Dog Virus In Pattaya?

[jeffrosner]

My neighbor says there is some dog virus going around - symptoms are vomiting for more than a day. Anyone heard of this?

[ZZZ]

My neighbor says there is some dog virus going around - symptoms are vomiting for more than a day. Anyone heard of this?

That explains it I thought it was that Mekhong I had last night

[November Rain]

If it mainly affects pups & kills virtually all of them, it's parvo virus. Parvo is a very common dog disease & completely preventable (in owned dogs at least). If you have a dog, make sure you get it a combined vaccine. These can be 5 way, 6 way or (I believe) 8 way, BambinA will be able to say for sure, ie they prevent 5, 6 or 8 diseases. Either way, these vaccines always include distemper protection & parvo virus protection. Both parvo & distemper are widespread in Thailand & both are killers. Adults can get parvo & show no symptoms, but carry the disease & give it to pups. I have just had 5 pups get parvo. All 5 died, despite medication, quarantine & IV fluids. The last died one week ago. The symptoms are vomiting & diarrhoea (often bloody diarrhoea).

Distemper is a different, very nasty disease which affects the respiratory & nervous systems & kills all ages. If anyone is reading this & has not got their dog vaccinated, please, please do. We have had outbreaks of both of these in our center & they are extremely unpleasant deaths for the dogs. If you are friendly with a soi dog, get it vaccinated too. Vaccines are about 200 baht.

[Nienke]

If it mainly affects pups & kills virtually all of them, it's parvo virus. Parvo is a very common dog disease & completely preventable (in owned dogs at least). If you have a dog, make sure you get it a combined vaccine. These can be 5 way, 6 way or (I believe) 8 way, BambinA will be able to say for sure, ie they prevent 5, 6 or 8 diseases. Either way, these vaccines always include distemper protection & parvo virus protection. Both parvo & distemper are widespread in Thailand & both are killers. Adults can get parvo & show no symptoms, but carry the disease & give it to pups. I have just had 5 pups get parvo. All 5 died, despite medication, quarantine & IV fluids. The last died one week ago. The symptoms are vomiting & diarrhoea (often bloody diarrhoea).

Distemper is a different, very nasty disease which affects the respiratory & nervous systems & kills all ages. If anyone is reading this & has not got their dog vaccinated, please, please do. We have had outbreaks of both of these in our center & they are extremely unpleasant deaths for the dogs. If you are friendly with a soi dog, get it vaccinated too. Vaccines are about 200 baht.

Yikes, November Rain, please, update your knowledge on vaccines and their (many) side-effects

Vaccines are NOT harmless. Combined vaccines have many very serious side-effects. Annual boosters aren't necessary.

Here some links to help you on the way:

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/VACCINE1.HTM

http://www.naturalrearing.com/J_In_Learnin...ATIONSPart4.htm

http://critteradvocacy.org/The%20Science%2...Been%20Done.htm

Both Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz are top-of-the-top in this field.

Sorry, if I look pedant. But I just had a case of vaccinosis in a 5-6 year old dog. He died of liver failure 1 week after receiving the combined vaccine (a horrible and highly frustrating experience). Years ago I had a 4 months old Golden retreiver pup that developed encephalitis 2 weeks after receiving its second combined vaccine (hexadog). It survived but was severely crippled for life.

At the moment I have a dog with all the behavior signs of rabies vaccine side-effects. My own GSD has skin problems since puppyhood. Very well possible a side-effect of the vaccinations he received as puppy.

So, please, look into this matery for the well-being of your dogs!

A yahoogroup email list that is highly recommendable is TruthAboutVaccines

Nienke

[November Rain]

Where in this post did I say vaccines were harmless? Where did I mention annual boosters? I am aware of the research. If you search back in this forum you will find Alex Lah raised the point & I was very interested. However, I am still researching this & meanwhile 5 of my pups have died because they had not had their initial vaccines (because they were too sick from other diseases to have them). I hope you are not suggesting we do not give inital vaccines either? I am still working through the research on yearly boosters, but having had dogs die of both distemper & parvo, I will not be convinced there is no need for the initial vaccines.

[davethailand]

I lost my 4 year old Shitzu 2 weeks ago, the wife took her to the salon for grooming, got a call at 5pm to say she's ready, call at 505pm to say she's not well, got there at 515pm and she was dead.

she was fine that morning and the salon have also looked after her everytime in the 3+ years she's gone there.

She had brown spots on her belly.

[November Rain]

I lost my 4 year old Shitzu 2 weeks ago, the wife took her to the salon for grooming, got a call at 5pm to say she's ready, call at 505pm to say she's not well, got there at 515pm and she was dead.

she was fine that morning and the salon have also looked after her everytime in the 3+ years she's gone there.

She had brown spots on her belly.

That doesn't sound the same, Dave. Were the brown spots pigmentation on her skin or something new that day? (ie allergic reaction to something or sign of infection) Had she been ill, previously (like a few days or week before)? What did the grooming parlour say had happened? Had they given her any sort of injection? Sometimes grooming parlours give injections of Ivomec to deal with parasites. I really can't think what would have happened, there. I'm so sorry that happened. What a horrible experience for your girlfriend & yourself.

[Nienke]

Where in this post did I say vaccines were harmless? Where did I mention annual boosters? I am aware of the research. If you search back in this forum you will find Alex Lah raised the point & I was very interested. However, I am still researching this & meanwhile 5 of my pups have died because they had not had their initial vaccines (because they were too sick from other diseases to have them). I hope you are not suggesting we do not give inital vaccines either? I am still working through the research on yearly boosters, but having had dogs die of both distemper & parvo, I will not be convinced there is no need for the initial vaccines.

Hi November Rain,

Sorry I've been upsetting you.

I did write in my post that I did not mean to be pedant, meaning that I did not mean ' I know it better', because I don't and I explained where I based my reaction on. I can understand your reaction on my post as well, as you obviously just went through a very hard time. And, believe me, i've been there too.

You were talking about combined vaccines and that is what I was reacting on. I did not suggest at all to not vaccinate!

I just wrote last week a mail to Dr. Dodds (she is a guest speaker on the TruthAboutVaccines email list and has done lots of research on this subject. Based on this research, veterinary universities in The States have changed their vaccine protocols). In this email I explained the situations in Thailand (streetdogs, strays, puppy farms etc. of which the majority is in some extent malnutritioned and/or carry disease) and asked her opinion about not vaccinating puppies and adult dogs (I asked it in this way as many members of that list are against vaccinations, but so far I know none of the ones of whom I've read their posts are dealing with situations such as in Thailand). And i asked her if she would suggest a different vaccine protocol for Thailand.

Her reaction was that 'given the rampant steet virus load, it would be foolish not to vaccinate companion pets', which includes all dogs. I'm not surprised about this answer, but I rather dubble check with one of the world's top immunologists once I have the chance.

In her protocol for The States she suggest not to vaccinate before the age of 8 weeks (vaccinating at an too early age can interfere with the maternal immunity and, as a result, leaving the pup unprotected). But given the situation in Thailand she said that one might start vaccinating at the age of 7 weeks and then repeat at 11 weeks and 14 weeks (vaccinating with 2 weeks in between can increase the risk on side-effects and repetition after two weeks can repress the effect of the first vaccinate, also leaving the puppy unprotected)

For adults she suggests a booster at one year and then every three years. BUT, she says, she would ONLY vaccinate for the serious infectious diseases and rabies (that are the core vaccines). She did not mention not to give combined vaccines. But for what I've read till now I think it is better for the health of the dog to give the vaccines seperate with a month in between. On the other hand, Dr. Schultz recommends parvo and canine distemper combined vaccines in one of his reports for puppies.

The situation for street and stray dogs is more complex and difficult, as often it is (very) hard to catch them or to have the owner come several times with their dog for the necessary vaccinations. But still, fact remains, vaccinating them combined vaccines or even only the rabies vaccine just after spaying or neutering (as that's, understandable, the easiest way) and/or when they carry other disease and/or are malnutritioned can make them more susceptible to adverse effects of (over)vaccinating.

My last question to her was about something a vet here in Chiang Mai once told me :

"dogs can come in contact with the viruses much easier, therefore, it is a must to vaccinate them every year" and " that the immune system of dogs here react different on the infectious diseases (because of the high risk on infection) than dogs, for example, in The States ." (during epidemics it's advised to vaccinate pups at least 3 times and rottweilers even 4 times parvo-virus, with 2 to 3 weeks in between).

Her reaction was that there should be NO difference in the immune system (surpise, surprise) and that the weakened immune sytems of 'these unforunates' (as she put it) would likely make them more, not less, susceptible to adverse effects of overvaccinating. She said, that perhaps they would tolerate better a half dose. Although, I'm not sure exactly what she meant with this last remark. Half a dose of each vaccine and then vaccinate the same vaccine several times or just only one time half a dose? And what will be the protection of a half dose?

I asked for a reaction of the other list members on my mail and Dr. Dodds answer, but unfortunately, nobody did. I also asked permission to post this particular mail elsewhere and use material of the list to give as information to others, but also here I did not receive any reply.

So, I'm still not sure what is the best option. But just to play it the safest way I suggest to my customers to seperate the vaccines (but then we are talking about pet dogs).

Also here, like what I said in another thread about spaying and neutering, I think dog owners should be well informed on the pro's and con's of vaccination. The owners of the dead and crippled dogs found out the hard way, and there is no turning back for them.

But again, I acknowledge the much more complex situation that dog rescue organisations are dealing with.

Nienke

[Nienke]

I lost my 4 year old Shitzu 2 weeks ago, the wife took her to the salon for grooming, got a call at 5pm to say she's ready, call at 505pm to say she's not well, got there at 515pm and she was dead.

she was fine that morning and the salon have also looked after her everytime in the 3+ years she's gone there.

She had brown spots on her belly.

Wow, Dave,

That's quite shocking. My sincere condolences.

Brown spots on her belly?

Could it have been something that November Rain already mentioned or maybe internal bleeding? But then, internal bleeding from what? Trauma, allergic reaction?

Did you go to the vet with her for a check up or an autopsie?

I'm really very sorry for you and your wife with this horrible loss.

Nienke

[elfe]

am very sorry to read about your horrible loss davethailand

my condolences and thoughts are for you and your dog, have a save journey little girl

that is why i never want to leave my dogs anywhere, it is always dangerous... at the vet they can get ticks (which carry bloodparasites), they can fall off from tables if the staff doesn't take care well, they can get off their collars and run into street etc, also at grooming saloons... that's why i do it myself now (the grooming, doesn't look as perfect but still serves the purpose), i don't trust anyone with my beloved ones. of course in some cases it could be necessary to keep them at the vet unfortunately.

[elfe]

And what will be the protection of a half dose?

half a dose works the same as full dose. there is a minimum dose of vaccine which should be applied which is not more than 20% of the dose in the vaccine ampulls.

the problem is the live virus in the combined vaccine, it gives your dog the disease which will be fought off by building up antibodies which remain in the system to fight further infections.

this subject is very compex and studies are not easy to carry out and still poor.

it depends on the individual how the vaccine works. if the puppy is already (not obviously) infected with viral disease the vaccine on top can bring out the disease quckly and devastating. without vaccine the dog would have maybe fought the virus by himself with lots of medical support. also if the immune system of the dog is poor the vaccine can make your dog sick.

a healthy dog will usually have no problem with live virus vaccine (there are still exceptions and risk), but you should still be very careful that it doesn't get sick, like a cold, shortly after vaccination.