CMHomeboy78

 

 

northernjohn might have confused leukemia with leprosy, but the point he was making was valid, and relevant to the subject of his post.  If I understand him correctly it is the distinction between what the missionaries have done in the past and what they are doing now.

 

Chiang Mai has a number of schools and hospitals founded by missionaries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that are still thriving - although for the most part now run by Thais.

The McKean Institute is a good example. Founded in 1908 by the missionary Dr.James McKean [1860-1949], it became world famous for its innovative treatment of leprosy and the establishment of a community near Chiang Mai where the lepers could live and develop skills to do craftwork.  Before that, many of them lived under the old Saphan Nawarat.

Many other examples could be given of what missionaries have done in the past.  I've read numerous first-person accounts with interest.

What many people would like to know is what they are doing now in addition to evangelizing.

 

 

Thank you for your information. I was unaware of the schools they had started. Are these schools that are still in operation still Christian? I know there are some around but not that familiar with them as I do not have any kids in school here. At one time considered trying to find one for a mentally challenged nephew of the wife but had no idea of where to even start the search at the time.

 

Dara Academy.

Sacred Heart.

Regina Coeli.

Monfort College.

The Prince Royal's College.

Chiang Mai Christian - near the old church across Nawarat Bridge.

There are others as well that I can't think of at the moment.

The Rev Daniel McGilvary and his wife started teaching and dispensing medicine as soon as they arrived in 1867.  His book, A Half Century Among the Siamese and Lao [reprint White Lotus 2002] tells the story in full.

@northernjohn

 

I didn't ask the Jehovah's Witness people how they support themselves. It's none of my business and I couldn't care less. There are a lot of them in Bangkok; both Thai and farang. I'm not interested in them at all. I can't answer your questions. You can contact the organization directly at their Bangkok headquarters.

 

McCormick Hospital has nothing to do with it. Anyone can be treated there and there are plenty of Buddhists (probably 60-70% of the patients) and everyone pays the same.

 

What on earth is a leukemia colony??? Do you really think leukemia is contagious?

northernjohn might have confused leukemia with leprosy, but the point he was making was valid, and relevant to the subject of his post.  If I understand him correctly it is the distinction between what the missionaries have done in the past and what they are doing now.

Chiang Mai has a number of schools and hospitals founded by missionaries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that are still thriving - although for the most part now run by Thais.

The McKean Institute is a good example. Founded in 1908 by the missionary Dr.James McKean [1860-1949], it became world famous for its innovative treatment of leprosy and the establishment of a community near Chiang Mai where the lepers could live and develop skills to do craftwork.  Before that, many of them lived under the old Saphan Nawarat.

Many other examples could be given of what missionaries have done in the past.  I've read numerous first-person accounts with interest.

What many people would like to know is what they are doing now in addition to evangelizing.

 

I liked the part where you mentioned their most successful method of proselyltizing was what they called "Flirty Fishing" by the young female members of the sect.  This entailed the use of sexual attraction and intercourse to gain converts.

 

I would let them convert me at least once a week.

 

I crossed paths with the Children of God in Hong Kong 30 years ago, when I was in my 20s.

 

A friend and I met two attractive HK Chinese girls, on the street, from what I remember, invited them for a drink and dinner, then took them home to our respective flats. They did not mention religion and the Children of God were unknown at that time, at least in HK. We were all just kids in our 20s, it seemed like normal fun.

 

She assured me she was on the pill, and we had sex (this was pre-AIDS). But at the moment of truth, if you get my drift, she yelled out, "Thank you, Jesus!" I said, erm, what? She then told me about the Children of God, and to my horror, explained that it would be up to Jesus whether we had created a new life.

 

I humored her through a highly stressful month and thank the gods she did not get pregnant. But the scandal broke soon afterwards, and I learned how close I'd come to disaster. The aim was/is not only to "create" new cult members, but to pull the fathers in through a sense of guilt and responsibility as well.

 

Of course from that point on I returned to the straight and narrow and never had unprotected sex with strange women again (cough).

 

 

 

 

Thanks for relating that very interesting experience with the Children of God in HK - yes, I know they've changed their name and reorganized several times, but as the old Thai proverb has it:  "A snake that sheds its skin is still a snake."

Your story is exactly the type that I was hoping to elicit from members who had lived in Chiang Mai in the 1980s when the COG were active here.  My own experience of them is quite limited.  Around the time they appeared in Chiang Mai, my young wife had recently given birth to our first daughter and was expecting our second.  So I wasn't really interested in what they had on offer.  Although a few years earlier I probably would have been.

Thanks again for your response.

 

The strip is still intact, In fact i understand the Military still use it sometimes, Bill did develop the site sort of, but the Hmong General whoa name escapes me at the moment also had a big hand in it as he had a large contingent based there in the Mountains.

 

I flew Caribou, Porter, and Beech Baron in 1969./ 70 + ,   

 

I also understand there is a tour company in Vientiane who go there, but stuffed if I can find out who,  on the Google Map now but no closeups !

Hmong General... Vang Pao?

I've never been to Long Tieng, but I'd like to go and see what remains of it.

During the war it had a population of almost 50,000 making it the second largest city in Laos, but it was never marked on any map.

Its mile-long asphalt all-weather airstrip had more traffic than Chicago's O'Hare... That's what I heard from ex-USAF guys that I knew when I first came here.

Did you know Bill Young?  He picked the location and developed it, didn't he?

Wasn't Bill Young  aka  "Hitman" Bill Young... "AirAmerica Bill" Young a son of Harold Young, the founder of the zoo?

If so, did he have any connection with it, or play a part in its development?

Yes, that's right.

Bill Young was the son of Harold Mason Young and the grandson [and namesake] of William Marcus Young, the Jawaw of the Lahu tribe.

I don't know the extent of his involvement with the Chiang Mai Zoo.  I haven't been able to find much information, other than that he was once a "curator"... whatever that means.

I would guess that his other activities didn't leave him much time for the zoo.

Welcome to the forum. If you would provide some information about yourself, such as your age and what you are interested in, then maybe you would get some feedback. Good luck in Chiang Mai.

Shame the place has been run down so badly.

 

 

There have been changes, that's for sure.

In the late 70s I remember it as being rather basic as zoos go, but a beautiful location and fun to visit.  If you went on a weekday you almost had the place to yourself. You just had to dodge the occasional school group, that's all.

In the 80s and 90s when my daughters were growing up we would go often, but as the variety of animals increased over the years, so did the number of visitors, and the level of commercialism became annoying.  It wasn't so much fun anymore.

A zoo that I really like is the one outside Jakarta, located in a lush and hilly area that the Dutch had developed as a botanical garden.  Also, it has big habitats for Komodo Dragons and Sumatran Tigers.

Great place.  Go for a visit if you're ever in Jakarta.

 

 

Did they ask for a passport?

That's a good question.

An even better question is whether or not foreigners are required by law to carry their passports.

I've posted this before but it bears repeating...  I started a topic on this subject a while ago, but nobody could cite a specific law.  I don't think one exists.

I do know that in the mid-90s a crusading zealot named Purachai, who had recently been appointed to a high position in the national police stated unequivocally in a long interview in the #1 English language newspaper that all foreigners must carry their passports at all times - photocopies were unacceptable because they could be too easily altered.

Many posters have gotten away with showing photocopies and, or, alternative ID... but how long will it be until this too becomes an issue, and another opportunity for extortion masquerading as law enforcement? 

 

 

From the news...

 

'Expats and tourists will not have to carry their passports on them at all times, it was reported today following earlier reports that laws requiring foreigners to do so will soon be strictly enforced.

Police Colonel Voravat Amornvivat, a senior official at the Immigration Bureau’s headquarters in Bangkok, told Thaivisa.com that he wanted to reassure the expat community.

Tourists will not have to carry their original passports and expats can use a Thai driving licence or photocopy of their passport as a form of identification, he was quoted as saying.

“Making all foreigners in Thailand carry their original passports with them would be very difficult,” he said. “It’s about being reasonable and using common sense.”  '

 

Note the line that says 'that laws requiring foreigners to do so ...'  From this, it appears that there are laws requiring foreigners to do so, but that they will not be strictly enforced.  I hope this clears up the issue for you.

 

No, it doesn't clear up the issue.  It's just another high-ranking cop making a pronouncement.

If a law does exist, let us see it.

Did they ask for a passport?

That's a good question.

An even better question is whether or not foreigners are required by law to carry their passports.

I've posted this before but it bears repeating...  I started a topic on this subject a while ago, but nobody could cite a specific law.  I don't think one exists.

I do know that in the mid-90s a crusading zealot named Purachai, who had recently been appointed to a high position in the national police stated unequivocally in a long interview in the #1 English language newspaper that all foreigners must carry their passports at all times - photocopies were unacceptable because they could be too easily altered.

Many posters have gotten away with showing photocopies and, or, alternative ID... but how long will it be until this too becomes an issue, and another opportunity for extortion masquerading as law enforcement? 

Did you hear of the legendary Suthep?
Who apparently founded Lamphun around the year 750; and had his domicile on Doi Suthep- the doi suthep we all see everyday - this is where it got it's name apparently.

You might be interested in this account of how Doi Suthep got its name:

Lawa Guardian Spirits of Chiang Mai. By Krisri Nimmanhaeminda.

Journal of the Siam Society. Vol. 55. 1967. PDF file.

This legend was vaguely familiar to me, but the JSS article provides a wealth of information and details that include traditional stories about Queen Chamadevi of Haripunchai [Lamphun], and King Mengrai of Chiang Mai, and their relations with the Lawa who pre-dated the T'ai in this area.

According to folklore, Pu Sae, Ya Sae, and their son Sudeva Rikshi were Lawas with a propensity for cannibalism until they met the Buddha near what is now Mae Rim.  After trying to make a meal of him, they were converted to Buddhism, and their son Sudeva became a monk living on the mountain that now bears his name, Doi Suthep.

The legend has it that from that time onward the Lawa people gave up cannibalism and began to be assimilated ; first with the Mons to the south - with whom they are distantly related - then with the T'ai, who later started coming down from the north.

The father, the mother, and the son, as a trinity of spirits have been venerated by both T'ais and Lawas ever since.  There is an annual festival at Wat Doi Kham that includes the sacrifice of a Kwai. People with a bias against animism often point out that they are given propitiatory offerings out of fear that they might revert to cannibalism. No doubt there is some truth in that; done on the principal that it's a good idea to cover all the bases.

It's all part of what Chiang Mai and Lanna T'ai have been, and still are.

 

Really good book this.
From prehistory ; home erectus population up to a million years ago through to moving to agriculture rather than hunting and gathering (12-6000 bc) to the start of metal age 600bc. Good read. Only just at the beginning.
Recommend you go and pick up a copy.
ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1406824733.387600.jpg

Will you please tell me where in Chiang Mai you bought this book.

 

Suriwongs might have it, they often do.

Otherwise, go direct to the publisher:  Silkworm Books.  6 Sukkasem,  T. Suthep.  It's on a soi off Nimblehymen...easy to find, courteous and efficient people to deal with, and everything seems to be in stock.

 

 

Not sure if you guys can zoom in to see the back chat. Just about to read this. Personally I am interested in the minds of the people / us humans as well as the battles, migrations and states they/ we have built. ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1406789796.167585.jpgImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1406789830.951817.jpg

I share your interest... regardless of the fact that most of what is written about it sounds like the work of unbalanced people.  There are exceptions however, notably Carl Jung and Mircea Eliade.

Clearly defined origin and migration myths would be a great help in determining where the T'ai race came from. If they ever existed as oral transmission or in written form they haven't been preserved.

The Chinese chronicles referred to the Nanchao T'ai as barbarians, but little meaning should be attached to this expression. They called all foreigners barbarians down to a very recent date, and doubtless the term is not even yet obsolete.

The Chinese themselves don't have migration myths, and perhaps for similar reasons - a preoccupation with who they are and where they are.

According to Eliade many traditional societies share common outlines in their mythical geographies. In the middle of the known world is the sacred Center, the Omphalos/Axis Mundi/Sadu-Muang.  This Center anchors the established order; around the sacred Center lies the known world, the realm of order; and beyond the known world is a chaotic and dangerous realm peopled by ghosts, demons, and foreigners.

For whatever reasons, the T'ai people have no myths or legends of a homeland that they left in the distant past.

 

 

 

The original homeland of Daic people or Tai-Kadai speakers is in Guangxi and Guangdong in south eastern China. Note that not all Tai-Kadai speakers are of Tai-Kadai ethnic since some ethnic do live among the Tai-Kadai speakers there for the infuences is high. To anyone who is interested on this might want to search up on the internet for more informations, please look up at Daic/Tai-Kadai/Zhuang/BaiYue or hundred Yue. You should make connections with these. And if you want to look up further you will come across with Liangzhu culture.
Hope this help.

Linguistic studies would suggest China as the original homeland of the T'ai people, and there is no hard evidence to prove otherwise.

Before the 6th century BC when the Chinese first recorded their existence, all is conjecture.  Nobody knows.

The proto-history of Southeast Asian races is very well summed-up in D.G.E.Hall's  A History of South-East Asia [St. Martin's Press].

According to Hall, the theory that the T'ai originally came from Central Asia was put forward by westerners in the 19th century, based on racial similarities with other Central Asian peoples and native Americans, who are believed to have originated there as well.

That seems to be the most plausible explanation; at least until compelling evidence turns up to contradict it.

Thanks for your reply.

 

 

 

 

Dr James Chamberlain (Tai Linguistics) cites linguistic evidence that the T'ai originated in Northern Vietnam.

 

Do Thai schools still teach that the Thai originated in the Nan Chao Kingdom of Yunnan Province?

 

 

 

The place of origin of the T'ai race is a vexed question.

The accuracy of linguistic and even genetic studies of people in the very remote past can be legitimately doubted.

Closer to our own time and more amenable to study is the Nanchao kingdom in what is now Yunnan.

That it had a majority T'ai population is, I believe, generally accepted by most historians based on the plausible evidence of the Chinese chronicles that first mention them as early as the 6th century BC, and frequently thereafter.  Also there is a large number of T'ai speakers in Yunnan to this day.

I don't really know what the Thai schools teach.  But it would be hard to imagine that their history lessons are much worse or less inspiring than the ones in the US.

As usual, almost everything I've read in this and similar threads is fascinating. 

It's always good to hear from others with similar interests.

I grew up north of New York City near the Hudson Highlands, an area that played a key role during the Revolution.  History and the remains of it were a living presence, and I took a great interest in it, even as a child.

I feel the same way about Chiang Mai and Lanna T'ai. History is a living presence here also... as Faulkner said  "The past is never dead, it's not even past."

All the best.

 

 

 

What about native Americans?  Is it still believed that they originated in Central Asia, or has there been some doubt cast upon that as well?

 

On the contrary, there is some newer tantalizing linguistic evidence in the proposed Dene-Yeniseian language group.

 

 

What is the consensus of informed opinion now? ...that native Americans originated in Central Asia and that the T'ai race originated somewhere in South China?

 

 

 

I believe that would be the consensus opinion but not a unanimous opinion.

 

The reason I ask is because I'm putting together a series of short articles on Chiang Mai and Lanna T'ai history and I don't want to quote out-of-date theories.

Maybe the most accurate thing to say would be that the classification of the T'ai race as Altaic has been challenged by recent linguistic and genetic studies.

Thanks for sharing what you know about this.

 

 

What about native Americans?  Is it still believed that they originated in Central Asia, or has there been some doubt cast upon that as well?

 

On the contrary, there is some newer tantalizing linguistic evidence in the proposed Dene-Yeniseian language group.

 

 

What is the consensus of informed opinion now? ...that native Americans originated in Central Asia and that the T'ai race originated somewhere in South China?

 

Why did she marry into a family like that in the first place?

Beautiful girl, and she looks intelligent too...

Some good blades are available here, some aren't.

Sometimes you can get what you want, and then they will disappear from the stores for months or years at a time. Don't take anything for granted, if in doubt, bring your own.

I use Gilette Trac II blades myself, and I have occasionally seen them on sale here, but I always bring them with me when I return from Farangland.

You didn't ask about shaving cream, but I'll volunteer a little information in case you don't know already: The Big C house brand is both good and inexpensive at 69 baht for a small can that lasts me almost two months.

Happy shaving!

The military let her go for a reason... but what that reason is, is hard to guess.

The reason is she is still extremely popular. Not only with fellow citizens but internationally too.

Yes, she is "La fille du regiment" among the officer corps in Bangkok.

I agree , it's all very interesting.

But as has been said the early stuff is mostly guess work.
Even the genetic studies can be influenced by migrations of people in to pre existing communities rather than those later communities coming from x location.

Take the recent work on the current Jewish population of Isreal. Apparently they are genetically closer to European and Middle Eastern; and the Palestinians are closer genetically to what were the original Jewish people of that areas.
This is work carried out by an Israeli Jew in a association with Stanford University in the US I think it was; saw it in the press recently.
So they are concluding that these Jews are in fact European converts from over the past thousand years or whatever. They are Jewish however so their jeans say they are largely European but they still obviously originated from the original home land of the Jews- their jeans just got blended with Europeans through hundreds of years of inter marriage.

So when studies say because of these linguistic or that genetic trait means these people "came from" x location- it really does not mean that at all; all it means is "x" population has been influenced by "y" population and any thing beyond that with out historical writings as evidence is just plucking ideas out of the air.
Even with historical evidence such as writings - the writings are of course just snippets from one biased / subjective angle.

So all very interesting and I do enjoy hearing these things;
but I don't take it all too literally or as fact.
Just interesting thoughts like the nature of dark matter or what goes on inside black holes. (I recently read that a new theory is that black holes switch to eject matter shortly after they form but we didn't observe this because of the effects of the holes gravity on time. )

What about native Americans?  Is it still believed that they originated in Central Asia, or has there been some doubt cast upon that as well?

Have you tried Baan Twaey? Not sure of the spelling, but it's not really a tourist place. Buyers from around the world buy from there for their stores. All kinds of wood items from furniture to statues. Furniture manufacturer s are there also.

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Ban Tawai... that's the best advice anybody could give you, Choonpon. Go for it!