CMHomeboy78

This is actually a two-part topic: [A] Where in Chiang Mai to find good selections of wine?... and Vineyards in Northern Thailand.

My brother is coming for a visit soon. He likes his vino and is quite knowledgeable about it as well. He seems to favor certain kinds from Chile and Australia, as well as the familiar European and California wines.

The selection in Rim Ping near the iron bridge looks good, and it's close to where we live. Where else in town could be recommended?

Topic B: Vineyards in Northern Thailand that welcome visitors.

Any information at all would be appreciated; as well as evaluations of specific vintages. I drink wine myself occasionally and usually enjoy it, but I'm far from being knowledgeable about it.

Frankly, I've never tasted a Thai wine that I've really liked. Maybe someone could recommend a good one, and a vineyard that would be enjoyable to visit.

Thanks for any help.

For some, it's a cleaning out of the Augean Stables... for others, it's another step toward the gentrification of the farang community here.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I tend to favor letting things stay as they are. Chiang Mai has always been a haven for rogues, but we've avoided getting the worst of the worst like Bangkok, Pattaya, and Phuket.

Let the authorities zero-in on the real, dangerous criminals and leave the marginal types alone as long as they're not causing serious trouble.

Sounds like you are sending them an invitation to move to Chiang Mai.

Those types don't wait for an invitation... they come uninvited.

Where I come from "right" means Ok. Not cryptic at all.

Perhaps you should be looking for the anti paranoia amulet section as well.

Is this how you respond to folks trying to help you? Good luck with your search.

Try the library.

Sorry for the misunderstanding... my mistake.

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=3857

Near the entrance to Lotus and Kam Tieng flower market there is a fairly large amulet market.

Thanks for that link to the Citylife article.

The Kamtieng market is definitely a place I'll check out. I was there once a few years ago, but at that time my interest in phalluses had yet to develop fully. The article has the useful information that it's open on Thursday, from 7AM to 2PM.

I'm interested in phallic amulets as folk art objects, and the beliefs and practices connected with them as part of the traditional ways of life here.

Right.

Your one-word reply was rather cryptic.

What other possible interests or uses could I have for phallic amulets?

northerndolly gave you a "like" so maybe he has found some creative uses for them as well.

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=3857

Near the entrance to Lotus and Kam Tieng flower market there is a fairly large amulet market.

Thanks for that link to the Citylife article.

The Kamtieng market is definitely a place I'll check out. I was there once a few years ago, but at that time my interest in phalluses had yet to develop fully. The article has the useful information that it's open on Thursday, from 7AM to 2PM.

I'm interested in phallic amulets as folk art objects, and the beliefs and practices connected with them as part of the traditional ways of life here.

i changed to islam some years ago and promised all these virgins what can i do with them at old age? also what about all irate wives there to? cheers

There's been a misprint in that book. The correct "reward" is seventy two Virginians -- foul-smelling toothless hillbillies, each and every one of them.

T

Sandra Bullock

Rob Lowe

Donna Dixon

Warren Beatty

Folks from Virginia.

Thanks for standing up for Virginia.

My great-grandfather was one of Mosby's Rangers. He wasn't toothless, but he did live with a Yankee bullet in his back until the day he died at the age of seventy-three in 1912.

Maybe I'm his reincarnation... a born rebel.

Ralph Fitch the English adventurer who was the first farang on record to visit Chiang Mai in 1587, records in detail the practice of inserting metal balls into the penis - essentially penile implants. This seems to have been done for sexual gratification only; because he writes "the women doe desire them." Also, possibly as a way for the men to try to maintain dominance over their wives and mia nois'... on the principal that there is nothing like a good shagging to keep a woman in her place.

Fitch doesn't say anything about phallic amulets; but they are known to have existed in his time, and long before.

The subject has always interested me; and the following is a summary of what I've learned about them over the years. Additional information or anecdotes would be most welcome.

Visitors to Chiang Mai's amulet markets couldn't fail to notice the phallic amulets [palad khik] of various shapes and sizes. Made from a variety of materials, but usually wood, stone, ivory, horn, or bone. Those made from the wood of a coffin are believed to embody special powers.

It seems reasonable to assume that their use derived originally from Shiva worship in remote times, and the palad khik are related to the lingam of that Hindu God.

Historically, according to Philip Rawson [Primitive Erotic Art. London 1973], "evil spirits could be repelled by both men and women exposing their genitals to them." This relates to the Thai belief that malevolent spirits are driven away by the sight of sexual or 'immoral" objects. Rawson continues: "Phallic amulets were conceived to carry great power for good, averting disease, the evil eye, and all other supernatural disasters."

The palad khik, though often defined as a Buddhist amulet by the Thais, is never worn above the waist, because being of a sexual nature, it is considered somewhat base. Thus, it is not worn around the neck, a part of the body commanding a much higher degree of respect, and reserved for more revered amulets.

The Thai scholar Phya Anuman [Essays on Thai Folklore. Bangkok 1968] says that there is no traditional definition for the word "khik"; but the word "palad" means honored deputy or honored substitute. The term "Shiva Lung" also occasionally heard, is not applicable; it refers to the large phalluses , usually wooden, used in various forms of spirit worship, in shrines by rivers, lakes, and klongs to propitiate water spirits, and in field shrines to encourage fertility and a bountiful harvest.

The current belief held by many educated urban Thais that the wearing of the palad khik is a village practice which is rapidly disappearing is incorrect. Not only does the practice persist, but it flourishes.

The original, basic palad khik has taken on many more functions than merely protection, and has evolved into numerous forms, almost becoming a folk art.

The four predominate types are:

1. The simple erect penis with the glans well defined. Having no testicles.

2. The same basic shape with legs added; generally just the two hind legs, but sometimes all four.

3. The spread-eagle woman type; with the woman lying on her back atop the palad khik with legs spread apart.

4. The monkey-rider. This type takes two forms, [a] the monkey lies atop the palad khik clasping it, and the monkey sits erect like a jockey.

If any members have seen really good examples of the more ornate types for sale in or around Chiang Mai, I would appreciate knowing where.

Thanks for any information.

A book on this subject that could be highly recommended is, Old Souls: The Scientific Evidence for Reincarnation. By Tom Shroder [simon&Schuster 1999].

Shroder, an editor at the Washington Post travelled extensively with Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia who conducted past life and reincarnation research in Lebanon, India, and the American South.

Much of what has been written about reincarnation has been sensationalized and milked for its commercial value. The Bridey Murphy case is a prime example.

This book is an exception.

Your project sounds interesting. I would gladly give you any advice that I could. My background may or may not be relevant to the kind of book you are working on.

I do consider myself "...familiar with Thailand and its culture" having spent most of my adult life here.

Arriving in 1978, I have lived in Bangkok, Pattaya, and Ban Chang on the gulf coast. After going to Chiang Mai with a film crew in 1979 to play a small part in a Thai movie; I returned and settled down - more or less... eventually marrying and becoming the head of a household.

As a graphic artist I take a keen interest in the traditions, culture, and history of the country, especially the north.

What may be related to your book is my ongoing study of the ways farangs [westerners] have influenced and changed Thailand since the early 16th century until the present day. Both for the better and for the worse.

I arrived at a time when the scene here could be described as something like the Wild West. Many areas in the north and northeast were controlled by communist insurgents. The resident farangs were a diverse lot. Many of them reprobates, living it up with no visible means of support. People like Charles Sobhraj and Ajay Chowdury were the avant garde of todays Russian mafia, African con-artists, and other disreputables who infest certain areas of Bangkok, Pattaya, and Phuket.

The major demographic change I've seen in Chiang Mai has been the massive influx of retirees. It has become an elephant's burial ground to rival South Florida. Their presence here in such large numbers has created an atmosphere not unlike a suburban housing development in the US. Law-abiding, opinionated people who have all the answers. They did their travelling too late in life. They should have seen the world with young eyes.

That said, there is still a good deal of diversity here. It's a great place to live, with a lot going for it.

If you think that I could be of any help, send me a PM and I'll do what I can.

Good luck with the success of your book.

A lot of this seems to be a case of the elderly being envious of people having fun.

It's the best nightlife area in town.

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C'mon Winnie, you're old enough to remember Randy Newman...

"Mama told me not to come, Mama told me not to come - that ain't no way to have fun, son".

I just came across this a few days ago and thought it might be of interest to you:

Lawa Guardian Spirits of Chiang Mai.

By Krisri Nimmanhaeminda.

Journal of the Siam Society. Vol. 55. 1967. PDF file.

The annual festival at Wat Doi Kham was referred to in post #8, with a link to a recent CityNews CM article with some excellent photos.

This legend was vaguely familiar to me, but the JSS account provides a wealth of additional information and details that include traditional stories about Queen Chamadevi of Haripunchai [Lamphun], and King Mengrai of Chiang Mai, and their relations with the Lawa.

According to folklore, Pu Sae, Ya Sae, and their son Sudeva Rikshi were Lawas with a propensity for cannibalism, until they met the Buddha on his visit to this area, near what is now Mae Rim.

After trying to make a meal of him, the trio were converted to Buddhism, and the son, Sudeva, became a monk living on the mountain that now bears his name: Doi Suthep.

The legend has it that from this time onward the Lawa people gave up cannibalism and began to be assimilated; first with the Mon to the south - with whom they are distantly related - then with the Thai, who later started coming down from the north.

The father, the mother, and the son, as a trinity of spirits have been venerated by both Thais and Lawas ever since.

People with a bias against animism often point out that they are given propitiatory offerings out of fear that they might revert to cannibalism. No doubt there is some truth in that; done on the principal that it's a good idea to cover all the bases.

It's all a part of what Chiang Mai has been, and still is.

The JSS article was full of interesting information. Combined with the photographs in the CityNews piece linked by mamborobert it makes an excellent reference for this subject that we thank you both for.

Is this legend the only one that says the Lawas practiced cannibalism at one time?

Yes, I think it is. I'm not aware of any other legends that mention it in connection with the Lawas.

As you may know, headhunting and cannibalism was practiced until fairly recent times by some tribes and ethnic groups in Upper Burma - the Naga; Wa; and Lolos among a few others.

According to most accounts it was part of a ritual where the heads of enemies were kept as trophies, and the heart, liver, testicles, etc. were devoured in ceremonies to celebrate victory.

It was a rough neighbourhood.

I just came across this a few days ago and thought it might be of interest to you:

Lawa Guardian Spirits of Chiang Mai.

By Krisri Nimmanhaeminda.

Journal of the Siam Society. Vol. 55. 1967. PDF file.

The annual festival at Wat Doi Kham was referred to in post #8, with a link to a recent CityNews CM article with some excellent photos.

This legend was vaguely familiar to me, but the JSS account provides a wealth of additional information and details that include traditional stories about Queen Chamadevi of Haripunchai [Lamphun], and King Mengrai of Chiang Mai, and their relations with the Lawa.

According to folklore, Pu Sae, Ya Sae, and their son Sudeva Rikshi were Lawas with a propensity for cannibalism, until they met the Buddha on his visit to this area, near what is now Mae Rim.

After trying to make a meal of him, the trio were converted to Buddhism, and the son, Sudeva, became a monk living on the mountain that now bears his name: Doi Suthep.

The legend has it that from this time onward the Lawa people gave up cannibalism and began to be assimilated; first with the Mon to the south - with whom they are distantly related - then with the Thai, who later started coming down from the north.

The father, the mother, and the son, as a trinity of spirits have been venerated by both Thais and Lawas ever since.

People with a bias against animism often point out that they are given propitiatory offerings out of fear that they might revert to cannibalism. No doubt there is some truth in that; done on the principal that it's a good idea to cover all the bases.

It's all a part of what Chiang Mai has been, and still is.

This probably has more to do with Cambodian migrant workers than either side is saying.

^ Could he be describing the old city hall building?

1876 is well into the modern era for Chiang Mai, after resettlement. So you won't expect any wholesale destruction since?

I think not. Several accounts that I've read from the 1890s and later say that Chao Kawilorot's residence [the one that was visited by Hallett] was demolished.

His successor, Chao Witchaynon, lived somewhere else... I'm not sure where. Possibly on the site that was to become the jail. I think that was once a royal residence of some kind as well.

Yes to be avoided ! ... unless you want to go to the best art supply shop, pick up some fresh baked bread (un pub), eat some hand cut fries with cold beer, (euro diner) ......

Excellent point.

The good, the bad, and the ugly all on one street. A microcosm of Chiang Mai itself.

Another point that could be made is that it was one of the main avenues leading to Chiang Mai's Sanam Luang, the heart of the old city, that is no more.

Would that be the old government offices in the Three Kings Monument area? Or where the old jail is? Out of curiosity, what is it that is no more?

Yes, that's the area.

You ask "...what is it that is no more?" Just about everything, with the exception of the old chedi at Yupharat School which was the residence of the Chao Yupharat. That and some other remains of wats are all that is left of what was once the royal administrative center of Chiang Mai.

The residence of the Chao Luang was visited in 1876 by the British railway surveyor, Holt Hallett. His description of the building is not without interest: "Passing from the outer into the inner town, we continued along the main road until we came to the enclosure wall of the palace grounds. The gate of the palace lies 1140 yards from the entrance of the inner town, and leads into an extensive court containing several buildings. The palace faces the gate, and is a substantial one-storied building, slightly Chinese in aspect, with brick walls, plastered over with an excellent cement, and a tiled roof.

Ascending a flight of steps, paved with black tiles, we entered the audience-hall, which occupied the whole front of the building. The floor of the hall is inlaid with various woods, several chandeliers hung from the ceiling, and the walls were painted with frescos done with considerable skill, and adorned with long, narrow, gilt-framed mirrors. The remainder of the furniture consisted of a lounge, an easy-chair, a dozen drawing-room chairs, upholstered in green silk, and a small tea-table. Through the doors leading into the private apartments some elegantly designed carved lattice-work partitions were seen, which served as screens to the interior of the palace."

Much more about the old city is in his book, A Thousand Miles on an Elephant in the Shan States [reprint, White Lotus 1988]. The American missionaries resident in Chiang Mai during the latter half of the 19th century also left some interesting accounts of the Sanam Luang and the royal residences as well.

As late as the 1970s there were some very old Kohn Muang who had vague memories...possibly things they had heard as children... about old Chiang Mai.

I avoid the whole area, as it seems to be Chiang Mai's epicenter of circus pants, body odor, ugly tattoos, and warm beer. Whenever I meet a farang, who has been (or claims to have been) a victim of a burglary or other rip-off; they are usually staying within 500 meters of that street. I've seen rats that were bigger than the family dachshund over there. No thanks.....

Yes to be avoided ! ... unless you want to go to the best art supply shop, pick up some fresh baked bread (un pub), eat some hand cut fries with cold beer, (euro diner) ......

Excellent point.

The good, the bad, and the ugly all on one street. A microcosm of Chiang Mai itself.

Another point that could be made is that it was one of the main avenues leading to Chiang Mai's Sanam Luang, the heart of the old city, that is no more.

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My first experience with extortion masquerading as law-enforcement came as a child in the 1950s travelling with my family from New England to Florida.

In those days, before the Interstate highway system was completed, main roads south passed through or near little towns in the Carolinas and Georgia.

The redneck sheriffs in many of those places would set up speed-traps with absurdly low limits - often 30 MPH.

The potential for "revenue enhancement" soon became obvious, and the deplorable practice quickly spread to other states. The introduction of seatbelt and motorcycle helmet laws in the '60s really got the gravy-train rolling.

This is one of the many things I was glad to leave behind long ago.

Now it has come to Chiang Mai along with the kind of people who so willingly bend over backward to justify it.

...........(SNIP for Brevity)......... Now it has come to Chiang Mai along with the kind of people who so willingly bend over backward to justify it.

Could you be so kind as to link to a post that tries to justify it?

Frankly, I haven't been able to find one. I see several that say 'learn to live with it,' several that say 'I'm not going to comply. I'd rather break the law and then whinge about it when I get caught,' but none that say it's right, it's OK, or that it's even needed. Please, which one is the justification post?

The peevish tone of your post suggests frustration at not being able to challenge any of the points I made other than the casual parting shot that obviously hit home in your case.

That many farangs, and even many "leun-mai" Thais, will support the most egregious official misconduct and enforce Mickey Mouse laws in the name of "law and order" or "security" is self-evident; and I don't have to cite specific posts to prove that point. I also meant people among the larger expat community as well, and not just TV posters, although they are numerous enough among the members here.

The attraction that Chiang Mai has for many people is that it seems to be in that blessed period between too little state control, and the nightmare of too much.

That's one of the many things I've always liked about it.

My first experience with extortion masquerading as law-enforcement came as a child in the 1950s travelling with my family from New England to Florida.

In those days, before the Interstate highway system was completed, main roads south passed through or near little towns in the Carolinas and Georgia.

The redneck sheriffs in many of those places would set up speed-traps with absurdly low limits - often 30 MPH.

The potential for "revenue enhancement" soon became obvious, and the deplorable practice quickly spread to other states. The introduction of seatbelt and motorcycle helmet laws in the '60s really got the gravy-train rolling.

This is one of the many things I was glad to leave behind long ago.

Now it has come to Chiang Mai along with the kind of people who so willingly bend over backward to justify it.

Did Prince Mahidol really belong to one of the "aristocratic families of Chiang Mai" ?

If so, can you tell me what the connection was?

Alert as ever... I think you've caught me out on that one.

Prince Mahidol probably didn't have any connection at all to the chaos of Chiang Mai. But I don't think I'm mistaken in linking him to The Prince Royal's College. As a matter of fact, I'm almost sure that he was the prince that the college was named after.

He was, in all probability, descended from the kings of the Chakri Dynasty.

Sorry for that bit of misinformation; and thanks for pointing it out.

Well he did have some connection

One of the first things he did when he returned was to set up scholarships for students in the fields of medicine, nursing, and public health. He was planning to return to Siriraj Hospital for internship. However, his princely status then became a problem as it was felt that he was too prestigious to be allowed internship. Undeterred, Mahidol chose another hospital in a more egalitarian environment – the missionary-run McCormick Hospital in Chiang Mai. He worked there, day and night, as a resident doctor. His patients fondly called him "Mho Chao Fa" ('Doctor Prince').

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahidol_Adulyadej

Thanks for your input, but I think you've misunderstood.

By "connection" I meant blood relation to the ruling families of Chiang Mai.

It's not impossible that Prince Mahidol had some collateral relationship to the Chiang Mai chaos.

Dara Rasami wasn't the first Chiang Mai Princess to be a consort of a Chakri king. There were earlier ones who could very well have been ancestors of Prince Mahidol.

I just don't know.

Did Prince Mahidol really belong to one of the "aristocratic families of Chiang Mai" ?

If so, can you tell me what the connection was?

Alert as ever... I think you've caught me out on that one.

Prince Mahidol probably didn't have any connection at all to the chaos of Chiang Mai. But I don't think I'm mistaken in linking him to The Prince Royal's College. As a matter of fact, I'm almost sure that he was the prince that the college was named after.

He was, in all probability, descended from the kings of the Chakri Dynasty.

Sorry for that bit of misinformation; and thanks for pointing it out.