twofortheroad

Alien, guest, temporary resident, customer,  what's the deference really.

the "deference" is that some people who are bored to death are too lazy to throw small stones at passing by old ladies. so in order to vent their frustration they open nonsensical threads about aliens and guests in Thailand.

I wouldn't dare throw stones at old ladies. Lovely people. I should know, my Mother is one.

This is just idle chit-chat to while away the quiet moments - harmless banter. Sometimes it leads to an interesting debate, usually it ends up in a heated argumant. Light entertainment either way.

If you have more important things to do - go do them. The fact that you're here, suggests otherwise.

Yep you can buy beer there, I'll try to find out which stadium by sunday morning and let ya know. You can always come and meet up with us for a few beers before.

I saw a beer delivery van driving round the other day promoting the match and it said "700 yr stadium' on it.  The web-site says the same. I'm definitely going, and I'll have room in the car for 4 if anyone needs a lift.

Too often on this forum I see people refer to themselves as 'Guests' in Thailand. It's as if they just popped in for a long weekend to see how everyone is.

What utter rubbish. I've been here for quite a long while and I would never consider myself as a Guest, I'm an Alien.

Discuss.

Probably the best suggestion is for the OP to reinvent himself.

What worked before- isn't working.

So he needs to sit down, figure all his assets and liabilities.

And create a new plan.

I think you may have mis-read my post. I was referring to waiters/waitresses in places that I frequent and small traders in places like the Night Bazaar.

You're not as far off the point as many other posters are. All I was suggesting was leaving a little bit more of a tip in the places that are obviously struggling. Not helping the owner (other than being a customer) but helping in a small way the lower-paid staff for whom small tips make a big difference. No hint of 'throwing money around', just a little bit of sympathy and kindness for the small folk that are feeling the pinch more than most. Admirable people, invariably.

Similarly, I was referring to the small store-owners who make little gains in the high season who are now struggling to sell anything. I know a lot of you see them as vultures, but the majority of traders in the Night Bazaar or Walking Street, for example, make very small profits - there is so much competition. They are mostly just trying to make a little bit extra to supplement their meagre salaries and try to get ahead. Some have good business, but the majority struggle. My suggestion was to not haggle them down to leave a bare bones of profit. Again, I see them as good, honest down-to-earth folk. Diamonds some of them.

Here's an example of what I mean. Let's say they normally sell a shirt for 180, and start off asking for 300 (why not?), and let's assume it cost 80. In good times 150 is their last price, however because they haven't sold anything for two days, they may be desperate and now sell it for 120. That won't be enough to pay rents and stuff but maybe they think it's better than nothing. All I was suggesting was to pay the 150 or 180 which is a fair price for them and you. And don't forget, they are not struggling because of their bad business plan they are struggling because of events beyond their control. Business may well bounce back in 5-6 months time so in the meantime they need to ride out the storm. If you'd like to help them in a small way, that was my suggestion. If you go along with it - good for you, if you don't - fine.

Obviously, the people that see everyone as being out to exploit and rip-them-off and anywhere that charges more than 50baht for a Large Leo as a 'tourist trap*' , this wasn't aimed at you. You're beyond help.

The suggestion that this is in any way patronising ......... what can I say?

What about a song?

'"You left your heart, in San Francisco**

High on a hill ........."

Anyway, let's hope that put's this topic to bed, which is where I'm headed. Good Night.

* I love that term.

**Or London, or Amsterdam, or wherever you came from.

BTW, Is this policy of no political threads started by users in general forum OVER? If so, why does this post still exist?

Temporary Policy In General - Thailand Forum

And more importantly, who cares? 

People who get seven day account suspensions for violating the rule, that's who.

With that post still standing, people don't know whether it is safe and allowed to start such threads again, or not. I would like to but won't until the policy is officially removed.

Sorry, I wasn't aware of that policy. Good to know. Interesting too.

BTW, Is this policy of no political threads started by users in general forum OVER? If so, why does this post still exist?

Temporary Policy In General - Thailand Forum

And more importantly, who cares? 

Not at all, I will tip in most circumstances unless the service is bad. What I'm saying is that a lot of us westerners who are percieved as having stacks of baht are often no better off than their Thai neighbours.

I see. You were just stating the obvious. I thought you were  trying to be relevant. Sorry.

it saddens me to see lifetime dreams destroyed by investments in the tourist related industry.

there are those in Thailand that will say when they had it good they overcharged that may also be true, if one looks at the classifieds for Chiang mai pattaya phuket commercial properties it becomes all to  clear where everything is progressing to investment in Thailand at the moment is a no no all I expect land to grow, a farm as Jim Rogers pushes and mark Faber who loves Chiang mai so much.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. Am I alone in that?

Ordinary Thais are fine - great people - it's just those spoilt by getting fat off brainless farangs who throw their money about and call it charity that get up my nose - you can find them in CM, Phuket, Pattaya and proportionally to a lesser extent in BKK buzzing around their hosts and then slagging them off behind their backs. Outside these areas they are fine.

It's well worth being a brainless farang 'throwing money around' (that phrase AGAIN!) , because besides helping good people in a small way, it also annoys the miserable, negative lost souls that abound.

Whether you agree with me or not is not important (it was just a suggestion), "so long as your happy", as my Mother would say. Somehow, I don't think some of you are.

I'm an Englishman so I have the good breeding not to discuss income levels with my neighbours   but I am still 'sure' that their income levels are higher than mine.

I'll change my last sentence to read "I'm sure they are not giving any more money to their less well off brethren" to silence the more pedantic posters  

All the same, your argument still seems to be that since your neighbours are rich and mean,  you  are justified in not being kind. If they don't do it why should you, right?  By the way, no-one suggested 'throwing money around'. Small tips to those at the end of the food chain that's all. You don't need to rich to do that.

It's amazing to see the heated arguments that can come out of a simple post like this. Nikster got the point entirely right, as did a few others - a simple request to be a little bit more generous on tips and to be not too aggressive on the haggling with business people that may be struggling to make ends meet.. No suggestion of throwing money about or rewarding bad service. Just a simple request to be sympathetic and generous in a small way .Although some people see my point of view, on the whole, most of you would rather find reasons not to help anyone , and give the impression that you wouldn't piss on someone if they were on fire.

One thing that's abundantly clear is that there are a lot of people here that underneath it all,  aren't so happy. Just give them a little scratch and all the bitterness and resentment comes out. I get the impression that most of them don't even like the Thai people and find living here a constant battle to avoid being ripped off and taken advantage of. 

Interesting.

Sometimes a tip is to show gratitude for good service, and sometimes a tip is too show empathy with the lower-paid members of society. When I popped out last night, other than serve me the two drinks with a smile when I asked for them, I needed no other assistance from the staff , but I gave them a 40 baht tip all the same, because I could see that business was slow and their tips were probably down. A trifling amount, but it  was appreciated, I'm sure.  

When it comes to haggling at the street markets, I pay what I consider to be a fair price for me and the vendor. I often know what the lowest price is but I choose to pay a little bit more to help them in their admirable attempts at self-employment (if you've ever owned your own  business you would understand).  I am also aware of how much I should be paying according to my social status. You may be unaware of this, but to hagggle the price to the lowest level would be unbecoming to a person of my standing. That may not apply to you, so don't worry too much if you don't understand it.

I have been here a long time, but if the result of that is that I'm a bit more understanding and sympathetic, then that's a price I'm willing to pay.

Firstly, you said she was nice and polite whilst serving your drinks, yes who wouldnt leave a tip! good service= tip, thats my point! It isnt always about whether the food is the best ( as long as it isnt under cooked and raw or the soft drink warm and flat) then its about the service the staff provide, a small smile goes along way to me. IE if you had a waiter/ess who couldnt care less about you being there then. bad service =NO TIP

It is always situational. Your post implies to tip regardless,based  on the fact you assume we are  better of then them as we have more money. To me better off doesnt always mean those who have more money have a better life!

Secondly if your social standing is so aloft, how on earth would you know all the prices of street goods! Rubbish. More importantly what you think is a fair price is in fact a highly inflatted price because they proberly saw you coming! Example: Mango wood wine holder they offer you 500, and tell you cost is 250(which you believe) so you pay 350. there happy your happy! Reality! factory price20-30 baht Not getting ripped of price 80-150 baht. Ultimately its properly customers like you which have directly resulted in these sole traders losing sales at normal prices, hanging in there for the over inflated ( price and ego) customers!

Thirdly. regardless of ALLEGED social standing, its one thing paying a fair price and something completely different throwing money down the drain, regardless of how much you have!

Firstly, I don't assume that we are  financially better off than them. I know for sure that we are better off than Thai bar/restaurant staff.  Obviously I wouldn't tip if for some strange reason the service was bad, but otherwise I tip, espescially under the current circumstances.

Secondly, I know the price of street goods by virtue of the fact that I've lived in Thailand for so long, aloftly or not. 

Thirdly, I'm fully aware of my social standing in Thailand (not ALLEGED), as everyone should be - it's very important. Also, I wasn't advocating throwing money down the drain, just being a little bit generous and considerate to others less fortunate. Maybe that is wasteful to you. FYI, I'm certainly not wealthy. In fact I am struggling of late, too, hence my understanding of other people's plight.

If my actions offend or inconvenience you, accept my sincere apologies, but I'm afraid you haven't convinced me* to change, and I'm sure the same is true of you. 

*Your Mojo's not working.

[

No, no, I do agree with you. I know you don't have this attitude I mentioned, but many others in this thread do. Sorry I messed up with the quotes...

"Yes, yes, I do agree with you", surely?

I have been here a long time, but if the result of that is that I'm a bit more understanding and sympathetic, then that's a price I'm willing to pay.

It's also that attitude that you shall pay the lowest price humanly possible, as if that is the best way to live your life.

Does it give you happiness?

I mean I understand nobody wants to get taken in, ripped off, etc. But if you already know how low you can go, then paying a bit more is not getting ripped off. It's showing kindness.

I think you missed my attempt at irony there. We're both in total agreement, making the same arguments.

Your previous post agreed with me!!

I generally tip people who I believe are poorly paid and do see the thanks and recognition. I don't haggle as much if I can see that a market trader is having a very slow day and I'm sure they appreciate it. This is dealing with people at the low end of the economy.

Then you have understood the Thai way. It's not that hard a concept - just look at the people, and know that they're normal people like you and me. And know that all the small traders in Thailand have very small margins of profit, thanks to strong competition. The wages are low. That's why food is fantastically cheap here - esp. Chiang Mai, and even by Thai standards.

I can haggle with the best of them - it's extremely simple. If you know the fair price for a goods or service, you offer it, then walk away. Then you always get the lowest price. Since I live here now, I do know the lowest price for most things. Tuk tuks, night bazaar, etc. But once you are over the whole "OMG am I getting ripped off??" phase, you can afford to be more kind. Tip at the restaurant, even tip the tuk tuk. Even at the night market, give them a bit extra. I know, they charge tourists 3x the fair price - but that's probably the only way they can afford the high rents. Do you see any of them getting filthy rich?

So think about it... give them a tip. Good deeds perpetuate, and you're doing your part in making Thailand a better place, one smile at a time. You can learn from the Thais here who often just do this even though they don't have very much themselves. Don't be proud that you got another 10 baht off the tuk tuk fare - be proud you give them a 20 baht tip.

Waiting for the just so clever sarcastic comments to drip in.... I can see 'em coming just now. Or the bitter farangs... "oh noes the Thais hate us"... well don't say "us" including me, because I don't want any part in that. Be kind and your kindness will be returned. I am not a religious person, it's just something that I have seen work over and over again.

Needless to say, I completely agree with the OP. But actually, not just in bad times. At any time.

Spot on. It looks like you've been here too long, as well.

Utter Rubbish,

A tip is to show gratitude for good service!!!!!!! good service=good tip bad service=NO TIP....

As for paying for goods, get the price as low as you can, they will never sell for a loss, remember that!

Maybe the OP has been here too long, his post suggest that in hard times we should pay more! the typical thai way which doesnt promote good business!

Sometimes a tip is to show gratitude for good service, and sometimes a tip is too show empathy with the lower-paid members of society. When I popped out last night, other than serve me the two drinks with a smile when I asked for them, I needed no other assistance from the staff , but I gave them a 40 baht tip all the same, because I could see that business was slow and their tips were probably down. A trifling amount, but it was appreciated, I'm sure.

When it comes to haggling at the street markets, I pay what I consider to be a fair price for me and the vendor. I often know what the lowest price is but I choose to pay a little bit more to help them in their admirable attempts at self-employment (if you've ever owned your own business you would understand). I am also aware of how much I should be paying according to my social status. You may be unaware of this, but to hagggle the price to the lowest level would be unbecoming to a person of my standing. That may not apply to you, so don't worry too much if you don't understand it.

I have been here a long time, but if the result of that is that I'm a bit more understanding and sympathetic, then that's a price I'm willing to pay.

Ever heard a Thai say kheeniao or kheenok behind your back?

Tipping is part of Thai culture, a way of showing generosity, not mention a way of supporting people less fortunate. When I go out with my Thai friends I'm surprised at how generous they are with their tips, The better of you are there more you are supposed to show it. Tipping is one way, unfortunately arrogance is another, but thats beside the point in this thread.

Spot on. Wealthier Thais tip to show kindness and generosity and I do the same for the same reason.It's only small amounts- 20 baht here and there - but I do get the impression that it 's appreciated and they see it for what it is.

As a small example, I just got back from a bar, where I met a few nice guys, had a few fun games of darts and so had an enjoyable couple of hours. Unfortunately, I'm not drinking at the moment, so my bill was only 60baht for 2 soft drinks. As far as I'm concerned, that is a small amount for a few hours out, so I gave the 40 baht change to the staff as a tip. They weren't busy so it probably helped them in a small way. If that somehow messes it up for some of you guys, I'm sorry, but I'm going with the flow and probably much happier for it.

Certainly better than being a miserable tight-arse anyway.

Well another big game is upon us, the scores went in the favour of Chiang Mai last time out 2 weeks ago, so now theres only 1 point seperating the top 3 teams, Chiang Mai(3rd Place) are playing Pichit(2nd Place)at home this Sunday and according to the website its at the 700 year stadium, 6pm kick off, but as we know things change. If you've not been before its a great evening out and if anyone fancy's a drink before, a group of us usually meet in The Red Lion about 4pm before heading to the stadium about 5.30pm.

That sounds like fun, count me in.

Can't LCM51 chip in a bit? Don't want to point fingers or anything....

 If you were trying to be vague, you were very successful.

what does it mean? Who is LCM51, your big brother? Don't you have an opinion? Can't you give us some Insight?

I agree with this a little, so to help the bars etc, Ive decided to have 3 pints instead of 2 next time im in a bar in town, thats my little contribution. I'll even start it this Sunday before the Chiang mai game in my bar of choice 

That's the spirit!! (or, in your case beer).

Chiang Mai may be a lot quieter than the last few years but it's still a lot busier than when I arrived. Despite this there are farangs everywhere here. I can't move without bumping in to one.

My ideas of charity don't extend to donating to businesses when their profits are down.

Op either has head in clouds or is perhaps on a power trip. In any case, was in town the other night - Moon Muang/Anusarn Market - and seemed business as usual.

Op neither has his heads in the clouds or is on a power trip. It's  abundantly clear that tourism is well down. I would guess that it is between 40% to 50% down on this time last year. Future bookings are also dwindling. Maybe some other local business owners can confirm that. The fact that one or two bars or areas are busy doesn't hide that fact .

Are you for real?

Apparently. I'm sure you are too.

This is the dumbest suggestion I have heard in a while.

A seasonal business that can not survive a few months of lull is not much of a business.  They *should* close.  When things are right, different operators with start new businesses or old operators will reopen.  It's an equilibrium.  If there is no demand, it's silly to subsidize something that is not needed.

The fall in trade is not just seasonal. It is because of the events in Bangkok and just like the Bali Bombs, it will take a long while for business to pick up. I'm not talking about subsidising peoples business, I'm talking about not screwing the last baht of profit out of a small trader that is struggling to pay their rent, and tipping the nice kids that are paid a pittance in small restaurants, who can not make ends meet due to lower tips. The town is way down on tourist arrivals - as much as 50% at a guess. It is traditionally still the low-season, but it is more like a no-season. I'm just suggesting people be a bit more generous. It's not the answer to all the woes but if it gives a little bit of relief to someone, that's not so dumb. It might even make you feel good. 

started, very heavy now.........im not a professional, just talk weather like everyone else

Like every other Kiwi and Brit you mean. It's all because of the 'four seasons in one day' syndrome.

It's not as appropiate in Thailand though. The dry season is dry, the hot season is hot, and it rains a lot in the rainy season. A bit boring, but old habits die hard I suppose.

 It's all but finished here in WG - just spittin'. 'Appen it'll turn out nice yet.

Stanley holloway - Three 'alfpence a foot