thailand49

One read these responses from government representatives and one can see clearly why nothing is ever done because one has to embrace and truly believe there is a problem before one can actually do something about it! And if, a official would actually step forward and say and do something it would clearly point at the Thais population that they don't actually know how to drive safely! They would tar and feather their reps!

What is a handbook going to do since the visitor and tourist isn't the one doing the driving!

Watch the Thai people who actually have the ability to change thing and watch them drive I have in Pattaya! Watch the officials coming out of City hall, watch the teacher coming or leaving the schools, watch the police, watch the workers at the hospital, watch the emergency workers etc.. etc.. these groups have the greatest impact to fix the problem but they talk about the problem and that is it!

I have teaching creditials for commercial vehicles, trucks, buses, towing aircrafts and motorbike license through the California Highway Patrol school before living here and if I was to give a driver test to anyone of these groups based on their own testing method I would fail 9 out of 10 people from the above group if I gave them a driving test instead of their own method,driving in circles!

When you have a culture that believes that driving is a Right! and not a Privilege you have a problem!

When you have a culture that believes that using your vehicle to move or scare another driver to move out of your way there is a problem.

When you have drivers that have no idea what a double yellow line is for? you have a problem?

When you have drivers that have no idea what to do when a emergency vehicle needs to get by you have a problem?

When you have drivers and police that have no idea why you don't sit on top of railroad tracks you hae a problem?

When you have drivers that have no idea what the speed limit is you have a problem.

In the end, when the people who run this country and can actually do something but truly don't know their own driving habits YOU GOT NOTHING BUT HOT AIR LIKE THE WEATHER IN THAILAND!

THE LAND OF SMILE ISN'T AS IT SEEMS! ITS IS THE LAND OF THE DEATH! UNTIL IT HITS THEIR POCKET BOOK! LIKE OTHERS HAVE SAID " STAY AWAY "

Chris1970,

Here is the information I got from my brother: As mentioned they are located in Bangkok across the Soi or Street from the US Embassy.

Her name is Virigina Ly? Their company is TSL, Her cell is 02-2633963, Office: 02-251-3130, 063200653, give those a try and good luck!

Chris1970,

Your question and situation is or was very similar to my brother who has lived in Thailand for over 10 years along with myself.

After years of listening to others especially from other Thais, " they have a friend who speak English and stuff " gets real frustrating " you want to throw your hands up finally a few years ago found a company in Bangkok across the street from the U.S. Embassy who can and will handle all your needs.

I personally interviewed them and found it refreshing that the owners were Thai, raised majority of their lives in the States, Las Vegas and San Francisco and even went to my old High School in S.F., refreshing to speak to a Thai and feel like I was talking to another Farang.

Right now I'm in the States on a short holiday and when I return the first of the month will forward you the business card for them. This is a legit large office business! Not some guy working in the back room and his English is less than minimum!

There are many ways to stay in Thailand getting around the requirements? Before doing any DNA stuff on your own check with your Embassy before proceeding with DNA, they have their own recommendation for DNA testing which would streamline the process for you instead of back tracking. Instead of jumping around which is normal, which is exactly what we did, if you can wait for the information?

Today, I saw for the first time a bike made by

Zongshen Ryuka, it is a 200 CC, aircool, carb, and no disc brake for the rear, and there were four beautiful colors offered.

For sometime now, going thru midlife crisis? I was looking into a bigger bike that what I using now 110 Honda Click, O.k. don't laugh it does have bigger tires on it but mostly it is a work horse and dependable.

In the end, I narrow it down to two bikes based on many factors... CBR 150, but the bike for a small old guy like me was the increase weight from the last model, clutch, and passenger seat was uncomfortable since I have to take my son around. So based on need and a bigger engine I settle on a PCX, actually a nice comfortable ride. Then I saw the Ryuka today at a second hand Mityon shop, it is smaller lighter version of the CBR 150, much lighter and one isn't hunch over like the CBR.

Just reading what everyone is writing... even before... I have so many questions. Although service warranty is 3 years.. I have concerns will it even last 3 years, if it breaks down, where am I going to service it, parts, how long to get one? etc....the price is only 59.000 baht.

Because of the price I thinking whether I should take a chance?? Any comments???

Buy a little gold every month

So where and how do you suggest we buy it ? I really am interested in this suggestion.

was curious too from another thread what one would do with gold bars and such - one cannot eat gold can they? - and was wondering about 'cutting bars into pieces', the following concept of breakable gold bars was mentioned:

https://www.valcambi...com/Charts.aspx

anyways, although no expert (note to hardenedsoul: I'm just a curious layman re. economy etc.) I don't see how carrying a bunch of gold under the mattress will help me if currencies start failing; maybe I'm better off raising chicken, ducks & growing food which I could then exchange for gold ( or whatever new temporary new 'currency') for a fraction of the 'cost' it would be now, no?

As for my relatively short life experience - i'm only about forty - I've noticed that these 'shit hitting the fan' scenarios tend to happen in slow motion (unfortunately so as our life spans are relatively short!)

I don't buy this whole 'buy gold now or you will be doomed' kind of thing, I don't see how it would work in practical terms - how was gold used when USSR collapsed or during Asian and Argentinian currency crisis?

Given a doomsday scenario I feel much more comfortable with stuff people would really need to survive such as food or gas. Just my opinion and open to sound information / advice about why I should buy gold now and how to go about it.

The way I go about the economy these days is I try to inform myself as much as possible, I try not to get carried over by fear and carry 3 currencies in several banks / countries and use them to my advantage. Should anything go very wrong somewhere, some trend should surface and I'll take action from there.

Sokh Dee

Ok, let's see. Let's imagine that the shit does indeed hit the fan.

Is today's society more likely to exchange gold coins for goods and services or return to barter-based transactions with livestock and vegetables being the currency of the day?

Personally, I don't think that paper money will become worthless in the short to medium term but I do believe that all of them will continue to weaken against gold.

The Asian financial crisis, while pretty darned serious, didn't occur at a time when the global financial system was in the parlous state it's in now. It was possible for the system to cope but try it now and see what happens. No one - America, Europe, Britain can ever hope to repay their debts unless they inflate their way out. Yes, I know that, looking at official inflation numbers, it looks like all the QE, all the bailouts, all the financial engineering has worked reasonably well but the man in the street with fuel bills, petrol bills, food bills and a deposit savings account will say otherwise . . . and not in a polite way.

I think it's best to trust what you can see and hear in the real world and ignore the bullshit in the media.

All those jokers who said gold was topping out at $1,000 are looking pretty stupid right now.

If you want proof of gold's usefulness, just look at what happened in Iceland at the start of the crisis; any Icelander who owned gold at that time was sitting very pretty indeed.

I think you are right to a certain extend? Gold is important but I think I can safely say that every economic expert will tell you don't put all your eggs in one basket. That when you compare the stock market and gold.. gold looses historically.

The reason we use paper is it is just too dam_n heavy to carry gold LOL, Just ask the 49ers who panned for gold? if there are any left and we aren't talking about the S.F. 49ers?

I always think about gold and these discussion can it really happen? We are living in the 21st century and not back a century ago? To me this is in the same line as those who want to apply the Bible to today and those in America who talk about the 2nd amendment about having guns. I have tons and collect them myself.. like to shoot the off, the bigger the bigger the bigger the hole it makes the better. I get off on them! But really when I listen to these idiots about restrictions and such any person with half a brain knows we aren't living in George Washington time and the British isn't coming. And the country is going to be taken over! In the Sixty we were worried about the Russian coming to evade us built bomb shelters etc....

We need gold but really get real and get with the times?

When I first came to Thailand 20 years ago the Can $ was worth 20 Baht.

5 years ago it was worth 34.

Now it is worth 30.

Notice any predictable pattern?

No, nor do I.

No one can tell you which way a currency will go against any other currency (except maybe Zimbabwe).

35 years ago gold went to $900 an ounce.

Then it dropped to $200 an ounce.

Today? $1700.

Notice a pattern?

No nor do I.

Is there any point to this post?

Yes - life is unpredictable. Don't expect otherwise.

Easily explainable, USD/THB was pegged at 25 to USD until 1997, after the crash is soared and now it';s getting back to where it should be, a fairly predictable cycle I think, reverting to the norm..

You are right and wrong.. the big difference today 2013 from 1997, is you don't have China, you don't have Vietnam, You don't have Malay, you don't have Indonesia. you don't have Burma, there is just too much completition for Thailand to deal with. Just hope you are wrong and I'm right? We alll have been spoil, I just wish they would spoil me again?

i think its time a few expats pulled their heads out of the dark hole and looked around ... trying to predict what the baht is going to do is a waste of time ..perhaps spend the time analyzing what is happening in the country you came from ..

1/ America ? its bankrupt and may recover in 25 years

2/ Japan ..basket case beyond help

3/ Europe ..( greece , portugal ,italy , spain , ireland, and soon the UK one step behind the states ..not pretty reading) and the germans are getting ready to jump ship

4/ Aussie ... over cooked economy, but strong commodity base may save it the same fate as others .. interest rates continue to drop

so the Thai economy to me does not fall into the same boat as many of the above ..keep on hoping for a correction in value but it wont happen

in the short term ..

Don't forget U.S. might be in a mess, people are still pouring money into their market. China, borderline and hiding their economy they have a housing bubble ready to burst. That country is one big Nevada and Arizona?

Japen might be a mess, but we are still complaining about having to complete with the Japanese at the go go's right? Your list 2,3,4, will all go before the U.S, in fact #3, already have the Euro should never be what is its that is why the UK wouldn't have any part of it?

Hey what about the Russians, when is their oil going to run out?

I'm no expert on this subject... although I have mutual funds in U.S. and it has risen lately like 15,000 USD in the last month I'm not too concern about the baht.. sure it hits me in the pocket living here less each month that is for sure! totally out of my control. I read the papers as to what the Thai expert are talking and for the last few years I tracked that and what happens right after they speak and try to read between the lines. Each time after they speak I noticed that the baht starts to drop just like it went from 29.44 to other day 29.98, they say they can't do this or that about the market but as far as I'm concern they talk out of both side of their month. This is Asia! Just like China there is some internal malipulation Thailand can't afford to let the baht get too strong the days are different now they have too much competition around them to think they can complete. Just look at what they did with the rice scream?

One thing about this country they never seem to amaze me that they always seem to shoot themselves in the foot! There was a number of years ago when it was 40/1 and some Thai guy said they should set the baht at 37.00 or something like that I was thinking wouldn't that be great?

Well, got to make up the difference tonight and go with Happy Hour drinks instead of after.

The Thai protestors were not concerned about whether the Russians were operating legally or not – they just wanted them out

I suppose these greedy morons also want the Russian tourists who pay their rip off charges out as well? Idiots.

There are a surprising number of Thai businesses including restaurants etc operating in Russia. I would imagine some of this money makes its way back to Phuket. How about if the Russians decide to kick out all the hardworking Thais in Russia in retaliation because they want them out?

Third world mentality at its worst.

This problem is and was created by the Thai officials in the first place because they turn a blind eye by taking money to line their own personal pockets. The same kind of lining that is ruining Koh Chang, the same kind of lining that allow all the Nigerians to enter Thailand under a student visa and then those so call students are standing just within eyesight on Soi 3,4 on Sukhumvit selling themselves and when it gets out of control they act like they didn't know about it?

As for Thai, working in Russia, I say anywhere in the world if it is done illegal by the laws or that country then it should be closed and if laws have been breached then they should recieve the punishment as deserved and find the government officials who has turn a blind eye to the situation or mismanaged the situation be removed as soon as possible to set a example for the others.

Here is a situation the protesters are asking the same officials to clean up the problem they created!

I must be the only selfish farang in Thailand I would to see the baht where it was 72 to £ when i came to Thailand and transfered all my cash here.

No you aren't because I thinking the same while reading the story and responses! All these replies about the economy but bet your bottom baht that there isn't one person who isn't thinking the same. If today turns out to be like 1997, unless these guys are billionaires they would be like you and me bring more money over to convert and buy! The honest truth is I can't wait!

Why because I have spoken up! I have taken picture throughtout town and send them to local Pattaya papers to indicate the problems I see, which is exactly what I did in the problem I just mentioned at Nernpludwan. In fact, when I was taking pictures on the drain one official rush up to me and spoke some nasty words in Thai like he wanted to fight. I indicated to him the height of the drain and such he just walked away! This is what you have to deal with?

Oh, they are spending money the problem is most of the drains are put incorrectly. My street they put one in but when they did it I could see it wasn't level to drain down to the main pipe instead it was placed draining backward. They didn't care nor did the workers have any idea what they were doing. Then many of the drains in the city are full of said and dirty so unable to drain. Just look at the drains they are putting in on the darkside Soi called Nernpludwan, many of the drains are six inches or more above the surface road so they they are tearing up the road to level the higher place drains but when they finish the road will now be higher on one side so when the rains hard the water will not drain into the drains but down towards he lower end of the road which guess what flood the lower end side.

This offer for help will go no where! First, Thai especially officials just lost face from the suggestion! How do you ask someone to change when they themselves don't embrace the problem. Watch these officials from government offices, police stations, hospital, teachers etc... and watch them drive they are doing the same thing they have been entrusted to enforce. In the end, they don't see anything wrong with the way they drive. It's only when there is a big accident this same guy steps forward and act like he understand what happened then back to the same old which is back to his office with his feet up on the desk. If they really care they would put many of the foreign comments in their Thai newspaper and instead of showing each night on T.V. who died and how they might want to place situation spots showing how stupid they drive!

PS. I'm in Beijing so I have to be careful what I post.

You think Thailand is corrupt. Try this place.

Difference is Thailand touts itself as a democracy which China doesn't!

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where this case is going? just the word " consider " says it all! like should I consider wearing a helmet knowing it is the law?

This case smells of everyone grandstanding to look like they are doing something but in reality they are doing nothing! Clearly just another spoil rotten brat who one day will be the heir to red bull. Certainly the only bull I see is the Bullsh-t that is happening.

Whatever happen to the rich brat kid last year who drove down a Soi, with his 10 million baht car cut a 16 year girl in half? Is he picking up the soap or is he soaking in a hot tub in daddy house drinking and doing coke too, maybe these kids know each other and hangout together killing and lying?

I have a solution, give me 10 minutes with these kids!

Do you have a weapon. If not you might get hurt.

Personally, I got mines I don't know about you? Not everyone like yourself that live here which I do take it up the butt because this is Thailand and people like you are too scared because of the so call BIB or the so call Mafia? There are more than one mafia in this world? Personally I live a low profile here and my motto is do as to others as they do to you! I also, when I have enough! I live by eye for a eye!

This is something that Thais don't seem to understand! They like to treat others like dirt but when they get treated the same way especially by a foreigner they cry foul! If this was my father on the motorbike that was killed, it would take more than 3 million baht to keep me quiet. I would expect justice by their law nothing less and if I don't get it I personally couldn't care less who the father know or who is protecting them I will be looking for payback and the first one in line will be this kid who will wish he was never borned!

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where this case is going? just the word " consider " says it all! like should I consider wearing a helmet knowing it is the law?

This case smells of everyone grandstanding to look like they are doing something but in reality they are doing nothing! Clearly just another spoil rotten brat who one day will be the heir to red bull. Certainly the only bull I see is the Bullsh-t that is happening.

Whatever happen to the rich brat kid last year who drove down a Soi, with his 10 million baht car cut a 16 year girl in half? Is he picking up the soap or is he soaking in a hot tub in daddy house drinking and doing coke too, maybe these kids know each other and hangout together killing and lying?

I have a solution, give me 10 minutes with these kids!

I want is to get one and find out it drinks like my click?

I also plan to replace the original rims with wider ones to 4.25, tires 120/80 130/80 (back) and 110/80 in the front. I would also like to add a disc break for the back wheel and upgrade the shocks. Then I plan to fly up Sukhumvit in the middle of the night 100 plus KM, like I do now just to see if I will pee in my pants or find out if my number is up?

Anyone have any idea to anyof this stuff please add to it and thanks in advance!

Take a minute to think some of these things out. I too like the idea of the 135 cc 4 valve water cooled motor, but I too was told to pay first. no one has them. Where waves are everywhere at every drealer on every corner infront of every 7-11

That goes the same with after market parts. Waves have a ton of parts avalable, Cams Big Bore kits, there is not limit just go pick up a few Thailand biking mags or go to a few shops and look.

Another thaing that put me off the spark (well there were a few) was it came with Allow rims that were very narrow. I am a big guy at 100 kilo and 189 cm tall. I like to change a few things too. But its not as easy as just changing the outer rim size as on a spoke wheel.

There are several people now running around Pattaya with the Huge Wheels and tires. Started about 18 months ago. And I agree looks cool. 1 Taxi guy next to my home did it. But now with the extra weight and mass he says it takes 3 times as far to stop and Top speed was reduced and his gas millage cut in half But he is OK with that becase it looks cool and he never go fast. Dome properly, you would need to regear it, Changing the front and rear sprokets to get things back where they should be. Add some power to compensate for the extra weight of hte wheels and tires, and up grade the brakes. Al done your now nearing hte price of that new 250 Ninja.

On my wave, with trial and error, and trying many tires combanations, I went with a 1.85 front rim and 2.15 rear rim with 80/80 front and 90/80 rear. I did have to chage my gearing. Bike handles wonderfully with my weight or 2 up with 200 kilos on it. And use good quality tires, Like Dunlop or some well known brand. Top speed is 130 kph Actual GPS checked.

I am all into fun and making changes to a bike, But working with Honda many years in America, with every change you make, other things need to be brought back in line. Nother ever is a true easy swap out deal

Thanks for the reply! Being in Pattaya I have been going to neary every Mityon dealer looking for this bike I finally located one today. I'm not going to tell where because I don't want anyone buying it in case I do decide to buy it. The Internet doesn't do this bike justice because when I saw it man its beautiful. The color was exactly what I was looking for white with black trimming and the guy told me I could have it for 52,000 baht. The wheels are the cheaper ones with the small spokes but as noted I plan to replace this rims with another alloy small pokes (4.25) and place a 120/70 or 130/70 on the back and 110/70 in the front. I have already price everything out it should be less than 10,000 and that include replacing the rear shock with gas one. Another 5,000 baht I could add a disc brake in the rear. Personally I have ridden a 125 Wave with exactly the items I just described and it stops much better that a wave without the disc in the rear. But of course I'm not 100 kg and just a slim 57kg. With my click I have the larger rims and 120/70 tires and yes heavier and no problem with stopping of course I don't drive like a Thai and don't expect to stop on a dime traveling like a crazy Thai. but the ride I wouldn't trade it for anything. I'm hoping for the same type of ride if I buy the 135 and do the same thing. The gas from what I'm reading will not give what my son 125 wave got 170KM for 2.52 litre which is 1 year old and fuel injected. As I also noted the clicks Mio are automatics and will use more gas due to the high revs whereas the wave and 135 are chain driver shifters.

I also read that there is no storage room first I thought it was going to be like my old click and small box which you can't even fit a mushroom helmet. But the 135 has NONE, just a small slot for your service book. The tank and battery box is right there but as for the looks it is really sporty? I told my son today when I pick him up from school and now he say buy it for me and I will give you my Wave! It is also rumor that there is a new 135 coming with duel disc brakes already on selling in Maylasia?

Clarification, the wave belongs to my son and I know I can add a rear disc and larger rim and tires on the Wave since I have seen many do so but overall I like the Yamaha better.

Gees not a lot of discussion recently about the Yamaha 135 Sparks? But I will give it a shot maybe I might get a answer?

First, I have a 2006 Honda Click that is Carb , not fuel injected and water cool. I love this bike and even now with over 50,000 KM, it runs like new and the kids that service it at my local shop constantly want to buy it. The only thing that I have done is replaced the one shock with a upgraded gas and replaced both rims with a larger set and place much larger size tires 120/70 (back) 110/70 (front) and the bike rides great. The biggest drawback even before the tires is the gas mileage. I fill up now each day100 baht put in around 90 KM before the tank is nearly empty.

A year ago I purchased a 125 Honda Wave.. Everyone tells me they get much more mileage than the click since the click is a automatic and naturally they rev constantly and will burn that is why so many motorbike taxis have manuals. To my surprise the same 100 baht on the wave gets me 180 KM, that is double. Although the bike handles differently and I have to shift I now am thinking about buying a new one and using the old one to rent out to my friends when they are in town.

I like the Wave, except I like a bike that is water cool which the Wave doesn so I recently have been thinking and researching the Yamaha Sparks 135 CC, which is not only water cooled also fuel injected along with another 10 cc and high compression ratio put a smile on my face since I'm too old to be riding a new 150 Honda CRB or CBR whatever? Based on that I assumed it got to do better in gas than my click but have no expectation that it will do better than the Wave? But the big problem being in Pattaya no one has a 135 Sparks in the showroom and I mean no one! They want me to order one first just to see it or buy before I see it up front. My main point is the fuel and no one seem to have a idea about what a recently purchased one uses. Maybe someone that has a 125/110 sparks can give me some gauge?The last thing I want is to get one and find out it drinks like my click?

I also plan to replace the original rims with wider ones to 4.25, tires 120/80 130/80 (back) and 110/80 in the front. I would also like to add a disc break for the back wheel and upgrade the shocks. Then I plan to fly up Sukhumvit in the middle of the night 100 plus KM, like I do now just to see if I will pee in my pants or find out if my number is up?

Anyone have any idea to anyof this stuff please add to it and thanks in advance!

Red Bull Executive equals Big Bull Sh-t! Hit and run and big shot cop rush to house and comes out later after one hour? We all know what is happening here! Major or whatever certainly not high enough that a deal couldn't be struck! I just glad that it was one of them and not someone else maybe they get a hint as to how it feels when one of their get it!

No time for this spoil rotten kid who ran away from the scene after killing someone. Money will be paid out undisclosed and after a week of ceremony and a apology to the family and some fake sorrow the whole thing will be swept under the rug. Just like the kid who drove the Posche 120 KM/H down a Soi and cut a 16 year old girl in half and took off too! Paid out 300,000 baht to the family and the cost of the car was near 10 million baht. Whatever happen to that case? How much time did he get?

Case can be solved, look no further than the women and the killer should be close by!

What is the problem? Regardless of him being Thai and although his own people are offended as to what he express it is just the plain truth!

Why? Here's why!

Women in Thailand for centuries are treated as second class citizenss. For those that are poor which are many in a country of haves or haves not have been treated as such to the point the women don't even know or understand that they are being stepped on by the men. Good or bad regardless of the politics I like the fact that Yickluck is PM, it should be a bright light to Thai women to set your goals higher.

We all know that in the lower specturn of income that Thai men are just plain useless in general. With their education system and their own discrimination of their own people it seems to be part of their culture to keep the women barefoot and stupid? As long as Thai women believe that if they don't have a man they are useless and worthless and there is something wrong with them? They have a enact feeling deep inside that every women is trying to steal their man, which is the case, even when they are useless. All it takes is a few seconds of sweet talk and Thai's will spread their legs and give up their cherry only to find out the hard way the next day from the guy that.. thanks but no thanks.. you can take care of the baby!

As long as Thai women continue to have the low esteem that they have about themselves and settle for some useless Thai guy and don't raise the bar of expectation and hold out for something better. This is what basically this Thai guy is saying he himself know the problem within his own people and many not just him know that! So he speaks the truth although his own people know it! He should be given a medal instead of being criticized!

We all know that majority of the time a Thai women is better off marrying a Farang. One would only hope she appreciate the opportunity that she is given that being with a Farang she gives up some of her culture each day and so does the Farang and there is a compromise in life so she can get herself out of the gutter of life with a Thai man. Until they start to raise their standard in men I too would say the same if I was in his position.

First the majority poor Thais can afford to go to KFC, Big Mac.. etc... their dying from their own cooking. Go to the Thai markets... That fly chicken is good because it is fried in that grease that they use over and over. Majority of items that are sold are fried, if it isn't fried to them it doesn't taste good. Check out those cheap drinks, like their ice coffee or ice tea loaded with sugar. Just recently a doctor completed his study and rated sugar should be a ban substance because of its affect it has on people. It can be addictive and cancer studies have proven that cancer cell loves sugar.

Lets not get into the pots and pans they sell and use at these market.. full of lead. Ever wash one you will know what I mean when you actually see the lead being wash off of them. As for the motorcycle death... I learn from the years living here that if they don't die today they will tomorrow! In the end, it is what it is Thailand is a good place to live but as for the government they are all talk and this study is just another one that the government has no intend in acting on it! so 3 years from now the same professor will have the same study and it goes on and on.

I could see the drinking and smoking and of course the motorbikes accidents, the low income seem to have money for the two but no money for eating. As I see it they eat what they can get their hands on? The kids feed on nothing but sugar and cholestrorals.

Now what surprises me is all that unprotected sex. I would think that male or female the % would be the same since doesn't it take two to tangle?

The professor of course said " They should " which means they aren't going to do anything!