An Evolutionary Analysis Of Thai-farang Relationships

[JohnnyThai]

In the West, it is estimated that between 10-20% of children are raised unknowingly by a man who is not their real father. The reason is quite simple. Women seek the best provider as a husband to raise her children, but she also seeks who she deems as the most superior man to mate with because she wants his good genes. From the evolutionary perspective, the most ideal scenario for a women is to have a rich, faithful husband who will raise and care for a son of another man with superior genes (attractive, young, strong) who is not her husband.

There have studies done in that West which have showed that women are more likely to cheat on their husbands with another man during the time in which they're fertile and capable of reproduction. Women of course cannot know when this moment is, but their bodies do after three million years of evolving. If a man spends the entire day with his wife and makes love to her, his body creates less sperm than if he had been away all day. The reason is again simple, if he was away, then there was a chance that another man had mated with his wife. By creating more sperm, his sperm would have a better chance of impregnating the women. Again, this a subconscious part of our nature left over from evolution.

There has been much debate on this forum of whether or not an eight-teen year old women can love a sixty year old man as a sexual partner. Two people enter relationships to exploit the other person. Men seek sex and women seek a provider for herself and her children. The physical pleasure of sex has never been important when considering a husband. If women picked fathers based on looks, they would end up raising the child by themselves. An unattractive thirty year old male with bad skin is not much different than an unattractive sixty year old male in the eyes of an eight-teen year old women. Her biggest consideration would be whether or not the older man will leave her enough money after his death to care for.

Of course, looking at human relationships from a dry scientific perspective as this can be off putting to people. Certainly, our minds have evolved and nature and nuture both play a role in our mate selection, but we still cannot escape our nature. Eight-teen year old women are not sexually attracted to sixty year old men and never will. This is not opinion, but science.

I think it is very likely that many of the women who enter these relationships are very happy, the reason being what I have described above, they have a great provider and they then seek relationships with other men on the side. The truth will never be known entirely. It seems very unlikely that these women will admit to adultery in a survey and the living environment makes it almost 100% impossible that their foreign husbands will know their whereabouts at all times.

[JetsetBkk]

There has been much debate on this forum of whether or not an eight-teen year old women can love a sixty year old man as a sexual partner.

Perhaps you should post this in that thread then.

[Maigo6]

Eight-teen year old women are not sexually attracted to sixty year old men and never will. This is not opinion, but science.

Luckily I chose a 19 year old.

[jumnien]

When I was in my twenties one of my best sexual experiences was with an overweight 57 year old argentinian woman in a swimming pool. I'm sure many girls have a ball with older men.

[britmaveric]

[jumnien]

Just curious, what's the little guy with the coffee cup reading?

[Solosiam]

When I was in my twenties one of my best sexual experiences was with an overweight 57 year old argentinian woman in a swimming pool. I'm sure many girls have a ball with older men.

sounds like you went to all the wrong parties.

[jumnien]

I gotta tell you she was hooootttt! and I'll never forget the inflatable dinosaur either!

[Austhaied]

There has been much debate on this forum of whether or not an eight-teen year old women can love a sixty year old man as a sexual partner.

Perhaps you should post this in that thread then.

He's already done that. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...t&p=1505049

[GuestHouse]

Again, this a subconscious part of our nature left over from evolution

And if you are wrong on that point, then your whole thesis collapses - I say you are wrong.

Prove to me that you have evidence that the above statement is true or that your evolutionary model is correct.

(Bull sh1t does not always baffle brains)

[JohnnyThai]

Guesthouse,

Everything I have stated was previously written in various books on evolution that I digested. You can try The Selfish Gene and The Red Queen to start.

I am not sure you feel the need to use profanity. As far as I can tell, the moderators of this board have placed a profanity filter to prevent the use of this language. By typing the word that way, you insult them and make the profanity filter pointless.

Edited August 29, 2007 by JohnnyThai

[howtoescape]

That is just a load of feminist crap to condone females cheating.

[JohnnyThai]

That is just a load of feminist crap to condone females cheating.

No, this is not feminism. Its science and nothing is being condoned. We are not talking about morality or ethics. What I described is just a glimpse of our sexual evolution. Certainly, not all women are cheaters.

[Solosiam]

I can bet you 50-60 years+ ago that this wasn't the case - in which case the whole theory flies out of the window. I can't really see it flying in Victorian England, isn't it simply just a case of women acting more like men nowadays?

[JohnnyThai]

I can bet you 50-60 years+ ago that this wasn't the case - in which case the whole theory flies out of the window. I can't really see it flying in Victorian England, isn't it simply just a case of women acting more like men nowadays?

I dont know what you are saying exactly? I think there is some general misunderstanding. I would recommend the book The Red Queen. It is about our sexual evolution written without scientific jargon. It explains some of the things I have mentioned.

Do you disagree with the premise that women seek different men to marry then they do for recreational sex?

to Guesthouse: here are some links about sperm competition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_competition

http://www.seductionlabs.org/2007/05/24/sp...erm-hypothesis/

http://www.life.uiuc.edu/fuller/lucania_fi...crsocdarter.pdf

[GuestHouse]

An unattractive thirty year old male with bad skin is not much different than an unattractive sixty year old male in the eyes of an eight-teen year old women.

I agree with that, they are both ugly.

Her biggest consideration would be whether or not the older man will leave her enough money after his death to care for.

LOL...... 18 year old women (and especially Thai women) are fixated on 'Cute young men of their own age or not much older'

If anything they are more likely to be fixated on some unatainable young man.

OK you might find one or two that are thinking of financial security, but even those are dreaming of finding a young good looking guy of their own age who can provide the good looks, good body, same values and financial security would be a plus.

Of course if, in addition to digesting books, you've been swollowing the <deleted> that girls in the 'nightery entertainment business' will be glad to tell you, then some of what you say is true.

If the basis of the relationship is a financial transaction, then you'd expect it to continue in that vain.

Why would such a girl who having found an aged sugar daddy stray off to be sorted out by some young guy she keeps around the corner.

Well, perhaps because he's in on the financial transcation, or perhaps those sweet little nothings that she's been whispering in Suggar Daddy's ears are exactly that - 'Nothings' (AKA lies).

She's with the old guy for money, she's bored but getting paid and she goes off with the young guy, because - shock horror - she actually likes him.

Why? Evolution? No!

They are the same age, they have the same culture, shared life experiences, shared expectations and they actually speak the same language.

Nothing to do with evolution and everything to do with an old guy telling himself lies.

[GuestHouse]

Oh no.... Wikipedia quotes... it must be true...

[Solosiam]

Do you disagree with the premise that women seek different men to marry then they do for recreational sex?

Yes, very much so.

It's simply a case that someone who looks good, and someone who is rich, powerful or intelligent are interesting to a lady for pretty similar reasons.

If you mate with someone who is rich, powerful or very intelligent, then it is likely that you and your offspring will be looked after well.

If you mate with someone good-looking, it is very likely that your offspring will be better looking and hence more able to find someone rich or powerful to mate with.

I'm not saying some ladies wouldn't hedge their bets and try for both, however the risks far outweigh the perceived benefits. The 10-20% figures you are touting for the West have far more to do with ladies having far more freedom than they did historically, and the "you can have it all" environment.

[JohnnyThai]

"Her biggest consideration would be whether or not the older man will leave her enough money after his death to care for."

This statement was made in the context of whether she would perfer to marry a thiry year old man for money or a 60 year old man for money. Of course, her ideal husband is both young and rich.

I am not sure how your other statements diagree with me. I said that Thai women in these relationships seek men their own age for pleasure, just as you have said the same thing.

"She's with the old guy for money, she's bored but getting paid and she goes off with the young guy, because - shock horror - she actually likes him."

Of course she actually likes him, just not enough to live with him in his tiny home and small salary. She is having her cake and eating it too.

"Nothing to do with evolution and everything to do with an old guy telling himself lies."

What lies? I am not sure what this is in reference to?

[qwertz]

Fleeting sexual attraction to another person befalls most men or women at some stage in their lives.

The philanderer or wayward woman however, usually do their best not to rock the domestic boat whilst scratching their itch.

It's not evolution, it's having the cake and eat it and it's much more prevalent in less religious and more prosperous societies.

Edited August 29, 2007 by qwertz

[GuestHouse]

I don't disagree with the idea the gentics is playing a role here:

Genetics gives some guys the looks that women like - when these guys are young these desirable traits are going to be at their peak - hence a good looking guy gets the girl.

Genetics also deprives some guys the mental capacity to see what is going on around them - when they are old, this added with senality and 'life crisis' makes them 'easy meat'.

If the alternative theory were right (and it is not) then the self same old guys 'pulling' young women in Thailand, would do likewise at home. Their exploits in Thailand would be a continuation of their busy womanizing back home.

I'm quite sure there are one or two old guys who visit/live in Thailand who manage to date with women young enough to be their daughter's back home - But not many I'll wager.

Methinks ecconomics is the key to understanding what is being put down to genetics.

-----

A converstation I once had with one of the girls at what was at the time my regular drinking haunt in one of Pattaya's dingy sois. (In Thai)

GH (In Thai): Hi Nong, is that your new 'Young Man'

(Nong - in her mid twenties, giving it the 'honey treatment' to a western guy in his late 60s)

Nong (In Thai): Yes - He's been a young man a long time. ( A laugh for the other girls)

GH: Is he rich?

Nong: No

GH: Is he good in bed (The girls are having a ball at that)

Nong: No... well yes he is.... He gets tired quickly and falls asleep easily, that's good enough in bed for me.

-----

[sleepyjohn]

If you are interested in getting real science on this I suggest

Edited August 29, 2007 by sleepyjohn

[GuestHouse]

What I actually think goes on in most Old Farang Guy/Young Thai Woman relationships is:

The old guy is looking for companionship and someone to take care of him, the woman is looking for companionship and someone to take care of her (and often her child-ren from an earlier relationship)

This is not some unthought primeval instinct but something they have both thought about, perhaps even discussed together.

So they get together and stay together.

I know many such relationships and contrary to your 'theories' the women in these relationships are almost without exception faithful to the old guy they are marrried to/living with.

Sadly I don't think the same can be said of many of the guys in such relationships, my observation is that if there is cheating going on it is usually the western guy cheating on his Thai wife - I know and have known far too many guys married to Thai women who are only too happy to 'butterfly' when the woman who loves them is not looking.

Edited August 29, 2007 by GuestHouse

[JimsKnight]

Right on Qwertz! The young interloper guy may have the odd victory here and there over the sugar daddies.

9 times out of ten the girls in general will stick to the guy with regular cash to keep them sweet. You can be the youngest, best looking but poor farang in town but I guarantee you that thai girls (or any girl) will stick around with you unless she's desperate. Along comes the sugar daddy and he'll be the one with the feathered nest at night!

Sure the girl may think 'Oh! Why isn't he younger / better looking etc!' But the fact that she's being provided for every month by the older guy will soon settle those thoughts down.

Thats one of the things I like about Thailand; There isn't this whole guilt-trip thing about sex and younger women, keeping mistresses etc. Here theres an easy going vibe that says 'Be discreet, but have fun. Be cool and act responsible.'

A guy takes a walk down the street in Europe, if he's got a young twenty-year old girl on his arm and he's fifty everyone says 'What a dirty old man.'

A guy takes a walk down the street in Thailand and he's got a young twenty-year old girl on his arm and he's fifty everyone (apart from a few puritan farangs who may see them) couldn't give a flying fck. As long as the're both happy whats the problem?

[Solosiam]

Right on Qwertz! The young interloper guy may have the odd victory here and there over the sugar daddies.

9 times out of ten the girls in general will stick to the guy with regular cash to keep them sweet. You can be the youngest, best looking but poor farang in town but I guarantee you that thai girls (or any girl) will stick around with you unless she's desperate. Along comes the sugar daddy and he'll be the one with the feathered nest at night!

Sure the girl may think 'Oh! Why isn't he younger / better looking etc!' But the fact that she's being provided for every month by the older guy will soon settle those thoughts down.

Thats one of the things I like about Thailand; There isn't this whole guilt-trip thing about sex and younger women, keeping mistresses etc. Here theres an easy going vibe that says 'Be discreet, but have fun. Be cool and act responsible.'

A guy takes a walk down the street in Europe, if he's got a young twenty-year old girl on his arm and he's fifty everyone says 'What a dirty old man.'

A guy takes a walk down the street in Thailand and he's got a young twenty-year old girl on his arm and he's fifty everyone (apart from a few puritan farangs who may see them) couldn't give a flying fck. As long as the're both happy whats the problem?

Don't fool yourself into thinking its some difference in culture, the fact is a farang is as rich as a rock star here, do you not find young attractive women with older rockstars or other older wealthy people in your home country, are they sneared and laughed at?

Most Thais feel sorry for the girl but at the same time are conscious about the wealth of the farang.

The guilt trip part should be part of yourself rather than other peoples judgement, the fact that they will overlook your discrepencies due to your massive comparative wealth, should not ease your guilt at having a mistress or a girlfriend that's younger than your daughter.

[canadiangirl]

Evolutionary psychology is a controversial field.

Perhaps the conditions humans evolved under influence what is attractive today, but it's hardly the whole story. Society and culture play a role as well. For example, some claim that the current "fashion" for big breasts comes from the fact that big breasts indicate fertility, the ability to nurse children, etc. Yet in antiquity and medieval times, big breasts were viewed as crass, the mark of a peasant woman who nursed her own children -- women would bind their breasts to make them appear smaller.

Similarly, history has seen many preferences for women's weight. Nature alone would favor those who had a bit of meat on the bone, as they would have the resources to nurse young, survive starvation, and even be fertile in the first place (women who are too thin cease to menstruate). But at different periods in time, people have considered fat women, thin women, plump women as the ideal of beauty -- it keeps changing.

I applaud your effort to start a discussion, but I would also be a bit more careful with my analysis. The time and place that evolutionary psychology refers to vastly predates fiat currency ("women want older men who will leave them a lot of money when they die" -- sorry, not quoting you exactly here, i just remember you mentioned money) or even human lifespans of 60 years ("18 year old women with 60 year old men").

[qwertz]

^

So what you're saying, solosiam, is that we should stop and examine our morals so we can assess whether we should guilt trip before we have a quickie?

I do believe that for the majority of men, the guilt trip is conveniently left until after the act.

And I'm not taking a moral stand here, having trangressed a time or two in my life with women much younger than myself.

Funny thing, I never felt guilty.

P.S. CG, I was never into large bosoms but I confess to having a weakness for the athletic build, especially when underpinned by long legs (this does not mean I'm into lady boys however).

Edited August 29, 2007 by qwertz

[Kimera]

What I actually think goes on in most Old Farang Guy/Young Thai Woman relationships is:

The old guy is looking for companionship and someone to take care of him, the woman is looking for companionship and someone to take care of her (and often her child-ren from an earlier relationship)

This is not some unthought primeval instinct but something they have both thought about, perhaps even discussed together.

So they get together and stay together.

I know many such relationships and contrary to your 'theories' the women in these relationships are almost without exception faithful to the old guy they are marrried to/living with.

Sadly I don't think the same can be said of many of the guys in such relationships, my observation is that if there is cheating going on it is usually the western guy cheating on his Thai wife - I know and have known far too many guys married to Thai women who are only too happy to 'butterfly' when the woman who loves them is not looking.

Well posted

[somtaamgaiyang]

Let us not forget the existance of the Mia Noi in Thai culture.

This is to some extent not quite a mistress in that the girl is meant more or less to be obligated to be faithful, and in return the pua yai provides shelter and finance. This whole pursuit of older men to create security has been in Thai culture for many generations and whilst politely frowned upon, is tacitly more acceptable than in the West. In the countryside, unnoficial polygomy still exists.

In pure Buddhism, and please correct me if I am wrong, women are not supposed to have possesion of the 5 deadly sins, one being lust. Therefore, sexual attraction in Buddhist ideas is very low in the list of priorities for a woman when selecting a partner.

Hence, being with an older man be it farang or Thai is less of an issue in Thailand than it is in the West.

[Maigo6]

Men are attracted to younger women, it's not rocket science.

I seriously doubt that the majority of men who look at porn sites on the internet are clicking onto the granny sites and jerking off to 60 year old women.

I can't see Mick Jagger or Rod Stewart having a guilt trip about the latest 19 year old model that throws herself at them, would you?

It seems that society is able to accept that Rock Stars have women young enough to be their grandaughters, yet Harry the Lorry driver from Bradford who has a young wife is viewed as a man that should feel guilty and ashamed.

I think it's pure envy, most know they can never be in the same League as Mick or Rod status wise, but feel equal to or above Harry the Lorry Driver and are pizzed off that Harry has a young women, and they don't.

Would they concern themselves with Harry's relationship if Harry's wife was 25 years older than Harry ?

It's envy!