OlRedEyes

With all the threads on TV re all the PAD's shenanigans the past few months it's become quite clear that the vast majority of posters here, despite priding themselves on their percieved in depth knowledge of Thailand, have seemingly no clue of what is playing out here, and why. I for one am very surprised, I would've expected that many would have learned to adjust the angle of view when looking at events here. The western angle simply produces reflections from the surface.

Care to enlighten us with your version of the events as they've played out?

No. Some things are best left unsaid.

I drop into these threads to check on news. Mostly I keep quiet, but sometimes the itch to say something gets too much Must be my old age or something.

With all the threads on TV re all the PAD's shenanigans the past few months it's become quite clear that the vast majority of posters here, despite priding themselves on their percieved in depth knowledge of Thailand, have seemingly no clue of what is playing out here, and why. I for one am very surprised, I would've expected that many would have learned to adjust the angle of view when looking at events here. The western angle simply produces reflections from the surface.

Maybe the Thai are right, farang don't understand Thai politics or culture at all, even after they've spent decades here.

I've noticed a precious few posters who seem to have a grasp on the underlying issues, most are scratching around on the surface, fooled and confused by the smoke and mirrors.

The threads remind me of people running around in a maze, babbling incoherently.

How to win friends and influence people

Is the circus still in town?

I think the question is 'why wasn't it nipped in the bud.' Just like children, unless you stop them from misbehaving early on, their behavior will only get worse.

By misbehaving, i take it you mean protesting against a corrupt government? Nothing childish about that, that i can see. I guess though if you're a supporter of said corrupt government, i can understand you thinking that way.

Has there ever been a Thai government that wasn't corrupt?

I don't remember the PAD protesting against the corrupt governments that were run by their sponsors.

Exactly. This is not about corruption at all. Never was. Corruption here is part of the national makeup. It's natural and accepted.

Thaksin, as bad as he is, tried to move Thailand in a direction that the elite don't want at all. Giving the people a plastic democracy, the face of democracy, is fine. The real thing will not be tolerated. This is a fight about who this country belongs to, who owns it. His corruption could be accepted, his power play not.

ThaiBev is rumoured to financially support PAD, too - that's why Chamlong didn't say a word when they were readying for the latest SET listing.

Can reds boycott Beer Chang?

That looks like Bangkok Bank, DTAC and ThaiBev. Lets wait for the denial!

Just seen the most scathing report on the PAD to date and it was on Al Jazeera. Scathing of the PAD and their elitist aims it set out their policies as dictated to their Journalist.

They are threatening to use human shields.

Human shields = Hostages

Hostages = Terrorist

Terrorist = imprisonment, long time

In thailand = not.

Those of us who have weathered umpteen coups and coup attempts and have seen life here go on as usual know that it's still a great place. The country's struggle to build towards a working democracy has been underway for less than 80 years, pinned by historical roots that run very deep. Don't forget that Thailand didn't have a Western political infrastructure to build upon like other countries in the region, most of which nonetheless boast one-party rule.

It would, sadly, appear though that in those 'less than 80 years' (is this a short period?) very little or no progress has been made.

A coup is a Banana Republic solution.

Which other solution do you suggest for a Monkey Government?

One coup, everybody will step back and then there is time to think about how to continue? Or do you still believe that PAD and PPP will find an acceptable solution in an acceptable time frame?

The United States of America had a Monkey Government from 2000 - 2004. They stupidly re-elected the Monkey Government again in 2004-2008. Like mature people, the rest of us waited it out until finally we could democratically "overthrow" the Monkey Government in 2008 after a well-run extended campaign in which everyone's views had free expression and the transition of power is orderly. Is that too much to ask?

Again, a coup is an immature short term fix that never really "fixes" it. If a coup really "fixed" the problem, you wouldn't need 17 coups in a row.

A coup teaches the people that...

...the gun is more important than the vote.

...expediency always trumps principle.

...for the Army to own and control most of the important electronic media (4 TV stations, radio, etc.) is an "OK" thing.

...the Army is REALLY the ultimate power that wags the tail of government.

Are you happier with THAT? If you are, you would probably enjoy life much more in Burma where the army finally and permanently "fixed" the problem of political diversity. With every coup, Thailand precariously teeters on the brink of permanently "fixing" things as our SE Asian neighbor has done. Don't forget that Thailand's military brass and Burma's murderous junta have been on "best buddy" terms since just before the 2006 coup. It's just too great a risk, in my opinion.

Yes, democracy is messy, but a coup is a rape of a nation's soul--it flies in the face of 20 centuries of political evolution in which democracy has helped restore value to the voice of the individual, bows to majority rule, and respects the rights of the minority. It doesn't work perfectly, but it's a heck of a lot better than monks and journalists being gunned down in the streets of Rangoon while trying to have the voice of the people heard.

Excellent summation.

He said Phatra projected the country's economy would grow 3.3 per cent next year should the political disorder continue unabated.

-- TNA 2008-11-25

Methinks he's a rather optimistic soul....

"Thaksin is a man of action. He can't sit still and do nothing. He would like to contribute to the global society," he said.

May the gods help us all.

Maybe he means he wants to feed at the global trough.

Anyone know if and where my wife can obtain an international driving permit, preferably on Samui?

Sometimes in the middle of a day I get a spam text messages. Some are from AIS and some are from weird sources like 108live or InfoLove. All of them are Thai script. Is there a way to block senders or otherwise get rid of spam? Did I do something that triggers spam or is it just part of AIS's policy to spam customers?

Not only during the day either. Two nights ago, just after midnight, I got one again. Not.

On the automakers' move to lower their production output and slash more jobs, the minister said the government will try to lessen the impact of the global financial crisis on the country's economic growth.

The penny hasn't dropped yet. The 'global financial crisis' is yesterday's news. Worldwide, real, economic recession (at best) is now the game.

This is the land of denial. To live here, one has to do as the Thai do, go into denial.

I, like (I'd imagine) most foreigners, came here willing to learn, adapt and respect.

Through time, it's become apparent that there really is very little here to respect, and that to be able to survive here without constant anger and disgust I'd have to go into denial, or at least ignore all the crap around me. I certainly cannot, even if I were willing to, live in denial. Ignoring, I am only partly successful in. Therefore I will leave soon with my wife, who herself, after living with me for awhile abroad, described Thailand as a 'jail'.

My wife and her family are very moral people, and I respect them greatly. By extension I am sure there are similarly many Thais like them. They however, do not seem to come even close to anything like the majority, which makes this country a rather unsavoury place to live in.

I will always have a connection with this country, and will certainly spend time here from time to time.

I suspect that many who so vehemently defend Thailand at all costs are in denial. The good which they so boldly tout, is mostly plastic. Scratch the surface and very little real good is found here.

Which makes me terribly sad. I'd love to love Thailand.

This world has become, and is becoming an even more, crappy place for us and our children because of the 'I'm OK Jack, so I'll do nothing for the society around me' attitude that prevails.

Whether doing anything to 'expose' her, if there is much you can do, will make much difference is unlikely. Question is, do you care what happens to others? Most don't. You won't make a big dent in the selfishness of this world, but if everyone gives up totally and just takes care of their own butts, we and our children will live in hel_l.

It certainly looks like both sides have backed themselves into a corner, and there is no way out.

Doesn't look good.

If you don't like it, why don't you pack your bags and go home!

I knew it wouldn't be long before the card carrying, color coordinated shirt/bracelet wearing "we-b-thai" contingent crept out from under their rock to start with their "luv it or leave it" rhetoric.

I've got news for you, most times I can just barely tolerate this country and its diminutive, ever smiling, inhabitants. The only reason I cut them slack is because it is their country, . Still I have abso-tively posi-lutely NO intention of leaving.

Back on topic:

As far as the ex-pat community; you would be hard pressed to find a more dysfunctional group of people. It is probably one of the worst ex-pat communities I have ever seen as far as infrastructure, support, etc. If you are not a foreign "we-b-thai" embracing your 'thainess', touting the virtues of this country, you are ostracized by them as 'not understanding thai culture' (an oxymoronic statement if there ever was one).

Then again the prevalence of cheap alcohol, even cheaper women and accommodations make thailand a magnet for people who couldn't have this quality of life in their home country. They come here to "live the dream" in Nakhon Nowhere supporting their tattooed, gold encrusted, "thai-in-tow" and her extended family.

I will admit to having met very interesting people here. However there are very few that I would ever socalize with on a personal level.

It had to be said.

cclub75 I see what you are getting at, you think because we could be threatened with violence it is in fact our business to know and be involved with what is going on right ?

A: If so I just cannot imagine any violence being directed at farang if anything does go down so no need to be involved in something that ultimately will bring no threat to you.

I did say before I had my ticket booked but I can assure you I do not and nor will I be leaving, B: this like many others is now my home and it is my wife and daughters home so I do get where you are coming from. However I would advice you, myself and anyone else to keep opinions to this forum and farang circles only but I am sure I do not have to tell you or anyone else this

I never thought so before but Mr Head certainly knows what he is talking about all be it C: he is sometimes a little anxious to make a mountain out of a molehill !

A: When things go, shall we say, pear shaped in a country, history shows us that far worse things can happen than we would ever have imagined.

B: I wonder how many of you that insist on calling Thailand your 'home' have Thai citizenship or even permanent residence? I'd wager a minuscule %.

C: Making mountains out of molehills.... If you do not look forward, extrapolating the trend, but only looking at the present, maybe. Problem with that is events tend to knock you on the head, hard, as you are not aware of potential developments before the axe falls.

Ask many TV members who were saying the same thing when the markets 'lurched' , that first week, then were shouting buy! buy! the second week.

I've noticed a few posts lamenting substantial losses.

Seeing that you have a wife and daughter here, I'd say it is imperative that you keep on top of not only what is happening today, but where the trend may take us. Anything less is totally irresponsible for a family man.

Though it may be true that Thailand, due to it's cheap 'n easy nightlife and lack of law 'n order, attracts a large amount of the much celebrated misfits, criminals et al, it is also true that expats in less-developed countries tend to be independent adventurous types. Not exactly the type of person that wants to spend many blissful hours in a group of people who try to drag him back to the good old home atmosphere and general stimulating chit-chat about how crap the pound, dollar or euro is, or how Blair 'n Bush make such a lovely couple....

For the same reason he prolly doesn't see why he should smile/wink at a passing long-nose to show their beautiful, close kinship in a land of us-against-them....

I enjoy stimulating conversation wih expats, but it is hard to find. Expats with stimulating minds tend to shy away from general contact, as it tends to be boooooooooring!!

Went to a bar the other night for the first time in a looooooong time with me lovely wife. Expat starts talking to me, I think great, some light relief. No go, Jose. Within minutes I had to get outta there or commit suicide.

This is a problem.

Such a disproportionate level of development and disparity of income was always going to be a massive social problem here, and it is finally happening. The accelerated speed of this development, within 1-2 generations (as toptuan states above^^) has arrived without the checks and balances / regulations, legal, democratic, and governmental institutions in place to cope. They are 30 years behind modern industry, as it is...

Its not exactly the Khmer Rouge coming out of the jungle to sack the capital, yet; but beware the wrath of a patient people.

Which makes me wonder what is China's future..... Slightly off-topic I know, but not in the bigger regional picture.

One thing I am not sure of now is whether Thaksin is leading his supporters where he wants to go or whether the shall we say more democracy minded supporters are using Thaksin to get where they want to go. I am fairly sure that though they are fellow travellors that they do have different ideas on the destination.

I agree.

You are right that you cant put a genie back in a bottle.

Great way of putting it. The genie is truly out of the bottle. But IMHO all hel_l will probably break loose as the establishment insists on trying to put it back.

I still don't understand what farangs have to do in this Thai struggle.

Can't do anything. Try not to exacerbate it, and keep track of what's happening. It could get very ugly.

Everybody seems to think that this is still only a power struggle between the elites - new money and old money. That's what it started out as, but it has evolved into something a lot more grassroots. As I said in my previous post, the poor population have tasted a little attention from Thaksin - as corrupt as his administration was - and they are not going to sink back into political oblivion quietly again, coup or no coup.

The situation is moving on, albeit slowly. But most posters here don't seem to be aware of that, still arguing about vote buying, paid protests and elites struggling.

Just saw this thread - a BBC report which confirms what I said previously. Interesting reading.

"If the PAD cannot convince me their version of democracy will help grass-roots people like me, then I will fight them to my last breath"

Farmer Ankham Ratanasingha

To think that this dispute is going to be settled only between elites is folly. Methinks them days are over.

"Economies of the world's developed countries will all be sluggish with the US economy projected to experience 'negative growth' of 0.3 per cent and the Chinese economy to grow 8.5 per cent."

Yes. The 'West' has had the leadership for about 200 years (after the UK had its Agricultural Revolution, and found easily-worked deposits of coal and ores which enabled it to put to manufacturing, and colonizing, those 78% of its population that weren't needed to grow food).

But now, depletion of energy is starting the East back into its former ascendancy.

On fertile land in the sub-tropics, with no need for winter heating or summer cooling, is the place to be, chaps. Lucky, aren't we!

Now all we need is more tinfoil hats.....

I fail to see exactly why the gov't would issue a bomb warning if they didn't think it was credible.

There could be a legion of reasons in a land where nothing is as it seems on the surface. Thailand is a conspiracy theorist's dream.

PAD and Sondhi, Thaksin and his PPP puppets all two sides of a coin. The Thai elite in a vicous power struggle. The PAD want limited elections and super powerful checks and balances. The PPP want elections and no check or balance on anything they do. Neither is right. Guess we shouldnt forget the 2500 innocents slaugtered under a Thaksin policy either.

It actually seems nobody really cares about democracy or put another way both sides want to cherry pick the bits that suit them. Then again power struggles may get dressed up as all kinds of things and both sides are doing this. However, it will probably all end up in a very nasty way. The hatred works both ways. Take a look at the acts and speeches of Sondhi and Thaksin recently. They both sound insane.

Exactly. Things move slowly here in Thailand. Someone remarked on the size of the 'bombs' here. There is a slow but seemingly unstoppable escalation in the depth of the divide, and the level of hatred and violence. If this continues, the level of violence, and the size of the bombs, will surely grow.

Because of the slow and steady escalation, people forget where it all started. Reality gets lost in a haze of growing hatred and propaganda. We are passing a point of no return, until somewhere down the line where the population gets tired of bloodshed and decide to talk. History shows that point is not easily reached.

Thailand already seems to be at a point where there is no way out anymore, except maybe another coup. Will that stop the trend? I doubt it. I think the die is cast, sadly. Once the population reaches the divide that it has, violence seems the only road. Nobody wants to talk. I doubt that the poor part of the populace that have tasted some consideration, irrespective of Thaksin's motives, for the first time in history, will ever quietly sink back into political oblivion again, coup or no coup. And the elite are absolutely not willing to part with their status, power and money either.

Dark days ahead.