Missionaries & Problems They Cause.

[p1p]

I would like to pick up a point from the Akha thread and run with it a little bit.

Amy, our admirable, soon-to-visit young missionary asked:

"My trip over to Thailand and talking with people is just the same as me travelling across the street and talking to my Mormon neighbours, is it not?"

I fear this rhetorical question is just a little naive.

The problem is that there is a whole world of difference between travelling across the street and talking to your Mormon neighbours, and coming to Thailand to talk with the local Thai, or indigenous peoples.

When you chat with your Mormon neighbours, you are talking as equals in all but your faith or beliefs. You live in the same society, eat the same, or similar, breakfast, lunch and dinner and have pretty much the same education and life experiences.

When you talk with the locals here, you come from a completely different world; of refrigerators and air conditioning, microwaves and air travel, instant food and designer goods that could not even be imagined by many members of your audience. You will awe them with everything you have and you are; your education, your clothing, the very way you hold yourself. There is no possible way that your chat with the ?natives? could ever be anything but a talk down to them. They will inevitably believe that all they have to do to be like you is to embrace your god (sic.), rather than their own.

Therein lies the rub. The Gods they have grown up with teach their followers to be self sufficient. They teach care of the environment. They teach the importance of the family unit and care of and respect for elders. They teach the natural laws and balance of ?cause & effect?. (As you sow shall you reap, Proverbs 39; if you like.) When these Deities are replaced with your one god, they are taught that their sins are forgiven if your god is accepted. They are further taught that the power of prayer is paramount. If they desire a good harvest, a mobile phone, an easy life, all they need do is pray and ?Jesus? will provide. Consequently they forget the teachings they grew up with. The old Gods that lived in the rocks and trees which protected their watershed do not exist, so when they are offered easy money to harvest the logs there, they do so, and suffer and die due to the resulting floods, landslides and lack of water in the dry season.

You see, all religious beliefs develop primarily to explain natural order and to help people live within the environment or ecosystem in which they find themselves. Gods get angry because trees are cut down, therefore they send floods or water shortages. Gods say ?Protect watershed areas.?

When these Gods are replaced with the omnipotent Judaeo-Christian troika, all their original Gods? teachings get discarded and immense socio-cultural problems result. Families get torn apart. Aboriginal and indigenous peoples become addicted to alcohol and drugs. Ecosystems are destroyed and immense suffering is caused all round.

Accepted, the missionaries who bear ultimate responsibility for these disasters believe they are doing good, when in fact they are acting out of blasé ignorance of the ruinous results of their ministry. A crime remains a crime whether executed with evil intent or simply with lack of understanding. This is why so many of us expatriates who know, understand and truly love our adopted homelands and their peoples are so vocal and strongly opposed to any type of Judaeo-Christian evangelical mission work. We live here and have to live with and try to mitigate the consequences of the well meaning but sadly misplaced missions.

Please come, look, listen and learn; but do not preach or try to teach or convert our people. You will never fully understand the long term effects your well meaning but totally misguided ministrations will have.

I should point out that I am not anti-Christian. Indeed I once studied in a Seminary with a view to taking up holy orders in the Anglican Church.

[Guest IT Manager]

My father, a minister, said to me when I was about 12, "look in the mirror and tell me what you see"

"I said my eyes, my mouth and my ears"

He said "God had a plan based on mathematics, and gave you in proper number, 2 Ears to listen to what is said, 2 Eyes to see what is to be learned, and 1 mouth, to ask questions to support the other gifts. Use them in like measure my son"

Missionaries seem to forget that to proselytise is to TELL people, not ASK.

Good one P1P.

[Ajarn]

Great articles in the post on giving from a Buddhist perspective, and I think appropriate to the discussion on Missionary 'giving'...

http://www.bangkokpost.com/en/Outlook/28Mar2004_out01.php

http://www.bangkokpost.com/en/Outlook/28Mar2004_out02.php

[et33.com]

i am not anti-christian

but look at the facts

for hundreds of years

wherever the christians goes

the land is raped for resources

and the people forgot how to live off their land

and bloodshed follows

all i can say is

the missionaries are truly blind

tell me which church can survive off the land

without destroying it...

[allnew]

Ok. I don't understand how I'm not getting my point across. When I had first posted, it was on what? Not judging others. I didn't mention ministry or anything of that sort.

And what one person in the Buddist vs. Anamst discussion said, I said also. Religion is a way of living, keeps people morally binded, and a reason to keep living.

And while you give me reasons why I should again, not say anything, I must say that my point was to show you that regardless of religious background, we can all help each other. Even, as you say, if I come from the country of blow-dryers, microwaves, etc.

I was speaking with my teacher (the buddist one) and asked him, 'do you ever think you can have buddist beliefs with a Christian faith?' My answer...yes.

I don't know if that is a hard concept to grasp but here's what I'm saying. Of the 8 things buddists practice, I would like to say I also practice. So...am I buddist? No. Because the Christianity faith also believes and teaches some of the same things.

Yes Christianity believes in one God. That is what is taught, and that is what I also believe. And yes, buddists believe in, I suppose, many gods or gods that live in things. Everything has a soul (i.e. humans, animals, bugs) so they are respectful to everything.

I am going to be late for class so I must be going, but I have more to say. So I'll be back a little later.

[allnew]

Now, I have a few minutes during my lunch.

I understand what everyone is trying to tell me. I understand how it would seem that missionaries, Christians, whatever push beliefs or have hidden agendas. I comprehend that for someone to tell another (whether they be poor children or Bill Gates) that they are going to ###### for living the way they do, is wrong. I get it.

But then again, I never believed or agreed with that. What I'm trying to say is that not EVERY missionary is after the same outcome nor does EVERY missionary use the same technique. As I stated before, it is saddening to know that there are bad examples for each category of people. But what some of you are telling me is that ALL of the Christianity belief or belief in Christ people are wrong.

Isn't that kinda hypocritical? If you respect Buddists, respect Christians. If not for the only reason of being respectful. As humans. Religion or no religion.

I understand the whole preserving the history, customs, etc. But what you're also saying is that I cannot help because I do not have the capability to separate my faith from my ability to help. Or do I have that wrong? Please do tell.

There really is no solution to this whole arguement. Along with my views, your views are also strong, I have no doubt. (and I don't mean anyone in particular). No solution unless we start to understand respect is what we all need and need to be willing to give.

Amy

[aaaaaa]

well , unforunately nowdays missionaries most of times more concerned about income - not even outcome....

many get certain material benefits for their missionary service. may be not immidiate payament - but something esle in long term, yet still material..

and slo have not even enough proper idea about what is realy that they prozeletising about?

briefly : there are very few real followers of any particular religion nowdays - what to speak missionaries. coz the first group - who at least understands enough what they beileve and practice (nowdays it mostly only beliefs - no practice) themselves - in other words preach good enough to themselves... and those who can be successfull enough and experienced in that - then only they can try to approach others with some message, whatever it is - sepecially if it suppose to be sort of divine!

not all those teenager boys who roam all over asia in white shirts....

how is that proverb goes?

u can speak, but u can't teach untill u practice what u preach !

or something like that

[aaaaaa]

I understand the whole preserving the history, customs, etc. But what you're also saying is that I cannot help because I do not have the capability to separate my faith from my ability to help. Or do I have that wrong? Please do tell.

it is said that the best way to help someone else - is to help oneself first of all....

and what do u mean by ur last phrase here: "separate my faith from my ability to help" ?

[Guest IT Manager]

Amy you need to accept one thing. I have no problem with you..personally. I ask and I accept it may not be clear, that you come here, look, listen and shut up. Say nothing. Bring nothing. Give nothing.

Then leave.

When you are older and have got over your xtianity, come back and do it again.

[p1p]

Amy, I am short of time, so I will post a fuller reply later.

Ok. I don't understand how I'm not getting my point across. When I had first posted, it was on what? Not judging others. I didn't mention ministry or anything of that sort.

I fear you have touched a bit of a raw nerve. Many of us who make our lives in and around the North of Thailand have a tendency to be very touchy when Christianity is brought up. We often find ourselves having to clear up yhe messes that have been left behind by ultra right wing evangelical Christian fanatics. The do immense damage to societies here in the name of their god.

I am sorry if the posts you have read in reply to yours have been a bit strong, but you must read them in the context above.

But what some of you are telling me is that ALL of the Christianity belief or belief in Christ people are wrong.

Of course we recognise there are "good Christians" who truly "love their neighbours," but they are very much in the minority here. Again, hence our touchiness on the subject.

Yes Christianity believes in one God. That is what is taught, and that is what I also believe. And yes, buddists believe in, I suppose, many gods or gods that live in things. Everything has a soul (i.e. humans, animals, bugs) so they are respectful to everything.

Buddhism does not preach about any god or gods. The essence of the teaching is that we are each, individually, fully responsible for our own actions and will be rewarded or suffer accordingly. Karma, or cause and effect, if you will. It further teaches that the vast part of our suffering comes because we have desires. If we can get rid of our desires, we will end our suffering.

The Gods or spirits previously mentioned are manifestations of the ancient Animist or Brahmin faith, which is still followed by a substantial proportion of the predominantly rural population in Thailand, while they also pay homage to the Triple Gem of Buddhism. ( The Buddha, His Teachings, and the order of Monks who follow him.)

I understand the whole preserving the history, customs, etc. But what you're also saying is that I cannot help because I do not have the capability to separate my faith from my ability to help. Or do I have that wrong? Please do tell.

I think you have misunderstood the majority of these posts. My personal belief is that Faith is a personal thing which is best kept personal. Doing good works and helping others is totally seperate and unconnected to one's faith. One should be able to do good regardless whether one id a follower of Christ, Mohamed, The Buddha or nobody. Doing good should always be an end in and of itself and any attachment of strings automatically negates the good one is doing. Feed a starving man : Good. Insist he learn from the Bible : Wrong. However, to make a Bible available is OK as long as there is never any coercion whatsoever.

[allnew]

Why is it, that I will get over my Christianity? I can't make this last?

[chanchao]

Could be just a phase you're going through. ;-)

[francois]

Why is it, that I will get over my Christianity? I can't make this last?

your faith and beliefs are rooted to your heart.

get yourself a life and live by your own book, not by theirs.

your faith and beliefs can be your fuel, not your engine.

walk on a hearted way, the others are worthless.

"give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough.

give the world the best you have anyway"

M.Theresa {quoted from main text}

francois

[ChiangMaiThai]

There are two massive fallacies in Christianity. One is the notion that he who does not 'accpet Jesus into his heart' will go to he#l for all of eternity. Talk about scare tactics! Where do I sign up? The other is that one can not ask the question 'wait, does that make any sense at all?' because you are taught not to question your faith. Whenever your true spirit kicks in and says 'hey, what about...?', you are taught to be strong and not give in as your 'faith' is being tested.

I have been close with a number of Christians in my life who were otherwise good people. At certain moments they admitted that it indeed doesnt make sense that a 2 year old Hindi who passes away will go to he#l forever. It doesn't make any sense that Buddha and Ghandi are currently buring in the flames of he#lwhile a rapist who accpeted Jesus is in heaven. After getting somewhat flustered they always cut the conversation short stating that that is what the bible says and they will not question their faith.

And that is the crux of it, for the average Christian, even contemplating the idea that they might be wrong, is too intense and too frightening. They have built up a nice little artificial world and they don't want to see it crumble. It is far more comfortable and convenient to decide that you know the truth and have nothing more to learn that to realize that you know nothing and the search for 'God' or meaning or truth is a personal journey. You are all alone. Professing your 'faith' in a dead man and a 2000 year old book that has been manipulated by countless political powers since it was first written, will not land you a spot in a magical heaven any more than strapping a bomb to yourself and killing innocent people will buy you a ticket to a paradise full of virgins.

Travelling to a foreign land with the express purpose of convincing others to accept and adopt your beliefs is the pinnacle of arrogance. Doing so with the belief that you are doing the work of God is height of ignorance.

[ChiangMaiThai]

By the way p1p, I agree with you completley.

[chanchao]

> It doesn't make any sense that Buddha and Ghandi are

> currently buring in the flames of he#lwhile a rapist who

> accpeted Jesus is in heaven.

Well, as Buddha was born some 543 years before Jesus, I'd say Buddha is off the hook on that one.

Also there's many flavours of Christianity, and scare tactics were never a part of it where I came from. Also I don't think JC himself ever told anyone they'd burn in ###### unless they follow him..

> Professing your 'faith' in a dead man and a 2000 year old book

> that has been manipulated by countless political powers since it

> was first written, will not land you a spot in a magical heaven any

> more than strapping a bomb to yourself and killing innocent

> people will buy you a ticket to a paradise full of virgins.

Yes. And I think virgins are over-rated anyway.

> Travelling to a foreign land with the express purpose of convincing

> others to accept and adopt your beliefs is the pinnacle of arrogance.

> Doing so with the belief that you are doing the work of God is height

> of ignorance.

Yes, sure, but.. The consequence of free speech in combination with freedom of religion means that people are perfectly allowed to do just that. And again, there are people coming to Thailand with far more arrogant, or selfish, not to mention downright evil intentions..

Cheers,

Chanchao

[allnew]

Ya know...I just had an epiphany. Ya'll are completely right. I mean, I was off the wall with everything.

I'm so glad you've shown me the light.

I give up.

[chanchao]

That's okay.. Don't let this discussion stop you from asking other questions about Chiang Mai, like where to stay, get around, what/where to eat, etc. Most people would be very happy to answer you.

'Religion' is always a touchy subject that perhaps is best avoided in some cases. Same with discussions on racism, etc. For some reason people always get worked up on that.

[Guest IT Manager]

Why is it, that I will get over my Christianity? I can't make this last?

Most xtians get over it eventually. The ones that don't, can't think for themselves.

[Guest IT Manager]

Could be just a phase you're going through. ;-)

I had that when I was about 18.....

[Guest IT Manager]

I have been close with a number of Christians in my life who were otherwise good people.

Travelling to a foreign land with the express purpose of convincing others to accept and adopt your beliefs is the pinnacle of arrogance. Doing so with the belief that you are doing the work of God is height of ignorance.

Well conjectured points. Bravo.

[Bluecat]

I have been close with a number of Christians in my life who were otherwise good people.

Travelling to a foreign land with the express purpose of convincing others to accept and adopt your beliefs is the pinnacle of arrogance. Doing so with the belief that you are doing the work of God is height of ignorance.

Well conjectured points. Bravo.

Yes, and unfortunately far from over.

Christians did it for centuries and still do it,...

Muslims did it for centuries and still do it,...

The other religions do not do it so far, maybe waiting for their turn,...

What's next?

[Bluecat]

Jeez, I forgot the jews, sorry,...

[maxwasan]

Wonder if Mr George-Porgie will forget them?

[et33.com]

there can be no end to this my friends

except when you truly learn to THINK FOR YOURSELF

what most religions do is that they tell you how to think

what to believe

what you MUST believe

what you must give (that's money factors mostly)

what to dress and even how to fxxk (the cat's)

don't get me wrong

I am not against any group

just base it on facts

most ask their followers to die for the "god"

but god is all powerful right ?

so he/she/it - have no need to ask anyone to die for "god"

it's pure bullshit

after all / aren't the "god" is of endless LOVE

so what's the nonsense of mixing killing and love

most people are scare to death having to think for themselves

from the day you are born

you are told the world is such and such and such and

you must do this and this and this or that piece of shit

sori for the language

okay i confess

i am "more" buddhist

"more" because i studied in great details of at least ten major religions of the past and present and not only that / i join them for at least three months each

the simple reason of being "more" buddhist is because buddha said / do not believe me / find out for yourself / tell me which other major religion said that...

[ChiangMaiThai]

the simple reason of being "more" buddhist is because buddha said / do not believe me / find out for yourself / tell me which other major religion said that...

Exactly.

[chanchao]

Ok, off pretty much off topic but I thought the following is very funny. Note that this is for real, it's NOT a joke site:

http://www.catholicshopper.com/products/in...rt_statues.html

You can actually buy these things.. I think every mission ary family would want some?

Cheers,

Chanchao

[somtaamgaiyang]

My landlady and her entire family are Jehovas witnesses.

My experience with mormon in the Western world was severely limited, however, i have to say that I have never met a more balanced family group in Thailand.

The only time they have ever tried to mention ther faith, was as a wedding present they presented my wife with a jewelry box. As we were unwrapping it, there was inside, very neatly wrapped a book of jehova in English and Thai. I read it. It was indeed a bunch of poppycock.

I was waiting for one of them to mention to my wife if she had read it, however, to this day, 3 years later, no mention of it.

In reflection, I believe the book was given to us more as a blessing for our marriage than anything else, and left it up to us to decide to read it if we liked. I look upon it as a nice gesture rather as opposed to the Mormons who come to my house every couple of months trying to drag me and my family into a disingenuous religious discussion under false pretences.

Rgds,

SGY

[somtaamgaiyang]

Apologies,

They are Johovas witnesses, not mormons

[allnew]

"If the clouds are full of water, they pour rain upon the earth. Whether a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where it falls, there will it lie. Whoever watches the wind will not plant; whoever looks at the clous will not reap. As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the maker of all things." Ecclesiates 11:3-5