Used Invoice To Get Legal Registration? (green Book)

[Kwarium]

Yeah, I've read and searched and googled, but I don't yet read Thai. There are hundreds of bikes for sale as 'invoice' on any given day in Thailand; some are under a year old! This week I have been quoted anywhere from 26,000 baht to 70,000 Baht to get a big bike licensed with a 'real' legal green book. Some sellers will even say that they can get a book but admit it's not 'full' so actually not legal.

My question is to learn more on a hypothetical situation of say someone finds an honest seller (hold your laughter please) with a nice bike and a full invoice (someone said an invoice is actually a set of documents; 15 pages?). Some invoices allegedly don't have a name listed on them yet and the buyers name goes there. Does it not make sense (alarm bells ring right there!) that said buyer could walk into DLT, present papers and register said bike?

It's not illegal to import parts and it can't be illegal to assemble parts into a working bike. Could it possibly be illegal to register the newly built bike? Is the big money for the document forgers or under the table for the guys who issue real books?

I just have a hard time understanding that there isn't a legal and inexpensive process to get a bike registered when it is a law to have and carry a copy of your registration book. Are all these unregistered 'grey' bikers paying the 1000 baht fine regularly or are they getting these bikes registered?

What is the real scoop?

[dotcom]

I think I posted last week.

To get a Tabien Lote on a 1000 cc bike is 80,000 baht.

Any other questions?

[basjke]

Yeah, I've read and searched and googled, but I don't yet read Thai. There are hundreds of bikes for sale as 'invoice' on any given day in Thailand; some are under a year old! This week I have been quoted anywhere from 26,000 baht to 70,000 Baht to get a big bike licensed with a 'real' legal green book. Some sellers will even say that they can get a book but admit it's not 'full' so actually not legal.

My question is to learn more on a hypothetical situation of say someone finds an honest seller (hold your laughter please) with a nice bike and a full invoice (someone said an invoice is actually a set of documents; 15 pages?). Some invoices allegedly don't have a name listed on them yet and the buyers name goes there. Does it not make sense (alarm bells ring right there!) that said buyer could walk into DLT, present papers and register said bike?

It's not illegal to import parts and it can't be illegal to assemble parts into a working bike. Could it possibly be illegal to register the newly built bike? Is the big money for the document forgers or under the table for the guys who issue real books?

I just have a hard time understanding that there isn't a legal and inexpensive process to get a bike registered when it is a law to have and carry a copy of your registration book. Are all these unregistered 'grey' bikers paying the 1000 baht fine regularly or are they getting these bikes registered?

What is the real scoop?

Kwarium,

The bike in my avatar,a Yamaha Roadliner 1900 brandnew,was imported by me with the help from a local shop owner and it cost me 65.000 baht to have it registered and with legal green book.It was imported as a used bike and I got all the documents from the shipping up to the registration with the amounts paid.Reason that it is so expensive is that the government try to block imports.For example to do the emission test,which is required for an import bike,the government charge 25.000 baht and they put the limits so strict that you will need an insider who does many modifications to be able to pass the test.There is also a detailed report on the Golden triangle forum from a guy how imported a bike and did all the import and registration himself,take a look at it.Send me a PM if you like and I will bring you in contact with the Thai shop owner who did it all for me.He can order what you like,used or new,but it might take some time.At the end I trust him,which I can't say about many Thai's,as this is the second bike I imported trough him and it will save you a lot of hassle.Me and the shop are based in Pattaya.

[thaicbr]

Also remember that it is illegal not to pay customs duty on the built up bike. so yes nothing illegal about bringing in parts and assembling but they only do it this way to avoid the customs duty. when you use it on the road you are breaking the law. (hohum law in Thailand, silly me)

but the end result is they can impound the bike.

thats what happened to Bard and i think a few off gt-riders.

if ya Thai or get it cheeeeaap then ok but dont buy anything you cant afford to lose.

Allan

[Kwarium]

Replies appreciated; question remains unanswered.

it cost me 65.000 baht to have it registered and with legal green book

To get a Tabien Lote on a 1000 cc bike is 80,000 baht

Two or three years ago the max i ever heard was 40,000 for a green book. If you pay 40,000 or 80,000 or 65,000 someone is going to be your friend and very trustworthy; for awhile at least! Longer obviously if you pay him twice.

Not trying to wind anyone up, but how much of that is going to the Land Transport guys? In another recent thread a poster was dismayed that much less of the fee than he thought was for the green book.

I'll get over to the golden triangle thread after work.

Thanks.

[BigBikeBKK]

This is a VERY informative post from Scott at Siam Motorcycles which was posted on the GT Rider Forum:

After months of badgering from custermers also shed some light on how it really works and also to respond to a few of the less possative comments on all of us hard done by Motorcycle retailers in Thailand Here's a dealer insight to the machanics of the industry ...............

Make a cup of tea and lets get down and dirty ...........

The below is regarding volume imports not ''suit case smuggled ducati's '' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

95 % of all large capacity motorcycles in Thailand are of a grey import origion almost all coming from Japan . These motor cycles are sourced by licenced Japanese agents who you must use as a purchaser and mediator , that is concrete japanese export law when dealing in volume requirments !!!!

The machines are sourced by trade consolidators from retailers clearing out old stock , part exchanges , last years unsold models ect .These go to 'BLOCK'' along with fianance reposetions ,stolen recovered , insurance damaged claims machines and police siezures .

'Block' is the term used for large export auctions and when i use the term large this is an understatement ......around 5000 machines up to a recent whopping 21,000 bikes where auctioned off for global export every month.

Yes i hear you say ''tell us some thing we dont know'' ..........please bare with me and you will get a fuller picture ..........

Most machines purchased by your approved agent also deals with the freight and shipping who 80 % of the time simply throw them in a container fully assembled to be despached to counrty of purchase .

Thailand however in its almighty wisdom will not allow you to import a fully assembled second hand / used machine complete even if you are willing to pay the full 77% import tax . complete NEW bikes only is the law !!!!!!!! so all bikes bound for Thailand then have to be stripped into parts ..........this is where it becomes expensive as any one who has done business in Japan know the price of labour and its not 200 baht a day !!!! Further expense before leaving japan...............

So we now have our containers (note containers) as the Thai import laws state that a complete machine even in parts is not allowed into Thailand as its import tax evashion so engines in one container , frames in another and yes wheels , seat , plastics ect in another ........thats three shipping costs !!!!

The containers must not be assosiated with each other and all go to differant ports under differant names ,tractors ,cranes ,ATV's ect all done in this manner and have been done so for decades.

Please note a gratuatess enverlope for services rendered is ALWAYS required no matter how small the shippment.!!!!

The import tax for a used parts complete bike works out at approxamtly 28% . If there is any incorrect data or false purchase price information on the shipping manafest and original bill of sale from Japan then you are in for one hel_l of a roller coaster ride to sort it out from the Japanese end and mistakes are often made.

So once the bikes are here and re-assembled which you need a goverment licence for in Thailand (we have one ) they then can be sold ...........HOWEVER......you can not by law place a vehicle on a show room floor untill it has been registered with the minstry of transport or you posess a licenced ministy of transport trade plate / approval cert which requires you complete the registration in twelve weeks !!!!!!!!!!!.

NOW WERE GETTING THERE ................

It is estemated that there are around 200,000 large capacity motorcycles in Thailand with a large % being imported in the last 10 years . With a population of 66,000,000 these figures are astoundingly low considering the all year weather conditions and the expendable fianance the general public now has access to , bank loans , fianance deals ect ect .

So back to the topic of the ''BOOK'' business. Once the bike has been assembled and you are in possetion of all legal documentation as it takes a while for the customs and shipping companies to release these you may apply for a book , if you are a "Falang" you will need a current valid passport and a valid visa , if you have a dodgey visa or passport BEWARE as these are inspected and not just your current visa but also all previous entries in your passport . We have been in deep water submitting an application to the imagration with illigal visa's which has led to me being dragged into the immigration office with the police demanding the where abouts of the purchaser !!! I have been instructed to asssit in these matters or pack my bags !!!!!!!!

So if all is well we submitt the import papers , copy of passport and visa also approved immagration application to the ''AGENTS'' approved by the minstry of transport or to our ''APPROVED '' agent who works directly in partnership with the ministry of transport office . These are an endangered species here in Thailand as they do not opperate out a Sukhumvit office or have web sites and can only be contacted when they so wish ..........however they do eventually produce the goods after a period of time , now the period of time ''is as long as a piece of string'' , payment is made in full up front for the books .

If there are any anomiliies you are going to find out at this point and this is where the fun starts...........if you have only 2 -4 -6 -8 weeks left on your visa then chances are it wont get processed in time as it needs to go through three differant departments to complete. If you ever want to see Thai efficienty pop to the minsitry of transport office in BKK where registrations are dealt with .............take a camera as your freinds will never belive you !!! 10 inspectors checking a back log of thousands of bikes current details and condition...........oh sorry forgot to mention that the ministry now require the bike for physical inspection and often the bike has to be left for days on end .............

It takes around 16- 20 weeks to register a grey import from start to finish if there are no problems , your buggered if you work offshore and are in and out of the country and are on a 90 day visa , its hard work convincing them to complete it even when they are aware of visa difficulties ........money usually does the job but ''it aint cheap''.

The inspection is done and you will recive a rego plate two to four weeks later along with the road tax certificate , still no book ....yep still no book

it will eventually appear many months later . Now any one who has experianced this wait will know it is a very long wait. If you wish to travel out of thailand on your new bike its a big concern ..............

Most books which are in circulation are of a re- cycled nature , engine numbers , year of registration are miles out .These bikes are from the older generation of imports a few examples are CB 400 S , Steeds ,Bross ,Bandits ,CBR400 ,xjr's ,Transalps most of which where imported for the rental or hire businesess which are scattered across Thailand and as we all know there a lot of them . These books are finding their ways onto newer imported bikes which the ministry are quite happy to re- regiseter for a cost ........ so all you moaning paranoid bikers out there who baught a hundred thousand baht bike dont expect an original book as these cost 55,000 direct over the counter . The recent concern over books can be attributed to one thing ........all the ministry of transports data is now centrally computerised so if you have an old bike it may have been registered in ''Nakonnowhere'' on the back of a fag packet ten years earlier.

All these files are now being dealt with , now for those who are not aware a jolly Thai chap called chewmin (burapa/ shark riders) who is the president he is now in talks with the authorities to call an amnisty so all bikers may take their bikes in and have all irregularaties corrected ,when you see an advert for this campain please please give it your support as it will give bikers and retailers a clean slate to work from as at presant it is a total f#@&%! mess.

All our new imports have new registration plates but problems with the older machines there is little i or any dealer can do about it , if your buying an older bike its sure to have the book data checked at the minisrty where it is registered ...........

Here's a few figures to explain why most of these books are on these re-cycled books...............

A new import 10 year old honda steed from japan costs 50 -55 k a recycled book 35 k . another 5 k for assembling and a full service ,if it needs a tyre ,chain ect then more . we sell these machines at 120,000 - 130,000 baht so as you can see it the profit hardly buys a round of drinks in your local MC club !!!!

Where is does get messy is when a new super bike / chopper turns up with a 10 year old plate , this practice does go on here in Thailand and this is a real problem , i have had my fingers burnt to a crisp with this problem as i have had to refund the custermer in full ,My own fault for not checking with the ministry on whats on the central computer , If any one has the balls to set up a ''vehicle checking service '' i would be your first customer but as we all know this does not exsist at this time due to how the system has worked for many years and what your findings would reviel and who it would incriminate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are buying a newly imported bike check the frame and engine numbers ,record them and when you get your book if they dont match ask for your money back , i make a point of telling the buyer if there are any data corrections on the book these days , most people are aware of the pit falls although if the corrections registered on the ministry central pc then there's not a problem.

As a dealer i cannot change the way the motorcycle registration business has been implemented for the past two decades , as lets face the facts the systems in place by the authorities to extract as much moneys in any way possible !!!!!!!!!!!!! The customs get their envolope, the ministry get their envolope and us dealers get hassel of the custom inspection police so they get theirs as well ...........

i often ask myself whats the point !!!

so there you have it ...........

buying an old low cost bike expect the re-cycled book ...........

Buying a new import large capacity bike insist on a new book ................

And on a personal note this is not an easy business as their are many pitfalls and the fact four bike shops have gone out of business in the last year confirms this . there is so much to go wrong with the registering and new name owner ship transfares , lets not even get into false thai ID cards and missing visa's ,angry wifes and worst of all retarded wanna be hells angels who need mental health care not motorcycles ..............

FOR SALE ONE ESTABLISHED MOTORCYCLE RETAIL SHOP ....................

WILL PX PIG FARM ON SATURN .............

If i get any possative feed back , i will be happy to explain any questions you have regarding motorcycles in Thailand ............

Also with regards to Gasahol ...........DO NOT USE THIS FUEL IT WILL SEIZE YOUR CARBS AND VALVES IF LEFT STOOD !!!!!!

Link: http://www.gt-rider.com/thailand-motorcycl...2355.html#17810

[dotcom]

40,000 baht would be pretty close. FOR A 400 CC MOTORCYCLE.

Why do you care what % goes to the Land Transport dept?

For myself I want a legit book - during my lifetime.

Thailand is pay for performance.

[Kwarium]

Thanks BigBike I hadn't read that thread before.

...hundred thousand baht bike dont expect an original book as these cost 55,000 direct over the counter.

I see that was posted over there in January... maybe I should have named the thread

'how many different prices for legal registration have you heard?'!

Seems like a common trait to all the versions is the scam on getting the bikes emission tested. Hard to believe they haven't tested enough Honda Super Fours to just sign them off by now! (Oh that would cause them to miss 26,000 each time wouldn't it...)

Can anyone confirm just what a legal invoice is for registration purposes? Obviously multiple pages, but how many and what are they?

Dotcom- I care because I'm thinking of riding in there with all my papers in order and prepared to pay the actual fee. Still doing my homework though, thus all the questions.

edit: bad quote code

[dotcom]

O sorry.

The prices I quoted are for a professional to do it.

Good Luck.

Someday tell us how many cc.

[BigBikeBKK]

I wish you the very best of luck Kwarium,

From all I've read and the nightmare stories from my friends I don't think you'll ever find a concrete set answer to your question about registering an imported bike in Thailand. It will cost money and it will take time- there's no way around it.

As mentioned earlier, Thailand is not keen on opening up the market to imported motorcycles. By keep the process as it is they put domestically built motorcyles at a nice advantage and they get to line their pockets everytime someone wants to register an imported bike.

I'm very happy that Kawasaki has decided to offer their Thai built Ninja 250R here in Thailand. So far the bike is a huge success and Kawasaki plans to offer other models (ER-6N is next!) as time goes on. By selling domestically produced motorcyles Kawasaki has a huge price advantage over their competitors.

The other brands (and import shops like RED BARON, TEERA, etc) that sell big bikes in Thailand, such as Yamaha, BMW, Triumph and Ducati import their bikes so the costs are much higher due to the import taxes. But at least you do get a proper Green Book when buying from a liscensed dealer.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Ride On

[dotcom]

Makes a huge difference based upon engine size.

On Thai Visa Classifieds right now is a 2200 cc bike!!!!!

[Richard-BKK]

Triumph is producing motorcycles in Thailand with the exact BOI rules as Kawasaki. That Kawasaki or Triumph is producing most of there motorcycles in Thailand, they still need to pay import duty to get onto the domestic market.

Kawasaki and Triumph are manufacturing by what is called "Bonded warehouse manufacturing".

The 600cc motorcycles which are expected in February are the new 2009 models, being the ER-6N and the ZX-6R. The date is not 100% set, as the companies introduction was set on that date, with the EX-250J (Ninja 250R) the company introduction was almost 12 months before they got actual on the market. Lets hope that the 600cc go's faster.

In 2009 is the import duty on motorcycles from Japan 6% (in 2010, it would be 0) and Honda Thailand already said that it will start importing motorcycles from 250cc.

Still no information on the time frame of what Honda is thinking....

I wish you the very best of luck Kwarium,

From all I've read and the nightmare stories from my friends I don't think you'll ever find a concrete set answer to your question about registering an imported bike in Thailand. It will cost money and it will take time- there's no way around it.

As mentioned earlier, Thailand is not keen on opening up the market to imported motorcycles. By keep the process as it is they put domestically built motorcyles at a nice advantage and they get to line their pockets everytime someone wants to register an imported bike.

I'm very happy that Kawasaki has decided to offer their Thai built Ninja 250R here in Thailand. So far the bike is a huge success and Kawasaki plans to offer other models (ER-6N is next!) as time goes on. By selling domestically produced motorcyles Kawasaki has a huge price advantage over their competitors.

The other brands (and import shops like RED BARON, TEERA, etc) that sell big bikes in Thailand, such as Yamaha, BMW, Triumph and Ducati import their bikes so the costs are much higher due to the import taxes. But at least you do get a proper Green Book when buying from a liscensed dealer.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Ride On

[jdinasia]

IF --- big IF ----

you can get the shop that originally sold the bike to copy the documents including the VIN you have a chance of getting a bike registered late (and for no additional charge)

I bought my bike new .. never got the dealer to do the right paperwork ... later I got them to get me all the paperwork and got it registered (in a different province even!)

[Kwarium]

Thanks again all-

Definitely interesting events with bigger new bikes coming in . A Honda dealer told me that APHonda themselves were opening a big bike shop in February. maybe I better wait and see what's on offer! the 250 Ninja is cool but the riding position looks like crap for cruising around. I mean it's a Ninja after all.

I wish someone knew what a complete invoice looked like. Wouldn't do to have 5 of the dozen documents needed now would it?

I have my eye on a cb400 super four, but smaller would suit me fine. Even a dual purpose / enduro might work for me.

[thaicbr]

kwarium ask Bard and BKK biker about the position, i think you will find its fine. when i did the carpark test ride at rama9 kawasaki i thought it was probably better than the cbr150 for taking the weight of your wrists, and much,much better than the older racer style bikes like the cbr250.

Allan

[BigBikeBKK]

Indeed Kwarium- don't write off the Ninja 250R until you have a chance to try one- (I NEVER thought I'd own a 250!) The Ninja 250R is no where near the agressive riding position of the bigger Ninja's and I've done a bunch of weekend road trips and find the baby Ninja quite comfortable for both long distance cruising and city riding. The Kawasaki Big Bike shop on Rama 9 usually has the Ninja 250R and D-Tracker available for test spins in their parking lot on Fridays and Saturdays- why not give it a try? I think you might be pleasantly surprised. I know I was!

Happy Trails!

[Bard]

Hi Kwarium,

I see there is a query regarding the Ninja 250R, first of all the 250 is not a supersport bike but a sport bike so you will find the riding position as any other sportsbike, e.g. CB 400 type so you find yourself leaning slightly forward on the bike. Not like it's Ninja brothers which is super sport and you lean heavily.

However if you like to sit straight they do sell the Kawasaki D-Tracker 250 and the Kawasaki KLX 250 where you sit straight up.

[BigBikeBKK]

Triumph is producing motorcycles in Thailand with the exact BOI rules as Kawasaki. That Kawasaki or Triumph is producing most of there motorcycles in Thailand, they still need to pay import duty to get onto the domestic market.

Kawasaki and Triumph are manufacturing by what is called "Bonded warehouse manufacturing".

The 600cc motorcycles which are expected in February are the new 2009 models, being the ER-6N and the ZX-6R. The date is not 100% set, as the companies introduction was set on that date, with the EX-250J (Ninja 250R) the company introduction was almost 12 months before they got actual on the market. Lets hope that the 600cc go's faster.

In 2009 is the import duty on motorcycles from Japan 6% (in 2010, it would be 0) and Honda Thailand already said that it will start importing motorcycles from 250cc.

Interesting info Richard- thank you for sharing!

So, according to your information the Thai built Ninja 250Rs that are being sold in Thailand have been charged import duty?

That's interesting, because the sales invoice I received for my new Ninja 250R didn't mention anything about import duty, yet I have already received my Tabien Rot (Green Book)...

(I always wondered what an actual Green Book looked like- well, here it is!

[Kwarium]

That would certainly explain why a Kawa 250 costs double what a Honda 150 does. (Yes you've gotta me talking about new bikes with fresh real green books!) stopdam-it!

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to go for just a tiny test drive.

Geez then i wouldn't get to spend weekends trying to find parts for a 12 year old grey bike. And what about all the fun I'd miss trying to get a green book on my own with out a patters 'professional' (conartist)?

:D

Wouldn't it be more rewarding to source a new cbr clutch from japan than to spend saturday mornings cruising on a brand new bike?

Note to self: Consider waiting 'til Feb to see what Honda is bringing in as the resale value will be much higher.