Often these operations involve desperate fights, with passers-by frequently intervening to attack the would-be recruiters. Forced recruitment – known as ‘busification’ – has become a major source of discontent, especially as evidence emerges of large-scale, systematic extortion of cash in exchange for release back into civilian society, often after brutal beatings.

Also called press-gang or dragoon. Never heard of busification before. There are no winners in wars and, no matter what happens next, Ukraine will have to be rebuilt. What a senseless tragedy.

Like I said, there's a lot we aren't being told. A Jewish president commemorating the reburial of a controversial nationalist figure associated with wartime Nazi collaboration is the sort of thing that would have been dismissed as propaganda a few years ago. Once again, it reinforces my view that we should have stayed well out of this swamp of history. The further you dig, the less clear-cut the story becomes. Let that sink in laying flowers at the grave of oner of the architects of the Holocaust in Ukraine.

https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/prezident-uzyav-uchast-u-ceremoniyi-perepohovannya-andriya-m-104577?utm_source=chatgpt.com

President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy took part in the reburial ceremony at the National Military Memorial Cemetery of Colonel of the Ukrainian People’s Republic Army and Head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Andriy Melnyk, and his wife Sofia Fedak-Melnyk.

The ceremony was also attended by the Third President of Ukraine, Viktor Yushchenko, Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine Ruslan Stefanchuk, Prime Minister Yuliia Svyrydenko, Head of the Office of the President Kyrylo Budanov, Minister of Foreign Affairs Andrii Sybiha, Minister for Veterans Affairs Nataliia Kalmykova, members of parliament, service members, and representatives of civil society.

“Now, when we are on Ukrainian soil, under our Ukrainian flag, to the sound of our Ukrainian national song, paying tribute to our Ukrainian heroes, we feel in our hearts everything through which Ukrainians have been forced to pass, everything our people have had to endure,” the Head of State said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Melnyk_(officer)

The OUN-M formed the Bukovinian Battalion under the Abewehr in August which, alongside OUN-M members in the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police, would go on to support the implementation of The Holocaust in Ukraine— Melnyk's own reaction and role in this has received very little attention from scholars.[118][119][120][121] According to the historian Yuri Radchenko, Melnyk had a "more or less clear picture of what was happening in Ukraine".[122] The OUN-M's press organs in German-occupied Ukraine published antisemitic propaganda throughout the early 1940s. Radchenko argues that such material could not have been disseminated without Melnyk's knowledge or approval.

17 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Like I said, there's a lot we aren't being told. A Jewish president commemorating the reburial of a controversial nationalist figure associated with wartime Nazi collaboration is the sort of thing that would have been dismissed as propaganda a few years ago. Once again, it reinforces my view that we should have stayed well out of this swamp of history. The further you dig, the less clear-cut the story becomes. Let that sink in laying flowers at the grave of oner of the architects of the Holocaust in Ukraine.

https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/prezident-uzyav-uchast-u-ceremoniyi-perepohovannya-andriya-m-104577?utm_source=chatgpt.com

President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy took part in the reburial ceremony at the National Military Memorial Cemetery of Colonel of the Ukrainian People’s Republic Army and Head of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Andriy Melnyk, and his wife Sofia Fedak-Melnyk.

The ceremony was also attended by the Third President of Ukraine, Viktor Yushchenko, Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine Ruslan Stefanchuk, Prime Minister Yuliia Svyrydenko, Head of the Office of the President Kyrylo Budanov, Minister of Foreign Affairs Andrii Sybiha, Minister for Veterans Affairs Nataliia Kalmykova, members of parliament, service members, and representatives of civil society.

“Now, when we are on Ukrainian soil, under our Ukrainian flag, to the sound of our Ukrainian national song, paying tribute to our Ukrainian heroes, we feel in our hearts everything through which Ukrainians have been forced to pass, everything our people have had to endure,” the Head of State said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Melnyk_(officer)

The OUN-M formed the Bukovinian Battalion under the Abewehr in August which, alongside OUN-M members in the Ukrainian Auxiliary Police, would go on to support the implementation of The Holocaust in Ukraine— Melnyk's own reaction and role in this has received very little attention from scholars.[118][119][120][121] According to the historian Yuri Radchenko, Melnyk had a "more or less clear picture of what was happening in Ukraine".[122] The OUN-M's press organs in German-occupied Ukraine published antisemitic propaganda throughout the early 1940s. Radchenko argues that such material could not have been disseminated without Melnyk's knowledge or approval.

“The Ukrainian people, whose century-old struggle for freedom has scarcely been matched by any other people, espouses from the depths of its soul the ideals of the New Europe. The entire Ukrainian people yearns to take part in the realisation of these ideals. We, old fighters for freedom in 1918-1921, request that we, together with our Ukrainian youth, be permitted the honour of taking part in the crusade against Bolshevik barbarism. In twenty-one years of a defensive struggle, we have suffered bloody sacrifices, and we suffer especially at present through the frightful slaughter of so many of our compatriots. We request that we be allowed to march shoulder to shoulder with the legions of Europe and with our liberator, the German Wehrmacht, and therefore we ask to be permitted to create a Ukrainian military formation.”

That quotation is generally dated to 6 July 1941, shortly after Germany invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa.

It was part of an appeal submitted by Andriy Melnyk and other former officers of the Ukrainian National Army to Adolf Hitler, asking permission to create a Ukrainian military formation that would fight alongside Germany against the Soviet Union

11 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

“The Ukrainian people, whose century-old struggle for freedom has scarcely been matched by any other people, espouses from the depths of its soul the ideals of the New Europe. The entire Ukrainian people yearns to take part in the realisation of these ideals. We, old fighters for freedom in 1918-1921, request that we, together with our Ukrainian youth, be permitted the honour of taking part in the crusade against Bolshevik barbarism. In twenty-one years of a defensive struggle, we have suffered bloody sacrifices, and we suffer especially at present through the frightful slaughter of so many of our compatriots. We request that we be allowed to march shoulder to shoulder with the legions of Europe and with our liberator, the German Wehrmacht, and therefore we ask to be permitted to create a Ukrainian military formation.”

That quotation is generally dated to 6 July 1941, shortly after Germany invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa.

It was part of an appeal submitted by Andriy Melnyk and other former officers of the Ukrainian National Army to Adolf Hitler, asking permission to create a Ukrainian military formation that would fight alongside Germany against the Soviet Union

What is your point?

16 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

What is your point?

That this is a war we should stay well out of it's murky at best and injurious to western interests and that quite clearly Saint Vlodimir Zelensky has thrown his lot in with the far right of Ukrainian nationalists. Sorry to puncture the balloon of the moral high ground but that's the unvarnished truth. My dad who fought in WW2 would be disgusted and was a huge fan of the Soviets in WW2 they more than anybody saved our arses.

https://archive.ph/zoFs7

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-objects-to-ukrainian-reburial-with-state-honors-of-nazi-collaborator/

The Foreign Ministry expresses Israel’s objections to an official Ukrainian state reburial of a Ukrainian political and military leader who was connected to military units that collaborated with the Nazis.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky provided full state honors for the reburial ceremony.

“We regret the decision to hold an official state reburial ceremony for OUN leader Andriy Melnyk, who collaborated with the Nazis. There is no place for ignoring historical truth and the memory of the victims murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators,” the Foreign Ministry says in a statement on X.

20 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

That this is a war we should stay well out of it's murky at best and injurious to western interests and that quite clearly Saint Vlodimir Zelensky has thrown his lot in with the far right of Ukrainian nationalists. Sorry to puncture the balloon of the moral high ground but that's the unvarnished truth. My dad who fought in WW2 would be disgusted and was a huge fan of the Soviets in WW2 they more than anybody saved our arses.

https://archive.ph/zoFs7

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-objects-to-ukrainian-reburial-with-state-honors-of-nazi-collaborator/

The Foreign Ministry expresses Israel’s objections to an official Ukrainian state reburial of a Ukrainian political and military leader who was connected to military units that collaborated with the Nazis.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky provided full state honors for the reburial ceremony.

“We regret the decision to hold an official state reburial ceremony for OUN leader Andriy Melnyk, who collaborated with the Nazis. There is no place for ignoring historical truth and the memory of the victims murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators,” the Foreign Ministry says in a statement on X.

Bullshxxt. Russian propaganda.

You know that Germany today is our allies, right? What happened during ww2, or even ww1, who tf cares now!!

I can promise you that there are more "nazis" in Russia, than in Ukraine today.

I know, I was born in Russia.

Zelensky is trying to save his country from being taken over by Russia, and is doing everything to integrate into European Union and their standards. That's it. Ukraine is and will be a tremendously important ally of NATO and European Union. With or without official membership. Ukraine is on our side, for crying out loud.

So please stop. Just stop.

3 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

Bullshxxt. Russian propaganda.

You know that Germany today is our allies, right? What happened during ww2, or even ww1, who tf cares now!!

Stop. Just stop.

The New York Times, Times of Israel, President Zelensky’s own website, Yad Vashem, Israel’s Holocaust museum, and, above all, the hand of historical truth.

The Russo-Ukrainian war is a complex conflict in many ways a Slavic civil war between two peoples who share far more with one another than they do with the rest of the world. It should have been left well alone to settle its own differences.

Sorry about that. I’ll stop here if I so choose, not because you tell me to, but because I don’t consider posting online a particularly good use of my time.

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

The New York Times, Times of Israel, President Zelensky’s own website, Yad Vashem, Israel’s Holocaust museum, and, above all, the hand of historical truth.

The Russo-Ukrainian war is a complex conflict in many ways a Slavic civil war between two peoples who share far more with one another than they do with the rest of the world. It should have been left well alone to settle its own differences.

Sorry about that. I’ll stop here if I so choose, not because you tell me to, but because I don’t consider posting online a particularly good use of my time.

Bull. It's not complex at all in today's world. Russia is trying to control and take over an independent neighbor, who is doing all they can to get out of Russia's claws, and into European standards and join our EU and NATO. Ukraine is a sovereign country, Russia has no say in this.

Russia invaded Ukraine on that reason, to take over the country, and their goal is obviously to restore the old Soviet Union.

That is not acceptable in today's world. We shall be glad we, Europe, support Ukraine in this war, or else, who knows which country would be next up for grabs by Russia. Wake up.

And stop your nonsense about nazis. Russia has more nazis than Ukraine today, that's a fact. I was born in Russia.

Thank god you're not of any influence in Europe's politics in this war. We had no other choice than to stop Russian aggression towards European countries. Sweden and Finland saw what was coming, and they are today members of NATO, after applying because of Russian threats to their countries.

There is no room for aggression in Europe today. Enough is enough, and I'm really glad that statement has been made to Russia. We are protecting ourselves, and Ukrainians are fighting our first line of defense.

Everything else of your propaganda, is just noise. Germany is today our allies, just like Ukraine is.

11 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

Bull. It's not complex at all in today's world. Russia is trying to control and take over an independent neighbor, who is doing all they can to get out of Russia's claws, and into European standards and join our EU and NATO. Ukraine is a sovereign country, Russia has no say in this.

Russia invaded Ukraine on that reason, to take over the country, and their goal is obviously to restore the old Soviet Union.

That is not acceptable in today's world. We shall be glad we, Europe, support Ukraine in this war, or else, who knows which country is next up for grabs by Russia. Wake up.

Stop your nonsense about nazis. Russia has more nazis than Ukraine, that's a fact. I was born in Russia.

Thank god you're not of any influence in Europe's politics in this war. We had no other choice than to stop Russian aggression towards European countries. Sweden and Finland saw what was coming, and they are today members of NATO.

There is no room for aggression in Europe today. Enough is enough, and I'm really glad that statement has been made to Russia

My quoting has gone wrong apologies hence the formatting.

The fact that President Zelensky is Jewish is the point, and where YOU happened to be born is irrelevant to the argument.

Russia is not, and never has been, my enemy. Nor do I wish my country to spend its treasure, resources, and manpower on the assumption that it is. My concern is the welfare and interests of my own country, not the pursuit of endless foreign entanglements presented as moral crusades. You use "we" a lot I'm sure you could be of use to the Ukrainian resistance in some context flaming me here doesn’t count I'm afraid.

1 hour ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

The fact that President Zelensky is Jewish is the point, and where YOU happened to be born is irrelevant to the argument.

On the contrary. The fact that Zelensky is jewish, is irrelevant in any discussion regarding this war.

But it is indeed relevant what language I speak, read and understand, to the discussion I participate in, regarding this war. It gives me enough knowledge to understand it better.

I have Russian friends, family, who are not on Putin's side, I'll tell you that.

I read from Russian war bloggers where the frustration has reach a new level, where claims that Russia is in big trouble is crystal clear, and I read Russian news, mixed with western information here and there, to get balanced reports and not only western information.

If that is not relevant to understand this war better, nothing is.

Again, the nazi angle, is irrelevant to this war. It was just an excuse and a lie to invade Ukraine in the first place. Russia has far more "nazis" than Ukraine today.

I use "we" because it is our general policy in almost every country in Europe to support Ukraine. Fact. There are very few exceptions, which you obviously support. And that's fine, we can't all agree.

11 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

On the contrary. The fact that Zelensky is jewish, is irrelevant in any discussion regarding this war.

But it is indeed relevant what language I speak, read and understand, to the discussion I participate in, regarding this war. It gives me enough knowledge to understand it better.

I have Russian friends, family, who are not on Putin's side, I'll tell you that.

I read from Russian war bloggers where the frustration has reach a new level, where claims that Russia is in big trouble is crystal clear, and I read Russian news, mixed with western information here and there, to get balanced reports and not only western information.

If that is not relevant to understand this war better, nothing is.

Again, the nazi angle, is irrelevant to this war. It was just an excuse and a lie to invade Ukraine in the first place. Russia has far more "nazis" than Ukraine today.

If you believe supporting Russian resistance to Putin and the siloviki security state is a worthy cause, then by all means do so, and good luck to you. My objection is not that you support it, but that you expect others to pay for it.

4 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

If you believe supporting Russian resistance to Putin and the siloviki security state is a worthy cause, then by all means do so, and good luck to you. My objection is not that you support it, but that you expect others to pay for it.

I indeed expect countries and residents of Europe to pay to help Ukrainians still have a free and independent country, yes. And they do. Without our help, they wouldn't have a country left.

That is a good investment for a future safe and peaceful Europe. Well spent money imo, so our kids will have a safe place to grow up.

I'll gladly pay my taxes to that cause.

20 hours ago, Jingthing said:

This video is FOUR YEARS OLD!

Why would you post this now?

Its his job to do so. Sees a story that is a maybe a bit pro-Ukrainian. Cues up whatever random YT video that can counteract that, even if it includes low quality sources like the Hindustan Times.

8 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

I indeed expect countries and residents of Europe to pay to help Ukrainians still have a free and independent country, yes. And they do. That is a good investment for a future safe and peaceful Europe. Well spent money imo, so our kids will have a safe place to grow up.

I'll gladly pay my taxes to that cause.

Just for clarity, where exactly do you live?

I live in Europe the United Kingdom, to be precise: an island nation with an army, a nuclear deterrent, and a large and growing national debt.

I wish the world and his dog the very best. I hope for peace, prosperity, and stability for all. But charity begins at home. We cannot solve every problem on Earth, nor should we bankrupt ourselves trying.

I certainly do not want another European war, least of all one against Russia the largest country on the planet by landmass, rich in natural resources and now closely aligned with China, the world's largest manufacturing power and one of its great economic giants.

States should stay in their lane, play to their strengths, and avoid picking fights they cannot win.

Naive isolationist westerners who say Russia is not their enemy fail to understand that Russia is already at war with them and Russia's goal is not only to see NATO go away but all small l liberal democracies go away as well. Which explains why the Trumpist maga fascists support the same European parties as Russia.