Homemade Dog Food.

[Cuban]

As posted elsewhere I have two 3 month old 50% Rotties, circa 10kg each.

They are doing well on a basic diet of raw (bones and meat) & cooked (flesh) chicken with both cooked rice and dog biscuit (Pedigree and Tesco OB, I see rice is a major ingredient of both biscuit brands).

I have no qualms about their current diet and add variety with raw pork bones and tinned mackrel - which they adore.

They have also had prawns, flesh, legs and head parts - cooked with larger sharp bits removed.

Also chicken eggs, although from now on I'm thinking of part cooking the eggs to reduce risk from salmonella transfered on the shells.

Stools checked after eating eggs (yes shell in some cases) and prawns and no suggestion of any problems. Both dogs happy active and social.

I have seen places selling (at huge mark ups) cottage industry type doggie (also cat) snacks and treats of the form of Carrot Biscuits, Pork Balls and even Chicken Moose Dip ! ( Here ). I don't have the free time to make such things for the sake of it - the dogs don't care about presentation. But if I could spend a little time preparing something 'different' that them becomes a fast food to feed the dogs when I am short of time.

I guess I am trying to avoid falling down the path of canned dog food.

I am thinking of using the marrow from cooked bones to create a jellied type mould, the dogs would not be eating the cooked bone.

Any thoughts, ideas or experiances?

[tuffy]

I am interested in making my own dog food (cheaply if possible) also. After seeing a report that many name brand dog foods actually use dead cat and dog carcasses in their food, basically any dead animal that makes it to the rendering plant will end up in dry dog food.

Does anyone have any good home made dog food recipes they are willing to share?

[thaigerd]

My wife does all the cooking for our dogs, gonna ask her for her "recipes".......if there are any.

Gerd

[Nienke]

I'm afraid there is not such a thing as cheap and good quality dog food.

Dogs are a sub-species of the wolves, Canis lupus familiaris, and thus carnivores. This means that they are designed to eat whole prey animals, meat, bones and organs. Evolution doesn't go that fast that the digestive system of dogs have changed over the few centuries.

Now usually bones aren't that expensive to buy. But giving primarily bones can harm the dog. It has to be with meat and organs. And meat and organs do have a price.

Dogs are not rice, maize, soya etc. eaters. Their system is not designed for that. Giving occasionally a meal of rice with veggies and meat is ok, but their main diet should still be meat, bones and organs. Approximately 10 to 15% of their diet should consist of organs and the rest meat and bones, including feet, beaks etc., consisting of about 50% bones and 50% meat.

When giving the food raw all digestive enzymes and other nutritients are still there in their original form which can be digested by the animal. Heating kills the digestive enzymes and many nutrients are changed or partly changed, making that they are not are not completely bio-available to the animal anymore.

When people don't want to give raw, then second best is cooking IF the food is very briefly cooked. The longer it is cooked the less nutrients are there for the animal to be able to absorb. And of course, NEVER give any cooked bones to the dog. Therefore, the calcium that the animals get from bones has to be supplemented in another form, such as bonemeal.

Also for a cooked meal: dogs are carnivores, and therefore their diet shoud consist primarily of meat, bones/bonemeal and organs.

Many peole give white rice with teh cooked meals, but same with us, there isn't that much in white rice. Between white and brown rice, naturally brown rice is better. But then again, rice is not really a part of the diet of carnivores: wolves, dogs and cats.

Important is the variation of the ingredients. Givng primarily one kind of animal protein, such as chicken, can harm the animal on the long term. Therefore, vary between chicken, pork, buffalo, small seas fish such as mackerel and sardines (best is to give the whole raw fish with head bones and all, but if cooked than the bones need to be taken out), and if you can afford it lamb, oistrich cow meat etc. Eggs, including the crust shell, is good as well, but in moderation: 2 eggs per week for a big dog and one egg for a small dog approximately.

My few setang,

Nienke

[Cuban]

I'm afraid there is not such a thing as cheap and good quality dog food.

Now usually bones aren't that expensive to buy. But giving primarily bones can harm the dog. It has to be with meat and organs. And meat and organs do have a price.

Dogs are not rice, maize, soya etc. eaters. Their system is not designed for that......

....small seas fish such as mackerel and sardines (best is to give the whole raw fish with head bones and all, but if cooked than the bones need to be taken out).......

Thank you Nienke, you have reinforced my current practice. I also consider and understand the 'natural' way that dogs evolved taking food wherever they find it, hunters taking rabbits, birds or their eggs. Or a larger animal's carcass.

This weekend they enjoyed their first pig head (chopped to size - not sawn), I think I will remove the teeth in future, the root pulp is interesting to the dogs but I doubt pig tooth enamel is ideal.

Could you comment then on the issue of dog biscuits (the 10kg sacks of Pedigree dog biscuits) - although they don't publish exact list of ingredients; I expect that most of the biscuit comprises of rice and other carbohydrate - not ideal but very popular and considered by many as 'normal'.

Final thought - any one care to comment about how much to feed each day.

They are getting through about 500g-700g each a day (typical), mixed chicken (60%) and some rice.

BTW. I'm finding using fresh meats, chicken, pork, fish etc. much cheaper kg for kg compared to shop bought 'dog food'.

[Bagwain]

I have a dog that is still going strong at nearly 16 yrs and I have fed him home cooked food.

Basically I heat olive oil in a large pan (about 10 - 15 litres) to just below smoking and then add 1 kg of good quality minced meat and heaps of garlic.

Once brown I add water and waste vegies. Bring to the boil and then I add 1 kg of rice.

Bring back to the boil, turn off and cover.

If I do in the morning I stir a couple of times through the day and by evening it is done.

I then put into small container (meal size) and freeze.

He loves it. Plus I give him left overs from our meals as well plus treats.

Hope this helps?

[Cuban]

......just below smoking and then add 1 kg of good quality minced meat and heaps of garlic.

I think you will find that dogs don't care for the 'flavour' you are adding.

The cooked meat smell will disguise the garlic odor.

Offer your dog a raw garlic clove - they will choose not to eat it.

Onions and garlic are other dangerous food ingredients that cause sickness in dogs, cats and also livestock. Onions and garlic contain the toxic ingredient thiosulphate. Onions are more of a danger. Pets affected by onion toxicity will develop haemolytic anaemia, where the pet’s red blood cells burst while circulating in its body.

Source: Read this link.

HTH !

[Nienke]

As I have my boarding kennel I can observe many dogs on a daily basis.

Recently I had a husky coming in boarding with bad skin and coat, several small hotspots, start of blackening skin, rash on earflap, excessive earwax and light conjuctivitis. The dog was on some sort of cheap dogfood, not sure about the brand. After one week on Science diet and the coat is growing back, the skin is improving, the conjunctivitis is gone, and the ear wax is already a lot less.

Another dog, a lab/GSD mix (and an absolutely adorable creature ) is fed on pedigree. His coat is rough and pale. He has light conjuctivitis, and the skin on his earflaps are reddened.

A while ago, another labrador: he came in with hairloss, blackened skin on belly, abdomen and paws. Similar to the lab that was looking for a good home and had such a huge abcess, see thread about him on this forum. Within 10 days there was a visible improvement and after a month pretty much all of the skin and coat problems were gone. Also the coat became more dense, soft and the color became deep light golden.

The lab with that huge abscess also has improved a lot, after changing the diet. On his paws almost all the coat has grown back and the skin color is almost back to normal.

When he came in:

After a month on a better diet:

And so, I have heaps of examples of dogs fed on cheap low quality dog food that considerably improved after changing to a high grade one.

At the kennel that is Hill's Science Diet. However, I also had a dog doing absolutely great on Nutro. Once in boarding he ate Science diet. Within two weeks he started to have skin problems. I mailed the owner if I could peleeezzzze change back to Nutro. I could, and again within the shortest time the skin problems disappeared.

Now when dogs are fed Nutro or Eagle pack at home, and they come with me in boarding I always ask the owner to provide the food for their dog themselves for the period of boarding, in stead changing them to Science Diet.

The other way around, when an owner provides the food themselves, and it turns out to be one of the low grade ones, my stomach squeezes as I know the chances on skin, coat, ear, eye problems are lurking around the corner.

Of course, when a dog is fed on Science diet it does not guarantee that it can't get sick or get a hotspot or the like.

Nienke

P.S. However, when having the choice between Science diet, another good quality dog food or raw, I choose a species appropriate diet, which is a raw diet.

[Cuban]

While I trust what you say, could you expand a bit about what is in the "Hill's Science Biscuit", ground chicken and what else?

Incidently I noticed an improvement in coat and skin with mackrel in their diet.

----------------------------------------------

Key Benefits: High digestibility reduces stool volume.

Source: This link.

If the volume of the food helps to reduce stool volume - how does it achive this - I assume by the biscuit being aerated ? In which case does this mean that the air is expelled orally or otherwise?

The dog food with added fart!

[Smithson]

Nienke,

While I agree with the % you suggest for a dog's diet, I wonder if dog's are strictly carnivores. Two of mine rush to eat mangoes that fall from the tree, as well as enjoying lemon grass so much that I have no luck growing it.

[Smithson]

Nienke,

While I agree with the % you suggest for a dog's diet, I wonder if dog's are strictly carnivores. Two of mine rush to eat mangoes that fall from the tree, as well as enjoying lemon grass so much that I have no luck growing it.

[Nienke]

Scientifically the dog is a sub-species of the wolf. Latin name: Canis lupus familiaris (Canis lupus = wolf). The wolf is a carnivore.

The teeth and the digestive system of the dog is that of a carnivores.

Sure enough many dogs like to eat fruit and veggies, but then many eat whatever you put in front of their noses ... or ... they manipulate their owner till they get on their plate what they want for that particular meal (steak, fish filet, chicken BBQ, chocolate, cookies, cake, french fries, crisps etc). .

Dogs ain't omnivores, although they come very close to garbage bags or vacuum cleaners.

[Nienke]

While I trust what you say, could you expand a bit about what is in the "Hill's Science Biscuit", ground chicken and what else?

Brrr, tricky question. When I read the ingredients my stomach turns. If I had a choice I would give all dogs a raw diet. But not all dog owners agree with that, hence the fact that I give dryfood.

The ingredient of HSD adult original:

Ground whole grain corn

Chicken by-product meal,

Soybean meal

Animal fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid)

chicken liver flavor,

Soybean oil

Flaxseed

Iodized salt

Calcium carbonate

Vitamins supplement

Calcium pantothenate

Biotin,

Vit B12 supplement

Pyridoxine hydrochloride

Riboflavin

Folic acid

Vit D3 supplement

Vit E supplement

Choline chloride

Minerals (ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid

Beta-carotene

Rosemary extract

All the minerals and vitamins that are added in this food, is in their natural form in raw food. Plus all the other vitamins, minerals, trace elements, etc. that is not mentioned on the package. Not to mention those trace elements etc. that the scientists don't know much about it yet and the very important digestive enzymes.

Incidently I noticed an improvement in coat and skin with mackrel in their diet.

Most probably of the extra Omega 3.

Key Benefits: High digestibility reduces stool volume.

Source: This link.

If the volume of the food helps to reduce stool volume - how does it achive this - I assume by the biscuit being aerated ? In which case does this mean that the air is expelled orally or otherwise?

Get strongly the feeling that's sales talk. I have not seen much difference in the amounts of poo coming out of these animals, no matter the brand of dry food they eat. It's just enormous!

Once you feed raw food, you will besurprised how much their poo will reduce! Then, we can talk about real digestibility!

The dog food with added fart!

That's my dog! Bio-gas in its purest form.

[Cuban]

Neinke thank you for taking the time to post (and type/copy) this list.

The item '...by-product meal', I think that the raw connective tissues offer more nutrition; as the biscuit is surely cooked. Also the issue of dogs being more carnivores than omnivores once again surfaces with 'gain corn, soybean present in the list. I doubt they offer the exact percentage of each ingredient, so the cheaper items will bulk out the biscuit. I don't feel bad in the amount of rice they are getting - but I think as a household will will switch to using more brown rice than white.

Text below just Googled/Wikipedia.

Riboflavin - Milk, cheese, leafy green vegetables, liver, kidneys, legumes such as mature soybeans.

Folic acid - Leafy vegetables such as spinach, turnip greens, lettuces, dried beans and peas,

Chicken liver flavor - I tend to consider the word 'flavor' like this in ingredient lists on human food as an alarm bell, like smoky bacon flavour crisps are 100% Kosher (?) never having been near a real pig.

Iodized salt - apart from the existing (Pedigree and Tesco dog biscuits) I don't think my dogs are exposed to much salt at all - very little human food and then only a little left over fried rice or part of a bacon sandwich that I do share with them on occasion. I wonder if I should add the smallest pinch of salt? Your thoughts are welcomed.

Calcium carbonate - they get this from raw egg and prawn shells about once a week.

Biotin - liver and eggs.

Vit B12 - liver and eggs.

Pyridoxine hydrochloride - aka Vit B6 - A very good source of pyridoxine is dragon fruit from South East Asia.

> Dogs ain't omnivores, although they come very close to garbage bags or vacuum cleaners.

I think the expression is oppotunist feeders, but they do consider before eating, a peeled glove of garlic fell to the floor a few weeks ago, as is the norm with interesting things the humans are doing in the kitchen meaty smells one rushed to the scene, sniffed it once and turned away. When eating some fruit the other day they both sat waiting for me to share, they each ate a lump but really weren't impressed.

So in general mixed raw meats/organs, bone and fish shellfish and raw eggs seems to cover all bases. Add some leafy vegatables avoid garlic and they should be happy healthy doggies.

As for "reduced stoll" - what goes in, generally comes out. Our dogs don't produce excessive amounts I think - firm not too smelly.

This thread as turned out somewhat differently than I originally considered but has been most interesting.

[Naam]

garlic and shellfish. our dog refuses plain shrimps. sniffs, retreats and that's it. offered him a single fried shrimp thickly covered in very hot chili and garlic. he sniffed, jumped back and barked. a few seconds later he approached carefully sniffed, licked, jumped back and growled angrily. another 30 seconds later he sniffed, licked, chewed, swallowed the piece and licked his mouth. beats me

[Cuban]

...sensitive noses ? When mine sniffed a freshly struck match the puzzled look of shock on their faces was very funny.

[Bagwain]

......just below smoking and then add 1 kg of good quality minced meat and heaps of garlic.

I think you will find that dogs don't care for the 'flavour' you are adding.

The cooked meat smell will disguise the garlic odor.

Offer your dog a raw garlic clove - they will choose not to eat it.

Onions and garlic are other dangerous food ingredients that cause sickness in dogs, cats and also livestock. Onions and garlic contain the toxic ingredient thiosulphate. Onions are more of a danger. Pets affected by onion toxicity will develop haemolytic anaemia, where the pet's red blood cells burst while circulating in its body.

Source: Read this link.

HTH !

It would only be a few cloves and this I was told is very good for the blood and the skin and will repell Fleas.

He doesn't look to bad!

[Nienke]

Wow, Bagwain, he certainly looks quite good for a 16 year old!

Actually I've also read several times about the danger on heamolitic anemia when giving onion or garlic. One clove a day seems to be risky already.

However, when giving that in capsule/powder form a certain ingredient (allium or something) that can cause this problem is 'taken out'. Therefore, in capsule form it seems not to be dangerous.

Now I'm not sure if cooking does the same.

Nienke

[elfe]

owning so many dogs as i do i cannot feed them entirely raw, even if i wished. the cost is too high and also the shopping, carrying, chopping too much for me every day for such huge amount. that is why i provide my dogs with kibble all the time and give them raw meat, bones and organs once daily. they also get ground coconutmeat about once a week and the dogs who live at my house get left overs from my food which i always try to have plenty

but i cannot see a difference in the dogs which don't get the leftovers and more rarely get fish and the like!

they all have great coats and teeth and are fit and strong.

about a year ago i found a 'cheap' kibble which i am very content with, and also my dogs. it is called 'rishy' and a thai product. i tried many others before and they all were not acceptable, even with eukanuba which is more costy, the stool was loose and dogs did not really like it so much. the only kibble which my dogs like even more is the puppy kibble from royal canin for maxi dogs. if i don't have fresh meat or fish i mix this with the cheaper brand. but my dogs really like the rishy and output is good, so is skin and coat. not sure how it would be on a longer run with exclusively this kibble as i always give them some fresh bone or meat on a daily basis in addition.

i don't think that garlic is dangerous in small amounts. some dogs really like the garlic pieces in the left overs, others avoid it. so i let them choose! but i would not add a lot on a daily basis where the dogs cannot choose to eat it or not.

olive oil is best uncooked as all other cold pressed oils.

i know of some very old dogs (20 yrs and more) here who lived their entire lives on left overs. i still think that is a very good diet and most appropriate for dogs if you look at all the thousand yrs back when dogs were companions for people. this includes raw pieces as well (left over from cooking )

[Smithson]

Considering the Thais eat pretty much all parts of an animal, I doubt there would be anything decent left for dog food manufacturers. The cheap kibble over here probably is mostly tallow and grains, plus sugar salt and color.

We feed raw, adding pumpkin, some leafy veggies and sometimes yogurt. We don't give rice, I think one of my dogs is alergic to it.

With the price increases over the past 12 months cost has become an issue. The following items are very cheap:

- Chicken carcass with quite a bit of meat and skin (B25 kg)

- Solidified blood (10B)

- Pigs lungs (25B each)

- Eggs (3B)

The cost of chicken meat is close to 100B and pork is even more, so adding this really pushes the price up. I would like to use as much of the cheap ingredients as possible, but am not sure how much I can give while still being balanced. Does anyone have ideas?

[Cuban]

Considering the Thais eat pretty much all parts of an animal, I doubt there would be anything decent left for dog food manufacturers.....

Agreed - when I was researching the raw food diet, the web-sites I read (typically American) would suggest that items like chicken's feet would be almost given away. Yeah right - dogs vs GF fighting over the feet!

The cheap kibble over here probably is mostly tallow and grains, plus sugar salt and color.

With a base of broken rice? I must taste some tonight to try to understand what is in it - probably give me a wet nose and a nice shiny coat.

> Chicken carcass with quite a bit of meat and skin (B25 kg)

I'm paying about 11 Baht a body, and have found a market stall that is not very good and cutting all the meat from the carcass - so it is a very good buy.

>Solidified blood (10B)

I hadn't thought of those - good idea, on the shopping list for tomorrow.

Where do you get the pig lungs? I have bought pig heads before but the ribs etc. are destined for me, although the dogs do get some of the raw bones.

The eggs we get are about 2.5 Baht each, bulk buy.

>.....cheap ingredients as possible, but am not sure how much I can give while still being balanced.

> Does anyone have ideas?

Only adding fish to the diet - but depends on the fish, this is probably not the right path to cheap food.

For cereal bulking agent, I think pearl barley is fairly cheap.

Egg protein and Soy - I will probably try them on the tubes of Tofu that supermarkets sell at about 7 Baht a tube, using this to replace chicken meat for one meal.

Which brings me to another question - if their target calorie intake per day is 500 Calories a day? Are we over feeding them? They are (each) eating about 250grams of Chicken (bone and meat) in one meal and a second meal of about 300 grams mixed rice, cooked chicken meat & fat, fish, eggs, prawns etc mixed depending on what we are eating that day.

Interesting link - text about half way down the page.

[Smithson]

We do feed fish sometimes. Especially when it's cheap at Tesco.

Be careful with the solidified blood, it's very rich, so too much will give them diarrhea.

I avoid the grains altogether, there's not the much nutritional value in them, pumpkin is 15 - 20B per kg.

If you ask the pork sellers at the market about the lungs they will probably have some for you. The leftover coconut meat is really cheap also.

[Nienke]

Giving fish in moderation, especially when it is the small sea fish is good. Lots of Omega 3's.

Trying to get ingredients at low(er) cost is logic, but when this means an increase in bones compared to the meat content or when the organs consist primarily of one or two organs then you unbalance the diet, with possible health problems as a result. It seems that lungs do not have a lot of nutritional value or at least a lot less than intestines, liver and kidneys.

Here some threads with info on raw feeding that have popped up on this forum over the last year:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Quality-Kibb...amp;hl=raw+food

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Ground-Chick...amp;hl=raw+food

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Raw-Pork-Dog...amp;hl=raw+food

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Commercial-D...amp;hl=raw+food

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Raw-Cooked-F...et-t118851.html

And here a thread on what kind of dirt they put in the pet foods. And who knows what else is in there just to make the animal eat it:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/5th-Contamin...amp;hl=raw+food

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pet-Food-Sca...amp;hl=raw+food

Nienke

[Gary A]

One of my dogs favorite treats is sweet corn. We often have the boiled or steamed ears. I take off the husk and give it to the dog. He will lay down and eat it the same as a person eats sweet corn. He holds it between his paws and uses his front teeth to take the corn off the cob. He is also fond of sticky rice.

[tango]

The cheapest in price is the Makro brand which iscurrently 419B for 20kg: more expensive for the 10 kg bag- prices went from 390 to 490 a month ago but fell back. Shouldn't really be telling you this as prices will escalate if you all board the band wagon. But hey.... BTW, the 'save..xxx' brand is made by the same company that makes BOKDOK which is 3 to 4 times more expensive. Check the label on the back.

I have 5 Rotts so I need the cheapest of the best. I make them a fresh meal once a day of rice and chicken, or rice and eggs. I add a little mountain flower honey from Tak on occasion, along with a dry soup mix w/o the chemical. I use sunflower oil so no cholesteral. Sometimes if there is any of their rice left over, I partake. I feed them their evening meal w the Makro brand, dry. The eldest god bless her; Yin, the baroness, is 10 years old and her younger sister, Yang, is 10 years less 10 minutes. Then comes their brood - Prinz, Benz-son of Prinz, and Dame von Schwardwald also sired by Prinz.

Do not feed your pets wet food all the time or they tend to lose their teeth.

Re 'part cooking the eggs to reduce risk from salmonella transfered on the shells' unquote. Exactly right. Boil them about 90 seconds from when the water begins to boil. Remove and submerge in cool water to stop the cooking process. The dogs' coats get shinier as a bonus feature. Crack the egg over the dry meal or let them have a treat with the egg itself. I am worried about cholesteral so I give them eggs every other day.

I am a fan of cooking ALL bones they get as a treat. Uncooked meat once in a blue moon. Uncooked meat especially pork gives them worms. All the naturists advocating raw this and that for domestic petz because that's the way of the wild were not around to watch them die in the wild, not a long lifespan there- considering 'survival of the fittest.

But I tend to go on.... pardon

[Cuban]

But I tend to go on.... pardon

I wish more people would write longer replies like you, Explains ideas with greater clarity.

Crack the egg over the dry meal or let them have a treat with the egg itself.

I do something similar, crack the egg - mix with some water - soak with basic dog biscuits for 10 minutes or so to make the biscuit more interesting. I tried one myself a week ago - it does need something to liven it up when compared to the meat they get.

I am a fan of cooking ALL bones they get as a treat.

I differ on this point - raw is better IMHO.

Uncooked meat once in a blue moon. Uncooked meat especially pork gives them worms. All the naturists advocating raw this and that for domestic petz because that's the way of the wild were not around to watch them die in the wild, not a long lifespan there- considering 'survival of the fittest.

I understand your thoughts regarding the wild/raw issue, however consider that as humans (and animal loving humans at that) we would not give rotten/rotting meat to our pets, where as in the wild if it's not moving it is consider an easy meal - bacteria and all.

The human grade raw chicken mine eat is well received.

[Smithson]

Do not feed your pets wet food all the time or they tend to lose their teeth.

This is interesting, do you have some more info? What do you consider wet? Because I never feed my dogs 'dry food' (kibble). What is the cause?

I am a fan of cooking ALL bones they get as a treat.

There's been a lot of discussion about this, with knowledgeable ppl saying cooking bones makes them brittle, which is bad for the insides. Neinke knows more on this.

[Nienke]

Not only Nienke knows more on this, also I dare to say that pretty much ALL vets will tell you NOT to feed cooked bones, especially those of poultry.

Nienke

[Cuban]

Bones: Get a rack of raw pork ribs, remove one rib bone and chop it up with a large knife etc. cook the remaining ribs - enjoy the meal yourself then try to chop a similar cokked bone up with the same knife - you will see and understand that the raw bone can be broken down while the cooked bone is like carbon re-enforced glass fibre - very tough and when it does break leaves nasty sharp edges.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Cuban

[Nienke]

You just tried that out, didn't you?!!!!