likerdup1

If one is alcoholic by definition they lack self discipline to "resist alcohol's temptation" otherwise most all alcoholics would just stop drinking once things get bad. AA understands alcoholics are powerless to abstain on self will or "resist temptation" and recommends contact with a Power Greater to get the needed power. AA is a spiritual program of action.

So, you see you will have to do a transfer of some sort of monies to a cryptocurrency exchange. You might as well just transfer you money to your home country bank rather than the extra step of buying cryptocurrency. Unless you have a good way to transfer money from a Thai bank to a Cryptocurrency exchange it doesn't make sense to use cryptocurrency just to move money from one institution to another.

The REAL question is which exchange would you use to buy a stable coin (or other cryptocurrency) using Thai Baht? With any exchange you have to get your cash, in whatever form, to the exchange. How do you propose to get your cash to an exchange while in Thailand and then buy a stablecoin,. Bitcoin, Ethereum, dogecoin or whatever? The real question is how will you get your cash to an exchange to buy the crypto first? Thai exchange or other? Until you've got this question answered and a way to get your Thai Baht or other to an exchange the question is meaningless.

Of course. Let's Live and Let Live. Ultimately it's who we help along the way that really matters. I have no reason to not believe you. I do have to point out that I did not stoop to name calling in our discussion. Calling me "fundamentalist" is your opinion. Many people in AA who have been around awhile and managed to stay sober without doing all the steps, without really studying the literature or actually doing 12 step as it's intended like to label people like me. 1) Big Book Thumpers 2) Step Nazi's 3) Fundamentalists. I'm not a "fundamentalist". I'm simply a guy who has taken the time to really study AA literature, specifically the literature which contains the program - and follow the program within as designed. No alteration, embellishment needed. Simply got humble and followed the instructions. I have been open minded enough to admit that after 7 year of floundering in meetings, meetings attended my well meaning but uninformed AA's, I needed more help and finally found a sponsor who new what he was talking about. Instead of guys who just wanted to hand me Buddhism books or take me to coffee and talk. Or do the steps the way there sponsors sponsors sponsor did it. My Big Book sponsor took me through the Big Book line by line and I found out something very humbling and down right embarrassing. I had been going to meetings for 7 years and had little idea of the program. I didn't know what AA says alcoholism is. ( Physical Allergy coupled with a Mental Obsession) and how that manifests in an Alcoholic and I had very little idea of how to sponsor anyone. Once I got a qualified Big Book sponsor who new the text and took time to take me through it I finally was on my way to being a recovered alcoholic and really have a spiritual awakening which amounted to a God Consciousness. My current "experience" of God is it is a benevolent intelligent force in the Universe which when I try to parallel my will to it's gives me not only the miracle of recovery from alcoholism but a way to live sober. I try on a daily basis to parallel my will with it's. Fundamentally the AA way it's to be selfless. Frankly I have not been feeling good about making these posts. it's been a waste of time. Trying to make my point falls on def ears. Not many people are really willing to go all in and be open minded enough to "give themselves completely to the 12 step program". It's only in meetings where I find alcoholics desperate for recovery that I find the kind of open mindedness and willingness that the process requires. Studying the literature and following the instructions as originally designed is the best thing I never did for myself. I humbled myself to the 12 step program. Layed aside my God prejudice, layed aside my atheist and agnostic ideals and became open to experience the Power of a Higher Power. I'm done here.

How is it that you think I'm scaring away newcomers? Have you heard me share in a meeting? Have you witnessed me sponsoring newcomers? (which I do frequently with success). How many active sponsees do you have? I follow the Big Book instructions about how to help newcomers in the chapter "Working with Others". Do you know what it says? It expressly says to NOT talk of God or press spirituality at all in the first meetings with new people. It also says to talk primarily about drinking experience and experience with alcoholism first. Again with criticizing my "understanding" of the literature. My understanding of the literature lines up with the many literature enthusiasts I study it with. The Primary Purpose groups. The Connect the Dots group. The Reconciled Group. The list goes on. There are a growing number of people in AA latching onto the text book for our society called the Big Book. The first 164 pages of the Big Book (the program portion) has not been changed since it's first edition in 1939. Frankly I highly doubt you have studied the literature thoroughly. For instance this business about the "half measures" only applying to the first step. This is nowhere in the literature. All the literature enthusiasts I know have been humble enough to become teachable and have someone show them and help them understand the literature. I am a self taught computer programmer and even I needed to be shown. Come back and tell me when you've actually taken a day or two to go over the program with Big Book or 12 step program teachers such as Joe and Charlie or Bob D or Scott L. Then we can have an intelligent chat about the AA program of recovery. Let me point out. It appears you or a few other "Agnostic AA members" have invented new terminology. Specifically the terms you throw around like "Non God centered spiritual awakening" "God Awakening" This is one individual (or perhaps these so called AA secular groups) making up terms and twisting the English language to support their views. "God awakening" Where is that term ever seen in any of the AA literature? Where is the terminology "Non God-centered spiritual awakening" .. I'll bet this stuff was developed by these so called "secular AA" groups that come and go. Since we are using the English language lets just start off with the definition of the most important word in the AA program. SPRITUAL: Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not material; supernatural. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul. Not concerned with material or worldly things. So you see BY DEFINITION spirituality has to do with things that are not worldly. For instance Human beings are of this world. It's read at every meeting. B) The probably no HUMAN power could have relieved our alcoholism. By the way one pamphlet about the God word does not change the AA way of recovering from alcoholism. To change the AA way to recover they'd need to rewrite the first 164 pages of The Big Book and Twelve and Twelve.

This is not correct. Nowhere in the literature is the conclusion made that half measures in the How it Works chapter of the Big Book are referring only to doing the first step 100%. Also someone can be willing to grow along spiritual lines to make a beginning but if they haven't started or completed all the steps they will most likely not get recovery the AA way. To get recovery the AA way one must do all the steps as stated later on in the first part of Chapter Five. Someone can only be 100% on the program of recovery if they have done 100% of the 12 step program of recovery. The half measures sentence in the first part of the chapter "How it Works" refers to the ENTIRE 12 step program. Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked His protection and care with complete abandon. Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery: The steps are then listed. -- The 12 steps are the program. The start of Chapter 5 first paragraph reads: Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. ( Meaning simply that thoroughly doing ALL the steps will almost guarantee recovery from alcoholism.) Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program. ( This again is a reiteration of the fact that half measures or more plainly NOT WORKING ALL THE STEPS will not bring about recovery from alcoholism ) The steps are the program. The path they are referring is nothing more or less than the 12 step program of recovery. It is written in plain English.

Something I don't get and bothers me is that it seems to me that "agnostic sober AA members" seem to think the rest of us are delusional. That the experience of our AA founders and other sober AA members who have experienced the Power of a Higher Power are seeing things. That we are all hallucinating and our experience and connection with a Higher Power is not real. They "know better" about the universe and everything in it. To me there is too much misinformation floating around in the meetings and it's not allowing true, real alcoholics to get the critical opportunity of recovery the original and simple AA way. The tragedy is that these real alcoholics are the guys most people just write off as "not getting it". Gee, he didn't "get it" and drank again and died. Poor so and so. In reality.. nobody gave them information about the true program of AA in the first place. Because many AA members just rest on their laurels and think that what they do enough for them so it is enough for everybody else. This is the tragedy of the modern day AA fellowship and it's dismal recovery rate. If you are a sober member of AA and haven't studied even the first 164 pages of the AA Big Book and the short 12 step essays in the Twelve and Twelve then I implore you to do so and start talking about the real AA program in meetings instead of your hand me down inaccurate fellowship speak information, much of which is not the AA program. Go to youtube and search "Joe and Charlie" big book study. Or search for Bob D and Scott L big book study. These are my favorite big book and program teachers. They changed my life all for the good and more importantly made me effective at the single most important part of my spiritual life. Being knowledgeable and well equipped enough to help real alcoholics recover the AA way.

Glad you have your 38 years. I'll be 30 in a few days. What is it that you do to have not drank in a long time? For myself and guys I sponsor who are real alcoholics as described in the Big Book, it is imperative to work all 12 steps using the directions found in the literature. Specifically the Big Book and Twelve and Twelve. My home group, which is a dedicated literature study group, prides itself on our success rate with real alcoholics and has a number of qualified literature enthusiast sponsors who don't "just do what works for them" but actually practice and teach the AA 12 step program as designed and specifically laid out in the Big Book and Twelve and Twelve. I did that "works for me" program for about 2.5 years and I relapsed about 10 times during that time. I was doing my own program rather than THE 12 step program of AA. I'd stay sober for a couple months and think, "gee, this is working for me!" and then relapse. Half measures availed us nothing has been very true for me and other real alcoholics I know in AA.

AA doesn't push anything on anyone. But, if one wants to become recovered from alcoholism the AA way, according to the instructions both in the AA Big Book and the 12 and 12 one has to become open minded to experiencing a spiritual awakening which in AA's own words from Appendix II of the Big Book amounts to "God Consciousness". The word God is used as a convenience term throughout the AA texts and in no way suggests it has to be the deity of any organized religion or even a deity at all. The mistake of the OP I believe is he associates this term to much with conventional deities and believes he has a superior perspective of the Universe and everything in it. He likes to call himself and Agnostic AA member to set himself apart as superior and having a better way which needs to be explained in his book and blog. This is not humility. True humility which is required for REAL alcoholics to recover the AA way would amount to laying aside agnostic and atheistic prejudices and becoming even willing to experience the Power of a Higher Power as they WILL UNDERSTAND IT by completing all Twelve steps. So far I haven't seen anyone here quote any of the original AA text from the Big Book or Twelve and Twelve aside from the How it works stanza. I am quite confident the reason is nobody here has actually studied either the first 164 pages of the Big Book and studied all of the twelve step essays in the Twelve and Twelve. Most people who consider themselves members of the AA fellowship rarely become dedicated students of the AA texts. They simply go to meetings, read a few things and pickup information in a hand me down fashion and then believe their so called knowledge is accurate. That is why there is such a terrible recovery rate these days in AA. Very few people are actually doing the 12 steps as designed. Go to any meeting and take a survey of how many people have over 6 years sober. There are not many and it's because there is too much misinformation floating around in meetings of the fellowship by people who mean well but are simply uninformed and don't even know it. Here I will quote something which has been vitally important in my effort to remain recovered and my efforts to continue to sponsor the many men I have helped to recover. From the chapter "We Agnostics". Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God. The step 2 Twelve and Twelve essay says this about using the AA group as a higher power. But it states it is only a way begin on the path of connection with a Higher Power. Page 27 Twelve and Twelve. You can, if you wish, make A.A. itself your ‘higher power.’ Here’s a very large group of people who have solved their alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power greater than you, who have not even come close to a solution. Surely you can have faith in them. Even this mini-mum of faith will be enough. You will find many members who have crossed the threshold just this way. All of them will tell you that, once across, their faith broadened and deepened. Relieved of the alcohol obsession, their lives unaccountably transformed, they came to believe in a Higher Power, and most of them began to talk of God.

Excuse me but don't you think if it was just a matter of "stop doing it" that we would have tried that already? The reason I know I am alcoholic is that at some point (in my late 20's for me) I COULD NOT 1 ) Control the amount I would drink ONCE I started drinking 2) Stop permanently even though I honestly wanted to. Here is an excerpt from the AA Big Book. The entitled "Alcoholics Anonymous" that very succinctly explains in a couple sentences what they consider alcoholism to be. Page 45 Chapter 4 "We Agnostics" If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic. If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer. I tried to quit using your "just stop doing it" idea for 2 1/2 years. I could not stay sober for longer that about 2 months on my own. Will power did not work. Self discipline did not work. This is alcoholism. People who are not alcoholic have very little idea what it's like to honestly want to stop but not be able to no matter how great the wish or necessity.

Are you an alcoholic interested in recovery from alcoholism? If so I would urge you to attend some meetings of AA. Visit the AA website http://aa.org also. For online meetings visit https://aa-intergroup.org.

The mistake of many uninformed AA's is to think that the Big Book and Twelve and Twelve can be "interpreted". Why would Bill W. write a book with the goal of saving peoples lives from alcoholism that would need interpretation? It's not written in the Devinci code. It's written in English. There are many people in the fellowship of AA who never take time to actually study the book closely. I was one of those people at 7 years a dry drunk in AA. Once carefully studied one finds the literature is not meant to be interpreted. It's meant as a precise guide concerning how to apply the practical 12 step program of action in ones life to recover from alcoholism. Once someone really studies the AA book and Twelve and Twelve with a qualified and reputable sponsor (or some very famous Big Book teachers like Joe and Charlie or Bob D and Scott L) they find that in several parts of the first 164 that it states just how "precise" Bill and the first 100 alcoholics have attempted to make the text. Here are a couple of excerpts. Big Book Page 28/29: In the following chapter, there appears an explanation of alcoholism, as we understand it, then a chapter addressed to the agnostic. Many who once were in this class are now among our members. Surprisingly enough, we find such convictions no great obstacle to a spiritual experience. Further on, clear-cut directions are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-three personal experiences. Forward to the first edition: We of Alcoholics Anonymous, are more than one hundred men and women who have re- covered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. To show other alcoholics precisely how we have recovered is the main purpose of this book. So you see my friend. I don't have a personal interpretation. I have simply carefully studied it. In fact all my AA friends who are literature enthusiasts and who consider themselves students of the Big Book and Twelve all agree with what it says. I attend literature study groups and we all find together exactly what the literature states. There is very little room for interpretation. Interpretation to suit ones own personal agenda can actually kill real alcoholics. By the way. I am not saying agnostics or atheists should be excluded from meetings of the fellowship of AA. All are welcome. This has been a long time policy of AA as outlined in the traditions. I follow the traditions closely and never seek to exclude anyone from the fellowship. Entry into the fellowship is cheap. Only a desire to stop drinking. BUT entry into the Fellowship of the Spirit has a high price - taking ALL the Twelve Steps as designed and outlined in AA literature. The true test of ones ultimate effectiveness in AA is how many people that have actually helped to become recovered. To do that in AA one needs to sponsor by showing and guiding others through the entire 12 step program thus helping them recover from alcoholism. The twelfth step is the highest calling anyone can achieve doing the program of AA. I've been a sponsor for about 22 years of my 29 years sober. To recover the AA way one needs to help others one on one through the 12 step program outlined in the AA Big Book and Twelve and Twelve Book. I am currently helping a man who consided himself an atheist through the 12 steps. He is desperate and could not stop drinking for more than 3 days. He is sober 6 weeks now and I'm working with him on his 8th step list. He has been telling me he is feeling a new power flow in. A Power Greater than himself. He was even only willing to believe a Higher Power could help him to take step 2. Now he is experiencing this Power personal to him. It is a true joy to be a part of. It has been a great satisfaction of mine to help a wreck of a man back on his feet to recover and enjoy a happy and useful life through practice of the AA program. This I have experienced personally many times by being a sponsor.

This question doesn't make sense according to the AA text. One is not "IN" 12 step recovery unless they have DONE the steps. AA says one can be RECOVERED from alcoholism through doing the steps. According to the Big Book and 12 and 12 texts in order to do the second step a person would need to suspend their agnostic or atheist ideas and just become even willing to believe a Higher Power could help them. If one cannot even get past being even willing to believe, one cannot do the second step and thus NOT GET recovery that can be achieved through doing the steps. If an alcoholic is desperate enough to remain sober and open to suspend their old agnostic or atheist ideas and become even willing to believe a Higher Power could give them recovery they can then move on and do the remaining steps. I was atheist before i took the steps. I was desperate. I was even willing to believe a Higher Power could help me. I remained skeptical but did the 3rd step and to demonstrate I made the decision did the rest of the steps. Around step 7 I started having a spiritual experience. I started experiencing a Higher Power personal to me. I have been recovered ever since and practice steps 10, 11 and 12 regularly for the last 29 years. One can be "IN" the meetings of the fellowship. One cannot be "IN" the program. One either DOES or doesn't do the 12 step program.

AA is not a religion. They shun affiliation with religious groups. Let's make one thing clear. There is no being "IN" the program of AA. You are either doing it or you are not doing it. One can be "IN" meetings of the fellowship but one can only DO the program. Being "In" AA is not the same as actually doing the program of AA. There are plenty of atheists and agnostics visiting the meetings of AA everyday all over the world. BUT, if they want recovery the AA way they will have to do the program which demands they be open minded and get past their prejudices toward spiritual terms and be even willing to believe a Higher Power might exist. This is required TO DO THE SECOND STEP of the 12 step PROGRAM of recovery. The God Word pamphlet has to do with acceptance of people from all beliefs and walks of life IN THE MEETINGS OF THE FELLOWSHIP. It has always been the case that people of all beliefs and walks of life are accepted in the fellowship. But, if they want to do the 12 step PROGRAM of AA they will have to get past their prejudices toward spiritual terms and toward the possible existence of a Higher Power, Spirit of the Universe, Universal Mind, or God.. whatever you want to call God. They will need to drop their old atheist or agnostic ideas and become open minded to the possible existence of a God of some sort. From there they do the 3rd step and through demonstration of the 3rd step decision they do the rest of the steps which brings about a personal experience of a Higher Power.

Isn't this the "I drink too much forum". Perhaps there needs to be a sex problems forum? Anyways, sex addiction is real. The true test to determine if one is addicted is basically this. Any behavior which causes harm and detriment to ones life that cannot be controlled when there is a desire to stop or control that behavior. An inability to use self discipline to control a detrimental behavior. There are many 12 step programs which address most all of the common addictions. They are not religious however they are based on the premise that once one is addicted by virtue of being addicted they are powerless over the detrimental behavior. All 12 step programs provide the solution of accessing power of a Higher Power by practicing the 12 steps. By accessing that Power they can then control the behavior with help from this Higher Force/Power Spirit etc. The OP claims there are agnostic methods to practice the 12 steps but this is a falsehood and his opinion only.

Thank you Neeranam. I agree with you. Something that is truly progressive about the AA fellowship is it's strive toward tolerance and acceptance of anyone wanting recovery from alcoholism. Atheists, agnostics, any race, creed, color, sexual orientation etc. I agree whole hearteadedly that the program talked about in fellowship has gotten quite diluted with ideas from other 12 step fellowships, ideas from treatment centers and ideas of people who have a desire to stop drinking but are not real alcoholics. If somebody wants recovery from alcoholism the AA way they must do the 12 step program. The program is laid out in both the first 164 pages of the Big Book and the step essays in the 12 and 12. The whole program is suggested but if one wants to take the suggested program there are things that must be done. Part of the program is of course the 2nd step, To do the second step one would have to get past any prejudices they might have concerning spirituality, the existence of a Higher Force or God of some kind and become even willing to believe the possible existence of this Higher Force, Power, God etc.. Chapter 4 in the Big Book, "We Agnostics" is specifically designed to help agnostics or atheists get passed there prejudices or antipathy toward a Higher Power or God. The 3rd step is completed by saying a prayer! The 3rd step prayer is a prayer to a God of ones own understanding, Higher Power etc. There are very specific instructions in the Big Book that obviously can't be side stepped if one wants to do the 12 step program. I think one thing that comforts me at night is something we see in groups and meetings all the time. Groups that are successful at communicating the program and helping others survive and flourish. I am certain that these so called agnostic or atheist AA groups have very little if any success helping real alcoholics as described in the AA group. They may help hard drinking non-alcoholics but I am fairly certain most of these groups or meetings have very few attendees and do not grow. More than likely the fizzle out because nobody who is really alcoholic stays sober. Entrance into the AA fellowship costs nothing except a desire to stop drinking. ( I agree that the short version left things too wide open, but part of being spiritual is acceptance of others and tolerance.) Entrance into the Fellowship of the Spirit requires thoroughly following the path of AA which is the program. I think there are those who miss this statement which is read at the beginning of most every meeting. Here are the steps we took which are suggested as a program of recovery.

On reading my last post I see it wasn't very kind. Forgive me. No need for me to sling mud and call names. I'm very passionate about AA . The 12 step program and good sponsorship have given me a life I could not have ever imagined I would have. I consider myself a student and enthusiast of the AA basic text (The Big Book) and Twelve and Twelve book. I've helped many alcoholics recover from alcoholism by following the specific instructions in those two books. While the AA fellowship is open to all people whatever their beliefs, convictions, race, creed, color, sexual orientation etc. The program itself is laid out very specifically in the texts. The chapter "We Agnostics" is designed to help those who consider themselves agnostic or atheist at least be open minded to the existence of a God, Higher Power, Spirit of the Universe or what have you. In this way they can embark on the spiritual journey that is the 12 step spiritual program of AA. I apologize for my heavy language. My passion about the program sometimes gets the best of me and I do not behave the way a loving and kind Higher Power would have me behanve. Good luck with your book.

You can sight all the justifications you want to support your book. The basic text and the `12 and 12 are pretty clear. I don't have time to teach you the real AA program. I'm fairly certain you have never taken the effort to learn it or try it anyway, nor do you want to. I find your experience of claiming to be a hardcore alcoholic and staying abstinent by attending AA meetings for 25 years not too believable. If it's true you are a rare exception. I know quite a few hard drinkers that showed up to the AA fellowship, chose not to drink and then used the fellowship meetings as a social outlet. They are not alcoholics. Their experience does not help real alcoholics. I think many people don't understand that the AA fellowship is just the meetings. AA meetings do not bring about recovery from alcoholism. The program of AA is the 12 steps. I have been sober around 30 years. I do not know any real alcoholics as defined in the AA basic text who have been able to stay sober for 25 years just by going to meetings. Most real alcoholics who show up to AA as badly mangled as you say you were cannot get recovery unless they do the `12 steps as designed. Good luck in selling your book.

To much to say about his. I don't believe we need anymore clever books stating that the AA program can be adjusted or done by side stepping the most important part. A willingness to seek a higher power. There are too many alcoholics that cannot stay sober without spiritual help brought about by seeking the help of a Higher Power. That higher power cannot be human power according to the original AA text.

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I applaud you for not drinking for 25 years as it's obvious that's your wish. But I hate to break it to you. What you are saying is that you are relying on human beings. AA specifically says it's sole purpose is to seek a higher power or God (not necessary a God of religion either) to get recovery from alcoholism. Human beings are not Gods in AA. For those in early sobriety using the group as a higher power is good temporarily but will not suffice for complete recovery from alcoholism the AA way. Anyone who uses this idea and does all the steps experiences recovery through coming to know a God of their understanding. (see the last paragraph on page 27 of the 12 and 12 AA book) All my sponsors and people I know who are AA literature enthusiast will simply conclude you are relying on people. Not a higher power. All real alcoholics I know cannot stay sober on human power. There is something that is read at every meeting that is important to know about the program of AA. (and anyone reading please understand that the fellowship and its meetings are not the 12 step program) (a ) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives. (b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism. (c ) That God could and would if He were sought. Any readers please understand that most all real alcoholics cannot get relief from this serious disease of alcoholism on their own self will, self discipline or other human beings. If that were true AA wouldn't be needed. The 12 step program is nothing but a set of directions for an alcoholic to access a Power Greater than themselves to achieve recovery from alcoholism. If you've been able to stay sober and have not even gotten past the 2nd step you may not be the kind of drinker that is described in AA literature as a real alcoholic. I am writing this because I wish anyone who may be looking for recovery from alcoholism to not be mislead that what is being said here is a way to do the 12 step program of AA. It is not. There is no "agnostic" or atheists method to recover from alcoholism the AA way. Further more, strictly speaking, anyone who says they are alcoholic and is able to stay abstinent for 25 years without doing the 12 step program is probably not a real alcoholic. More likely just a hard drinker who gave it up on thier own and found the AA fellowship to be a great forum to socialize and make friends. There is an entire chapter in AA's basic text (Alcoholics Anonymous) titled "We Agnostics" It's sole purpose is to help people who consider themselves aesthetes or agnostics to become open minded to spiritual principles and the possible existence of a Higher Power, God, Spirit of the Universe etc. Unfortunately it appears the OP has not read the book or this chapter.

Personally I would not take the risk of making all the arrangements for a trip and then being denied flight or entry into the Kingdom for not following the posted rules. Namely not having a return ticket. I like the comfort of having the proper and required documentation. Having a 60 day visa is great. I'll also be applying for a Non O but will have a nice cusion of time to do it in case there are any unforseen issues (which are common at Jomtien desk 7) Thailand can be unpredictable in that regard. One person enters without any trouble with out a return ticket. Others need all the documentation and one piece nobodies ever heard about. For instance, ,even though now a vaccination document is not required, I'll bring one with me anyway. Interesting, where did you get your Non O? I've never heard of an IO assisting with an application for a fee. There are of course the services outside of most Immigration offices that assist in putting together the documents but this is a new twist. Where was it?

Many ignore the red flags or think the are exceptions to the rule. Blinded by what they think is love. They hear the sob stories of other farangs bamboozled and fleeced by bar girls but think they are smarter and won't get taken. Don't let the beauty full ya lads.. Some are wolves in sheep's clothing. Famous last words: She isn't like all the other bar girls! She's different!

Thanks again for your suggestions and experience. I just got my eVisa in One day! Your idea of concatenating the two one way confirmations worked well. I used Linux and I used a command line tool I didn't even know existed until you had mentioned your idea of making one doc with both tickets. Regarding the forms being different depending on nations.. I think there may be some differences. You mentioned something I didn't see on my form.. I think it's because each individual consulate is responsible for evaluating the applications. In the USA I believe there are 5 major regional Thai consulates. Since I'm on the west coast I chose Los Angeles. And the letter head of the visa shows it's origin is Los Angeles Consulate. I'm very pleased at how smoothly it all went. I just supplied them with everything they asked, save one word doc I submitted with big font "NOT APPLICABLE" and all went well. Now no fussing about at Immigration to extend a visa on arrival! cheers VBF. Safe travels -- likerdup1

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