Pronouncing ง

[wasabi]

For example งาน work or ไง

When I say words beginning with ง Thai people say it sounds like น. I have a lot of trouble pronoucning an N and a G sound together. Though I can say words ending in ง just fine for example แพง but as soon as I try to put that ending sound in the front it all goes wrong.

What I'd like are technical details on how to pronounce this. The closest I've come is pulling my tongue back trying to narrow my throat and forcing air out nose, but it comes out like nyahn for for งาน not quite the g sound required.

Before I had trouble pronouncing ต but since it was explained to put your tongue between your teeth and smile a little i can do it. That's the kind of info I'm looking for.

Thanks

[Rikker]

I'll try approaching this from the standpoint of articulatory phonetics, and hope it is helpful.

In pronouncing this (or any) sound, consider two important pieces of information:

Place of articulation

Manner of articulation

The sound of ง is pronounced with the tongue touching the soft palate (that is the place of articulation), and it is pronounced by expelling air through the nasal cavity (that's the manner of articulation).

I would guess that tongue position is your problem. To help you pronounce ง correctly, compare it with other sounds that have the exact same place of articulation. In English, these are /g/ and /k/. In Thai, it's ก, ค, etc. Move your tongue back as if you were going to so say a word like "go". When you prepare to say "go," you should notice that your tongue forms a seal so that no air comes out until you expel it in a sudden burst. So /g/ has the identical *place* of articulation as ง, but has a different manner of articulation of articulation. So prepare to say /g/ again, but this time, instead of letting air come out through your mouth, relax your throat so that the air comes out through your nose instead. It's critical here that your tongue *does not move* from where you first positioned it. You'll know your doing it right if while you are saying the sound ง, and you plug your nose, no air comes out of your mouth. That is, the air is blocked.

ง shares the same manner of articulation with น and ม, but they each have different places of articulation. That is, for each different nasal sound ง น ม, you form a seal, blocking air from flowing out of your mouth, and let it flow through your nose instead. So the trick is to form the seal in the right place. If you form it with your lips, the sound is ม. If you form it with your tongue right behind your top teeth, the sound will be น. And if you form the seal against the soft palate at the back of your mouth, the sound will be ง. If you're not moving your tongue far enough back, and forming the seal at the hard palate, the sound will be like "ny", like the Spanish ñ in word like "año".

Good luck, and keep it up. You'll get it.

Edited June 25, 2006 by Rikker

[Bobcat]

Rikker, that was brilliant. I found your explanation absolutely fascinating. I had never noticed any of this before. Thank you very much, indeed. Do you have similar tips for the difference between ด and ต, one the one hand, and บ and ป, on the other. I have had, and still have to some degree, certain issues in the proper distinction between with these two sets of consonants.

[wasabi]

Awesome explanation, exactly the information I was looking for. Just to be certain, the soft palate is the area just behind the roof of the mouth the beginning of the back of the throat? So to form the block you have to use the middle/back of your tongue, not the tip.

[English Noodles]

Rikker, you are a god mate. I have been trying to get that sound for nearly 2 years now and have never been able to make every time i try. Sometimes i could and other times i could not. As soon as i read your explanation i had it and can now get it every time. A little bit of practice and i know it will become natural.

Thanks for that, i think this is the sound most westeners have a problem with when learning Thai and no book or person has ever been able to explain it to me.

Your explanation was first class.

Thanks again.

Noodles.

[Tywais]

To add a non-technical comment to this. There is an excercise that I used when I first tried to get the sound right and that was to say "ring" several times in a row and then try to leave the "ri" off. Further on you can add an "oo" sound to expand it to snake for example. This way you can feel the effect the 'ng' sound has on your tongue position.

[wasabi]

Rikker, you are a god mate. I have been trying to get that sound for nearly 2 years now and have never been able to make every time i try. Sometimes i could and other times i could not. As soon as i read your explanation i had it and can now get it every time. A little bit of practice and i know it will become natural.

Thanks for that, i think this is the sound most westeners have a problem with when learning Thai and no book or person has ever been able to explain it to me.

Your explanation was first class.

Thanks again.

Noodles.

Same here! I have a Thai co worker I've been trying to say words with ง to for 2 years as a test if I can pronounce ง I try to say งง, everytime he has a laugh and says no. For the first time in 2 years I said it and he said yes at long last. For me the bit about how you block air when saying "go" was most helpful.

Bobcat as far as ด and ต goes this is my understanding. Most likely you can say ด just fine since it is the same as the English letter D, however ต lik ง doesn't have an exact match as a single letter in English.

Think about where your tongue is when you say D, behind your top teeth. When you say T your tongue is between your teeth. Other things are going on as well but honestly I'm not sure exactly. Anyhow, put your tongue between your teeth as if you were going to say t, but instead try to say the letter D, forcing your tongue to stay between your teeth, you should get a sound that sounds like dt which is the right sound.

Edited June 26, 2006 by wasabi

[papillon]

I, too, welcome Rikker's explanation, but my findings on 'd' and 'dt' (sorry I don't have Thai characters) don't agree with Wasabi's explanation. Simply, my tongue is not between my teeth for an English 't' - or, it seems for any other consonant sound - that is, I don't lisp! After experimenting for half an hour I find myself hard-pushed to say how I produce the difference between 'd' and 't'. I seems, however, that the tongue is in very much the same position behind the teeth, but the 'd' comes more from the throat (particularly for an initial 'd') and the 't' is more an expulsion of air from the front of the mouth.

Perhaps this needs taking with a pinch of salt. I have a very long bridge row of teeth in the front of my upper jaw. Perhaps the dentist placed them at an angle that differs rather from what Nature originally gave me! In fact, I would say that for both letters the tip of my tongue is not against the back of my teeth, but on the meeting point of the palate and the teeth. Anyway, I can still eat and speak!

[BangnaBound]

Rikker, you are a scholar and a gentleman. I’ve have been working on that sound for a non trivial part of my life. After that explanation and a little practice it’s finally starting to come out. Thank you so much.

[meadish_sweetball]

I, too, welcome Rikker's explanation, but my findings on 'd' and 'dt' (sorry I don't have Thai characters) don't agree with Wasabi's explanation. Simply, my tongue is not between my teeth for an English 't' - or, it seems for any other consonant sound - that is, I don't lisp! After experimenting for half an hour I find myself hard-pushed to say how I produce the difference between 'd' and 't'. I seems, however, that the tongue is in very much the same position behind the teeth, but the 'd' comes more from the throat (particularly for an initial 'd') and the 't' is more an expulsion of air from the front of the mouth.

Perhaps this needs taking with a pinch of salt. I have a very long bridge row of teeth in the front of my upper jaw. Perhaps the dentist placed them at an angle that differs rather from what Nature originally gave me! In fact, I would say that for both letters the tip of my tongue is not against the back of my teeth, but on the meeting point of the palate and the teeth. Anyway, I can still eat and speak!

Agreed. I do not place the tongue *between* my teeth when saying ต . The tip (and a little more) of the tongue touch the alveolar ridge (the ridge behind my upper front teeth, before the hard palate) in the same manner as when I pronounce a ด. The difference IMO, is that when I produce a ต, I tense up my tongue and build up more pressure behind its tip before the release, but when I say ด my tongue is quite lax.

I am sure Rikker can do an even better explanation of this too.

[meadish_sweetball]

Rikker, that was brilliant. I found your explanation absolutely fascinating. I had never noticed any of this before. Thank you very much, indeed. Do you have similar tips for the difference between ด and ต, one the one hand, and บ and ป, on the other. I have had, and still have to some degree, certain issues in the proper distinction between with these two sets of consonants.

As for บ and ป, the difference is similar. If we follow Rikker's description, the place of articulation is between the lips for both sounds. The manner of articulation is different in that the บ is articulated with lax lips like English /b/ , but ป is articulated with tense lips.

As with 'ng', this sound does not occur as an initial consonant in English. It does however occur as the second sound of words beginning with 'sp', such as 'spy', 'spoof', 'spin', etc.

If you can hear the difference between the sound of p in 'spy' and the sound of p in 'pie', then you'll know the difference between ป and พ in Thai.

[Rikker]

Well, I'm right overwhelmed at the outpouring of goodwill for that humble post! I am running a bit behind on clerical tasks, but I will get a new post up soon with some of my thoughts on the difference between ด/ต and บ/ป. Meadish and Papillon have already made good posts on the topic.

In the meantime, I reiterate that I'm glad the explanation was useful. Cheers!