CMHomeboy78

I've never been to Long Tieng, but I'd like to go and see what remains of it.

During the war it had a population of almost 50,000 making it the second largest city in Laos, but it was never marked on any map.

Its mile-long asphalt all-weather airstrip had more traffic than Chicago's O'Hare... That's what I heard from ex-USAF guys that I knew when I first came here.

Did you know Bill Young?  He picked the location and developed it, didn't he?

Wasn't Bill Young  aka  "Hitman" Bill Young... "AirAmerica Bill" Young a son of Harold Young, the founder of the zoo?

If so, did he have any connection with it, or play a part in its development?

Yes, that's right.

Bill Young was the son of Harold Mason Young and the grandson [and namesake] of William Marcus Young, the Jawaw of the Lahu tribe.

I don't know the extent of his involvement with the Chiang Mai Zoo.  I haven't been able to find much information, other than that he was once a "curator"... whatever that means.

I would guess that his other activities didn't leave him much time for the zoo.

Shame the place has been run down so badly.

 

 

There have been changes, that's for sure.

In the late 70s I remember it as being rather basic as zoos go, but a beautiful location and fun to visit.  If you went on a weekday you almost had the place to yourself. You just had to dodge the occasional school group, that's all.

In the 80s and 90s when my daughters were growing up we would go often, but as the variety of animals increased over the years, so did the number of visitors, and the level of commercialism became annoying.  It wasn't so much fun anymore.

A zoo that I really like is the one outside Jakarta, located in a lush and hilly area that the Dutch had developed as a botanical garden.  Also, it has big habitats for Komodo Dragons and Sumatran Tigers.

Great place.  Go for a visit if you're ever in Jakarta.

 

 

Did they ask for a passport?

That's a good question.

An even better question is whether or not foreigners are required by law to carry their passports.

I've posted this before but it bears repeating...  I started a topic on this subject a while ago, but nobody could cite a specific law.  I don't think one exists.

I do know that in the mid-90s a crusading zealot named Purachai, who had recently been appointed to a high position in the national police stated unequivocally in a long interview in the #1 English language newspaper that all foreigners must carry their passports at all times - photocopies were unacceptable because they could be too easily altered.

Many posters have gotten away with showing photocopies and, or, alternative ID... but how long will it be until this too becomes an issue, and another opportunity for extortion masquerading as law enforcement? 

 

 

From the news...

 

'Expats and tourists will not have to carry their passports on them at all times, it was reported today following earlier reports that laws requiring foreigners to do so will soon be strictly enforced.

Police Colonel Voravat Amornvivat, a senior official at the Immigration Bureau’s headquarters in Bangkok, told Thaivisa.com that he wanted to reassure the expat community.

Tourists will not have to carry their original passports and expats can use a Thai driving licence or photocopy of their passport as a form of identification, he was quoted as saying.

“Making all foreigners in Thailand carry their original passports with them would be very difficult,” he said. “It’s about being reasonable and using common sense.”  '

 

Note the line that says 'that laws requiring foreigners to do so ...'  From this, it appears that there are laws requiring foreigners to do so, but that they will not be strictly enforced.  I hope this clears up the issue for you.

 

No, it doesn't clear up the issue.  It's just another high-ranking cop making a pronouncement.

If a law does exist, let us see it.

Did they ask for a passport?

That's a good question.

An even better question is whether or not foreigners are required by law to carry their passports.

I've posted this before but it bears repeating...  I started a topic on this subject a while ago, but nobody could cite a specific law.  I don't think one exists.

I do know that in the mid-90s a crusading zealot named Purachai, who had recently been appointed to a high position in the national police stated unequivocally in a long interview in the #1 English language newspaper that all foreigners must carry their passports at all times - photocopies were unacceptable because they could be too easily altered.

Many posters have gotten away with showing photocopies and, or, alternative ID... but how long will it be until this too becomes an issue, and another opportunity for extortion masquerading as law enforcement? 

Did you hear of the legendary Suthep?
Who apparently founded Lamphun around the year 750; and had his domicile on Doi Suthep- the doi suthep we all see everyday - this is where it got it's name apparently.

You might be interested in this account of how Doi Suthep got its name:

Lawa Guardian Spirits of Chiang Mai. By Krisri Nimmanhaeminda.

Journal of the Siam Society. Vol. 55. 1967. PDF file.

This legend was vaguely familiar to me, but the JSS article provides a wealth of information and details that include traditional stories about Queen Chamadevi of Haripunchai [Lamphun], and King Mengrai of Chiang Mai, and their relations with the Lawa who pre-dated the T'ai in this area.

According to folklore, Pu Sae, Ya Sae, and their son Sudeva Rikshi were Lawas with a propensity for cannibalism until they met the Buddha near what is now Mae Rim.  After trying to make a meal of him, they were converted to Buddhism, and their son Sudeva became a monk living on the mountain that now bears his name, Doi Suthep.

The legend has it that from that time onward the Lawa people gave up cannibalism and began to be assimilated ; first with the Mons to the south - with whom they are distantly related - then with the T'ai, who later started coming down from the north.

The father, the mother, and the son, as a trinity of spirits have been venerated by both T'ais and Lawas ever since.  There is an annual festival at Wat Doi Kham that includes the sacrifice of a Kwai. People with a bias against animism often point out that they are given propitiatory offerings out of fear that they might revert to cannibalism. No doubt there is some truth in that; done on the principal that it's a good idea to cover all the bases.

It's all part of what Chiang Mai and Lanna T'ai have been, and still are.

 

Really good book this.
From prehistory ; home erectus population up to a million years ago through to moving to agriculture rather than hunting and gathering (12-6000 bc) to the start of metal age 600bc. Good read. Only just at the beginning.
Recommend you go and pick up a copy.
ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1406824733.387600.jpg

Will you please tell me where in Chiang Mai you bought this book.

 

Suriwongs might have it, they often do.

Otherwise, go direct to the publisher:  Silkworm Books.  6 Sukkasem,  T. Suthep.  It's on a soi off Nimblehymen...easy to find, courteous and efficient people to deal with, and everything seems to be in stock.

Not sure if you guys can zoom in to see the back chat. Just about to read this. Personally I am interested in the minds of the people / us humans as well as the battles, migrations and states they/ we have built. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1406789796.167585.jpgImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1406789830.951817.jpg

I share your interest... regardless of the fact that most of what is written about it sounds like the work of unbalanced people.  There are exceptions however, notably Carl Jung and Mircea Eliade.

Clearly defined origin and migration myths would be a great help in determining where the T'ai race came from. If they ever existed as oral transmission or in written form they haven't been preserved.

The Chinese chronicles referred to the Nanchao T'ai as barbarians, but little meaning should be attached to this expression. They called all foreigners barbarians down to a very recent date, and doubtless the term is not even yet obsolete.

The Chinese themselves don't have migration myths, and perhaps for similar reasons - a preoccupation with who they are and where they are.

According to Eliade many traditional societies share common outlines in their mythical geographies. In the middle of the known world is the sacred Center, the Omphalos/Axis Mundi/Sadu-Muang.  This Center anchors the established order; around the sacred Center lies the known world, the realm of order; and beyond the known world is a chaotic and dangerous realm peopled by ghosts, demons, and foreigners.

For whatever reasons, the T'ai people have no myths or legends of a homeland that they left in the distant past.

 

 

The original homeland of Daic people or Tai-Kadai speakers is in Guangxi and Guangdong in south eastern China. Note that not all Tai-Kadai speakers are of Tai-Kadai ethnic since some ethnic do live among the Tai-Kadai speakers there for the infuences is high. To anyone who is interested on this might want to search up on the internet for more informations, please look up at Daic/Tai-Kadai/Zhuang/BaiYue or hundred Yue. You should make connections with these. And if you want to look up further you will come across with Liangzhu culture.
Hope this help.

Linguistic studies would suggest China as the original homeland of the T'ai people, and there is no hard evidence to prove otherwise.

Before the 6th century BC when the Chinese first recorded their existence, all is conjecture.  Nobody knows.

The proto-history of Southeast Asian races is very well summed-up in D.G.E.Hall's  A History of South-East Asia [St. Martin's Press].

According to Hall, the theory that the T'ai originally came from Central Asia was put forward by westerners in the 19th century, based on racial similarities with other Central Asian peoples and native Americans, who are believed to have originated there as well.

That seems to be the most plausible explanation; at least until compelling evidence turns up to contradict it.

Thanks for your reply.

 

 

 

 

Dr James Chamberlain (Tai Linguistics) cites linguistic evidence that the T'ai originated in Northern Vietnam.

 

Do Thai schools still teach that the Thai originated in the Nan Chao Kingdom of Yunnan Province?

 

 

 

The place of origin of the T'ai race is a vexed question.

The accuracy of linguistic and even genetic studies of people in the very remote past can be legitimately doubted.

Closer to our own time and more amenable to study is the Nanchao kingdom in what is now Yunnan.

That it had a majority T'ai population is, I believe, generally accepted by most historians based on the plausible evidence of the Chinese chronicles that first mention them as early as the 6th century BC, and frequently thereafter.  Also there is a large number of T'ai speakers in Yunnan to this day.

I don't really know what the Thai schools teach.  But it would be hard to imagine that their history lessons are much worse or less inspiring than the ones in the US.

As usual, almost everything I've read in this and similar threads is fascinating. 

It's always good to hear from others with similar interests.

I grew up north of New York City near the Hudson Highlands, an area that played a key role during the Revolution.  History and the remains of it were a living presence, and I took a great interest in it, even as a child.

I feel the same way about Chiang Mai and Lanna T'ai. History is a living presence here also... as Faulkner said  "The past is never dead, it's not even past."

All the best.

 

 

 

What about native Americans?  Is it still believed that they originated in Central Asia, or has there been some doubt cast upon that as well?

 

On the contrary, there is some newer tantalizing linguistic evidence in the proposed Dene-Yeniseian language group.

 

 

What is the consensus of informed opinion now? ...that native Americans originated in Central Asia and that the T'ai race originated somewhere in South China?

 

 

 

I believe that would be the consensus opinion but not a unanimous opinion.

 

The reason I ask is because I'm putting together a series of short articles on Chiang Mai and Lanna T'ai history and I don't want to quote out-of-date theories.

Maybe the most accurate thing to say would be that the classification of the T'ai race as Altaic has been challenged by recent linguistic and genetic studies.

Thanks for sharing what you know about this.

 

What about native Americans?  Is it still believed that they originated in Central Asia, or has there been some doubt cast upon that as well?

 

On the contrary, there is some newer tantalizing linguistic evidence in the proposed Dene-Yeniseian language group.

 

 

What is the consensus of informed opinion now? ...that native Americans originated in Central Asia and that the T'ai race originated somewhere in South China?

Why did she marry into a family like that in the first place?

Beautiful girl, and she looks intelligent too...

Some good blades are available here, some aren't.

Sometimes you can get what you want, and then they will disappear from the stores for months or years at a time. Don't take anything for granted, if in doubt, bring your own.

I use Gilette Trac II blades myself, and I have occasionally seen them on sale here, but I always bring them with me when I return from Farangland.

You didn't ask about shaving cream, but I'll volunteer a little information in case you don't know already: The Big C house brand is both good and inexpensive at 69 baht for a small can that lasts me almost two months.

Happy shaving!

The military let her go for a reason... but what that reason is, is hard to guess.

The reason is she is still extremely popular. Not only with fellow citizens but internationally too.

Yes, she is "La fille du regiment" among the officer corps in Bangkok.

I agree , it's all very interesting.

But as has been said the early stuff is mostly guess work.
Even the genetic studies can be influenced by migrations of people in to pre existing communities rather than those later communities coming from x location.

Take the recent work on the current Jewish population of Isreal. Apparently they are genetically closer to European and Middle Eastern; and the Palestinians are closer genetically to what were the original Jewish people of that areas.
This is work carried out by an Israeli Jew in a association with Stanford University in the US I think it was; saw it in the press recently.
So they are concluding that these Jews are in fact European converts from over the past thousand years or whatever. They are Jewish however so their jeans say they are largely European but they still obviously originated from the original home land of the Jews- their jeans just got blended with Europeans through hundreds of years of inter marriage.

So when studies say because of these linguistic or that genetic trait means these people "came from" x location- it really does not mean that at all; all it means is "x" population has been influenced by "y" population and any thing beyond that with out historical writings as evidence is just plucking ideas out of the air.
Even with historical evidence such as writings - the writings are of course just snippets from one biased / subjective angle.

So all very interesting and I do enjoy hearing these things;
but I don't take it all too literally or as fact.
Just interesting thoughts like the nature of dark matter or what goes on inside black holes. (I recently read that a new theory is that black holes switch to eject matter shortly after they form but we didn't observe this because of the effects of the holes gravity on time. )

What about native Americans?  Is it still believed that they originated in Central Asia, or has there been some doubt cast upon that as well?

Have you tried Baan Twaey? Not sure of the spelling, but it's not really a tourist place. Buyers from around the world buy from there for their stores. All kinds of wood items from furniture to statues. Furniture manufacturer s are there also.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Ban Tawai... that's the best advice anybody could give you, Choonpon. Go for it!

 

Yes, but that's 19th century, not now we live in 21th century. We have DNA test to emphasize new theories. Languages or physical changes over time but DNA tell more deeper of the origins, not that languages are less important.

To always compare appearances to look for similarities is for me sketchy. Since people who look totally different can still have more close DNA connection then their supposed kinship.

Works of Hui Li is a great evidence on Daic populations and on their immigration routes. In his research he took many blood samples from different ethnic groups and compared relations among them.
Tai people in northern Thailand (Khon Muang) today are of West group. Immigration into south east asia was just some 2000 years ago, quite recent.

http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/A08.pdf

Please read more info in the link below.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0060822

194 samples from four additional populations were genotyped in this study: Han (Yunnan), Dai (Dehong), Dai (Yuxi) and Mongolian. The results of genetic distance comparisons, genetic structure analyses and admixture analyses all indicate that populations from northern origin hypothesis have large genetic distances and are clearly differentiated from the Tai. The simulation-based ABC analysis also indicates this. The posterior probability of the northern origin hypothesis is just 0.04 [95%CI: (0.010.06)]. Conversely, genetic relationships were very close between the Tai and populations from southern origin or an indigenous origin hypothesis. Simulation-based ABC analyses were also used to distinguish the southern origin hypothesis from the indigenous origin hypothesis. The results indicate that the posterior probability of the southern origin hypothesis [0.640, 95%CI: (0.5240.757)] is greater than that of the indigenous origin hypothesis [0.324, 95%CI: (0.2110.438)]. Therefore, we propose that the genetic evidence does not support the hypothesis of northern origin. Our genetic data indicate that the southern origin hypothesis has higher probability than the other two hypotheses statistically, suggesting that the Tai people most likely originated from southern China.

Thank you for your reply and reading.

Konjianghai

 

Genetic studies, if they are carried out properly by capable people, would probably influence the controversy more than anything else.

When I have more time I will study the material in the links you provided.

Incidentally, I'm a graphic artist, not an academic; but I have spent most of my adult life in Chiang Mai. I have an abiding interest in the history, and a love for the traditions and culture of the Kohn Muang among whom I live and have a family.

Many thanks for the information you have provided.  I can assure you that it is much appreciated.

Everything these people do is done for a reason...

and for some reason they're not trying to keep a low-profile at present.

Would you be more specific, please.

Does the work you want done require woodcarving, or is it cabinetwork?

Or something else?

The original homeland of Daic people or Tai-Kadai speakers is in Guangxi and Guangdong in south eastern China. Note that not all Tai-Kadai speakers are of Tai-Kadai ethnic since some ethnic do live among the Tai-Kadai speakers there for the infuences is high. To anyone who is interested on this might want to search up on the internet for more informations, please look up at Daic/Tai-Kadai/Zhuang/BaiYue or hundred Yue. You should make connections with these. And if you want to look up further you will come across with Liangzhu culture.
Hope this help.

Linguistic studies would suggest China as the original homeland of the T'ai people, and there is no hard evidence to prove otherwise.

Before the 6th century BC when the Chinese first recorded their existence, all is conjecture.  Nobody knows.

The proto-history of Southeast Asian races is very well summed-up in D.G.E.Hall's  A History of South-East Asia [St. Martin's Press].

According to Hall, the theory that the T'ai originally came from Central Asia was put forward by westerners in the 19th century, based on racial similarities with other Central Asian peoples and native Americans, who are believed to have originated there as well.

That seems to be the most plausible explanation; at least until compelling evidence turns up to contradict it.

Thanks for your reply.

Sorry, but I don't recall seeing any references to the Tai people as having Altaic origins, nor are there any lingustic connections between the Tai languages and the Altaic languages. The Altaic groups form a broad northern arch from Turkey (relatively recent nomadic migrants into present day Turkey) up and over northern Asia and then back down into Korea and Japan.

There are several theories about the origins of the T'ai race.

Central Asia seems to be favored over places like Vietnam and Polynesia.

I really don't know myself.  I'm just repeating what most historians have written since the 19th century. If there have been any recent discoveries to challenge that view I would be interested in knowing about them because it is a subject that interests me.

Thanks for your input.